Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Polygamy was no Mormon harem, but it tore at marriages and hearts
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | June 29, 2011 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 07/02/2011 6:05:43 PM PDT by Colofornian

(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) I spent some time re-reading the late Richard S. Van Wagoner’s excellent book, “Mormon Polygamy: A History.” The 19th century tales of harems and never-ending teenage-girl hunting were, of course, lies to excite Eastern U.S. readers. Polygamy was a contradictory doctrine, and extremely dysfunctional. Brigham Young once said that he wished it wasn’t a doctrine, but later also raged that those who disbelieved in polygamy — and even monogomous LDS men — were in danger of damnation. And polygamy led to divorce among LDS elite leaders in numbers that would shock today. According to Van Wagoner, more than 50 marriages of LDS leaders ended in divorce in the mid 19th century.

Indeed, two early wives of LDS apostle brothers, Orson and Parley Pratt, gave their husbands the heave-ho for their enthusiastic embrace of polygamy, and penchant for young, teenage brides. And not every faithful LDS elder with a feisty wife was brave enough to try polygamy. Van Wagoner recounts the tale of one husband who abandoned plans to take a plural wife after his wife informed him that she had received a revelation from God directing her to shoot any spare wife who darkened the family doorstep.

As Van Wagoner writes, though, there was a somber paradox to polygamy, particularly for faithful LDS women who reluctantly embraced the doctrine as a commandment of God yet suffered personal heartache and financial pain due to their husband’s extracurricular wives. Emmeline B. Wells, early Mormon women’s leader and feminist, wrote publicly that polygamy “gives women the highest opportunities for self-development, exercise of judgment, and arouses latent faculties, making them truly cultivated in the actual realities of life, more independent in thought and mind, noble and unselfish.” In her private journal, though, Wells despaired of how polygamy had robbed her of the love of her husband, Daniel H. Wells, member of the church’s first presidency.

Emmeline wrote, “O, if my husband could only love me even a little and not seem to be perfectly indifferent to any sensation of that kind. He cannot know the cravings of my nature; he is surrounded with love on every side, and I am cast out.”

“He is surrounded with love on every side, and I am cast out,” is an appropriate indictment of polygamy, and no doubt a reason that it has long been discarded by the LDS Church.

As Van Wagoner recalls, another LDS women leader, physician Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon, the first female state senator in the U.S., yearned in her personal letters for one husband who would be hers only to cherish. Despite these yearnings, she clung to her LDS faith in “the Principle.” Martha wrote her husband, Angus, that only her divine knowledge of the sacred principle of plural marriage made it bearable to endure. Nevertheless, Martha also wrote this scolding to Angus: “How do you think I feel when I meet you driving another plural wife about in a glittering carriage in broad day light? (I) am entirely out of money …”

For Emmeline Wells, there was a sort of happy ending that was denied many others. As Van Wagoner recounts, in his final years, her frail and aging husband, Daniel, seeking tender care and companionship, returned to Emmeline’s home and side, after mostly ignoring her for 40 years. In her eyes, that probably counted as a blessing due after decades of suffering.

Despite lurid tales and even the teenage bride races, sex was a distant reason for polygamy. It was the result of an odd doctrine, now mostly forgotten in the LDS Church, that taught that the more wives and children one accumulated on earth would increase one’s post-life eternal influence and kingdoms. Yet, one will rarely hear that explanation today.


TOPICS: History; Moral Issues; Other Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: brighamyoung; byu; divorce; homosexualagenda; inman; josephsmith; lds; mittromney; mittromneysreligion; mormon; mormonism; mormons; polyamory; polygamy; polygyny; romney
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-83 next last
Note #1: This Utah journalist is Mormon.

From the column: Polygamy was a contradictory doctrine, and extremely dysfunctional. Brigham Young once said that he wished it wasn’t a doctrine, but later also raged that those who disbelieved in polygamy — and even monogomous LDS men — were in danger of damnation. And polygamy led to divorce among LDS elite leaders in numbers that would shock today. According to Van Wagoner, more than 50 marriages of LDS leaders ended in divorce in the mid 19th century. Indeed, two early wives of LDS apostle brothers, Orson and Parley Pratt, gave their husbands the heave-ho for their enthusiastic embrace of polygamy, and penchant for young, teenage brides.

Parley Pratt was Mitt Romney's ancestor.

