Skip to comments.Pink Smoke Gets in Your Eyes
Posted on 07/30/2011 10:13:06 AM PDT by NYer
The woman next to me loved the title: Pink Smoke Over the Vatican. I know, because she said, "Great title!" with a knowing laugh.
There were a lot of knowing laughs in the theater Saturday morning, when the one-hour independent documentary about women's ordination had its Cincinnati debut. Perhaps the biggest came when the narrator explained that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is the modern day name for The Holy Office of the Inquisition—which, though true, does sound a bit over the top. But not as over the top as clandestine ordinations on ships by incognito bishops.
And that's what the film is about: Women who want to be priests, some of whom claim to have been ordained. Sympathetic bishops, they say, have helped them. The first "ordinations" of the infamous "Danube Seven" were done in Germany in 2002—on a boat, so that they were on no bishop's territory, and in secret, so the bishops involved would not be found out. Since then, nine "ordination" ceremonies have been held, most for "priests" but many for "deacons" and ten "bishops." Because no male bishops are now involved, assuming any really were to begin with, the ceremonies are no longer secret. They are also no longer held on boats, but take place in synagogues, non-Catholic churches, and hotels. The Association of Roman Catholic Womenpriests (RCWP) claims to have 100 women in training and plans to have several more "ordinations" in 2011.
Director Jules Hart, whose previous efforts for EyeGoddessFilms include a documentary about at-risk youth "creating a totem pole as a symbol of peace and healing," says she made the film because she was captivated by the stories of Catholic women longing for the priesthood. On Saturday, about 200 people, most of them women, crowded into the 220-seat theater to hear those stories. The manager told me that made it one of the most successful private screenings the theater has ever held.
Pink Smoke is on the independent film circuit and may be coming to a theater near you. If you go, what will you see? A lot of kindly white-haired ladies, both on screen and in person—and some angry women thrown in for balance. A lot of talk about feelings and justice, a lot of half-truths and wishful thinking, and a couple of jabs at men. But it's what you won't see that is most important.
Pink Smoke Over the Vatican begins with a lot of unsupported claims that women's ordination was once accepted and common in the Church, but that evidence of this was "all but eradicated" in a Dan Brown-type conspiracy of medieval men. For the record—in case any readers are wondering—even this author with a minor in medieval history can tell you that such a thing would be logistically impossible.
The film then goes on to profile several women RCWP claims to have ordained, including one "bishop," and their supporters. Prominent among the supporters is Fr. Roy Bourgeois, the excommunicated Maryknoll priest, who shakes his finger at the mean old Church and calls the priesthood a "boys club." He is given almost as much screen time as Patricia Fresen, a cheerful, grandmotherly South African woman who claims to have been the third woman ordained a bishop. She had to leave the Dominican order after (as the Church puts it) attempting ordination and refusing to recant. Her delighted and bemused account of her episcopal "ordination" was, for me, the highlight of a surreal film experience.
But not all of the women profiled were so engaging. One was so angry she practically set the screen on fire, and another barely managed to speak as she fought back tears of sorrow for her oppressed sisters. On the whole, "priest" or layperson, the people profiled talked about their feelings. They felt called to priesthood, they felt excluded from power, they felt overjoyed at the idea of women at the altar, they felt felt FELT.
They asked me how I knew
My true love was true
Ohhhhh, I of course replied
Something here inside cannot be denied
They said someday you’ll find
All who love are blind
Oh, when your heart’s on fire
You must realize
Smoke gets in your eyes
So I chaffed them and I gaily laughed
To think they could doubt my love
Yet today my love has flown away
I am without my love
Now laughing friends deride
Tears I can not hide
Ohhhhh, so I smile and say
When a lovely flame dies
Smoke gets in your eyes
Smoke gets in your eyes
Thank you, Vatican II
Sounds like instant excommunication to me, whether the official imprimatur has yet been added to it or not.
Were any of the “womenbishops” “ordained” by Catholic bishops?
My (Protestant) minister is female, and she’s fabulous. I think the Catholic Church is wrong on this question - carrying over a cultural detail from 2,000 years ago that is not central to scripture and should not be central to doctrine.
