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The Church Built on Peter
The Integrated Catholic Life ^ | June 29, 2011 | Fr. Roger Landry

Posted on 06/29/2011 5:46:53 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore

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To: Iscool; baa39
The Holy Father (not the fake one that you guys bow down to) has summoned me long ago...And I am always in His audience...>

Still denying the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit?

81 posted on 06/30/2011 7:08:07 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Former Fetus

Do we or do we not agree that Jesus changed Simon’s name to Kephas/Peter which means rock?

Why did He do so?


82 posted on 06/30/2011 7:21:23 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: JLLH

No one believes the pope to be a substitute for Christ.


83 posted on 06/30/2011 7:23:08 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear

I did not find anything in your link that disputes that Peter was the leader from the very beginning.

I do see where they are defending Christ as THE Rock, which is something all Catholics believe.

The rock is also Peter’s confession, Peter’s faith etc....

None of it contradicts that Peter was whom the Lord chose to lead His church and Scripture supports that truth, when one reads how Peter is the first and the foremost mentioned in nearly all of the NT.

Now that I have read what you posted, maybe you could, in your own words, answer the questions I put to you, without linking to the writings and words of someone else?


84 posted on 06/30/2011 7:46:10 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: johngrace
Load of bunk?

You can try all you want but God Himself made it pretty clear.

Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."

I think Augustine explained it pretty well when he, in later life, realized that even he had been wrong thinking the rock meant Peter.

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable.

You can post huge diatribes and even double post to try to get attention but any idea that contradicts verses like Isaiah 44:8 are in error and fit better with the prophecy that false teachers would arise.

85 posted on 06/30/2011 7:58:30 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Jvette; narses
Yes, Jesus did change Simon's name but not to the bedrock on which the church was founded, but to the small rock that comes from the larger rock. That is not just my interpretation, that is the fact of the Greek words used when the gospel was written.

Why did Jesus do it? I can come up with a handful of suggestions but they are just that, suggestions, guesses... I try to stick to discussing facts and one fact is that Jesus is the "rock of ages cleft for me".

86 posted on 06/30/2011 8:00:23 AM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: Jvette
I’ll answer you as I did in the post above. My words pale in comparison to scripture and Augustine.

You can try all you want but God Himself made it pretty clear.

Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."

I think Augustine explained it pretty well when he, in later life, realized that even he had been wrong thinking the rock meant Peter.

“In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable.”

Augustine, in the above paragraph, pretty clearly states that Peter was NOT the Rock upon which the church is built but Christ is. He goes on to give a pretty exhaustive reasoning if you care to read it but I’ll leave that to you.

87 posted on 06/30/2011 8:05:56 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."

Wow!!

JUST AMAZING !!

So a verse that reads God is a Rock except Our God. Then it is taken of context to prop it up then to eliminate the real meaning of something in time later. The point is the rock can only mean what Psalm 18:31 reads only!

Jesus can not use the word in another context. A word can have several different meanings. So this verse explains everything! Just incredible

So no one not even Jesus can use the word Rock in any other context? really!

Then St Augustine is waxing a deep philosoliphical meaning that has nothing to do with william webster's view. He is taking things out of context . Augustine firmly believed in the Pope. What utter trash research. I own books on the early church fathers. This webster guy is totally out of context. I have a dictionary of early fathers qoutes. They firmly believed in a head of the church.

88 posted on 06/30/2011 8:27:27 AM PDT by johngrace
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To: Former Fetus

Jesus is the cornerstone, no Catholic disputes that.

Protestants dissent from the Church that it is in this passage Christ names Peter as the one to lead His church.

There is no question that Peter is called a rock by Christ, and there is no question that Christ then gives him the keys of the kingdom and the authority to bind and loose.

You said it yourself in your reply. Peter is the small rock that comes from the larger rock and because Christ is the larger rock, the bedrock or cornerstone, He has the authority to give to Peter the keys to the kingdom.

No one believes that Peter is anything other than Christ’s representative after His return to heaven. The Church does not teach anything other than that.

God does not change a name without a purpose. Debate over big rock and little rock only obscures the true debate over God’s purpose in changing Simon’s name to Peter(rock).
It makes no sense other than the fact that God’s intended purpose for Peter was that he, Peter(rock)would lead the Church.


89 posted on 06/30/2011 8:29:46 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Jvette
Peter is the small rock that comes from the larger rock

Glad you agree that Peter is the small rock, because according to Matthew Jesus said He would found His church on the large rock (not on the little one). Even if Jesus had made Peter the leader of the church, you would still have to show me where in Scripture does it say that position was to be handed down through generations. But it doesn't matter, because Jesus founded His church on the petra, on the bedrock, on Himself!

90 posted on 06/30/2011 9:02:43 AM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: Former Fetus

This is a common response from protestants that even if Jesus made Peter the leader of the church where does Scripture say that position is to be handed down.

Scripture does not record the entire history of the church, but we do see in Acts that Peter calls for a replacement for Judas. That is the foundation of Apostolic Succession. Immediately we see Peter taking the lead and we see how men were to be chosen to continue the work of the Apostles.