From the column: Despite lurid tales and even the teenage bride races, sex was a distant reason for polygamy. It was the result of an odd doctrine, now mostly forgotten in the LDS Church, that taught that the more wives and children one accumulated on earth would increase one’s post-life eternal influence and kingdoms. Yet, one will rarely hear that explanation today.

In 1866, Brigham Young taught that "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are thosewho enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269, 8/19/1866).

Oops. If Brigham was a "prophet," only a few Lds general authorities (who have taken consecutive wives) will become potential gods, eh?

In 1870, the people of Utah sent a Memorial to Congress that labeled polygamy as a divine principle "underlying our every hope of eternal salvation and happiness in heaven." (see Richard Abanes, Inside Today's Mormonism, pp. 233-234, Harvest House, 2004)

1 posted on 07/02/2011 6:05:46 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Fur Shur any "Conservative" LDS general authority who takes on an extra wife, or even lets his wife know his thoughts in that direction, probably will not get to be a potential god.

Real Conservative women are reputed to be good shots with a wide variety of firearms of suitible caliber. No reason to think otherwise of Conservative LDS women.

2 posted on 07/02/2011 6:14:50 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

I used to have a cartoon showing the toll Poligamy takes on a family.

From around the late 1800s, it showed a woman with a broken heart setting rejected in a chair with her two children at her knee.

Through a door in the back you can see hubby, in another room, hugging up with his cute new “wife”.


3 posted on 07/02/2011 6:19:57 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Oops. If Brigham was a "prophet," only a few Lds general authorities (who have taken consecutive wives) will become potential gods, eh?

Nah... Joe Smith made sure that any inconvenient things can be changed at a later date. Beautiful thing about that "later revelation" policy.

4 posted on 07/02/2011 6:20:34 PM PDT by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
re: For Emmeline Wells, there was a sort of happy ending that was denied many others. As Van Wagoner recounts, in his final years, her frail and aging husband, Daniel, seeking tender care and companionship, returned to Emmeline’s home and side, after mostly ignoring her for 40 years. In her eyes, that probably counted as a blessing due after decades of suffering.)))

Yuck. How is this a happy ending? Why didn't he stick with his teenaged nurses? Maybe she fed him some arsenic.

Sad story, but we are headed in this direction with the wide acceptance of same sex marriage. Polygamy has a long history, and is legal in Ontario, Canada to suit the perversions of the Muslims. We'll see it in Michigan, first...

5 posted on 07/02/2011 6:33:18 PM PDT by Mamzelle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Why would the children of one wife not hate the children of another who alienated their father’s affection? I would despise such a father, and plot always to undermine the interlopers.


6 posted on 07/02/2011 6:35:51 PM PDT by Mamzelle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
po·lyg·a·my /pəˈligəmē/ Noun 1. The practice or custom of having too many wives at one time.

mo·nog·a·my /məˈnägəmē/ Noun 1. The practice or custom of having too many wives at one time.

7 posted on 07/02/2011 6:41:55 PM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mamzelle
re: For Emmeline Wells, there was a sort of happy ending that was denied many others. As Van Wagoner recounts, in his final years, her frail and aging husband, Daniel, seeking tender care and companionship, returned to Emmeline’s home and side, after mostly ignoring her for 40 years. In her eyes, that probably counted as a blessing due after decades of suffering.))) Yuck. How is this a happy ending? Why didn't he stick with his teenaged nurses? Maybe she fed him some arsenic.

What do you expect of Daniel Wells? He left his first wife in Nauvoo when the Mormons headed West. He took on six wives in Utah -- Emmeline being the seventh. Five years after marrying her, he made massacre history by being third in charge of the militia that engaged in an outright terrorist act vs. children, moms & dads. See: Mormon Shooters and Clubbers: General DANIEL HANMER WELLS

