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Is Michelle Bachman an anti-Catholic? Or merely a Protestant? {ECUMENICAL thread}
Catholic Culture ^ | 14 Jul 2011 | CC

Posted on 07/15/2011 3:14:18 AM PDT by Cronos

An unusually ignorant story in The Atlantic--with a completely misleading headline—questions the religious affiliation of Rep. Michelle Bachman Republican presidential candidate.

Bachman was—but no longer is—a member of a Minnesota Lutheran congregation that belongs to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. The latter, a theologically conservative group, teaches that the Roman Catholic Church embodies the spirit of Antichrist—although a representative of the group reports that this view is rarely expressed today. Columnist Joshua Green asks whether Catholic voters will find Bachman’s beliefs offensive.

But Bachman herself never professed that belief. When questioned about it, she repudiated it, and said that she regards Catholics as good Christians. Moreover, she has formally withdrawn from the Wisconsin Lutheran parish.

Writing for GetReligion, Mollie Ziegler Hemingway (who is Lutheran) finds it remarkable that Green should be shocked by the beliefs of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. They are Protestants, after all; if they agreed with the Catholic Church they would presumably be Catholics. She argues that the Synod’s official statement shows only that “they’re still Protestants who still don’t believe in the papacy and still think it sits in opposition to the Gospel of Christ.”


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; History; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichrist; bachman; catholic; gop; lutheran; mediabias; papacy; pope; protestant; romancatholic; romancatholicism; wels
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NOTE: this is an ECUMENICAL Thread.

the rules for an ecumenical thread are here

Ecumenic threads are closed to antagonism.

Unlike the “caucus” threads, the article and reply posts of an “ecumenic” thread can discuss more than one belief, but antagonism is not tolerable.

when in doubt, only post what you are “for” and not what you are “against.”

Note -- I'm Catholic and while I don't like the language in the WELS statement, I recognize it as a historical viewpoint not their belief today. They disagree with my beliefs as I do with theirs.

Michelle, one may like or not like, but she does not hold to his belief and I would be surprised if this was a regular sermon at her WELS Church

I posted this as an example of media trying to toss anything and everything against a viable GOP candidate. This is in the religion section as I thought this required ecumenism in that we all recognize that we disagree on topics but recognize how much we do agree on

1 posted on 07/15/2011 3:14:25 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: All
From Christian century.org
WELS Synod spokesman Joel Hochmuth said in an interview the anti-papal doctrine is "not one of our driving views, and certainly not something that we preach from the pulpit." Hochmuth said he doubts whether many members of WELS are aware of the doctrine, which dates to Protestant Reformer Martin Luther.

Bill Donohue, president of the watchdog Catholic League, said he does not believe Bachmann is anti-Catholic


2 posted on 07/15/2011 3:18:09 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

> Columnist Joshua Green asks whether Catholic voters will
> find Bachman’s beliefs offensive.

Yes, of course. I’m sure Catholics will find Bachman’s Lutheranism far more offensive than 0bama’s pro-abortion, pro-homo, pro-Moslem, anti-Christian, anti-business, anti-American positions.
/sarc


3 posted on 07/15/2011 3:20:39 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Westbrook

LOL!

I think the question, actually, was whether she found Catholics offensive and thus would be hostile to them.

Any Catholic who has been on FR for very long is pretty used to raving Protestant hostility by now! But in general, I don’t think this would be a problem with her; she’s an intelligent, educated Christian adult and not a member of Billy-Bob’s First Church of the Flaming Snakehandler, so I think she’d be fine. Certainly better than, as you say, the pro-abortion, pro-homo, pro-Moslem, anti-Christian, anti-business, anti-American creature now in the WH!


4 posted on 07/15/2011 3:33:37 AM PDT by livius
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To: Westbrook
It's a hit-piece by Joshua Green. His agenda to try to destroy Bachman's candidacy is blooming apparent.

