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Pink Smoke Gets in Your Eyes
Insight Scoop ^ | July 29, 2011 | Gail Deibler Finke

Posted on 07/30/2011 10:13:06 AM PDT by NYer

The woman next to me loved the title: Pink Smoke Over the Vatican. I know, because she said, "Great title!" with a knowing laugh.


There were a lot of knowing laughs in the theater Saturday morning, when the one-hour independent documentary about women's ordination had its Cincinnati debut. Perhaps the biggest came when the narrator explained that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is the modern day name for The Holy Office of the Inquisition—which, though true, does sound a bit over the top. But not as over the top as clandestine ordinations on ships by incognito bishops.


And that's what the film is about: Women who want to be priests, some of whom claim to have been ordained. Sympathetic bishops, they say, have helped them. The first "ordinations" of the infamous "Danube Seven" were done in Germany in 2002—on a boat, so that they were on no bishop's territory, and in secret, so the bishops involved would not be found out. Since then, nine "ordination" ceremonies have been held, most for "priests" but many for "deacons" and ten "bishops." Because no male bishops are now involved, assuming any really were to begin with, the ceremonies are no longer secret. They are also no longer held on boats, but take place in synagogues, non-Catholic churches, and hotels. The Association of Roman Catholic Womenpriests (RCWP) claims to have 100 women in training and plans to have several more "ordinations" in 2011.


Director Jules Hart, whose previous efforts for EyeGoddessFilms include a documentary about at-risk youth "creating a totem pole as a symbol of peace and healing," says she made the film because she was captivated by the stories of Catholic women longing for the priesthood. On Saturday, about 200 people, most of them women, crowded into the 220-seat theater to hear those stories. The manager told me that made it one of the most successful private screenings the theater has ever held.


Pink Smoke is on the independent film circuit and may be coming to a theater near you. If you go, what will you see? A lot of kindly white-haired ladies, both on screen and in person—and some angry women thrown in for balance. A lot of talk about feelings and justice, a lot of half-truths and wishful thinking, and a couple of jabs at men. But it's what you won't see that is most important.


Pink Smoke Over the Vatican begins with a lot of unsupported claims that women's ordination was once accepted and common in the Church, but that evidence of this was "all but eradicated" in a Dan Brown-type conspiracy of medieval men. For the record—in case any readers are wondering—even this author with a minor in medieval history can tell you that such a thing would be logistically impossible.


The film then goes on to profile several women RCWP claims to have ordained, including one "bishop," and their supporters. Prominent among the supporters is Fr. Roy Bourgeois, the excommunicated Maryknoll priest, who shakes his finger at the mean old Church and calls the priesthood a "boys club." He is given almost as much screen time as Patricia Fresen, a cheerful, grandmotherly South African woman who claims to have been the third woman ordained a bishop. She had to leave the Dominican order after (as the Church puts it) attempting ordination and refusing to recant. Her delighted and bemused account of her episcopal "ordination" was, for me, the highlight of a surreal film experience.


But not all of the women profiled were so engaging. One was so angry she practically set the screen on fire, and another barely managed to speak as she fought back tears of sorrow for her oppressed sisters. On the whole, "priest" or layperson, the people profiled talked about their feelings. They felt called to priesthood, they felt excluded from power, they felt overjoyed at the idea of women at the altar, they felt felt FELT.


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: feminists; heresy; ordination
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 07/30/2011 10:13:13 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...


Can women be ordained to the priesthood? This is a question which provokes much debate in our modern world, but it is one to which the Church has always answered "No." The basis for the Church’s teaching on ordination is found in the New Testament as well as in the writings of the Church Fathers.

While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor. 11:1–16), they could not teach or have authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:11–14), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (1 Cor. 14:34–38).

The following quotations from the Church Fathers indicate that women do play an active role in the Church and that in the age of the Fathers there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but that these women were not ordained.

The Fathers rejected women's ordination, not because it was incompatible with Christian culture, but because it was incompatible with Christian faith. Thus, together with biblical declarations, the teaching of the Fathers on this issue formed the tradition of the Church that taught that priestly ordination was reserved to men. Throughout medieval times and even up until the present day, this teaching has not changed.

Further, in 1994 Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

And in 1995 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in conjunction with the pope, ruled that this teaching "requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25:2)" (Response of Oct. 25, 1995).

The following quotations from the Fathers constitute a part of the tradition on which this infallible teaching rests.

Women and the Priesthood

2 posted on 07/30/2011 10:14:45 AM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

They asked me how I knew
My true love was true
Ohhhhh, I of course replied
Something here inside cannot be denied

They said someday you’ll find
All who love are blind
Oh, when your heart’s on fire
You must realize
Smoke gets in your eyes

So I chaffed them and I gaily laughed
To think they could doubt my love
Yet today my love has flown away
I am without my love

Now laughing friends deride
Tears I can not hide
Ohhhhh, so I smile and say
When a lovely flame dies
Smoke gets in your eyes
Smoke gets in your eyes


3 posted on 07/30/2011 10:15:48 AM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?))
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To: NYer

Thank you, Vatican II


4 posted on 07/30/2011 10:16:13 AM PDT by famousdayandyear
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To: NYer

Sounds like instant excommunication to me, whether the official imprimatur has yet been added to it or not.


5 posted on 07/30/2011 10:17:55 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: NYer

Were any of the “womenbishops” “ordained” by Catholic bishops?


6 posted on 07/30/2011 10:23:24 AM PDT by dangus
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To: NYer

My (Protestant) minister is female, and she’s fabulous. I think the Catholic Church is wrong on this question - carrying over a cultural detail from 2,000 years ago that is not central to scripture and should not be central to doctrine.

That said, my opinion is entirely irrelevant. The Church is the sole authority on who is a Catholic priest. These women should be Catholics and follow the Church’s rules or protestants and admit honestly that they are not Roman Catholic. I see no point in their current dishonest path.


7 posted on 07/30/2011 10:28:48 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: dangus

Would women priests molest little boys and girls?


8 posted on 07/30/2011 10:28:48 AM PDT by Aroostook25
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To: NYer
Pink Smoke also throws in Galileo (of course) and half-truths or outright lies about the history of priestly celibacy, several actions of the last two popes, and (again of course) the sexual abuse of minors.

Yeah, when we've changed from male priests molesting kids and having their deeds covered up by a male bishop to female priests "introducing" young girls to their repressed lesbian sexuality like something out of the Vagina Monologues and having their deeds praised by a female bishop, that will be a HUUUUUGE improvement. /Sarcasm

9 posted on 07/30/2011 10:30:15 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Anyone who says we need illegals to do the jobs Americans won't do has never watched "Dirty Jobs.")
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To: NYer
Women who want to be priests, some of whom claim to have been ordained. Sympathetic bishops, they say, have helped them. The first "ordinations" of the infamous "Danube Seven" were done in Germany in 2002—on a boat, so that they were on no bishop's territory, and in secret, so the bishops involved would not be found out.

I'm gonna start a mailorder business to save them the trouble. Just send in two boxtops from your favorite grocery store box wine and 25 dollars to: Womanpriest, Box 5000, Ansonia Station.

In return you get a genuine certificate, suitable for framing, declaring you a priest; a rare prized facsimile of the papal ring; and a complimentary pack of wafers to help you get started.

10 posted on 07/30/2011 10:31:00 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Aroostook25

Evidently you are not aware of the huge number of molestations that take place in public schools. Much larger than any religious sect.


11 posted on 07/30/2011 10:31:57 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Aroostook25
Most of them are lesbians, so probably not, at least at first.
12 posted on 07/30/2011 10:33:53 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Aroostook25

Two words: Vagina Monologues. Just change the teacher to a friendly neighborhood priestess and you will get what these people are headed for.

I would mention the title of the section within the Vagina Monologues I am talking about, but the mods would delete my post for foul language.


13 posted on 07/30/2011 10:34:36 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Anyone who says we need illegals to do the jobs Americans won't do has never watched "Dirty Jobs.")
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To: Pollster1

Glad you like your protestant female minister.

You are correct. These women need to stop trying to change the catholic faith and go join the Protestants if they want to be ministers.

They aren’t Catholics.If they don’t like the rules they should move on. I would have more respect for them if they did.