According to that site: DANIEL HANMER WELLS, a MORMON SHOOTER and CLUBBER, Commander-in-Chief of the territorial militia, the Nauvoo Legion, it is not known as to how much knowledge Wells had prior to the attack that took place at Mountain Meadows. However, as third in command in the military hierarchy, he, as well as his superiors, George A. Smith , and Brigham Young , are culpable under the military rules of accountability. Further, there is little question that he and superiors were involved in the cover-up that followed the brutal and cowardly slaughter. The LDS Church has knowingly sponsored, endorsed, and forever immortalized these butchers into history. Wells was born on October 27, 1814 in Trenton, New York to Daniel Wells and his wife Catherine Chapin. When he grew up he married Eliza Rebecca Robison on March 12, 1837 in Commerce (later Nauvoo), Illinois. The couple made their home in Nauvoo and Wells was a "Jack Mormon", a term applied to non-church members, who defended the church and its members. He was personal friends with Joseph Smith which helped him get elected to the Nauvoo City Council and later as a judge. After his friend, Joseph Smith, was killed in June, 1844 and the Mormons were expelled from the area, Wells decided to join the church. Made an official church member in 1846, Wells remained in Illinois until 1848, when he went to Utah and began working toward the organization of the State of Deseret. However, his wife, Eliza, who never participated in plural marriages, did not accompany him. In Utah, Daniel, on the other hand, would take six wives. In the year of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Wells was ordained as an Apostle, was the second counselor to Brigham Young, and the commanding officer of the Nauvoo Legion, the territorial militia. Later he would preside over the church's European missions while living in Great Britain and when he returned to Utah Territory was elected mayor of Salt Lake City in 1866, a position he held until 1874. In 1872 Wells was arrested for being an accessory in the murder of Robert Yates, a murder that occurred in 1857 at the mouth of Echo Canyon. Though a man named Bill Hickman would eventually confess to killing Yates, Wells was the official commanding officer of the military operation which resulted in the death of Yates, thereby making him an accessory. However, a year later the charges were dismissed. In 1879 he was jailed for failing to disclose information regarding the various polygamist marriages he had performed. Jailed for a couple of months and accessed a $100 fine, he was released.

Ya gotta understand these polygamists were criminals; and many of them were mass murderers as well.

But, they probably were "nice" mass murderers.

8 posted on 07/02/2011 6:52:46 PM PDT by Colofornian (The Mormon church regards 100% of the founding fathers as apostates from the 'true' church)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Van Wagoner recounts the tale of one husband who abandoned plans to take a plural wife after his wife informed him that she had received a revelation from God directing her to shoot any spare wife who darkened the family doorstep.
_______________________________________________

LOL

good for her

I didnt know that the 3wives were able to divorce their adulterous husbands

I know that the mormon males cheated wholesale and but I thought because of the threat of death that Joey Smith wrote in D&C 132 against Emma Hale if she tried to stop his midnight sexual trysts, and the ones right in her house in front of her, the later women were scared to say anythinbg

and then theres that day that Briggie Young got up and said if the wives didnt like the extramariatial sex, they could lump it and all leave..

So there were lots of divorces among the mormons for the adultery of the males...

Those mormon women had gumption and righteousness...

I wonder if the latest convert in these threads knows about this ???

NAH

:)


9 posted on 07/02/2011 6:56:59 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mamzelle

Probably a partial reason for upper class Muslim male rage and hatred today (for those from polygamous families).


10 posted on 07/02/2011 7:04:03 PM PDT by tbw2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Mamzelle

Polygamy has a long history, and is legal in Ontario, Canada to suit the perversions of the Muslims.
______________________________________________

Why just the Moslems ???

Theres a lot of Mormons in Ontario who like that kind of perversion also


11 posted on 07/02/2011 7:10:58 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

‘Ol Bring ‘em Young did become a believer in polygamy didn’t he. Here’s some other thoughts.

“As a girl I had been proud that my father and mother had obeyed the highest principle in the Church... I was aware now that my mother’s early married life must have been humiliating and joyless on many occasions because of her position as a second wife.” - Annie Clark Tanner, A Mormon Mother, 1969, p. 133

“A woman in polygamy is compelled by her lone position to make a confidant of her children.” - Annie Clark Tanner, A Mormon Mother, 1969, p. 236

“She [the plural wife] must lay aside wholly all interest or thought in what her husband was doing while he was away from her... [and be] pleased to see him when he came in as she was pleased to see any friend.” - Vilate Kimball, in “Theatrical and Social Affairs in Utah,” by S.A. Cooks, pp. 5-6, Bancroft Library, see Isn’t One Wife Enough, p. 209

“It is a fact, so well known that the Twelve and their adherents have endeavored to carry on this spiritual wife business… and have gone to the most shameful and desperate lengths to keep it from the public. First, insulting innocent females, and when they resented the insult, these monsters in human shape would assail their characters by lying, and perjuries, with a multitude of desperate men to help them effect the ruin of those whom they had insulted, and all this to enable them to keep these corrupt practices from the view of the world.” - Apostle Sidney Rigdon, Messenger and Advocate, October 15, 1844