The only reason I'm guessing this is happening is because the Catholic vote in Canada went conservative as Catholics finally got fed up of libs. And Obambi has p**** off quite a few folks here. His supporters are getting desperate.

5 posted on 07/15/2011 3:37:35 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

They also want to make her look like some kind of primitive from the backwoods, which of course she is not. They criticize her education the same way.

One of the problems is that media can’t understand anybody who’s not just like them, and they live in an environment where there is nothing but contempt for people who are not like them.


6 posted on 07/15/2011 3:56:03 AM PDT by livius
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To: Westbrook

In a way I see this story as a good thing. It shows liberals are scared wit-less.


7 posted on 07/15/2011 4:01:04 AM PDT by YankeeReb
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To: livius; Cronos

Thanks, guys.

I’m not a Catholic, but I am definitely not an anti-Catholic, either. There are a lot of folks in the Catholic church that I consider to be brethren in the Lord.

I have a good relationship with one of the leaders of the Catholic Congregation in my town. We have had many a great chat going round and round on the Bible.

At one point in one of our discussions, he asked, “How can you know so much about the Bible and not be a Catholic?” To which I responded, “How can you know so much about the Bible and still be a Catholic?”

We had a great laugh together and maintain a good relationship to this day.


8 posted on 07/15/2011 4:02:56 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: YankeeReb

> It shows liberals are scared wit-less.

:)

Praise the Lord! Scared people will speak and act irrationally. The less rationally they comport themselves, the more they will be exposed for the inept, wit-less, permanent adolescents they are.


9 posted on 07/15/2011 4:05:10 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: livius
She’s an intelligent, educated Christian adult and not a member of Billy-Bob’s First Church of the Flaming Snakehandler, so I think she’d be fine.

Now that is both funny and true!

Am Catholic myself, and will vote for Bachmann because she is a pro-life Conservative.

10 posted on 07/15/2011 4:13:56 AM PDT by Prole (Please pray for the families of Chris and Channon. May God always watch over them.)
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To: Westbrook

I’m sure the “Reverend” Jeremiah Wright is next in line to be Archbishop of Chicago. /sarc


11 posted on 07/15/2011 4:13:56 AM PDT by ALPAPilot
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To: Cronos

Can we criticize Barack Obama for belonging to a racist “Afro-centric” church, and not criticize conservatives who belong to an anti-Catholic church?

We CAN make a distinction between church dogma that is dormant and not embodied in the life of the church. The so-called Reverend at Obama’s church actively engaged in race-bashing from the pulpit, reserving his worst venom for blacks in inter-racial marriages. Do ministers at Bachmann’s church actively engage in Catholic-bashing from the pulpit?

Is this distinction enough?

On the other hand, a few years ago, when the word got out that there was a ban on inter-racial dating at a certain church-based institution in South Carolina, a lot of people started praying that the leaders of this institution would get a word of knowledge on the issue. I might also mention that a prominent black conservative with his beautiful wife, who is from India, and their beautiful children, went there; and, he delivered a powerful speech (sermon?) on Christianity and race. The leaders of the institution did get that word of knowledge. Such in the power of God to transform hearts.

Let us not diminish God’s grace.

Let us use this occasion to prayer for the unity of the church.


12 posted on 07/15/2011 4:18:40 AM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: Cronos
Thank you, Cronos, for a level headed approach. I saw an article about this yesterday and I forget where it was published. So what, it was obvious the author was trying to stir up trouble.

If the WELS thinks the papacy is the anti-Christ, the Catholic church also teaches that all non-Catholics are going to hell as one cannot be saved unless a Catholic.

We have differences of opinion, that doesn't mean we despise each other. For those who stop and think about this, it needs to be disregarded.

13 posted on 07/15/2011 4:21:28 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: livius; Westbrook
Certainly better than, as you say, the pro-abortion, pro-homo, pro-Moslem, anti-Christian, anti-business, anti-American creature now in the WH!

Exactly

14 posted on 07/15/2011 4:26:24 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Prole
Am Catholic myself, and will vote for Bachmann because she is a pro-life Conservative.

I haven't made up my mind completely yet, but I would possibly vote for Bachman to become our candidate. If she wins the candidacy, then I'm going to vote for her no matter what! I haven't completely decided if I would vote for ANY GOP candidate even a RINO if he/she goes up against BHO -- anything is better than BHO...

15 posted on 07/15/2011 4:29:31 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: livius
You're getting out of line there ~ that's pretty antagonistic toward the snake handlers. As everybody knows who's had anything to do with them "socially" they are pretty much mainstream Protestants ~ very much like Methodists or Presbyterians ~ but they have this thing about snakes.

There aren't very many of them either ~ the snakes see to that!

As far as Raving Protestant hostility is concerned, I do believe all the principals at Free Republic are, themselves, Roman Catholic! Are you suggesting they aren't good Catholics?

16 posted on 07/15/2011 4:31:23 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma; Redmen4ever; livius; Westbrook
Quite frankly cgg, I don't even want to discuss what our churches have written down in small print -- we don't hear sermons at the pulpit that rail on either side, do we?

As red put it correctly -- there is no active bashing.

more importantly: the lib writer who brought this up doesn't really care what the WELS thinks about Catholics or vice-versa.

I doubt he even really cares what either Church teaches at all -- he just wants to disrupt Michele's candidacy.

As a Catholic I would be distressed if we even discussed this aspect wrt Michele's candidacy. It is a non-issue about Michele.

We can discuss this separately on a separate context, but to discuss this in ANY context with Michele is succumbing to the left's dividing tactics.

17 posted on 07/15/2011 4:36:45 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

This is just another “divide and conquer” hit piece. Bachmann must be making more than a few people nervous.


18 posted on 07/15/2011 4:51:09 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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To: Westbrook

Great story!


19 posted on 07/15/2011 4:51:24 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Cronos

I agree wholeheartedly. We who love the Lord, whether Catholic or Protestant, are not the target here. This is another attempt to use our differences against ourselves, and each other to sink one of the better-floating campaigns we’ve thus far seen for 2012. I haven’t yet seen or heard much that disappoints me about Michele, although I am nowhere near making up my mind on who I’ll support. She does impress, with reason. And thus, the left is a cowering pile of jello in the corner yet again. Since they’ve nothing of substance, one of their usual tactics is displayed for us: divide. If it cannot be reduced by fact, use innuendo and lies. Nothing new. Versus the left, I’ll side with every one of you, always.


20 posted on 07/15/2011 5:04:59 AM PDT by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: Cronos
If she never agreed with it in the first place, and her congregation has left the WELS anyway, why should it be relevant?

Of course, if she were a liberal Democrat, she could have spent 20 years in a church that regularly preached hatred for America, said she "just never heard that stuff," and get a free pass from the press.

21 posted on 07/15/2011 5:13:23 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
the Catholic church also teaches that all non-Catholics are going to hell as one cannot be saved unless a Catholic.

You are very much misinformed on that point.

22 posted on 07/15/2011 5:15:16 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Campion
Thanks, if I am, please let me know. I have read that many times.

My point is that we cannot let this author have his way and create strife. We have lived this way for a long time and now this Green guy shows up and wants to create trouble.

I happen to be LCMS and do not agree with the papacy BUT that does not mean I believe that Catholics are going to hell. The Bible says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved", is good enough for me.

23 posted on 07/15/2011 5:21:16 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Cronos

I am with you 100 percent.


24 posted on 07/15/2011 5:23:56 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Campion

True. I hope all are mature to see this as just a political ploy and not allow the leftists to divide us


25 posted on 07/15/2011 5:28:42 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Mad Dawg; Cronos; livius

You know, regardless of their devotion to Mary, nobody could love Jesus like my Catholic brothers and not be a Christian.

If anything, perhaps we “evangelicals” tend to over-de-emphasize the role of Jesus’ earthly family in his life, particularly that of His mother.