14 posted on 07/30/2011 10:40:26 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: famousdayandyear
Thank you, Vatican II

Actually, if you visit the link I posted on Women and the Priesthood, you will discover that this nonsense dates back to the very beginning. It is not new.

15 posted on 07/30/2011 10:42:19 AM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: hinckley buzzard; Aroostook25

See my post 13.

Lesbians not only molest just like eveyone else, they celebrate it in plays about the empowerment of women.

I’d like to note the section I’m talking about finishes up with the rape victim saying that if what she experienced was rape, it was “good rape.” That’s where feminism is today, folks, and these womenpriest moonbats are just a facet of it, another “look at us warm and fuzzy caring types” con like the “peace” movement and all those nice, loving abortion clinic workers.


16 posted on 07/30/2011 10:42:19 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Anyone who says we need illegals to do the jobs Americans won't do has never watched "Dirty Jobs.")
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To: Pollster1
My (Protestant) minister is female, and she’s fabulous. I think the Catholic Church is wrong on this question - carrying over a cultural detail from 2,000 years ago that is not central to scripture and should not be central to doctrine.

So do you think that you are more compassionate and just than our Lord Jesus Christ? It is His action that we are following, not that of some man-made rule imposed by the Church after the fact.

17 posted on 07/30/2011 10:51:37 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: NYer

Seems like the women could seek out the many modern Protestant Christian religions that worship a Savior that welcomes women as human beings of equal capacity and value to males and that welcomes women to the priesthood. Run to the Christ with the open arms.


18 posted on 07/30/2011 10:57:07 AM PDT by marsh2
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To: Pollster1
My (Protestant) minister is female, and she’s fabulous. I think the Catholic Church is wrong on this question - carrying over a cultural detail from 2,000 years ago that is not central to scripture and should not be central to doctrine.

And thank you for providing an opportunity to explain why women can never serve as priests in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

The times have often favored a female priesthood and never more so than when Christ ordained his first priests, nearly 2,000 years ago. Virtually all the pagan religions of his day had priestesses, and it would have been entirely normal and natural for him to choose women for this task. He had, moreover, a number of excellent potential candidates, from his own Mother, who accompanied him at his first miracle and stood with him as he suffered on the cross, to Mary Magdalene or the women of Bethany. Instead, he chose only men, and he remained immovable on this, continuing right to the end to exhort and train them all, leaving thus a Church which turned out to be safely founded on a rock. From those twelve men a direct line of apostolic succession has given the Catholic Church the bishops and priests it has today.

In the Church’s latest statement on this matter, Pope John Paul II, using his full authority as the successor of Peter, stated categorically that the Church cannot—not will not, but cannot —ordain women, now or in the future. The Catechism of the Catholic Church sets it out clearly, quoting the decree Inter insigniores:

"Only a baptized man [ vir] receives sacred ordination. The Lord Jesus chose men [ viri] to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible."

We need to understand that Christians believe God to be the essence of divine omnipotence. To put it crudely, he doesn’t make mistakes. When he became incarnate as a human being, he did so at a precise and exact moment in human history, which had been planned from all eternity. From the beginning, God had chosen that there would be a Jewish people, among whom his divine Son would be born. Their own priestly traditions would form part of the background and culture which would help them—and others—to see and know him. Every detail about the Incarnation was known in the mind of God. He was born into the fullness of time.

You can read more about this here.

19 posted on 07/30/2011 11:01:32 AM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: Petrosius
So do you think that you are more compassionate and just than our Lord Jesus Christ? It is His action that we are following, not that of some man-made rule imposed by the Church after the fact.

Not at all; I fall short by far too much in both areas. What I think is that His choice of twelve men was culturally determined and not spiritually directive to us. He never chose a woman as a disciple, but he also never used the Internet to spread the Word. I think His non-ordination of women is a cultural detail, while His non-ordination of gays is a spiritual necessity. In any case, it's not my place to make that choice for the Roman Catholic Church, nor is it the place of a few rogue "bishops" with more loyalty to politics than to the Pope. The bishops are wrong to do this without authority.

20 posted on 07/30/2011 11:02:16 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: dangus
Were any of the “womenbishops” “ordained” by Catholic bishops?

Read the article in its entirety.

