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Heaven For 21 Minutes: Local Couple Tells of Afterlife Experience [Protestant Sees Purgatory]
Lancaster Eagle Gazette | 7/9/11

Posted on 07/26/2011 6:38:10 AM PDT by marshmallow

Article can not be posted due to copyright issues but if you clink on this link you can read all about it.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: afterlife; faithandphilosophy; heaven; nda; ndes; neardeath; neardeathexperience; purgatory; raymoody
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1 posted on 07/26/2011 6:38:17 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Sounds fishy. They don’t stop your circulation for 21 minutes during heart surgery. They might put you on a heart-lung machine while they are tinkering with your ticker, but then you wouldn’t be any more dead than the rest of us. If his circulation really was stopped for 21 minutes, he’d probably have been permanently brain-damaged.

Then, of course, they are cashing in with a book about the “experience”. Color me unconvinced.


2 posted on 07/26/2011 7:03:25 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
'Surgeons were forced to stop the circulation in his heart for 21 mnutes in 2010' Some cardiac surgical procedures require halting the heart muscle activity while work is performed. During such times, a mechanical circulatory system continues blood circulation throughout the rest of the body so that the brain does not suffer hypoxia. He nor his wife claim his body was without circulation for 21 minutes. Color me skeptical that someone would mischaracterize that point.
3 posted on 07/26/2011 7:15:05 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN
He nor his wife claim his body was without circulation for 21 minutes.

Which means he wasn't dead, which means he didn't see heaven or purgatory or any other "after life" thing.

4 posted on 07/26/2011 7:38:33 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody

And I expect that now, since you’ve made such an absolute declaration that he did not see what he claims, that you will prove your assertion using a feasible argument? ... I’m so sorry your proclamation is as empty as you accuse this man’s assertions to be.


5 posted on 07/26/2011 7:42:04 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: marshmallow

With “Heaven Is for Real” being such a bestseller, we can expect lots of “I went to heaven” books in the next couple of years.


6 posted on 07/26/2011 7:47:04 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: Boogieman; marshmallow

I am not going to opine on what this guy did or did not see. I just want to comment on you post re: stopping circulation & a bypass machine.

There are a few cardiac procedures that require complete cirulatory arrest. Meaning, the bypass machine is turned off & the hear is stopped and drained of blood. I have provided anesthesia for these cases numerous times. We do everything to prevent brain dmamage. The body temperature is often lowered to about 17 degress Celsius, the head packed in ice, and high-dose benozdiazepines given. It’s a technique called “deep hypothermic ciruclatory arrest”. It is quite possible that this gentleman underwent such a procedure.

Do I believe in purgatory? Absolutely. Do I think this guy saw it? Who knows?


7 posted on 07/26/2011 7:53:10 AM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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Forgive all the typos. I’m trying to hurry since I’m on my break at work.


8 posted on 07/26/2011 7:54:16 AM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: surroundedbyblue
*****Do I think this guy saw it? Who knows?*****

If someone says they had such an experience, I have to believe they had such an experience...I cannot call them liars...I told a friend one time( when they were telling me about something they experienced and didn't know what to make of it.). I believe you had such an experience, that's all I can say...(it was about her father that had died a few years earlier).

One can choose not to believe them, but cannot say they are lying. Belief is a choice one way or the other...

9 posted on 07/26/2011 8:08:50 AM PDT by goat granny
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To: Boogieman

**When Bob “returned” to the hospital, he said he saw a type of purgatory with hundreds of souls all around him. Purgatory is believed to be a place or state after death in which penitent souls are purified and thereby made ready for heaven.

“There were an awful lot of them — when you looked out the window, they were just wandering,” he said.**


10 posted on 07/26/2011 8:09:55 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: MEGoody

Why? God could have taken him out of his body at anytime He wished to..dead or not.


11 posted on 07/26/2011 8:11:49 AM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo with laughter")
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To: Boogieman
Obviously you need to read this book with such accounts as well as Dr. Jeffrey Long's medical comments.

Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences by Jeffrey Long MD: NOOK Book Cover

12 posted on 07/26/2011 8:12:19 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Long also has a website of NDE accounts.


13 posted on 07/26/2011 8:14:30 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“There were an awful lot of them — when you looked out the window, they were just wandering,” he said.

Ugh. I truly hope I can avoid that place.


14 posted on 07/26/2011 8:14:47 AM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: fabian
God could have taken him out of his body at anytime He wished to..dead or not.

Indeed. But the whole premise of this "vision" is based on a faulty claim that the man was "clinically dead" for 21 minutes. No, he wasn't. They don't stop the circulation in the body to do heart surgery. They bypass the heart and have the circulation conducted by a machine. Therefore, his brain was still getting oxygen. Therefore, he was not clinically dead.

