Skip to comments.Amid Bachmann controversy, many Christians cool to conversion therapy for gays
Posted on 07/18/2011 10:35:28 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
When presidential candidate Michele Bachmanns husband, Marcus, addressed accusations that his Christian counseling business encourages homosexual clients to try to change their sexual orientation, he appeared to play down the role of so-called conversion therapy at his clinics.
"Is it a remedy form that I typically would use? Bachmann told Minnesotas Star Tribune newspaper. It is at the client's discretion.
"We don't have an agenda or a philosophy of trying to change someone," Bachmann said, noting that such therapy was not a focus of his two clinics.
Bachmanns seeming ambivalence about conversion therapy - sometimes called reparative therapy - after a weeks worth of news stories that raised questions about whether his clinics promote the practice may illustrate a broader trend in the conservative Christian subculture.
While many evangelicals once viewed conversion therapy as key way to deal with homosexuality, many of the religious movement's leaders and organizations have cooled to the practice in recent years, as more science suggests that homosexuality may be innate and as new therapeutic approaches have emerged.
Evangelicals, in quiet ways, are shifting to this position to where there is just not a lot of support for the change paradigm, said Warren Throckmorton, an influential voice in the world of Christian counseling, referring to so-called change therapy.
In the late 1990s, the debate was clearly, Could gays change from being gay? and the focus was on orientation, and it was a big part of politics, said Throckmorton, an associate professor of psychology at Grove City College, an evangelical school in Pennsylvania.
(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...
I wish everyone would stop backing down to fags and other perpetually offended groups.
we must accept that parading your perversions around is normal.
Therapy implies to me that the person is mentally ill and in need of cognitive change.
I’m not much of a fan of “therapy” for this either, although I don’t oppose it. I can certainly see that biblical counseling and accountability could help a motivated sinner.
That’s what it is. Sin. Like any other sexual sin. I don’t think sin needs “therapy.”
“as more science suggests that homosexuality may be innate and as new therapeutic approaches have emerged.”
What science? And if it’s innate, why is there a need for therapeutic approaches at all?
The problem is unwillingness to call a spade a spade: it’s unnatural by its very definition, it harms those involved, and it’s morally reprehensible.
Remember “Lesbian Chic”? It was a fad in the late 1980’s fueled by rampant Cocaine use. First the girls gave up the Blow and then they became Born Again.
“science suggests that homosexuality may be innate and as new therapeutic approaches have emerged.”
There is no scientific support whatsoever for the so called “gay gene”. Asserting that homosexual behavior is innate and the individual has no control over it denies the principle of free will and the basic difference between men and animals.
Animals have no control over their sexual desires. Human beings do.
“Male mice bred without serotonin lose their preference for females, a report in Nature says.”
Well, we now know why Christ warned us to "Remember Lot's wife." All she did on her way out of Sodomy was look back longingly and she became a sack of salt... Christ did say I have foretold you all things, and course He was NOT accepted then and He also said that as this flesh age winds down the majority would NOT accept Him in those days.
Why does God even bother to breathe life into these creatures?
If it is not being forced upon the gays then the left should shut the heck up about this. I thought they were “pro choice” and all. If someone who is gay wants to choose not to be gay then it this decision. Or course this runs against the whole left paradigm of “We are always right and you are too stupid to run your own life”.
I'm really not sure what they are saying. Everyone of us was born with a sin nature. Some to theft, lying, lust, adultery, drunkeness, homosexuality, etc... Are they saying Christians shouldn't try to help people trapped in the chains of sin to break free?
Freedom comes through the work of God.
God the Son said, 'he who the Son sets free will be free indeed'.
And God the Holy Spirit works with the repentant sinner to enable him to be clean.
What did God mean when He said, 'Be ye Holy for I am Holy'? Do we get a pass because of our sin nature?
What did the Holy Spirit, working through Paul, mean in His exhortation in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Should His last verse have been: 'And such ARE some of you. You were born that way ... fuggetaboutit...'?
These people (if they are truly presenting themselves as 'Evangelists' -- or are merely inventions of the Satan owned Media) are just encouraging people to take the wide road to hell.
The Bachmann’s are not roaming the streets, rounding up gays, and forcing them to repent.
They merely offer help to those seeking it.
I know of some instances where gays were born again, and while some may have continued to struggle with temptations, they were able to live happy, healthy lives free of homosexual acts.
I don’t think this media witch hunt will hurt Michelle.
I think this is an absolutely fatal mistake for any candidate to make and no one should vote for Marcus Bachman for president.
