Posted on 07/10/2011 4:10:43 PM PDT by delacoert
If you don’t show “your faith “ by works in James — are you saved in Greek?
- - - - -
Yes, in the Greek and English and every other language. But as a Christian my ‘works’ are only to show my faith, to witness Christ to others. It has nothing, not a thing, to do with my being justified (saved) before God, that alone comes through faith in Christ and His saving work on the Cross.
We show other MEN our faith, by our works. God knows our hearts and where we place our faith (either in Christ alone or in our works or in an organization).
As someone else pointed out, even the demons believe Jesus is the Son of God. Are they saved?
...the communication that comes from God to the soul of a man or woman through the power of the Holy Ghost.(objective) [Normandy]
This description manifests a lack of identification with Christ. [Cvengr]
Agreed. The problem with Mormons (including Glen Beck) is that they are told that a ‘warm fuzzy’ called a burning in the bosom is the measure of truth. They are not encouraged, and in fact discouraged from seeking the truth outside of their feelings.
They are told that these warm feelings are the Holy Spirit and anything that makes them feel uncomfortable is not of God. When in reality the Holy Spirit feels very different. It can make us feel great, it can cause us to spontaneously worship, and it can convict us, make us feel uncomfortable, but it is not a feeling that can be duplicated in any other way. And it isn’t just feelings as you so aptly pointed out, it is how God communicates with us through His Word.
I am an academic by training, both in History and Biblical studies, and I completely agree that you cannot confuse academics with the Holy Spirit.
I used to be Mormon and I know the way the LDS gain their ‘testimony’ (which is not what God has done in their lives but what they ‘know’ to be ‘true’ about Mormonism) and I know what feelings they are expected to feel. Only after I left Mormonism, became a Christian and really felt the power of the Holy Spirit in my life, did I see that what I thought was the Holy Spirit when I was Mormon was nothing but a shallow counterfeit.
Norm, I KNOW how things are from a believing Mormon, I was one for a long time. A total TBM. Then God opened my eyes and saw that Mormonism is a lie and I was deceived and didn’t know Christ at all even though I claimed to be a Christian (like most Mormons after 1985 do - before that it was a flat out insult for a Mormon to be called a Christian)
You said - “When God reveals truth e.g. through the written or spoken word of His servants, the Holy Spirit confirms that truth to those who are spiritually prepared to receive it and thus they receive a testimony from God.”
So, if a faithful member of the LDS church, receives a testimony (that they believe is from the Holy Spirit) about a doctrine, say Jesus was married, and YOU receive a testimony that He wasn’t. Only one of you is prepared to receive it?
One of you is being deceived. You both can’t have a ‘testimony’ of conflicting things. What about all those who had ‘testimonies’ about Blacks having the mark of Cain? How is yours valid over theirs?
The point I am making that by its very nature, the mormon method of determining ‘truth’ (testimony) is flawed and unbiblical.
We are never told that God will reveal truth to us through ‘burning in the bosom’ or feelings. We are taught to compare what we are taught with the word of God (Bible). Mormons don’t do that, rather they pray about every little thing and if they get the burning in the bosom, then it must be true, even if it is no longer doctrine.
You can’t have smorgasbord Mormonism, it doesn’t work that way.
Still waiting for you to show some of these ‘errors’ you claim are in the Bible.
So far, you gave me James vs. Paul and that isn’t an error or even a contradiction as I pointed out.
Just a reminder, Greek and Hebrew with MSS numbers.
Since you claim there are so many, shouldn’t be hard at all.