“I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow, and if you want to build up the kingdom you must take more wives.” - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, quoted in Jennie Anderson Froiseth, ed., The Women of Mormonism: or the Story of Polygamy As Told by the Victims Themselves, 1886; see Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 295

“God will be very cruel if he does not give us poor women adequate compensation for the trials we have endured in polygamy.”
- Mary Ann Angell Young, quoted in Anti-Polygamy Standard, August 1882, p. 36

“O, if my husband could only love me even a little and not seem to be perfectly indifferent to any sensation of that kind.... O my poor aching heart when shall it rest its burden only on the Lord.” - Emmeline B. Wells, diary date of September 30, 1874, quoted in Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy, p. 94

“It is the very refinement of cruelty, this polygamy, and it hurts are deeper and more poisonous than any other wounds can be. They never heal, but grow constantly more painful, until it makes life unendurable.” - Ann Eliza Young, letter to Mormon Women, “Letter Number Two,” in Froiseth, ed. The Women of Mormonism, pp. 169-170

Fundamental bad fruit of mormonism.


12 posted on 07/02/2011 7:24:07 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

13 posted on 07/02/2011 7:47:39 PM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Democrats- Forgetting 9/11 since 9/12/01)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: MuttTheHoople

HBO also feature Bill Maher. The minds that control the programming there were scraped from the sewer.


14 posted on 07/02/2011 8:48:17 PM PDT by Caipirabob ( Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah; Colofornian

Real Conservative women are reputed to be good shots with a wide variety of firearms of suitible caliber. No reason to think otherwise of Conservative LDS women.

- - - - - -
You would think so, but when I was LDS, and esp when I lived in Utah I was the only woman I knew who shot. I am assuming there were others, but I was always the only female on hunting trips. The women stayed home and canned and I never saw another woman at the range.

And, even know among my LDS friends, I know only one woman who has ever fired a gun and she she hasn’t done that in about 10 years now.

Never thought about that until you mentioned it.


15 posted on 07/02/2011 9:27:30 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

” Van Wagoner recounts the tale of one husband who abandoned plans to take a plural wife after his wife informed him that she had received a revelation from God directing her to shoot any spare wife who darkened the family doorstep.”

Hmmm. How did he end up married to my wife . . . ?


16 posted on 07/02/2011 9:42:36 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
The Mormons were persecuted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mormonism

Many men died. In fact, especially years past men tended to die prematurely more often and on average were outlived by their wives considerably.

Today and in more recent history this has been abused by some wacky sects and distorted in what it was really about by the rest of America.

What some make into a sexual agenda today, was nothing more than a way of dealing with women without men, children without fathers in a time before big government and social programs. Throughout history, even within Europe, there were times and places where similar behavior occurred for similar reason, but that too is forgotten.

But hey, if you like the “porno version” better because that makes you feel good and maybe even bash some political candidate you don't see as your number one choice, more power to ya. Truth is irrelevant, it's all about feelings and perceptions of reality, "your version of the truth." Isn't it time for a good Mormon undergarment joke? Now, a black or Jew joke would be wrong, but a Moron joke is always OK in open minded America.

17 posted on 07/02/2011 10:00:44 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Mark Twain once quipped that after seeing these lovely Mormon wives, that any man who married more than one deserved a high place in heaven. Better than being a spinster in those days.

IF you really want to know about the problems of polygamy, read the Old Testament. I worked in tribal Africa, and we saw many of the same problems among our people.

Hagar...Leah...Michal...yeah, lots of sad wives who didn’t have their husband’s love...

Of course, in the US, we have “serial polygamy” with easy divorce and, of course, “living together” where the woman has to do all the work of a wife while getting no financial guarantees for her or her children.


18 posted on 07/02/2011 10:21:09 PM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LadyDoc
IF you really want to know about the problems of polygamy, read the Old Testament. I worked in tribal Africa, and we saw many of the same problems among our people. Hagar...Leah...Michal...yeah, lots of sad wives who didn’t have their husband’s love...

Agreed. (Except the ONLY one who ever referenced Hagar as a "wife" was Sarai/Sarah...Even after Hagar had slept with Abram/Abramham -- and we don't know how often that occurred -- they all still referenced her as a servant of Sarai...Abram did...the Angel of the Lord did...Hagar herself did...Moses did...and the apostle Paul did in Galatians 4)

Of course, in the US, we have “serial polygamy” with easy divorce and, of course, “living together” where the woman has to do all the work of a wife while getting no financial guarantees for her or her children.