Throughout the NT we see the Apostles appointing men to lead the churches in their own communities after the Apostles had founded those churches. It makes sense that the tradition would be carried on as each generation died and the next came up.

I disagree that it doesn’t matter. The lack of an authoritative voice in the church matters greatly. Without it myriad churches claim differing creeds results in a scattered and chaotic church, rudderless in the face of attacks by Satan.


91 posted on 06/30/2011 9:27:57 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Jvette
It's amazing how things are taken out of context.

This reminds me of the Atheist writer who thought Mother Theresa did not believe in God. If you read what she was talking about was the presense of God in Prayer at times. Or her presence of the Holy Spirit during deep prayerful travail or as a christian in moments of life. So presence becomes existence of God. Which totally derides the true meaning. I had to really read those quotes. As a christian you understand. But an athiest does not understand.

So goes this misunderstanding view of the early Church fathers. There are nuances and words that appear at first to read maybe like what is trying to be against the head(pope) of the church but is not against. Augustine is talking about priorities and succession of leadership. Not any leadership just go to God by yourself period. We are a a whole church from the beginning.

Christ physically left the world so since he left someone has been in charge in order of leadership for two thousands years which brought the bible plus a continual living witness to the world.

Why did Luke mention this in writing by the Holy Spirit:

ACTS 5:33" When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

LAST LINE AGAIN:

38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is From God, you will NOT be able to Stop these men; you will only find yourselves Fighting AGAINST God.”

We are still here. If not from God this Church would of died like Galamiel pointed out. Two thousand years while every powerful spiritual and natural power wanted to tear it down. Only God defends this Church.

Praise Jesus And Hail Mary!!! AMEN=SO BE IT!!!

92 posted on 06/30/2011 9:29:05 AM PDT by johngrace
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To: CynicalBear

I do not know the context under which Augustine wrote that paragraph as your link did not footnote the writings.

If one reads the entire passage, one will see that Augustine supports Peter as the leader of the Church, chosen by Jesus, and blessed by God.

It is a mistake by the protestant to think that the Church or the pope are considered a rock separate from THE Rock. That I believe is what Augustine is expounding upon in this sermon. It may have been a response to challenges to the authority of the pope, similar to the challenges protestants make today.

I again ask you to speak(in your own words) on your understanding of the significance of Jesus renaming Simon as Petros, and calling him blessed because of the singular revelation given to him by God, that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God.


93 posted on 06/30/2011 9:49:49 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Thanks for original post just so interesting!!


94 posted on 06/30/2011 9:51:46 AM PDT by johngrace
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To: johngrace

Praise Jesus indeed:)

I have often told my non Catholic husband that one must understand the Catholic heart and mind to understand the Catholic faith and practices.

Sadly, many are denied this understanding and have had their hearts hardened to it by others too prideful to admit that they are not whom God chose to lead His church.


95 posted on 06/30/2011 9:55:41 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Salvation; All
Peter’s original name was Simon. Christ Himself gave him the name Cephas or Peter when they first met and later confirmed it. This name change was meant to show both Peter’s rank as leader of the apostles and the outstanding trait of his character — Peter (in Hebrew Kephas) the Rock.

His "always" name was Simon.

John 21:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

What happened to his "Rockiness"?

96 posted on 06/30/2011 10:11:26 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Former Fetus; Jvette
Actually no, FF, the terms used were "you are Petros and on this Petra I..."

now to a person who only knows English this may seem like two different meaning intentions, but that is because English does not have gender assigned to inanimate objects

In other Indo-european languages gender IS assigned to inanimate objects and the Koine greek term for rock is petra, this is not a dimunative

Now, the translator would not give Simeon a girl's name (since Petra is feminine) but would give him the masculine form of Petra which is Petros

And of course Jesus would have spoken this in Aramaic/hebrew. In Aramaic the term for Rock is Cephas which is very clear, Jesus saying "you are Rock and on Rock I will build my Church"

97 posted on 06/30/2011 10:13:58 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Former Fetus; Jvette
Even if one takes the meaning your post proposes of Petra, then it becomes Jesus renaming Simeon to "little rock" and saying on this rock I will build my church -- nonsensical: "you are little rock and on this big rock I will build my church" -- this is triply nonsensical -- first in English, second in Greek (due to the gender change I indicated above) and thirdly as Jesus would have used Aramaic/Hebrew which would have been (in Aramaic at least) Cephas.

If you want, you can dispute on the precise meaning of this, but the words are clear and it's not Little rock arkansas

98 posted on 06/30/2011 10:16:56 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Jvette

Should I assume from your answer that you do not disagree with my last sentence (which addresses the issue at hand: “Jesus founded His church on the petra, on the bedrock, on Himself!”? Next you’ll be showing me where in the NT Peter was treated like the pope is treated today, or where in the NT Peter wore the fancy vestments the pope wears when he celebrates Mass? Never mind, you can have it your way...at Burger King.


99 posted on 06/30/2011 10:17:13 AM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: OLD REGGIE; Salvation
Jesus said to Simon Peter,

So, are you disputing that Jesus who we Christians (as opposed to unitarians) consider God, doesn't mean it when he renames someone?

100 posted on 06/30/2011 10:20:24 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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