21 posted on 07/30/2011 11:03:29 AM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

Sorry for being an uneducated dolt; back in the 50s/60s/70s never heard of ordination for women. I figured it’s some kind of new age feminist woman power sort of thing


22 posted on 07/30/2011 11:41:40 AM PDT by famousdayandyear
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To: Pollster1
that is not central to scripture

How many of the Apostles were women?

My (Protestant) minister is female, and she’s fabulous.

Has that "fabulous" woman explained what defense strategy she plans to mount during her particular judgment?

"Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

23 posted on 07/30/2011 11:44:14 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Aroostook25
naughtyteacher
24 posted on 07/30/2011 11:47:52 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Aroostook25
Why wouldn't they? They reject Catholic faith and morals --- and who would be surprised if unfaithful women acted on a par with unfaithful men?

Here's a proposed motto: Equal Hell for Equal Hubris.

25 posted on 07/30/2011 12:19:24 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Pollster1

I see no point in their current dishonest path.
///
awesome post. my compliments, to you and your minister.
(i like how you say your opinion, without attacking.
i also respect my Christian brothers and sisters,
as long as they treat my church with the same respect.)

...and precisely because of your good points about honesty,
i question their true motives.

many many people split off from Lutheran churches, and form their own synod, etc.
and with the current debate in many churches,
about gay clergy, we see many congregations splitting.

so, why don’t these people, simply split, and from their own “Reformed Catholic Church” or something?
(or join an Anglican type church, which is similar, but permits women priests.)

instead, these, and other non-profits who object to church teachings, insist on calling themselves Catholic.
i think the people behind it, wish to destroy the Church,
just as many liberals in the USA with to destroy ALL Christian churches.


26 posted on 07/30/2011 12:25:51 PM PDT by Elendur (It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Aroostook25

quite possibly yes, if care is not taken at the time of entrance to the seminaries. After all we read a lot about male AND female teachers sleeping with their students.


27 posted on 07/30/2011 12:29:34 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Pollster1

Not central to scripture? How God laid out the authority of the local church is not central? Wow, I don’t know what Bible you read. It isn’t the one God wanted you to read. “Hey God, I know your Holy word laid out that only men should be priests but well, we didn’t care and did our own thing.”


28 posted on 07/30/2011 12:29:39 PM PDT by sigzero
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To: marsh2
"...welcomes women as human beings of equal capacity and value to males.."

The Catholic Church considers laypeople and priests, women and men, adults and children, born and unborn, to be fundamentally equal in their human dignity. Ordaining some adult men as deacons, priests or bishops does not mark them as fundamentally superior, as you, perhaps, assume.

That mistaken assumption comes from seeing the priesthood as a status thing. And it's almost an inevitable mistake in a society where so many are concerned about status --- who can claim immunity from this tendency? --- and where so few are interested in being poor, chaste, and obedient.

Many would roll their eyes at this, which, of course, illustrates what I mean.

Yet the really important and really interesting people in Catholicism are not the priests, nor the popes, but the saints.

29 posted on 07/30/2011 12:32:41 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("There is only one tragedy in life: not to have been a saint." - Leon Bloy)
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To: Pollster1
your opinion is hardly irrelevant. On the contrary it is invaluable.

Women ministers as in preachers or teachers -- it is against what St. Paul said, there's no getting around that

HOWEVER, if you put that big statement aside (which is pretty much impossible, but just for hypothetical statement), women ministers/preachers/teachers are just as capable if not more capable than many men. In fact I'd also wager that a higher % of women get to heaven

So, ministers, administrators, I got no problem about (w.r.t. preachers, I think they're good, but Paul is clear that it's no, so I say no), but priests are something different.

the priest are those who are the instruments of the eucharist, where the REAL, TRUE body of Christ is present. This is taken as continuation of what Christ celebrated.

hence there just cannot be a priestess.

I am fully in support of nuns getting more administrative control - many convents etc. are run very well. Even maybe ministerial aspects. But as priestesses, no

30 posted on 07/30/2011 12:34:14 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Pollster1; NYer

What I think is that His choice of twelve men was culturally determined and not spiritually directive to us. He never chose a woman as a disciple, but he also never used the Internet to spread the Word.
///
excellent point. certainly he would know, that many men back then, wouldn’t accept the authority of a woman.
makes sense...
except... He is Jesus.
he chose tax collectors, and touched lepers!
he talked to the woman at the well, and let her give him water. he intervened with the woman about to be stoned.