It is very possible this man is telling what he thinks happened. What he fails to realize is that people under general anesthesia often have very weird "dreams".

No. . .if God were going to take this guy to heaven and show him purgatory, He would do so like He did with John, not while he was under general anesthesia.

15 posted on 07/26/2011 8:20:01 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: surroundedbyblue

Interesting post. I had surgery on my aortic valve and ascending aorta seven years ago. I’m told that in addition to the techniques you list, the doctors also used reverse perfusion (pumped oxygenated blood in the reverse direction to maintain oxygen supply to the brain). I’ve had no symptoms of “pump head”.


16 posted on 07/26/2011 8:20:52 AM PDT by GuySwell
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To: MHGinTN
And I expect that now, since you’ve made such an absolute declaration that he did not see what he claims, that you will prove your assertion using a feasible argument?

The entire story is built on a faulty premise. The man claims to have been clinically dead for 21 minutes. During heart surgery, the heart is bypassed, but circulation to the brain still occurs, therefore he was not clinically dead.

Now, you may wish to accept the "dream" this man experienced while under anesthesia as a vision from God. I accept it for what it was - a dream.

Do I think some of what he says about heaven is probably true? Sure. But it isn't anything we haven't already heard from religious teachers or read in the bible. I assume he's listened to teachings and read the bible in the past, so it is no surprise these things popped up in his dream.

17 posted on 07/26/2011 8:23:43 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody

Did you NOT read my post???? There are procedures in which flow to the brain is stopped!

Some people just think they know everything & are too stubborn to admit that they don’t.


18 posted on 07/26/2011 8:27:07 AM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: GuySwell

Yep, aortic valve & ascending aorta are definately two surgeries that require circ arrest. I’m glad you haven’t had any pump head!

The first circ arrest case I did as a grad student was on a 6 year old boy with a congenital cardiac defect. The surgeon was having lots of difficulty, and we had to arrest him for 68 minutes!!! Thankfully, he did quite well afterward. No neuro deficits.


19 posted on 07/26/2011 8:29:29 AM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: MEGoody

I have been under a couple of times, full anesthesia. I do not recall dreaming at all.

I am not really qualified to comment beyond that, but in my cases it was “here one second, black for a second, and then back.”

No visions, no dreams. Just woke up and I had stitches in my mouth and life was good again. Well, after a couple of weeks life was good...


20 posted on 07/26/2011 8:33:08 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (I can't think of anything clever, so I'll just say, "Obama sucks.")
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To: surroundedbyblue
There are a few cardiac procedures that require complete cirulatory arrest.

After reading your post, I did some research on the net regarding the neurological phenomena that can occur as a result. Most people don't remember anything, but those who do often have hallucinations which, as with dreams, are based on bits of information we've garnered from elsewhere. Sometimes they are religious in nature, sometimes they are not.

I did read of a few instances where people could report things that happened in the operating room while they were in circulatory arrest. Clearly, the brain does not stop working, and the person is not dead.

21 posted on 07/26/2011 8:37:34 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody

I’m sorry to have to explain this to you, but science does not yet know exactly what is a dream. When the human braqin is dreaming, the human sou/spirit may be also ‘doing’ something which science has yet to even catch a flicker of. But of course, scientists have been taught/trained to ignore anything which they have not a measure or calculation for. That humans have yet to figure out a way to quantitize and then measure what is evident as now beyond science methodoogy does not mean that the soul/spirit does not exist in a reality which science has yet to address. Your explanation for your absolute is rejected. Now, I will accept that you expressed your opinion, as I am now only expressing my opinion. But you have not a shred to substantiate your absolute assertion.


22 posted on 07/26/2011 8:40:42 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MEGoody; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Vendome; Elsie

I’m sorry to have to explain this to you, but science does not yet know exactly what is a dream. When the human braqin is dreaming, the human sou/spirit may be also ‘doing’ something which science has yet to even catch a flicker of. But of course, scientists have been taught/trained to ignore anything which they have not a measure or calculation for. That humans have yet to figure out a way to quantitize and then measure what is evident as now beyond science methodoogy does not mean that the soul/spirit does not exist in a reality which science has yet to address. Your explanation for your absolute is rejected. Now, I will accept that you expressed your opinion, as I am now only expressing my opinion. But you have not a shred to substantiate your absolute assertion.


23 posted on 07/26/2011 8:41:08 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MEGoody

As I said I am not going to speculate on this man’s vision.

However, you still don’t seem to get what I am saying. “Clearly, the brain does not stop working, and the person is not dead.” Define dead. There are no vital signs - no blood pressure, heart rate, etc. The body temp is 17 degrees Celsius. EEGs are done that show total supression of brain waves & activity. I’m not sure why you feel the brain hasn’t stopped working. We supress it to where we cannot detect activity with a bispectral index. Could the patient be dreaming? I’d say unlikely; but your assertion that they’re not “dead” is pretty much of a stretch. You have no idea what went on during this man’s surgery.


