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The Church Built on Peter
The Integrated Catholic Life ^ | June 29, 2011 | Fr. Roger Landry

Posted on 06/29/2011 5:46:53 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore

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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Interesting. Thanks for posting.


121 posted on 06/30/2011 2:39:52 PM PDT by Jaded (Really? Seriously?)
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To: Cronos
Jesus said to Simon Peter,

So, are you disputing that Jesus who we Christians (as opposed to unitarians) consider God, doesn't mean it when he renames someone?

Are you disputing the words of Jesus?

John 21:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

By what name did Jesus always address Simon (Peter)?

122 posted on 06/30/2011 2:48:29 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Cronos; CynicalBear; Jvette
typical unitarian response is to take something out of context, like the bible and then mould it to fit their philosophy

Why don't you, Old Reggie, explain to Cynical bear how a unitarian uses sola scriptura to prove that Jesus Christ is not God?

On what basis does a unitarian even consider scripture to BE scripture?

unitarians believe in the big ? in the sky

It is completely untrue to suggest I took something out of context when I posted the entire Catechism entry. Keep up the good work.

In the meanwhile idiotic responses such as yours above are worthy of the Photobucket

123 posted on 06/30/2011 2:57:51 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE
One day they will realize that they had no idea what the RCC really believed and it may be said that the RCC itself doesn’t really know what they believe. For sure the RCC isn’t even close to what the original church was under the Apostles.

When you the founding fathers words or their own catechism to refute what they are saying they tend to get personal or attempt to get demeaning also I have found.

124 posted on 06/30/2011 3:20:20 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Iscool; MarkBsnr
James actually was the evident authority in the first church council gathering in Jerusalem.

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

125 posted on 06/30/2011 3:26:35 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: OLD REGGIE
What happened to his "Rockiness"?

You mean his "Pebbliness"? :)

We know that Jesus was a master orator and wordsmith in the tradition (!!!) of rabbis. I think that, in light of many of Christ's teachings and parables being on several levels, Peter was nicknamed small rock in comparison to Jesus being big rock. IOW, Peter is small to Jesus, but is to act in the role of leader when the big and authentic leader has departed (the keys, the keys).

I think that many times people miss all the levels of meaning that Jesus taught to us and the various combinations of copying and translations have taken away some of those meanings or lessened their understandability.

126 posted on 06/30/2011 3:37:27 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos

Jesus probably spoke in Aramaic, although most people in the Roman empire spoke koine Greek also. The point is, the gospel was written in Greek, so when Matthew had a choice of using petra or petros I believe the Holy Spirit made the choice of words.


127 posted on 06/30/2011 3:43:07 PM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: Iscool
Interesting viewpoint. If you actually read the Gospels, you will find that Peter was the foremost amongst the Apostles in the teaching of Jesus and in interaction with Him.

Peter was certainly the most colorful...It could be that Peter was the only one who kept falling off both sides of the fence and he made a good example for Jesus to teach us about...

Or it could be what the Church teaches. Most likely it is. Judas fell off the fence and is treated in appropriate fashion.

You keep saying that Paul was only sent to the Gentiles. Why then, if you examine Paul's life, did he spend most of his time with the Jews? And Peter?

I don't argue with God like you do...

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

You admit again that you believe that Paul is God (and by extension, Jesus is not).

Peter was given the keys, and charged by Jesus to 'feed My sheep'. Nobody else was.

That charge was given to all the Apostles...And then to the disciples, bishops, pastors, etc...

Where? Chapter and verse, please. Where was anyone else given the keys?

And Catholicism is not a religion; we have the Faith handed down from the Apostles which was given to them from Jesus.

Weird statement...Faith comes from Jesus Christ to the individual Christian...Not thru anyone, even the apostles...

This is why we say that you keep telling us that you are not Christian. It is only weird to non Christians. Here is a verse from the Nicene Creed:

"We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

"Apostolic" here means that the Church believes in its origin and beliefs as rooted in the teachings of the Apostles of Jesus. All Christians will accept "Apostolic" to mean that there is continuity in the church's teachings from the apostles throughout history, not just in the first century, or prior to the fourth.

128 posted on 06/30/2011 3:54:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool
Still denying the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit?

Hardly...I'm denying the divinity of your religion's Holy Father, your pope...

Nobody claims divinity of any Pope. But only non Christians deny the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit - which you do on a regular basis, while elevating Paul to the status of God.

129 posted on 06/30/2011 3:55:47 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: CynicalBear
James actually was the evident authority in the first church council gathering in Jerusalem.

James was the bishop of Jersalem. Peter was the leader of the bishops. It is quite plain from Acts 2 onward.

130 posted on 06/30/2011 3:58:06 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos; Iscool
iscool: God baptized them with the Holy Spirit.

err Iscool, perhaps it's new to you but to us Christians, the Holy Spirit is God

Remember that Iscool tells us that he doesn't believe what he believes and that he alternatively finds God to be God the Father only, or else a diune subordinationist modalist God of the Supreme Father and the meek and mild Son, with the Holy Spirit as an inanimate robot messager who wanders around doing God's bidding.

131 posted on 06/30/2011 4:02:55 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
>> James was the bishop of Jersalem. Peter was the leader of the bishops. It is quite plain from Acts 2 onward.<<

Or so thinks the RCC. They also think that a person needs to be subject to the Pope to be saved.

132 posted on 06/30/2011 4:07:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
>> James was the bishop of Jersalem. Peter was the leader of the bishops. It is quite plain from Acts 2 onward.<<

Or so thinks the RCC.

So thinks anyone with understanding of the New Testament.

They also think that a person needs to be subject to the Pope to be saved.

Let us what the truth actually is:

Salvation outside the Church

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Thanks to: http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asphttp://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

If you actually quote the Catechism correctly, you will also be correct.

133 posted on 06/30/2011 4:48:05 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

So it’s not just Jesus death and resurrection and belief in Him that saves but the RCC also. Got it. I guess the scripture that says “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house” forgot to mention membership in the RCC.


134 posted on 06/30/2011 4:55:15 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos
Yup and Peter baptised the first gentile nonetheless, God’s spirit is involved irrespective of the baptiser

No one knows that...The scripture says Peter commanded them to get baptized...It does not say Peter baptized them...

135 posted on 06/30/2011 4:55:57 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Nobody claims divinity of any Pope. But only non Christians deny the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit - which you do on a regular basis, while elevating Paul to the status of God.

Then why do you call your popes Holy Father???

136 posted on 06/30/2011 5:02:13 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: CynicalBear
So it’s not just Jesus death and resurrection and belief in Him that saves but the RCC also. Got it. I guess the scripture that says “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house” forgot to mention membership in the RCC.

Odd, I guess that you either did not read or understand my post. The Bible and the Catechism state what they state quite adequately. May I ask in what way I should communicate in order to convey that understanding?

137 posted on 06/30/2011 5:16:19 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool; Cronos
No one knows that...The scripture says Peter commanded them to get baptized...It does not say Peter baptized them...

You are correct. So now you are saying that Peter had the authority to command people to be baptized. Odd. Since Peter was not a disciple of your god Paul, why would you be championing him?

138 posted on 06/30/2011 5:19:13 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool
Then why do you call your popes Holy Father???

St. Paul describes himself as "father" in that he is bringing the Gospel to his spiritual children. He calls himself that several times during his epistles.

139 posted on 06/30/2011 5:27:15 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
Give it up man. The RCC says EVERYTHING needed for salvation is tied to the RCC. The catechism of the RCC so states over and over.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

140 posted on 06/30/2011 5:41:07 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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