CLEARLY indicating, Jesus wasn’t afraid to go against the culture.
clearly indicating, that he was NOT bound, by culture.

and, even the early church followed the clear example of Jesus.
there were early church leaders that were women.
but not Priests.
so again, it is clear that it wasn’t for cultural reasons,
or women wouldn’t have been allowed to take leadership roles either.
it was only the Priesthood that was excluded.

one simply must conclude, that our Lord and Savior was FULLY aware of all of this?

and he chose only men for Apostles and the Priesthood, with laying on hands and the coming of the Holy Spirit.


31 posted on 07/30/2011 12:35:10 PM PDT by Elendur (It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Pollster1
May I ask you a question -- I debate this with my Lutheran brethern in Christ. I like the LCMS position which is very orthodox, however I know a very Christian freeper here who is a member of the LCMC and they have pastoresses

Now my objection to him was that every Christian group that has first allowed pastoresses etc. eventually moves to having lesbian married pastoresses with gay partners.

How long has your denomination had pastoresses? And what is it's position on homosexual activity and homosexual ministers and marriage?

32 posted on 07/30/2011 12:36:45 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Yet the really important and really interesting people in Catholicism are not the priests, nor the popes, but the saints.
///
beautiful beautiful post !!! (the entire thing!)


33 posted on 07/30/2011 12:37:35 PM PDT by Elendur (It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Venturer
If they don’t like the rules they should move on.

Quite correct. There is the ECUSA they can head off towards

34 posted on 07/30/2011 12:37:47 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Pollster1
Thank you for your thoughts here, to which I would like to add what may be some useful counterpoints:

"In any case, it's not my place to make that choice for the Roman Catholic Church, nor is it the place of a few rogue "bishops" with more loyalty to politics than to the Pope. The bishops are wrong to do this without authority." Good point, there. Very good point. "This one is not far from the Kingdom." :o)

35 posted on 07/30/2011 1:15:59 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("There is only one tragedy in life: not to have been a saint." - Leon Bloy)
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To: Elendur

Thank you for your gracious words :o)


36 posted on 07/30/2011 1:37:28 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("There is only one tragedy in life: not to have been a saint." - Leon Bloy)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
That mistaken assumption comes from seeing the priesthood as a status thing.

I'm not sure how the Catholics do it, but I have seen an Orthodox Bishop being vested in front of the congregation. Several Deacons put various articles and bindings over his whole body while he stands mute - I think he has silent prayers to recite.

The effect is that of a surrender of the will and, if you will, laying down his life. My reaction was not "Look what an honor he has to be served like that."

No, it was "That poor man. May God have mercy on him."

37 posted on 07/30/2011 1:48:51 PM PDT by don-o (Abolish FReepathons. Be a monthly donor.)
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To: Cronos

Head any damned place they want.

I about got a bellyful of change.

I like tradition ,and rules that stay the same for the whole game.

These nuns who want to change the rules should take their Dyke butts on down the road.


38 posted on 07/30/2011 1:59:31 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: NYer

Can women be ordained to the priesthood?

- - - - -
No. And I do not get why these radical feminists are so insistent. If they want to be priestesses, leave the Holy Mother Church and become Episcopalian.

This is not about Christ, this is about them and its disgusting. I would like to see more excommunications regarding this.


39 posted on 07/30/2011 2:05:09 PM PDT by reaganaut ( "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Cronos; Elendur; sigzero; A.A. Cunningham; NYer

I have read and re-read all of your posts, and I will give them a great deal of thought, prayer, and study (that’s my primary topic for tomorrow, although one day will not be enough time). I do not consider it productive to go into too much detail on this topic or any religious topic on any public board. While general comments like those so far are harmless, there are lurkers on both conservative political and conservative religious boards who are always happy to use what they find in discussions like this to hurt God’s church as a whole. I have no desire to give the other side ammunition. We are facing FAR greater threats today than ever in America’s history, and possibly the worst in the Church’s history.


40 posted on 07/30/2011 2:05:31 PM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: NYer

They felt called to priesthood, they felt excluded from power, they felt overjoyed at the idea of women at the altar, they felt felt FELT.