That said, my opinion is entirely irrelevant. The Church is the sole authority on who is a Catholic priest. These women should be Catholics and follow the Church’s rules or protestants and admit honestly that they are not Roman Catholic. I see no point in their current dishonest path.
Would women priests molest little boys and girls?
Yeah, when we've changed from male priests molesting kids and having their deeds covered up by a male bishop to female priests "introducing" young girls to their repressed lesbian sexuality like something out of the Vagina Monologues and having their deeds praised by a female bishop, that will be a HUUUUUGE improvement. /Sarcasm
I'm gonna start a mailorder business to save them the trouble. Just send in two boxtops from your favorite grocery store box wine and 25 dollars to: Womanpriest, Box 5000, Ansonia Station.
In return you get a genuine certificate, suitable for framing, declaring you a priest; a rare prized facsimile of the papal ring; and a complimentary pack of wafers to help you get started.
Evidently you are not aware of the huge number of molestations that take place in public schools. Much larger than any religious sect.
Two words: Vagina Monologues. Just change the teacher to a friendly neighborhood priestess and you will get what these people are headed for.
I would mention the title of the section within the Vagina Monologues I am talking about, but the mods would delete my post for foul language.
Glad you like your protestant female minister.
You are correct. These women need to stop trying to change the catholic faith and go join the Protestants if they want to be ministers.
They aren’t Catholics.If they don’t like the rules they should move on. I would have more respect for them if they did.
Actually, if you visit the link I posted on Women and the Priesthood, you will discover that this nonsense dates back to the very beginning. It is not new.
See my post 13.
Lesbians not only molest just like eveyone else, they celebrate it in plays about the empowerment of women.
I’d like to note the section I’m talking about finishes up with the rape victim saying that if what she experienced was rape, it was “good rape.” That’s where feminism is today, folks, and these womenpriest moonbats are just a facet of it, another “look at us warm and fuzzy caring types” con like the “peace” movement and all those nice, loving abortion clinic workers.
So do you think that you are more compassionate and just than our Lord Jesus Christ? It is His action that we are following, not that of some man-made rule imposed by the Church after the fact.
Seems like the women could seek out the many modern Protestant Christian religions that worship a Savior that welcomes women as human beings of equal capacity and value to males and that welcomes women to the priesthood. Run to the Christ with the open arms.
And thank you for providing an opportunity to explain why women can never serve as priests in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.
The times have often favored a female priesthood and never more so than when Christ ordained his first priests, nearly 2,000 years ago. Virtually all the pagan religions of his day had priestesses, and it would have been entirely normal and natural for him to choose women for this task. He had, moreover, a number of excellent potential candidates, from his own Mother, who accompanied him at his first miracle and stood with him as he suffered on the cross, to Mary Magdalene or the women of Bethany. Instead, he chose only men, and he remained immovable on this, continuing right to the end to exhort and train them all, leaving thus a Church which turned out to be safely founded on a rock. From those twelve men a direct line of apostolic succession has given the Catholic Church the bishops and priests it has today.
In the Churchs latest statement on this matter, Pope John Paul II, using his full authority as the successor of Peter, stated categorically that the Church cannotnot will not, but cannot ordain women, now or in the future. The Catechism of the Catholic Church sets it out clearly, quoting the decree Inter insigniores:
"Only a baptized man [ vir] receives sacred ordination. The Lord Jesus chose men [ viri] to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christs return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible."
We need to understand that Christians believe God to be the essence of divine omnipotence. To put it crudely, he doesnt make mistakes. When he became incarnate as a human being, he did so at a precise and exact moment in human history, which had been planned from all eternity. From the beginning, God had chosen that there would be a Jewish people, among whom his divine Son would be born. Their own priestly traditions would form part of the background and culture which would help themand othersto see and know him. Every detail about the Incarnation was known in the mind of God. He was born into the fullness of time.
You can read more about this here.
Not at all; I fall short by far too much in both areas. What I think is that His choice of twelve men was culturally determined and not spiritually directive to us. He never chose a woman as a disciple, but he also never used the Internet to spread the Word. I think His non-ordination of women is a cultural detail, while His non-ordination of gays is a spiritual necessity. In any case, it's not my place to make that choice for the Roman Catholic Church, nor is it the place of a few rogue "bishops" with more loyalty to politics than to the Pope. The bishops are wrong to do this without authority.
Read the article in its entirety.
Sorry for being an uneducated dolt; back in the 50s/60s/70s never heard of ordination for women. I figured it’s some kind of new age feminist woman power sort of thing
How many of the Apostles were women?
My (Protestant) minister is female, and shes fabulous.
Has that "fabulous" woman explained what defense strategy she plans to mount during her particular judgment?
"Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Here's a proposed motto: Equal Hell for Equal Hubris.
I see no point in their current dishonest path.
awesome post. my compliments, to you and your minister.
(i like how you say your opinion, without attacking.
i also respect my Christian brothers and sisters,
as long as they treat my church with the same respect.)
...and precisely because of your good points about honesty,
i question their true motives.
many many people split off from Lutheran churches, and form their own synod, etc.
and with the current debate in many churches,
about gay clergy, we see many congregations splitting.
so, why don’t these people, simply split, and from their own “Reformed Catholic Church” or something?
(or join an Anglican type church, which is similar, but permits women priests.)
instead, these, and other non-profits who object to church teachings, insist on calling themselves Catholic.
i think the people behind it, wish to destroy the Church,
just as many liberals in the USA with to destroy ALL Christian churches.
quite possibly yes, if care is not taken at the time of entrance to the seminaries. After all we read a lot about male AND female teachers sleeping with their students.
Not central to scripture? How God laid out the authority of the local church is not central? Wow, I don’t know what Bible you read. It isn’t the one God wanted you to read. “Hey God, I know your Holy word laid out that only men should be priests but well, we didn’t care and did our own thing.”
The Catholic Church considers laypeople and priests, women and men, adults and children, born and unborn, to be fundamentally equal in their human dignity. Ordaining some adult men as deacons, priests or bishops does not mark them as fundamentally superior, as you, perhaps, assume.
That mistaken assumption comes from seeing the priesthood as a status thing. And it's almost an inevitable mistake in a society where so many are concerned about status --- who can claim immunity from this tendency? --- and where so few are interested in being poor, chaste, and obedient.
Many would roll their eyes at this, which, of course, illustrates what I mean.
Yet the really important and really interesting people in Catholicism are not the priests, nor the popes, but the saints.
Women ministers as in preachers or teachers -- it is against what St. Paul said, there's no getting around that
HOWEVER, if you put that big statement aside (which is pretty much impossible, but just for hypothetical statement), women ministers/preachers/teachers are just as capable if not more capable than many men. In fact I'd also wager that a higher % of women get to heaven
So, ministers, administrators, I got no problem about (w.r.t. preachers, I think they're good, but Paul is clear that it's no, so I say no), but priests are something different.
the priest are those who are the instruments of the eucharist, where the REAL, TRUE body of Christ is present. This is taken as continuation of what Christ celebrated.
hence there just cannot be a priestess.
I am fully in support of nuns getting more administrative control - many convents etc. are run very well. Even maybe ministerial aspects. But as priestesses, no
What I think is that His choice of twelve men was culturally determined and not spiritually directive to us. He never chose a woman as a disciple, but he also never used the Internet to spread the Word.
excellent point. certainly he would know, that many men back then, wouldn’t accept the authority of a woman.
except... He is Jesus.
he chose tax collectors, and touched lepers!
he talked to the woman at the well, and let her give him water. he intervened with the woman about to be stoned.
CLEARLY indicating, Jesus wasn’t afraid to go against the culture.
clearly indicating, that he was NOT bound, by culture.
and, even the early church followed the clear example of Jesus.
there were early church leaders that were women.
but not Priests.
so again, it is clear that it wasn’t for cultural reasons,
or women wouldn’t have been allowed to take leadership roles either.
it was only the Priesthood that was excluded.
one simply must conclude, that our Lord and Savior was FULLY aware of all of this?
and he chose only men for Apostles and the Priesthood, with laying on hands and the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Now my objection to him was that every Christian group that has first allowed pastoresses etc. eventually moves to having lesbian married pastoresses with gay partners.
How long has your denomination had pastoresses? And what is it's position on homosexual activity and homosexual ministers and marriage?
Yet the really important and really interesting people in Catholicism are not the priests, nor the popes, but the saints.
beautiful beautiful post !!! (the entire thing!)
Quite correct. There is the ECUSA they can head off towards
"In any case, it's not my place to make that choice for the Roman Catholic Church, nor is it the place of a few rogue "bishops" with more loyalty to politics than to the Pope. The bishops are wrong to do this without authority." Good point, there. Very good point. "This one is not far from the Kingdom." :o)
Thank you for your gracious words :o)
I'm not sure how the Catholics do it, but I have seen an Orthodox Bishop being vested in front of the congregation. Several Deacons put various articles and bindings over his whole body while he stands mute - I think he has silent prayers to recite.
The effect is that of a surrender of the will and, if you will, laying down his life. My reaction was not "Look what an honor he has to be served like that."
No, it was "That poor man. May God have mercy on him."
Head any damned place they want.
I about got a bellyful of change.
I like tradition ,and rules that stay the same for the whole game.
These nuns who want to change the rules should take their Dyke butts on down the road.
Can women be ordained to the priesthood?
- - - - -
No. And I do not get why these radical feminists are so insistent. If they want to be priestesses, leave the Holy Mother Church and become Episcopalian.
This is not about Christ, this is about them and its disgusting. I would like to see more excommunications regarding this.
I have read and re-read all of your posts, and I will give them a great deal of thought, prayer, and study (that’s my primary topic for tomorrow, although one day will not be enough time). I do not consider it productive to go into too much detail on this topic or any religious topic on any public board. While general comments like those so far are harmless, there are lurkers on both conservative political and conservative religious boards who are always happy to use what they find in discussions like this to hurt God’s church as a whole. I have no desire to give the other side ammunition. We are facing FAR greater threats today than ever in America’s history, and possibly the worst in the Church’s history.
They felt called to priesthood, they felt excluded from power, they felt overjoyed at the idea of women at the altar, they felt felt FELT.
- - - - -
Feelings over facts always leads to heresy.
Here is some industrial felt for their perusal.
Just because men and women fill different roles doesn’t mean that women are “less valued”.
It's like, in a Catholic ordination, the prostration of the Ordinandi face down on the floor while the Litany of the Saints is chanted. It's sure not an expression of "one guy's personal individuality, initiative, and genius" but the exact opposite: the submitting of himself as a beggar and a bound man.
I am an Evangelical and I have serious issues with women as ministers and priests. It isn’t biblical.
Women in other areas of ministry I have no problem with (I am female and work in counter cult ministries) but women should be constrained to axillary ministerial functions (like nuns in the Catholic church) rather than being head of congregations.
My inlaws attend a church with a woman ‘pastor’ and while I like her, and her sermons, when we attend with them, I think of it more as Sunday School rather than see her as a ‘pastor’. It would be unbiblical for me to submit myself to a woman pastor so I will not do it.
I agree 100% with you about not giving the other side ammunition: "the other side" meaning the Enemy of Souls, about whom we have been warned. He loves public controversies amongst Christians, who move from conflict to contempt and end up spitting and tearing at each other like demons.
Have a good Sunday, and thank you for a mutually thought-provoking discussion. I regard you as an ally and hope to be worthy to be so regarded by you.
As somebody explained up thread, the cultural norm at the time was priestesses, although the Jews did not follow that custom.
Anyhow, Christ broke cultural norms all over the place, from healing the sick on the Sabbath and allowing his disciples to pull and eat grain walking through the fields on the Sabbath, to consorting with tax-collectors and the Syro-Phoenician woman and publicans and prostitutes, to calling the Pharisees 'whited sepulchres' and driving the money changers out of the Temple.
Christ had no hesitance defying the culture, and if he had wanted to call women to the priesthood, he would have. After all, his blessed mother and Mary Magdalene were right there and the obvious choices, had he intended such.
And think about this: the priest on the altar stands in the place of Christ - "alter Christus" - and offers the sacrifice for his bride, the Church. A female cannot be the spouse of the Church, Christ's bride. It's not that it's forbidden -- it's ontologically impossible.