Yes.

Mark Twain once quipped that after seeing these lovely Mormon wives, that any man who married more than one deserved a high place in heaven. Better than being a spinster in those days.

Most cases, tho, in Utah in the 19th century is that there weren't enough women to go around. Just sayin' for those who get the idea that most of these marriages were "spinster" related. (They weren't)

19 posted on 07/02/2011 10:28:00 PM PDT by Colofornian (The Mormon church regards 100% of the founding fathers as apostates from the 'true' church)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

http://books.google.com/books?id=jbcUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=tell+it+all&hl=en&ei=ufoPTsmQNcKCtge-pJXHDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have an original copy of this book, copywrite 1874


20 posted on 07/02/2011 10:29:49 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Ron Paul is to the Constitution what Fred Phelps is to the Bible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Red6; Ruy Dias de Bivar; Zakeet
The Mormons were persecuted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mormonism

Mormons killed more non-Mormons (Gentiles) than vice-versa...Mountain Meadows Massacre of 1857...attacks on the army around same years...it was a two-way struggle in Missouri in the 1830s, with non-Mormons dying, too.

Many men died. In fact, especially years past men tended to die prematurely more often and on average were outlived by their wives considerably.

Yes, many men died, but there was actually a documented shortage of women in Utah. Most polygamous wives were NOT in their 40s, 50s, & 60s.

21 posted on 07/02/2011 10:31:50 PM PDT by Colofornian (The Mormon church regards 100% of the founding fathers as apostates from the 'true' church)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: RaceBannon

Thanx for the link...I’ve seen quotes from her that the Tanners have cited. She “outed” Mormons on how young (pre-teens) the Mormons were lining up “brides.”


22 posted on 07/02/2011 10:33:31 PM PDT by Colofornian (The Mormon church regards 100% of the founding fathers as apostates from the 'true' church)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Red6; Ruy Dias de Bivar; Colofornian

The Mormons were persecuted. Many men died. In fact, especially years past men tended to die prematurely more often and on average were outlived by their wives considerably.

What some make into a sexual agenda today, was nothing more than a way of dealing with women without men, children without fathers in a time before big government and social programs.

- - - - - - - -
Wrong on all of these accounts. Many fewer LDS died as a result of the ‘perscution’ than claimed. Most of those who died on the trek west were a result of poor planning and greed on Brigham Youngs part, and as far as the care of widows and orphans? Nope. 11 of Smiths plural wives still had living husbands when he ‘married’ them. And the population of Utah during polygamy was about equal, men and women, with many men having little choice to remain single because of polygamy. Most plural wives, were wives in every sense (including bearing children) and well over 80% were never married when they became plural wives and the young ones had the consent of a parent, so the ‘widow and orphans’ angle is just another lie Mormons put forth.

Don’t believe the Mormon propaganda, there are several good sources about the truth about Mormon polygamy out there, I can provide some if you wish.

http://www.utlm.org/topicalindexb.htm and http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/ for starters


23 posted on 07/02/2011 11:41:58 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Red6
What some make into a sexual agenda today, was nothing more than a way of dealing with women without men, children without fathers in a time before big government and social programs.

Interesting that only the little group of Mormons came up with that idea.

Was the polygamy idea from God, or was that something that the Mormons were forced to adopt by later generations after struggling for decades to figure out a way to deal with all of the widowed Mormon mothers and their kids?

24 posted on 07/02/2011 11:52:12 PM PDT by ansel12 (America has close to India population of 1950s, India has 1,200,000,000 people now. Quality of Life?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Hagar wasn’t a full wife, but the relationship made Sarah miserable, which was my point.


25 posted on 07/03/2011 4:15:56 AM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Red6

You wrote:

“Throughout history, even within Europe, there were times and places where similar behavior occurred for similar reason, but that too is forgotten.”

Not really. Oh, there were rare instances of polygamy here and there, but who calling themselves “Christians” adopted polygamy as a religious practice in the modern era? There are only a few groups that have done that and all of them are considered fringe groups led by nuts. What does that tell us?


26 posted on 07/03/2011 5:30:55 AM PDT by vladimir998 (When anti-Catholics can't win they simply violate the rules of the forum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

Hmm ~ there’s really no good excuse for that. I’d encourage LDS women to get out there and learn to use firearms. You never know what’s going to happen!