- - - - -
Feelings over facts always leads to heresy.


41 posted on 07/30/2011 2:08:44 PM PDT by reaganaut ( "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: NYer
They felt called to priesthood, they felt excluded from power, they felt overjoyed at the idea of women at the altar, they felt felt FELT.

Here is some industrial felt for their perusal.


42 posted on 07/30/2011 2:09:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Pollster1
That said, my opinion is entirely irrelevant. The Church is the sole authority on who is a Catholic priest. These women should be Catholics and follow the Church’s rules or protestants and admit honestly that they are not Roman Catholic. I see no point in their current dishonest path.


43 posted on 07/30/2011 2:11:37 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Pollster1
That said, my opinion is entirely irrelevant. The Church is the sole authority on who is a Catholic priest. These women should be Catholics and follow the Church’s rules or protestants and admit honestly that they are not Roman Catholic. I see no point in their current dishonest path.


44 posted on 07/30/2011 2:11:37 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: marsh2

Just because men and women fill different roles doesn’t mean that women are “less valued”.


45 posted on 07/30/2011 2:14:36 PM PDT by Politicalmom ("President Fox's vision for an open border is a vision I embrace"- Rick Perry)
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To: don-o
Excellent point. I was there too, and saw the Bishop's vesting and had exactly the same reaction: "Good Lord, the poor guy!"

It's like, in a Catholic ordination, the prostration of the Ordinandi face down on the floor while the Litany of the Saints is chanted. It's sure not an expression of "one guy's personal individuality, initiative, and genius" but the exact opposite: the submitting of himself as a beggar and a bound man.

46 posted on 07/30/2011 2:17:23 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (All human nature vigorously resists grace: grace changes us and the change is painful.- F. O'Connor)
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To: marsh2; Pollster1; NYer; Salvation

I am an Evangelical and I have serious issues with women as ministers and priests. It isn’t biblical.

Women in other areas of ministry I have no problem with (I am female and work in counter cult ministries) but women should be constrained to axillary ministerial functions (like nuns in the Catholic church) rather than being head of congregations.

My inlaws attend a church with a woman ‘pastor’ and while I like her, and her sermons, when we attend with them, I think of it more as Sunday School rather than see her as a ‘pastor’. It would be unbiblical for me to submit myself to a woman pastor so I will not do it.


47 posted on 07/30/2011 2:26:22 PM PDT by reaganaut ( "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Pollster1
Pollster1, your thoughts are always intelligently and charitably expressed, and I know I am not the only one around here who notices and appreciates that.

I agree 100% with you about not giving the other side ammunition: "the other side" meaning the Enemy of Souls, about whom we have been warned. He loves public controversies amongst Christians, who move from conflict to contempt and end up spitting and tearing at each other like demons.

Have a good Sunday, and thank you for a mutually thought-provoking discussion. I regard you as an ally and hope to be worthy to be so regarded by you.

48 posted on 07/30/2011 2:36:13 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (My two cents' worth.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Have a good Sunday, and thank you for a mutually thought-provoking discussion. I regard you as an ally and hope to be worthy to be so regarded by you.

Absolutely.

49 posted on 07/30/2011 2:38:06 PM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: Pollster1
The "cultural detail" argument doesn't wash.

As somebody explained up thread, the cultural norm at the time was priestesses, although the Jews did not follow that custom.

Anyhow, Christ broke cultural norms all over the place, from healing the sick on the Sabbath and allowing his disciples to pull and eat grain walking through the fields on the Sabbath, to consorting with tax-collectors and the Syro-Phoenician woman and publicans and prostitutes, to calling the Pharisees 'whited sepulchres' and driving the money changers out of the Temple.

Christ had no hesitance defying the culture, and if he had wanted to call women to the priesthood, he would have. After all, his blessed mother and Mary Magdalene were right there and the obvious choices, had he intended such.

And think about this: the priest on the altar stands in the place of Christ - "alter Christus" - and offers the sacrifice for his bride, the Church. A female cannot be the spouse of the Church, Christ's bride. It's not that it's forbidden -- it's ontologically impossible.

50 posted on 07/30/2011 3:09:31 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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