Homosexuality was listed as a disorder in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) of the APA until l973 when it was declassified as a mental disorder. This declassification was totally due to political pressure and not scientific research.
So, as far as I am concerned, homosexuality is a disorder akin to alcoholism, an eating disorder, OCD, etc. Until proven (scientifically) otherwise.
So in that sense it is treatable, but just like any disorder the person has to want to change.
I am saddened by the rhetoric sometimes on this board. I don’t see the point in calling people who have a disorder “sinners”... we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. If someone has an eating disorder, they are sinning when they eat too much (gluttony), but so what? If someone is a homosexual, so what?
The issue is not with homosexuality and the homosexual, the issue is that our society seems to REVERE it now. And in that reverence is going so far as to pass laws to the detriment of society. Homosexual marriage means the State is legislating that children be denied either a mother or a father. Legislating it.
My point is that MB seems to have a heart to want to help people who want to be healed from the disorder called homosexuality. Good for her. We can’t allow the media to excoriate her for doing so. But we also can’t keep up the name calling and rejection of people who are homosexuals. It’s pointless and damaging to us and them.
Of course, at the base of it, is desperate fear. If someone successfully escapes the "happy" life, then they must look at themselves and ask the question, "do I actually have a choice?" If so, then the house of cards that is the victim mindset comes tumbling down and the person become responsible for their life choices.
That is a terrifying proposition to most -- much easier to try and expand the "closet" and force others to accept your lifestyle through laws and intimidation than look in the mirror...
As we're all sinners to a greater or lesser degree, God apparently chose them to live as well.
This is one of the many compromises Christians have made since they traded their sword (KJB) in for a garden tool (NIV NKJV etc.)
RE: This is one of the many compromises Christians have made since they traded their sword (KJB) in for a garden tool (NIV NKJV etc.)
What does the NIV and/or NKJV say about Homosexuality that the KJB does not say?
Put it another way, what NIV or NKJV say that is DIFFERENT from the KJB?
RE: no one should vote for Marcus Bachman for president.
If Michele supports Marcus, are you also saying that no one should vote for Michele Bachmann for President?
“All she did on her way out of Sodomy was look back longingly and she became a sack of salt... “
What did her being turned into salt have to do with sodomy? Not much.
What is salt? It’s inorganic; it doesn’t change; you can “dissolve” it in water, or mix it into something, it still remains unchanged, as salt.
Lot’s wife did not long for sodomy. She longed for the lifestyle Lot was able to provide for her. She was not wanting and willing to head out into a future with no guarantees. G-d had a deeper purpose for Lot and his family and change was the first part of that.
“Looking back” is failing to change, failing to accept change, failing to be allow yourself to be led by G-d into an unknown future.
That’s why Lot’s wife was turned into “salt” (as opposed to being turned into something else) - for desiring to remain fixed and unchanged, even when G-d’s will seeks that change for you.
Why does God even bother to breathe life into these creatures?
Absolutely frikkin’ hilarious. Your question above coupled with your tagline: (”Everything happens as God wants it to...otherwise, things would be different.”)
Sorry, but that’s the kind of stuff that has me LOL.
Ah God gave her a way out of Sodomy to 'live', but she was NOT willing to live... because she did not heed the warning... God was going to destroy the heap and yet for whatever purpose He had planned, gave this woman the opportunity to be saved and she for whatever excuse looked back at 'home' longingly... Now it is most curious that Christ took the time to remind any who will to 'remember Lot's wife'.
“Why does God even bother to breathe life into these creatures?”
Perhaps to show us how desperately off track we as human beings are.
This is a long debate which I don’t want to get into. This issue is settled with me and for most everyone on the other side as well. I’ll tell you some of the things I know and if you’re really interested in coming at the truth you’ll find your way to it.
Regardless of what those versions say about this subject:
A) The attitude which states “how the Bible says what it says is irrelevant.” Easily evolved into “what the Bible says is irrelevant.”
B) What those version change and leave out in some places causes an overall want of truth and want of power within those movements who adopt them and to all Christianity.
C) The very existence of those versions casts doubt on the infallibility and importance of God’s Word.
All three, there are more, lead us to where we are now: “Standards don’t matter, sin doesn’t matter, Satan is not trying to corrupt us through media, music doesn’t matter, soteriology doesn’t matter, what the Bible says doesn’t matter.”
“We, as a society can change what the Bible says to fit with the times.” Satan’s thesis statement which is shared by all of the translators of the new versions.
“I dont see the point in calling people who have a disorder sinners.”
I disagree, Reddy, I don’t think it is helpful to call sinful inclinations or behaviors “disorders.” That isn’t what God calls them.
I think it is actually more helpful to those involved in one sin or a another to have it properly labelled. Calling it a “disorder” absolves you of personal responsibility. Calling it what it is - a sin - calls you to repentance.
I do agree hatred is not necessary. But it is not loving to talk about a man’s sin as though it is epilepsy.
You go to hell for indulging in sexual sin. You don’t go to hell for have eczema.
There is a difference between a sin and a disorder.
Because there is no real choice in liberalism. That’s why they now say being a homo is genetic, so you can never go back.
I understand what you are saying, but disagree.
For instance, using eczema as an comparison is a poor analogy. We’re talking about a disorder of the mind, a biological disorder, not a skin condition.
Just common sense tells you that homosexuals are different (disordered) from “typical” humans. It’s a disorder that manifests in the mind, either through chemical changes or genetics or whatever, no one knows yet. It’s evidenced in behavior. The female characteristics in males and male characteristics in females. Simple knowledge of anatomy indicates that men are not supposed to have sex with men. But the homosexual is drawn to that, I believe through no fault of their own. In comparison, an alcoholic is drawn to alcohol even while knowing that they cannot tolerate the chemical and it will eventually destroy their lives.
The DSM of the APA labeled homosexuality as a disorder (prior to l973). I believe it is, there is no scientific proof otherwise.
Anyway, as you can tell by some of the posts on this thread, “Christians” have a long way to go before they understand that calling someone a sinner does not draw them to Christ.
should say “a PSYCHOLOGICAL” disorder.
“because she did not heed the warning... “
It was not “G-ds warning ‘about the destruction’ it was G-d’s warning “to not look back”.
The warning and its purpose would have applied (in the spirit applies) to any circumstance for which it was/could have been/is given. The specific lesson to lot and his family WAS a “warning to not look back”; to not hold on to the comfort of a life you have when G-d is leading your life through change.
Narrow is the gate. This is simply exposing the FACT that although most Americans claim they are Christian, they are in fact, not.
If you believe in God, who made the heavens and the earth, who called it forth from nothing can’t change a homosexual’s life, then you have no faith. End of story.
Good points, Wuli. I had never considered the question of “why salt?” in just this way ... thanks!
RE: A) The attitude which states how the Bible says what it says is irrelevant. Easily evolved into what the Bible says is irrelevant.
I don’t see how that follows. I’ve read both King James and NIV and I don’t see ANY difference in what translations say about Homosexuality.
If someone does not want to obey scripture, he/she won’t regardless of which translation is presented.
RE: B) What those version change and leave out in some places causes an overall want of truth and want of power within those movements who adopt them and to all Christianity.
But how do you know that these later version CHANGE or LEAVE out things? Could it not be that we have more manuscripts today and as a result of our comparing manuscript with manuscript the later translations actually CLARIFY things?
What major doctrine is affected by the omission of a word for instance that has not been clarified by other verses?
I don’t see how ANY major doctrine of Christianity has been compromised by the NIV or the NKJV at all.
RE: C)The very existence of those versions casts doubt on the infallibility and importance of Gods Word.
Why should they? If any, they are wonderful testimony to the PRESERVATION of God’s word and His Providence in making His word inteligible to people who speak modern English.
“Anyway, as you can tell by some of the posts on this thread, Christians have a long way to go before they understand that calling someone a sinner does not draw them to Christ.”
Reddy, Jesus called people sinners.
Be not conformed to this world.
If it was something you could not help, you would not be liable for hell for it. God isn’t like that.
You can repent of homosexuality. You can repent of alcohol abuse. You can repent of fornication and adultery, too. It is not something that “happens” to you as you innocently sit by. It is chosen, sinful behavior.
Shall I say I was created heterosexual so I get to go fornicate? I can’t do that.
I for one support this. I have seen it work first hand with the son of a friend who was also addicted to drugs for many years. Now, he has finally turned his life around. He is straight, Christian, conservative and proud of it.
If you can infer that from what I wrote, you should try out for the Olympic broad jump squad. What I clearly meant was that Marcus is free to pursue his interest and that Michele is free to pursue hers. I don’t believe she possesses or claims to possess and counseling credentials. She is not accountable for her husband’s work.
There are a lot of great resources on this. I’m not one of them. Did you know there was a lesbian working with the NIV translators? Her job was to make sure the style made sense to modern readers.