27 posted on 07/03/2011 5:34:20 AM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Red6

By the way, here’s a modern example of European polygamy:

http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/bouquet/list.html

Fringe is an understatement.


28 posted on 07/03/2011 5:39:00 AM PDT by vladimir998 (When anti-Catholics can't win they simply violate the rules of the forum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
In modern times polygamy has been common in the country now known as Malaysia. There both Malay Moslems and Buddhist Chinese (which is more a "cultural" identification than "racial" or "ethnic") practiced polygamy.

The grandchildren of those who practice(d) the custom are not at all happy with it feeling it marks their country as LESS civilized than it otherwise is.

Thailand, which actually is far more primitive than Malaysia, but more progressive than Indonesia, has polygamy ~ again, among the Moslems in the Southeast and the Chinese Buddhists elsewhere.

It is known in Taiwan (not sure it's legal though) and is considered a barbaric practice ~

I suppose there are folks who practice it in Big China but it has to be difficult since the state is so intrusive there.

Growing up we knew a family where there were "two mothers" and their kids were all very angry with the "father" ~ as some of them grew into adulthood they ran him off.

They weren't Mormons, just hillbillies, but there you have it.

I think the early Mormon leaders got away with it because they could move away from civilization. Once civilization crowded in the practice was suppressed. It persists in subtropical and tropical regions because you can isolate yourself pretty much from the civilized world (and still eat, and you don't need heating or clothes either).

29 posted on 07/03/2011 5:46:20 AM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
In short, there's not as much polygamy going 'round as we imagine, and few, if any of the folks who post here have ever met a polygamist, although there are some who've known the children or grandchildren of polygamists.

Regarding serial polygamy I've known a woman (at work only guys) who had 11 husbands over the years, and some of Tony Bennett's kids ~ and one of Mel Torme's "extra" live-ins (pretty girl who grew up in the same old neighborhood ~ got entranced by Hollywood and next thing you know she was a sex slave).

30 posted on 07/03/2011 5:52:42 AM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Red6
Many men died. In fact, especially years past men tended to die prematurely more often and on average were outlived by their wives considerably.

And your point is????? Polygamy existed because there were too many women. bzzzzzt go back and study up red - that was not the case.

31 posted on 07/03/2011 8:01:24 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: LadyDoc; Colofornian
Hagar wasn’t a full wife, but the relationship made Sarah miserable, which was my point.

Did God command Abraham to make hagar his wife? Does the Bible relate hagar as his wife?

Point of the matter - mormonism claimed that God commanded polygamy. The biblical examples you cited were not commanded by God.

32 posted on 07/03/2011 8:05:41 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah

That should go for ALL women, LDS or not.


33 posted on 07/03/2011 9:14:18 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah

In short, there’s not as much polygamy going ‘round as we imagine, and few, if any of the folks who post here have ever met a polygamist,

- - - - - -
I knew several when I lived in Utah, including some in the Mainstream LDS church (the called the sister wives ‘nannies’ or ‘cousin’ or something similar to Big Love).

Once I was even approached by a good male LDS friend of mine (the one who got me into the Mormon church) to be a ‘sister wife’. He was 45 and I was 19. I said no, obviously.

It happens more than you know. The numbers are hard to come by but the estimates are between 40,000 and 250,000 polygamist adults in the US today.


34 posted on 07/03/2011 9:21:29 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
1/1000 ~ makes it rare. Sure, you hang around territory with known polygamists your chances are greater for meeting one (or even several). I think the fact you were invited in suggests you were definitely in the territory.

Folks outside that territory just never meet anyone like that.

35 posted on 07/03/2011 9:27:54 AM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah

Rarely outside the territory, although Warren Jeff’s group (TX) also has compounds in South Dakota, AZ, CA, ID, UT, and one other state. They are branching out.

Living in Utah, however, it is very common to know polygamists and usually which companies will hire them. Enrich (health food MLM) was widely known under their founder Ken Brailsford to be sympathetic to polygamists and hire them in non MLM capacities even though the Brailsford family were not polygamists themselves.

The company picnic was interesting in that way.


36 posted on 07/03/2011 9:33:25 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Mormonism is to Christianity....what Christianity is to Judaism. Remember...Christianity makes Mormonism possible. Both are false.