Ya' don't say. LOL Has anyone ever noticed that most endearing Mormon quality of denying that this or that teaching is doctrine, when it is clear to everyone that IS doctrine? [Delacoert]
ALL: Well, it's tough to beat to that excellent size-up provided by Delacoert. I think my all-time "fave" cut-to-the-chase summary of this common line of Mormon thinking we've seen over the FREEPER years was the following contribution from Ejonesie22...(I believe Ejonesie22 must have dusted off the microscope to read the Mormon legal fineprint that Paragon Defender often linked to!):
The 'classic' assessment from Ejones: Official sites are sites supported by LDS officials unless said official sites are consider unofficial by said officials. At that point such sites are unofficial unless officially referenced for official purposes by officials who can do so officially. This should not be misconstrued as an indication that official sites can be unofficially recognized as official nor should it be implied that unofficial sites cannot contain official information, but are not officially allowed to be offical despite their official contents due the their unofficialness. Official sites will be official and recognized as official by officials of the LDS unless there is an official reason to mark them as unofficial either temporally or permanently, which would make the official content officially unofficial. This is also not to imply that recognized sites, often used here by haters cannot contain official information, it just means that content, despite its official status, is no longer official and should be consider unofficial despite the same information being official on an official site else where. Even then the officialness my be amended due to the use of the unofficial information which may determine the officialness of anything be it official or unofficial depending on how and where it is used officially or unofficially. I hope this clear things up for the lurkers out there. As I said the haters tend to make things complicated and confusing when it is all crystal clear.... Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2573705/posts Post #24
(Thanks again Ejones!...we need those fine-print navigators out there! ...and thanks, Normandy...we need cont'd Lds examples like what's you've provided on this thread to see how Mormons have learned to deflect the consequences of their leaders' words!)
How often have we seen posts through the years where somebody cites a previous sermon or Journal of Discourses reference by an LDS “prophet” or general authority only to be told, “Ya know, that’s not LDS canon!” or “You can’t hold an LDS “prophet” or “apostle” accountable for every obscure spiritual message he gives in public, can you?”
Whenever a Mormon would offer up such an explanation, well, how befuddled could they leave readers? Here, LDS have lectured us left & right about the need for living revelators & seers & "prophets" & "apostles" via general conference messages, Ensign mag articles, sermons, teachings, writings, etc. (So tell us again why it’s our issue if Mormons consider what any general authority—dead or alive—has voiced publicly to either be dismissed or deemed obscure?
ALL: The lesson to be learned here? ANYthing ANY Mormon general authority has said can be readily dismissed. If one Lds "prophet" has said "No blacks allowed." Well, so what? A later Lds "prophet" just updates the teaching; reverses it, and moves on.
* Polygamy as a Book of Mormon "abomination" in the Book of Jacob, 1830? (Yup)
* Joseph Smith & D&C 132 institutionalizing it? (Yup)
* A manifesto frowning upon it (1890?) (Yup)
* McConkie announcing the Mormon Jesus will rebound polygamy into the earthly mix? (1966) (Yup)
* Lds leaders tossing McConkie's book "Mormon Doctrine" in the waste bin of republishing? (2010) (Yup)
* Polygamy going on near Kolob right now, per Mormonism? (Yup)
My advice? Since Normandy so readily tosses parts of McConkie's prophecies into the waste bin -- as his leaders have modeled for him -- why, just do the same thing with ALL what Mormon leaders have prophesied through the years!
As Delacoert pointed out, I think it’s downright disingenuous to hype up tone & content-wise to…
IN ONE BREATH…
“We’re the only church on earth that has a living prophet who speaks for God on all things...and we are the living church which has restored the 12 apostles”…
AND THEN IN THE NEXT BREATH TELL US…
“Yeah, we know all about that ‘speaking for God’ thing but you know…
(a)…”Nobody’s perfect…”
(b) …”these guys engage in countless public speculations…”
(c) …”we were hoping you wouldn’t notice all that much of what they’ve had to say ‘cause we assigned much of it to that round file over there we call the ‘obscurity bucket…’
(d) …”and, besides, nobody knows for certain if what they say has been recorded accurately…these are things that were just reported to have been said at one time or another…I mean, come on, they’re only God’s living prophets, presidents, revelators, seers, apostles & representatives on earth…What? Do you expect us to have an accurate stenographer on hand to at least 100% accurately report what they’ve said in sermons & general conferences?”
something tells me we will be waiting a long time, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Yeah, I’m not holding my breath for a response. We see a lot of these ‘drive by’ Mormon apologists. They come in, make accusations, don’t back them up, find out we can source our claims then run away. It never occurs to them that we have actually done our homework.
Gary only signed up to FR on 6-26-11. I don’t think he will be back on these threads at all.
If you do not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, GOD and Savior, part of the ONE God, then nothing, no matter how good you are, you are not saved as we know it.
What happens to these folks, we leave them to God's plan, but just by your works you cannot save yourself
You must repent, believe and be baptised in the name of the father, son and the holy Spirit, partake of the body of Christ and endure to the end.
James does not contradict Paul, Paul does not contradict James. Paul refutes that the works of the Law will save you without belief in Christ, James says that if we are filled with faith we grow in God's grace as displayed by our works.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.