Matthew 17:21 KJB This kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Matthew 17:21 NIV Omitted
There are a lot of these.
But aside from all of that you have to ask, who benefits most from changing the Word of God? If the KJB is the Word of God, why change it, if not, God is a liar. The originals? There are no originals.
If Christianity is in steep decline, as evidence by this article, could it be that we’ve accepted a corrupt revelation? If we have accepted a corrupt revelation, what would have been the consequence and would it be any different from what we’re seeing? Why, instead of Moody, Sunday, Spurgeon, Hudson Taylor, William Carey, Judson and Bob Jones do we have TD Jakes, Osteen, Kirk Cameron, Franklin Graham, and Bob Jones III? What changed and why?
RE: Did you know there was a lesbian working with the NIV translators? Her job was to make sure the style made sense to modern readers.
1) Did you know that there was a member of the KJV Westminster Hebrew translating committee by the name of Richard “Dutch” Thomson? He was known as a “’debauched drunken English Dutchman who seldom went to bed one night sober’”
Yet, I do not doubt that inspite of the fact that he had this sinful weakness, the KJV was a splendid translation.
2) Where in the NIV do we have this lesbians influence when it comes to accepting the homosexual lifestyle?
Show me the specific chapter and verse because I READ the NIV and just like the KJV, it is pretty clear to me :
“Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. “ (Leviticus 18:22)
By Lesbian, I believe you are referring to Virginia Ramey Mollenkott.
The problem was, Mollenkott once moved in evangelical circles and gave every impression of being one herself. But she started questioning the biblical teachings on the roles of men and women, and eventually apostatized completely.
Her slippery slide is documented by Mary A. Kassian in her excellent book “The Feminist Gospel : The Movement to Unite Feminism With the Church”. So the NIV hired her as a stylistic consultant in good faith, and dropped her when her heresy became known.
To show that her views didn’t influence the KJV on moral issues, and that the idea that the NIV is soft on homosexuality is arrant nonsense, see this extract from Romans 1:24-28
“Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
Here, homosexual acts are called:
* sinful desires of their hearts
* sexual impurity
* degrading of their bodies
* shameful lusts
* unnatural relations
* indecent acts
* the result of a depraved mind that’s rejected the knowledge of God.
I don’t see how this lesbian had any influence on the NIV at all.
“I think this is an absolutely fatal mistake for any candidate to make and no one should vote for Marcus Bachman for president.”
If the MSM wants to go after First Mates, they should start with the current squatter in the people’s White House. Michelle is even angrier and more radical than BHO, if they’d ever look at & report her history, speeches, writings and affiliations.
Of course, they won’t.
RE: She is not accountable for her husbands work.
I believe she SUPPORTS her husband’s work. That tells me that she BELIEVES in what he does.
But so what? Does this disqualify her from being President?
Only the PC types would think that.
Post of the day!
Why don't we have those threads any more??? I tried to start one months ago and the mods pulled it. I am not a favorite apparently.
“She is not accountable for her husbands work.”
Except that when she gives speeches, she often says she and her husband are business owners and I’m assuming the Bachmann Clinic is the one to which she refers.
“Why, instead of Moody, Sunday, Spurgeon, Hudson Taylor, William Carey, Judson and Bob Jones do we have TD Jakes, Osteen, Kirk Cameron, Franklin Graham, and Bob Jones III?”
I would NOT lump Kirk Cameron in with Jakes or Osteen. I’m very familiar with him, his work, his faith and family values, and the great sacrifices he’s made as an adult in his acting career to remain true to his faith and principles. Ditto for his wife who gave hers up to raise their children. They’re loving parents with a sweet family. His public debates with atheists can be seen all over youube. He put a lot of his own money into the Left Behind movies based on the book series by Jerry Jenkins and Dr. Tim LeHaye about the Tribulation and prophecies of Revelations.
Unlike the generic Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes, Kirk Cameron is unafraid to talk about Christ as Savior, and does so often. He’s talked honestly about his immaturity as an adolescent actor, and has since developed into a fine Christian man.
It’s about who should pay for it. They love taxpayer dollars. Do as I say not as I do.
>>> You go to hell for indulging in sexual sin. You dont go to hell for have eczema.
Maybe you do. There has to be a reason the Devil is also known as Old Scratch.
You’re right about Kirk Cameron, he’s a better Christian than me, but his ministry is limited by a watered down bible in a watered down generation. Before English speaking people started questioning the accuracy of the Word, the English speaking people were winning the world for Christ.