Mother of God? Perhaps I would rephrase that as “Mother of God’s Son”. But He was God incarnate, so, “Mother of God” is not a stretch.

I used to be very concerned about the Ishtar/Tammuz thing, and the similarities between that religion and Christianity.

But Satan is a masterful counterfeiter. What came first, God’s plan of Salvation through His Son’s Birth to a virgin, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension, or Satan’s counterfeit Babylon religion?

What about Christmas vs. Saturnalia?

Again, a masterful ploy by Satan to remove the joy of celebration from the Christian.

Consider.

Jesus was crucified on the Passover when He was 33 1/2 years old. Passover occurs on the first full moon after the vernal equinox, sometime in March or April.

If Jesus was 33 1/2 in March or April, then He had to have been born in September or October.

Count backwards nine months from September/October, and you get December/January, which is when He wold have been conceived.

As a Christian, I believe that life starts at conception, therefore, the Advent of Jesus Christ is correctly celebrated in the December/January time frame.

God’s plan for Salvation, which planned also the dates of His advent, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, came long before the Roman feast of Saturnalia.

Now, there remain many doctrines of the Catholic church with which I disagree, but I’m not ready to call the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon. Good grief!

Why all the different sects and “denominations”? I don’t know. But we are called to Unity, not to Division.

Read 1st Corinthians 1:10-15 and Ephesians chapter 4, the whole chapter.

Differences of opinion must not divide us. Even differences in practice. We can have spirited discussions of these things, but we must not divide over them.

The last thing we need now is acrimony among the brethren.


26 posted on 07/15/2011 5:41:51 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Cronos

Almost all protestants are anti-Catholic, other than the Episcopalians, in my experience. It isn’t so much in the theology itself as much as the fact that so many sects are built with heretics with an axe to grind. That said, Bachmann’s stances on social issues mesh pretty well with Catholic theology and I don’t see any evidence where she would push an agenda suppressing the Catholic church. As a Catholic, I am not concerned nor do I care what she thinks about the Catholic church. Judeo-Christian morals are Judeo-Christian moral. It isn’t like she is a Muslim.


27 posted on 07/15/2011 5:48:07 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: Westbrook; Mad Dawg; livius
interesting you bring it up -- I used to read a lot about Nordic gods, but for some reason I never read the story of Odin hanging himself on a tree and "sacrificing" himself for knowledge until a week ago.

I'm still a bit troubled by that similarity, but it is, as you said, a masterful counterfeit, just like the Ishthat thing.

Odin may have hung from a tree, but even the story says that he did this for his own gain, not as a freely given sacrifice

From wikipeda

In Rúnatal, a section of the Hávamál, Odin is attributed with discovering the runes. In a sacrifice to himself, the highest of the gods, he was hung from the world tree Yggdrasil for nine days and nights, pierced by his own spear, in order to learn the wisdom that would give him power in the nine worlds.
The counterfeit forgery is diabolical -- well it is from the devil.
28 posted on 07/15/2011 5:52:23 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos
The battle at hand is to defeat OBama, not to get mired down in re-fighting the Reformation.

This is not an endorsement of any GOP candidate at this time.

29 posted on 07/15/2011 5:56:38 AM PDT by gitmogrunt (Divide and Conquer...Democrat tactics...don't take the bait!!)
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To: Cronos

Lewis suggests that a lot of the Nordic religion was informed by Xty. The idea of Ragnarok, the Nordic “Dies Irae” is possibly borrowed from us.

I think Justin Martyr has it right. We are made for God. Just by contemplating ourselves we will come up with some, even many, misshapen half-truths. Paganism evidently reeks with myths of the dying Lord of Life.

So I am not greatly perturbed by similarities between “us” and “them”. Anyone who farms or fights, indeed, who has parents and children, will be dealing all the time with the mysteries of life and death. But in our Lord and His Gospel these are disclosed in a way which leads to freedom/responsibility, love and joy.

Except, of course, on the Religion Forum ...

:-)


30 posted on 07/15/2011 6:07:09 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Cronos

> The counterfeit forgery is diabolical — well it is from the devil.

As are the divisions among us, my brother.


31 posted on 07/15/2011 6:08:07 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Cronos
Bachman was—but no longer is—a member of a Minnesota Lutheran congregation that belongs to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. The latter, a theologically conservative group, teaches that the Roman Catholic Church embodies the spirit of Antichrist—

Trent.

32 posted on 07/15/2011 6:08:28 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Lee N. Field; Westbrook
As I said, that's a topic for a religious discussion. It has no relevance whatsoever to Michele's political campaign. I doubt the WELS church ever preached this from this pulpit and Michele said she disagreed with it.

the main thing is that this is an attempt by the left to get Catholics and Lutherans to fight and they (the left) hope that this will kill Michele's chances.

Their ploy is obvious and even more obvious is the fact (on another thread in the open forum) that this is working. Like fools we take this bait and start fighting when we should remember who is trying to get us to fight -- folks who want us to sit it out while Obambi gets re-elected

33 posted on 07/15/2011 6:12:37 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

I don’t think it matters. Her positions on issues relevant to me as a religious person are satisfactory to me.


34 posted on 07/15/2011 6:15:21 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("This is a revolution, damn it! We're going to have to offend somebody!" ~ John Adams)
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To: Cronos
A mere Deacon has written a story about this.

I would rather hear the views of Bishops, Archbishops, and Cardinals on this subject.

And I would rather a Michele Bachmann any day over a fruit cake like Nancy Pelosi -- who is CINO -- Catholic in Name Only.

35 posted on 07/15/2011 6:15:33 AM PDT by topher (Traditional values -- especially family values -- are the values that time has proven them to work)
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To: Cronos

Who cares? Let’s talk about Obama ... the one that wasn’t “vetted” like you are trying to vet Bachman.


36 posted on 07/15/2011 6:16:29 AM PDT by ThePatriotsFlag
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To: Cronos
doubt the WELS church ever preached this from this pulpit and Michele said she disagreed with it.

I am a member of the WELS church. My husband has been a member since birth, we have 3 ministers in our immediate family. In my 30 years of membership, I have never heard this mentioned. In his 55 years of membership, my husband has never heard it mentioned. Three ministers have never mentioned and did not even know about the statement until they were in seminary.

BTW, the statement doesn't mean what people think it does. Luther considered the pope the antichrist because at that time, the pope was pretty anti- anything that didnt' bring in money for the church.

This statement, while part of the church, does not shape the sermons.

37 posted on 07/15/2011 6:18:03 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: SoftballMominVA; Lee N. Field
Thanks SoftballMom --> whatever this statement means or doesn't mean, is NOT relevant in context to Bachman's candidacy

As you said, your husband has not heard this mentioned, let alone preached in 55 years in the WELS church.

So, why is it raised by a leftist author? Does he actually give a whatever about Lutheran or Catholic beliefs and differences? Does he really care about any Christian beliefs? Or did he write this to get folks to fight and "hopefully" not vote Bachmann?

She must be really scaring the left if they are using this ploy -- what is stupid is a lot of us are falling for it -- there's another thread here where the usual crowd have made it into an anti-Catholic thread. So, the left's ploy is working...

38 posted on 07/15/2011 6:26:45 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: wolfman23601

Just to to let everybody know, that Martin Luther did write a treatise called “The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope” and is still part of the Lutheran Confessions in the Book of Concord and therefore still part of the Lutheran Doctrine. However, I have been an LCMS Lutheran all my life and it isn’t discussed much other than in the context of doctrinal differernes we have with all denominations.

Basically we look at the treatiste in the context of the times it was written and the fact Luther had problems with the Church and fact Church was trying to kill him and therfore he look at the Catholic church as the Anti-Christ.

Things have changed in 500 years since the Reformation between Catholics and Lutherans and most Lutherans don’t look at the Pope as the Anti-Christ.


39 posted on 07/15/2011 6:27:41 AM PDT by scbison
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: Cronos
So, why is it raised by a leftist author? Does he actually give a whatever about Lutheran or Catholic beliefs and differences? Does he really care about any Christian beliefs? Or did he write this to get folks to fight and "hopefully" not vote Bachmann?

I think it is because it's a delightful little nugget that makes for a sound bite. "Michele Bachmann thinks the Pope is the Anti-Christ," has just enough shading of truth that some explanation is needed.

Actually, I didn't even list all of the WELS connection in my husband's family -- so here is it

1 grandfather - WELS minister in NY since the early 1900's 2 brothers - WELS ministers at times in CA, WI, MI, 2 brothers in law - WELS ministers at times in NJ, NY, WI 1 brother in law - Current professor at the WELS Sem

Last Christmas when we were all together, I brought up this subject out of curiousity (talking about politics is pretty normal with this group) and every one of the ministers agreed that they had never preached on it, and had not even heard of it until they reached seminary.

It's simply not a core doctrine of the church. I mean if people want to really start digging, Luther said some pretty rough stuff about Jews too - but that was hundreds of years ago in a completely different time - it doesn't drive the church politics now.

But it makes for a great soundbite doesn't it?

41 posted on 07/15/2011 6:40:28 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: SoftballMominVA

it makes for a lovely soundbite and for lying about a candidate. it’s sickening and this Catholic intends on telling every Catholic I know about your “on the ground” perspective, if you don’t mind.


42 posted on 07/15/2011 6:50:27 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: SoftballMominVA

The media is clueless! They could have looked at something relevant in WELS and always an issue in any christian denomiation.. women suffarage and the role women...But they looked at that this doctrine...Amazing how clueless and relionless they are.


43 posted on 07/15/2011 7:02:30 AM PDT by scbison
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To: Cronos

> It’s simply not a core doctrine of the church.

It is extra-biblical, thus subject to change over time. The Scripture is not subject to any such change.

Only God knows who the Whore of Babylon is, who the False Prophet is, who THE Anti-Christ is.

Yeah, some of the popes of old were pretty tyrannical. I don’t think that applies today. If anything, I would say they need to be more stern and excommunicate nominal “Catholic” politicians that vote pro-abortion and por-homo-agenda.

Also, all churches, evangelical, Catholic, protestant, whatever, must make the distinction between government taking money by threat of force to “help” the poor, and the charity of a “cheerful giver”.

The New Testament does not teach that the people of God must pass laws to compel people against their will, or their capacity, to “help the poor”.

“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity [that is, for guilt or threat], for God loveth a cheerful giver.”
2nd Corinthians 9:7

Besides, the efficiency quotient for government distribution to the poor is about 10%. That of Christian charities is about 90%. To whom would you rather give?


44 posted on 07/15/2011 7:09:59 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Cronos
I seem to remember the MSM going on about how "George Bush believed all Jews are bound for hell because they are not Christians". They tried to challenge Bush on the assertion in John 14:6 that "Jesus is the only way".

The fact that religions and denominations can disagree and believe each other in error, and yet still get along is lost on the Godless/special interest group/Balkanized left.

45 posted on 07/15/2011 7:24:15 AM PDT by Sans-Culotte ( Pray for Obama- Psalm 109:8)
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To: Cronos
As I said, that's a topic for a religious discussion. It has no relevance whatsoever to Michele's political campaign. I doubt the WELS church ever preached this from this pulpit and Michele said she disagreed with it.

Trent is relevant as to why Reformation era protestants universally, and their heirs often, saw Antichrist in the Pope and/or papacy. WELS being one of those heirs, it is relevant.

46 posted on 07/15/2011 7:27:58 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Cronos

Very disappointing to see this non story being run by catholic publications. I first saw it in the Huff post and laughed b/c the same people calling the Roman Catholic Church evil etc for opposing gay marriage now upset b/c Balchman is “anti-catholic”. What a joke. The issues her church has with Rome have been discussed for 500 years. Why is this news?


47 posted on 07/15/2011 7:31:27 AM PDT by Augustinian monk
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To: SoftballMominVA

You wrote:

“Luther considered the pope the antichrist because at that time, the pope was pretty anti- anything that didnt’ bring in money for the church.”

Sorry, but that is NOT the reason why Luther considered the pope the anti-Christ. Luther felt free to use every possible money connected caricature he could find to attack the pope, but in reality Luther considered the pope the anti-Christ because the pope did not support the heretical doctrines Luther invented. Look at the bottom of this page:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/martinluther.html

Luther was more than willing to accept the pope’s authority - and even suck up to the pope - until the pope definitely denounced Luther’s views.

In 1518 Luther wrote to Pope Leo X:

Wherefore, most blessed Father, I cast myself at the feet of your Holiness, with all that I have and all that I am. Quicken, kill, call, recall, approve, reprove, as you will. In your voice I shall recognize the voice of Christ directing you and speaking in you. If I have deserved death, I shall not refuse to die. For the earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof. He is blessed forever. Amen.

In 1520, Luther wrote this to the pope:

AMONG those monstrous evils of this age, with which I have now for three years been waging war, I am sometimes compelled to look to you and to call you to mind, most blessed father Leo. In truth, since you alone are everywhere considered as being the cause of my engaging in war, I cannot at any time fail to remember you; and although I have been compelled by the causeless raging of your impious flatterers against me to appeal from your seat to a future council—fearless of the futile decrees of your predecessors Pius and Julius, who in their foolish tyranny prohibited such an action—yet I have never been so alienated in feeling from your Blessedness as not to have sought with all my might, in diligent prayer and crying to God, every best gift for you and for your See. But those who have hitherto endeavoured to terrify me with the majesty of your name and authority, I have begun quite to despise and triumph over. One thing I see remaining, which I cannot despise, and this has been the reason of my writing anew to your Blessedness; namely, that I find that blame is cast on me, and that that rashness, in which I am judged to have spared not even your person, is imputed to me as a great offence.

Luther abandoned his loyalty a few weeks later when the document announcing his impending excommunication (unless he recanted) was announced and when talks with a papal nuncio came to nothing.


48 posted on 07/15/2011 7:41:33 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: Cronos
It's getting to the point to where actually believing anything (other than regarding religion as a denatured aspect of ethnoculture that really doesn't mean anything) is going to be considered a form of mental illness.

There are things out there much worse than sharia.

49 posted on 07/15/2011 7:42:21 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: Cronos; Cletus.D.Yokel; bcsco; Nosterrex; HiTech RedNeck
Writing for GetReligion, Mollie Ziegler Hemingway (who is Lutheran) finds it remarkable that Green should be shocked by the beliefs of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. They are Protestants, after all; if they agreed with the Catholic Church they would presumably be Catholics. She argues that the Synod’s official statement shows only that “they’re still Protestants who still don’t believe in the papacy and still think it sits in opposition to the Gospel of Christ.”

I agree with Mollie Hemingway (whom I know).

I am a Lutheran pastor (LCMS). Yes, the Lutheran Confessions do teach that the pope is the antichrist. He has claimed a position of supreme leadership in the church by divine right; he has deceived millions with his false teaching on justification, the central article of the Christian faith; he has anathematized the true teaching of the gospel; and historically he has claimed power in both civil and ecclesiastical realms. (See, in the Lutheran Confessions, the Smalcald Articles and the Treatise on the Power and the Primacy of the Pope for further explanation.) To the extent that the current popes still do the things described in the 1500s, they continue to fit the bill.

However, that Lutherans regard the pope as the antichrist is a *doctrinal* view, not a political position, and it does not have anything to do with disqualifying a Lutheran from holding public office in the state.

50 posted on 07/15/2011 8:02:42 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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