24 posted on 07/26/2011 8:44:02 AM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: Vermont Lt

I’ve been under general anesthesia five times and my experience has always been as you described. No dreams, no visions, no sense of elapsed time. That being said, I accept that others may have experienced something different during their times under general anesthesia and/or circulatory arrest. One of the interesting things about articles of faith and belief in life after death is that they can’t be proven or disproven through scientific means.


25 posted on 07/26/2011 8:45:02 AM PDT by GuySwell
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To: MEGoody

“They don’t stop the circulation in the body to do heart surgery.” As the poster above who provides anesthesia for the very procedures you claim do not happen has pointed out (see post #7 above), you are wrong but too stubborn to budge from your error.


26 posted on 07/26/2011 8:46:11 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: marshmallow

Nobody ever has an out-of-body experience where they end up in hell, or purgatory and then return.

Why? I suspect it’s because their mind “sees” what it wants to see.


27 posted on 07/26/2011 8:48:42 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: MHGinTN
too stubborn to budge

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

28 posted on 07/26/2011 8:55:51 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: RFEngineer
Nobody ever has an out-of-body experience where they end up in hell, or purgatory and then return.

Not true.

29 posted on 07/26/2011 8:56:20 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)
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To: MHGinTN; MEGoody; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Elsie

I don't get it.  How can there be spirits visiting anyone?

His wife is some sort of evangelist and Pastor
 
She is apparently trying to tell his story in her newly-released book, "The Spirit of the Soul".
 

Apparently "He" can't reveal some of his dream.

He aludes to some restriction on telling us "Everything" about his dream.

Apparently he saw Heaven and Purgatory in his dream, with all sorts of lost souls, hundreds in fact, around him.

 

Liar - Deceiver - Fraud and now book seller.

I had one wild azz dream when I nearly died in an operation 14 years ago.  But, I'm guessing I really wasn't inside the Death Star, I really can't fly between decks, I didn't really have a light saber, that I was fighting and winning, etc. 

The only dream I ever had that 100% real and that I had experienced it but, it was just that -  A Dream.

 

Luke 16:19-31 (King James Version)

 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


30 posted on 07/26/2011 8:57:06 AM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: RFEngineer

Actually at least one fellow did write a book detailing a short period he spent viewing hell.

If these reports stemmed just from bizarre neurological responses to anesthesia, as some claim, they would not all have such consistency.


31 posted on 07/26/2011 8:58:28 AM PDT by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: ottbmare

“If these reports stemmed just from bizarre neurological responses to anesthesia, as some claim, they would not all have such consistency.”

Why not? If the religious and cultural teachings about heaven are similar - and they are - you would expect such dreams to be consistent. If you anesthetize a human brain that is pretty much consistent with every other human brain, then you would expect consistency.


32 posted on 07/26/2011 9:15:48 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Future Snake Eater

“Not true.”

Ok, so there was at least one person honest with themselves about their life before they went under the knife.....and his/her dreams reflected the cultural references that they were taught about hell.


33 posted on 07/26/2011 9:18:20 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: MHGinTN
you are wrong but too stubborn to budge from your error.

Yes, I was wrong. See my post 21 and do some research of your own. But no, you'd rather jump on the bandwagon than admit that what this guy experienced was a hallucination.

Go head, be gullible. There are lots of people out there who fall for this kind of stuff.

34 posted on 07/26/2011 9:20:53 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: surroundedbyblue
EEGs are done that show total supression of brain waves & activity.

Yes, that's why people can report events that occurred in the operating room while their circulation was stopped.

Could the patient be dreaming? I’d say unlikely.

On the contrary, very likely based on the research I did after your post. Hallucinations, some religious some not, are common (except in cases where the person doesn't remember anything at all or has reported events as they unfolded in the operating room).

35 posted on 07/26/2011 9:24:09 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: GuySwell

No doubt that stuff happens to some people.

I have enough “shining” moments to convince me that there is another world after death.

I am sure the skeptics could explain most of them, and I do not discuss them with anyone other than my wife.

I think these are great stories, but I don’t think I need to drop money on a book to describe it.

When it comes to surgery, I am more concerned about getting the needle and then not going to sleep. That would suck. I guess the vision then would be dollar signs.


36 posted on 07/26/2011 9:27:19 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (I can't think of anything clever, so I'll just say, "Obama sucks.")
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To: MHGinTN
I’m sorry to have to explain this to you, but science does not yet know exactly what is a dream.

Are you saying a dream could be something actually occurring to someone because they spontaneously died and then as spontaneously came back to life during sleep? Wow, I didn't know George Clooney cared so much. :)

Your explanation for your absolute is rejected.

You are, of course, free to believe as you wish. I don't believe this guy visited heaven or purgatory, so of course won't be wasting money on the book. I'd rather read the scriptures from God. In them, I know that the truth is given.

37 posted on 07/26/2011 9:28:08 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody

But do you believe that with God all things are possible and perhaps this person really did see heaven and Purgatory and then get sent back to earth?

Would you believe it if you read it from a doctor’s pen? (BTW, I don’t think he is Catholic — and he has medical explanations too.)??

Then read the book I posted — It’s probably in your public library.


38 posted on 07/26/2011 9:29:22 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: surroundedbyblue
Did you NOT read my post????

Yes, I did. Did you read mine?

39 posted on 07/26/2011 9:30:10 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Religion Moderator

Consistency?


40 posted on 07/26/2011 9:34:17 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Salvation
But do you believe that with God all things are possible

Yes.

and perhaps this person really did see heaven and Purgatory and then get sent back to earth?

No. God would choose someone "in the spirit" as John was, not someone under general anesthetic, to receive a vision.

Would you believe it if you read it from a doctor’s pen?

I would believe that the individual had a hallucination or "dream", not a vision from God.

Then read the book I posted.

Nah, I'll stick with the scriptures where I know the truth about heaven is being spoken.

41 posted on 07/26/2011 9:34:49 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: marshmallow
FR never ceases to amaze me.

I was fearful that this thread might give rise to a flame war about the existence of Purgatory but Purgatory has not even been mentioned.

Instead, it's turned into a Colloquium of the American Society of Anesthetists, Neurologists and Physiologists on the subject of when death occurs.

42 posted on 07/26/2011 9:36:44 AM PDT by marshmallow (.)
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To: Salvation
But do you believe that with God all things are possible

Yes.

and perhaps this person really did see heaven and Purgatory and then get sent back to earth?

No. God would choose someone "in the spirit" as John was, not someone under general anesthetic, to receive a vision.

Would you believe it if you read it from a doctor’s pen?

I would believe that the individual had a hallucination or "dream", not a vision from God.

Then read the book I posted.

Nah, I'll stick with the scriptures where I know the truth about heaven is being spoken.

43 posted on 07/26/2011 9:37:20 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody

“No. God would choose someone “in the spirit” as John was ...” Telling God how to run His Universe is a bit presumptuous, wouldn’t you say? And now you might help us all by explaining what a dream is, how it is generated by the physical brain, and how a physical brain accomplishes this event when measuring systems show all brainwave activity has been stopped for a medical purpose?


44 posted on 07/26/2011 9:47:01 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: GuySwell

I have had bypass surgery- no recall of any afterlife. Once before I had contacted a possible fatal infection- same as puppeteer Jim Hendrix died from. Doctor told my wife that if I had come to the hospital only a few hours later I would have been dead. I recall quite clearly, being unconscious, of going down a long brightly lit hallway, then making a left turn to another bright hallway until ending up at a very bright corner where someone stopped me and asked if I really wanted to make the left hand turn to the next very bright light. My recall is not clear at this point but for some reason the ‘guide’ said I was not ready to make the turn and I should go back. I next recall being patted on the face by the recovery nurse.


45 posted on 07/26/2011 10:02:41 AM PDT by noinfringers2
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To: RFEngineer

Possibly. Or it actually happened. Guess we’ll all find out.


46 posted on 07/26/2011 10:53:39 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)
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To: Vermont Lt
I am not really qualified to comment beyond that, but in my cases it was “here one second, black for a second, and then back.”

Same here on a couple of occasions. I believe that in these NDEs, it's just the brain shutting down. How many time when someone THOUGHT they were going to die, they saw their life flash in front of them? (Maybe they were just "uploading" to a bigger CPU.)

I find it interesting that Christians always see Jesus (even children say they saw "baby Jesus"), but Muslims or Buddhists never do - dunno who/what they see, but I think it's just a natural mechanism that gets a religious twist put on it.

47 posted on 07/26/2011 10:58:20 AM PDT by Oatka ("A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." –Bertrand de Jouvenel)
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To: RFEngineer
Nobody ever has an out-of-body experience where they end up in hell, or purgatory and then return.

Not true. Here's one which was posted on FR a few years ago:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1476412/posts

48 posted on 07/26/2011 11:18:31 AM PDT by annie laurie (All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost)
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To: marshmallow

Wow. See what happens when too much spagetti sauce is consumed before a near death experience? :-)


49 posted on 07/26/2011 11:22:37 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Future Snake Eater

“Possibly. Or it actually happened. Guess we’ll all find out.”

Which is sort of the point....


50 posted on 07/26/2011 11:24:03 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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