37 posted on 07/03/2011 10:18:54 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blasater1960
Mormonism is to Christianity....what Christianity is to Judaism

Which Judaism?

The awe-inspiring Judaism that were used of God to give us and preserve for us the Old Testament? Or, the "give us Barabbas" Judaism that killed Jesus Christ and the prophets before him?

38 posted on 07/03/2011 11:54:48 AM PDT by Colofornian (The Mormon church regards 100% of the founding fathers as apostates from the 'true' church)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Red6

***Isn’t it time for a good Mormon undergarment joke? ***

I dated a mormon girl many years ago. She didn’t have on anything at all! ;-D

Happy?


39 posted on 07/03/2011 1:11:21 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
It was common as far back as the biblical days where men would have other women bear them children (a son) if their own wife was barren, you might want to read about Ishmael and Isaac. In fact, during biblical times, it was the WIFE that would arrange this! It was common during the crusades, common after some wars..........

Here's the problem with the revisionist and politically correct version of how we want to see ourselves, men died more frequently and at a younger age, many women were left fending for themselves in a patriarchal society, not always stable and secure, where family and agriculture was the means to survival. During times like the hundred year war, you literally had entire generations of men wiped out, there were no “social systems” that provided either for the woman nor their children.

The childless or one child family that today has become common in Western society is in reality an ingredient for social self destruction even today, but back in those days the relationship was direct and not removed by a larger government bureaucracy and institutions/systems that obfuscates the fact that you can't eat money and it's your kids that feed you in old age, even today. Families were generally very large and (most likely) even those of your ancestors if you looked into it. The point is this; yes, it did happen even in Europe/Middle East....... repeatedly as far back as we have recorded history.

40 posted on 07/03/2011 5:26:31 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
Most groups that practice this today are wackos, I addressed this in my first post.

However, historically this served a different purpose.

41 posted on 07/03/2011 5:29:49 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
“Most of those who died on the trek west were a result of poor planning and greed on Brigham Youngs part, and as far as the care of widows and orphans? Nope. 11 of Smiths plural wives still had living husbands when he ‘married’ them. And the population of Utah during polygamy was about equal, men and women, with many men having little choice “


I'm not going to dissect this piece for piece, but the idea you pose of this being self imposed is amusing!

So what you're saying is that the Bataan Death March was really the fault of the “poor planning and greed” of the US forces, not the Japanese forcing them along? lol

Do you know what they did with Smith, after they murdered him? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr. ) The Mormon community was persecuted not once, twice or a few occasions, not even over simply a short time span, but literally decades. If one is serious and actually does a little bit of investigating and reading on this topic, but this is not the intent of those that cherry pick their facts or arguments. They were shot, hung and burned alive, their leaders murdered and mutilated, and they fled to a “no mans land” not because of all the great conveniences that were there waiting for them. May it be the actual persecution, the conditions they were exposed to that led to hardship, their journey's or building their new existence in a wilderness that wasn't the most forgiving, they lost many people.

Even today it is completely acceptable to make jokes or use ad hominem attacks on candidates etc. The same people of course would think twice if it were a black, native American, Jew or gay person they were attacking, but when it comes to Mormons, it's all good. The Mormons get the opportunity to have the left and the right dump on them, for differing reasons of course. The news media and Hollywood will join in on the fray since this community is opposed to many of the more socially progressive views. On the right there are stereo types, fictional make belief boogieman arguments or an exclusive view of Christianity that brands them as some sort of deviant.

Fact is, with the discussion of Romney as a candidate, the release of such articles is probably not coincidental. They don't even need to be outright negative and in fact if they were their true intent would be easily seen and their effectiveness lost. The purpose of these articles is to simply play on pre existing notions about Mormons and negatively impact Romney. You don't have to engage in name calling, just rekindle the cliche arguments by talking about issues that will surely draw a certain candidate into the cross-hairs.

42 posted on 07/03/2011 6:03:15 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Viva el Cid!

BTW, I didn’t care one way or another about Mormon beliefs even when the mishies tried to convert me to the holy underwear while I was in flight school enroute to Vietnam (garmies are fireproof just like our flightsuits haha).

It was only when I learned how the Mormon `scriptures’ teach hatred of the Catholic Church (and all other Christian denominations) that I decided to jump ugly on their weird beliefs and thought control.

Only I gotta really dumb question: why this pursuit of teenaged girls by middleaged Mormon men? Weren’t there lots of beautiful women out there in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s who would make equally desirable and devoted wives?

Not that it matters in my case, I’m 62 and my beautiful wife is ageless. Wouldn’t trade her for the world.


43 posted on 07/03/2011 6:15:29 PM PDT by elcid1970 ("Deport Muslims. Nuke Mecca. Death to Islam. Freedom for mankind.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah

Utah is one of the most pro gun states there is. CHL is common.

It is also one of the more socially conservative states in the Union.

They vote red: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4u9lzZ9sqJk/TSJ4q79O_ZI/AAAAAAAADVw/LQbrUHuPZ-Y/s1600/electoral.college.map.final.gif

It’s one of the few states left that has their affairs in order and isn’t tanking because of gross mismanagement and corruption.

What’s your point? Do you want them to be more like California? Delaware? Maryland? New York? Illinois?


44 posted on 07/03/2011 6:22:17 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: elcid1970

***Weren’t there lots of beautiful women out there in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s who would make equally desirable and devoted wives?****

I immagine the hard, hard work made them age very quick. But even then, the mormon banks were also financing houses of ill repute so the castoffs had a place to go. There was a thread on FR not long ago about mormon banking practices back then.


45 posted on 07/03/2011 6:26:06 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Red6; reaganaut; Colofornian
If one is serious and actually does a little bit of investigating and reading on this topic, but this is not the intent of those that cherry pick their facts or arguments. They were shot, hung and burned alive, their leaders murdered and mutilated,. . .

Interesting fiction you must be reading red. I'm sure you have unimpeachable sources for those hung and burned alive.

But their woes tended to be of their own cause. If you do serious research you will find that mormon Rierdon in his 'salt sermon' declared war on the missourians weeks before the state was forced to respond.

May it be the actual persecution, the conditions they were exposed to that led to hardship, their journey's or building their new existence in a wilderness that wasn't the most forgiving, they lost many people.

They were persecuted because their leadership was in open defiance of the laws of this country - so much for that article of faith. And yes, actual research will show that Young and the inspired mormon leadership royally screwed up with their hand cart migration - with self inflicted deaths.

On the right there are stereo types, fictional make belief boogieman arguments or an exclusive view of Christianity that brands them as some sort of deviant

Fictional - lol, well documented by their own history red, nor is it an "exclusive" view - IF you bother to read the threads here in the RELIGION FORUM (hint hint), you would see that their doctrines - from their sources - are posted and contrasted to traditional Christianity. No need for boogiemen red.

Finally - your analysis/excuse for polygamy in the 1800s is flawed - studies show that there was not an overpopulation of women in the country as a whole, nor in Utah Territory.

46 posted on 07/03/2011 6:29:54 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Red6
Why don't you click back up that conversation ~ it's a response to Reaganaut ~ you are taking it out of context.

Consequently your question is meaningless, and needlessly insulting.

Save the rage for the Leftwingtards and Mitbots!

47 posted on 07/03/2011 6:35:38 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

What I would like to know is, who do the children of such unions end up marrying? One polygamous man siring so many children creates a population of half-siblings. Are they going to inbreed with each other or migrate to other communities for mates?


48 posted on 07/03/2011 7:18:26 PM PDT by TheDingoAteMyBaby
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla
“studies show “ lol

references to self or other blogs/posts......

You stated: “because their leadership was in open defiance of the laws of this country “

You mean like having the US government pass laws that are unconstitutional by ANY litmus test and jail people (1,300), strip them of the voting rights, tell them that they are forbidden to run for public office.......... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmunds_Act

Or how about the Edmond's Tucker Act: where the US government essentially nationalized all property of the Mormon church! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmunds%E2%80%93Tucker_Act Which required an oath of office that made essentially ALL Mormons unqualified to hold public office, even if they never practiced polygamy! Dictating what textbooks kids use in schools, installing intentionally anti-Mormon federal judges.

This is getting comical, keep it coming!

You know, I'm Southern Baptist but grew up in Germany. Over there I had people looking at me like I was weird, they saw us as radical, in fact dangerous, sort of like a Muslim extremist.............

49 posted on 07/03/2011 7:26:14 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla
Just let me ask this before I disengage.

“If someone passed laws that were flagrantly unconstitutional and stepped all over you, would you follow them, or would you at some point simply ignore them?”

50 posted on 07/03/2011 7:30:02 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-83 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson