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That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope Benedict
Times Online ^ | 03/2008 | Richard Owen in Rome

Posted on 08/02/2011 8:54:35 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.

The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month. This week it emerged that the Vatican is planning to erect a statue of Galileo, who also faced a heresy trial, to mark the 400th anniversary next year of his discovery of the telescope.

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: ecumenism; luther; lutheran; martinluther; pope; popebenedict; vatican
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Irealize this is a three year old article, but posted it here simply for discussion purposes. No flaming please. Just a civil discussion if possible...
1 posted on 08/02/2011 8:54:40 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

More here fopr discussion :

http://www.newser.com/story/20839/pope-to-cut-luther-a-break.html

Pope to Cut Luther a Break : Vatican changing view after 500 years

By Peter Fearon

Five centuries after he ignited the Reformation by challenging papal authority, Martin Luther is expected to get a break from—of all people—Pope Benedict XVI. The pope is German and ostensibly that’s the only thing he has in common with Luther. Nevertheless, the pope plans a warmer and fuzzier re-evaluation of the monk who divided Christianity in 1517, according to the Times of London. Benedict is expected to argue that Luther didn’t intend to divide the Church—only cleanse it of corruption.

It’s a bid to launch an ecumenical dialog with Lutherans and bridge a rift created by an earlier papal statement referring to Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective. “We have much to learn from Luther, beginning with the importance he attached to the word of God,” said the Vatican’s front man on Christian Unity. He observed that Luther “anticipated aspects of reform which the Church has adopted over time.”


2 posted on 08/02/2011 8:58:52 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind

A product of his time that can’t really be accurately viewed through the lens of the modern world.


3 posted on 08/02/2011 9:03:34 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: SeekAndFind

I was taught essentially the same message in 1961 in Catholic school


4 posted on 08/02/2011 9:04:30 AM PDT by muir_redwoods (Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing an idiot)
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To: SeekAndFind
Getting the Lutherans rehabilitated by the Pope will be easier than getting the Pope rehabilitated by the Lutherans.

5 posted on 08/02/2011 9:07:07 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Except for his profane rants against Jews, Luther wasn’t so bad.


6 posted on 08/02/2011 9:09:44 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: SeekAndFind
"The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month."

What a load of crap! Does Richard Owen really believe the Pope is so political?

7 posted on 08/02/2011 9:10:52 AM PDT by eCSMaster (Democrats: the Party of NO!)
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To: Moonman62

>>> Except for his profane rants against Jews, Luther wasn’t so bad.

Well that Jewish thing, and the way he keeps kidnapping Lois Lane.


8 posted on 08/02/2011 9:11:49 AM PDT by tlb
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To: tlb

Well if you spent most of your waking hours sitting on the crapper, you’d be pretty bitter.


9 posted on 08/02/2011 9:13:10 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Genoa

MORE HERE :

Is the Pope Catholic? Now he plans to rehabilitate ‘heretic’ Martin Luther

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-527671/Is-Pope-Catholic-Now-plans-rehabilitate-heretic-Martin-Luther.html#ixzz1Tt5Go04I

The Pope is planning to rehabilitate Martin Luther - whose actions instigated the Protestant Reformation ? by arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Benedict XVI will issue his findings on the 16th-century German theologian after discussing him at the papal summer residence, Castelgandolfo, during his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians, the Ratzinger Schülerkreis.

Luther was and condemned for heresy and excommunicated in 1521 by Pope Leo X, who had initially dismissed him as ?a drunken German? and predicted he would ?change his mind when sober?.

Vatican insiders say the 80-year-old Pope - himself born in Germany - will argue that his countryman was not a heretic after all.

SNIP SNIP

Some scholars have suggested recently that Luther did not share the view of some Protestants during the Reformation that the concept of succession referred only to God’s Word and not to church hierarchies.

Luther, born in 1483, was appalled on visiting Rome in 1510 to witness the wealth, worldliness and corruption of the papacy.

He insisted that the Bible, not the Vatican, was the sole source of religious authority - and to underline his point he translated it from Latin.

SNIP SNIP

In the famous 95 Theses which he nailed the door of a Wittenberg church in 1517, Luther attacked the practice of selling papal ?indulgences? granting remission of sin. This act is generally regarded as the spark of the Reformation.

The news of the re-evaluation of Luther comes hot on the heels of the revelation that the Vatican plans a statue of Galileo, the astronomer it once tried for heresy, for the fourth centenary next year of his invention of the telescope. Both are part of an attempt to soften Pope Benedict’s image as a hardline conservative.

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE REST


10 posted on 08/02/2011 9:13:32 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Moonman62

RE: Except for his profane rants against Jews

Was Luther an inspiration for Adolf Hilter? Just asking.
He would never get away with it today with the ADL.


11 posted on 08/02/2011 9:14:40 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind
[March 2008:]Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Previously posted when it was current news, SAF. And I can predict the reaction.

Related threads:
Catholic Church called on to revoke Luther's excommunication
That Martin Luther? He Wasn’t So Bad, Says Pope
The Forum: Rehabilitating Luther: a London Times theory
Vatican spokesman calls rumors of rehabilitation of Luther groundless

12 posted on 08/02/2011 9:15:51 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed: he's hated on seven continents)
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To: tlb

RE: and the way he keeps kidnapping Lois Lane.

LUTHOR my friend LUTHOR :)


13 posted on 08/02/2011 9:16:36 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind

So Luther was basically just a “whistleblower”?
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but Benedict
seems prompted by some agenda, maybe not even conscious,
to re-unite Christianity—there have already been signs of this from the beginning with his sober evalutation of Islam.


14 posted on 08/02/2011 9:17:41 AM PDT by supremedoctrine (No need for a tagline, but here it is anyway..........)
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To: SeekAndFind

interesting ... missed the post 3 weeks ago. So, doesn’t this say something about Papal infallibility to undo something 500 years old?

To this ex-catholic I hope they do ... and a few more things ... it’s that ‘infallibility’ item that is left open to question if they do though. Maybe that should be reconsidered as well!! ;-)


15 posted on 08/02/2011 9:20:07 AM PDT by AgThorn (So, when are we going to quit blaming banking, wall street and everyone but the gov't for this mess?)
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bttt


16 posted on 08/02/2011 9:23:53 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (Re-Focus: TEA means the "Taxed Enough Already" Grass-Roots Movement)
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To: supremedoctrine

RE: So Luther was basically just a “whistleblower”?

IMHO, calling him a whistleblower is a little bit simplistic. He had DEEPER issues than that as can be seen by his desire to debate them when he posted his 95 Thesis on his church’s door.

To make an analogy with today’s corporations, he was not only a company whistleblower, he was questioning the corporate charter as to whether it was departing from its original charter.

If there was any corruption in the Catholic Church at that time or today, I have no doubt that Pope Benedict would try to weed it out.

The Pope’s wanting to reconcile with Martin Luther’s spiritual progeny is admirable, but the doctrinal issues posted by Martin Luther still remain and need to be reconciled as well.

Whether this can be done or not remains to be seen.


17 posted on 08/02/2011 9:24:30 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind
No, Hitler was profoundly anti-Christian and probably thought Luthor was a fool. Luthor's attitude was a reflection of his time and was very normal for a Christian of that age. And (as the current Pope now apparently agrees) he considered himself to be a reformer of the Roman Catholic Church and no heretic.

If I recall correctly, one of the major hot buttons was Transubstantiation, whether the Communal Host was actually magically transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ or was He speaking in an allegorical sense. I think Luthor's opinion was the same as the traditional Catholic belief while people like Calvin diverged.

European history has never been my specialty so any correction would be appreciated.

18 posted on 08/02/2011 9:32:42 AM PDT by katana
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To: SeekAndFind; Charles Henrickson; bcsco

Piffle!

Retract JDDJ and we MIGHT have a starting place.


19 posted on 08/02/2011 9:43:07 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Islam is a violent and tyrannical political ideology and has nothing to do with "religion".)
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To: SeekAndFind

:: He would never get away with it today with the ADL ::

The conservative (originalist) groups within the Lutheran tradition continue to “get away with it”.


20 posted on 08/02/2011 9:45:33 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Islam is a violent and tyrannical political ideology and has nothing to do with "religion".)
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To: AgThorn
If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to hold a definition of "papal infalibility" which is considerably more expansive than the one held by the Catholic Church. Perhaps you have it confused with "impeccability"? --- which would mean a Pope supposedly could commit no error, make no blunders, hold no mistaken opinions, and commit no sins? --- which is not a Catholic doctrine.

Don't feel I've put you down here, as this is a very common misconception among Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

(Sigh.)

21 posted on 08/02/2011 9:46:41 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Half the lies they tell about me ain't true." - Yogi Berra)
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To: katana

I don’t remember transubstantiation being a major item in Luthor’s complaint against the church, although he did dispute it and the Lutheran church has a redefinition of what happens to the bread and wine that is called ‘sacramental union’ or something meaning that.

His main difficulties with the church seemed to be centered on indulgences and the works mentality of the RCC.

He disputed the claim that freedom from God’s punishment of sin could be purchased (indulgences).
Luther taught that salvation is not earned but is free gift paid for by the sacrifice of Christ. His theology challenged the papal authority by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge. This is strongly debated to this day by the RCC in that they put tradition as another major source of divine knowledge equal to the Word.

Luther opposed sacerdotalism ? have to look that one up but it considers all baptized to be holy.

He really upset the church by getting the bible translated to German rather than just Latin!! This really grew the protestant church and lead to the further translations to English, etc.

He got married too ... something the RCC should do ... maybe that will be an outcome of this !! Halleluea!!!

Sad that he apparently became an anti-semite in his later years but that was probably more a creation of the times and had nothing to do with his theology ... I hope! ;-)


22 posted on 08/02/2011 9:47:19 AM PDT by AgThorn (So, when are we going to quit blaming banking, wall street and everyone but the gov't for this mess?)
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To: katana

I don’t remember transubstantiation being a major item in Luthor’s complaint against the church, although he did dispute it and the Lutheran church has a redefinition of what happens to the bread and wine that is called ‘sacramental union’ or something meaning that.

His main difficulties with the church seemed to be centered on indulgences and the works mentality of the RCC.

He disputed the claim that freedom from God’s punishment of sin could be purchased (indulgences).
Luther taught that salvation is not earned but is free gift paid for by the sacrifice of Christ. His theology challenged the papal authority by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge. This is strongly debated to this day by the RCC in that they put tradition as another major source of divine knowledge equal to the Word.

Luther opposed sacerdotalism ? have to look that one up but it considers all baptized to be holy.

He really upset the church by getting the bible translated to German rather than just Latin!! This really grew the protestant church and lead to the further translations to English, etc.

He got married too ... something the RCC should do ... maybe that will be an outcome of this !! Halleluea!!!

Sad that he apparently became an anti-semite in his later years but that was probably more a creation of the times and had nothing to do with his theology ... I hope! ;-)


23 posted on 08/02/2011 9:47:34 AM PDT by AgThorn (So, when are we going to quit blaming banking, wall street and everyone but the gov't for this mess?)
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To: AgThorn

How do you delete redundant posts?
How do you delete redundant posts?

(sorry, just felt that I needed to say that twice! ;-)


24 posted on 08/02/2011 9:48:40 AM PDT by AgThorn (So, when are we going to quit blaming banking, wall street and everyone but the gov't for this mess?)
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To: AgThorn

How do you delete redundant posts?
How do you delete redundant posts?

(sorry, just felt that I needed to say that twice! ;-)


25 posted on 08/02/2011 9:48:42 AM PDT by AgThorn (So, when are we going to quit blaming banking, wall street and everyone but the gov't for this mess?)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

:: Luthor’s attitude was a reflection of his time and was very normal for a Christian of that age ::

Might I postulate that - if it weren’t for Luther and “The Reformation”, the United States would not currently exist and continue to be under the shadow of the British Crown (in the same way that Canada is today).


26 posted on 08/02/2011 9:48:58 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Islam is a violent and tyrannical political ideology and has nothing to do with "religion".)
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To: Moonman62

Just like most of Europe during that time, Catholics included... Luther view of the Jews changed through from early in life to late in life and stubborness got the best of him late in life.. He was sinful human being, but aren’t we all...


27 posted on 08/02/2011 9:56:39 AM PDT by scbison
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To: SeekAndFind
Obviously the "Vatican rehabilitation" of Luther didn't happen, which says something about trusting anonymous "Vatican insiders" referenced in the British press. (Pretty much anything you read about the Vatican in the UK secular press is garbage until proven otherwise.)

Luther had some valid insights ... and some not-so-valid ones. Pope Benedict is an honest enough scholar to give credit where credit is due. I'm currently reading his latest book ("Jesus of Nazareth, part II"). He quotes Protestant scholars all over the place. Sometimes he agrees with them. Sometimes he strongly disagrees with them.

28 posted on 08/02/2011 10:00:03 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

Thank you.. I believe James Madison was influenced by some of Luthers writings..


29 posted on 08/02/2011 10:00:09 AM PDT by scbison
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To: SeekAndFind


Served up fresh for Catholics FReeper...
30 posted on 08/02/2011 10:02:13 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: SeekAndFind
Was Luther an inspiration for Adolf Hilter? Just asking. He would never get away with it today with the ADL.

You'll have to research that for yourself. I do believe that the long standing cultural hatred of Jews in Europe is why they are so welcoming to Muslims over there.

Hitler had a fascinating life. I think his main motivator was his extreme hatred for his father. Hatred of Jews, German nationalism, etc. was a means to an end for him.

31 posted on 08/02/2011 10:03:06 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: AgThorn

500 years ago the Pope wasn’t infallible.


32 posted on 08/02/2011 10:10:09 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (New gets old. Steampunk is always cool)
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To: SeekAndFind
Benedict was the power behind the JDDF, and was upset when other Vatican officials put the appendix in that basically destroyed the talks.

I think the Pope would love to work with the Lutherans. But the current state of apostate synods running around makes it very hard. There are few pan Lutheran bodies which have much authority on what their members believe.

33 posted on 08/02/2011 10:13:45 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

What do you mean? It’s not like the Pope has renounced Catholic teachings and thrown in his towel and become a Lutheran.


34 posted on 08/02/2011 10:25:09 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Genoa

Because the pope is charitable. Lutherans? Not so much.


35 posted on 08/02/2011 10:33:42 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: SeekAndFind

It has been my understanding that Luther’s bitterness against the Jewish people came in his later years. The theory is that he had expected Jewish people to be totally delighted with the declaration that Salvation came by Faith and not works, and would flock to be converted once they understood this vital doctrine.

When this didn’t happen, it challenged his cherished beliefs, and disappointed him greatly.

Of course, there is no excuse for hating the people you can’t convert!

As far as being an inspiration for Hitler, that is indeed unfortunate. But so was Wagner, and even the “Aryan” Legends of Tibet. The swastika was originally a Buddhist symbol.

Nazism was a construct of Teutonic Mythology, Communist Totalitarianism, Asian Mysticism, German Protestant Terminology, and Medieval Satanism all rolled into one.

Luther just got caught up in the mix, and since he had been dead almost 500 years, couldn’t do much about it.

Would Luther have have gotten away with antisemitism in this day and age? Probably. The Left rants against Jews and Israel and gets away with it ALL THE TIME.

Just sayin’.


36 posted on 08/02/2011 10:53:32 AM PDT by left that other site (Psalm 122:6)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel
Might I postulate that - if it weren’t for Luther and “The Reformation”, the United States would not currently exist and continue to be under the shadow of the British Crown (in the same way that Canada is today).

The printing press was a far more fundamental development that led to the Reformation. If not for Martin Luther it would have been somebody else. The increase in literacy would have led to it.

37 posted on 08/02/2011 11:16:54 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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38 posted on 08/02/2011 11:22:35 AM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list.)
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To: SeekAndFind

I know, I know, I was intentionally being simplistic.
It isn’t often one sees the name Martin Luther dragged into
the public discourse. I was just wondering what prompted it.


39 posted on 08/02/2011 12:05:20 PM PDT by supremedoctrine (No need for a tagline, but here it is anyway..........)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
this is a very common misconception among Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

Perhaps to clear up the misconception, you could direct us to a definitive list of infallible papal statements and teachings?
40 posted on 08/02/2011 4:11:12 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: armydoc

I personally do not know how many Ex-Cathedra pronouncements there are. Many prominent Roman Catholics do not know either.

The Roman Catholic apologist Scott Hahn says there are only................... TWO.

Tim Staples, Director of Apologetics and Evangelization here at Catholic Answers, says there are..... FOUR and maybe more.

The famous Roman Catholic priest and broadcaster Fr Leslie Rumble says there are......... EIGHTEEN (but he is not sure about four of them.)

The even more famous theologian and Medievalist, Ludwig Ott says there are...................................... SIXTY.

What Pope Benedict should do is clear up the debate once and for all. For the sake of Catholics and everybody else.


41 posted on 08/02/2011 6:36:51 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: armydoc
OK, no prob. (Suppressing the temptation to grin and wink.)

There are different sources of infallibility. For instance:

You can see that the vast bulk of infallible doctrines come from the canonical Scriptures --- preeminently what was given by Christ Our Lord Himself --- and their authoritative interpretation by the Church (“Whoever hears you, hears Me.”)

Various people have tried to make great BIG lists, and one of the most interesting to you might be the list made by Ludwig Ott in his “Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine” (1952), a marvelously concise 520-page one-volume summary.

[Here’s where I’m really grinning and winking: it’s more concise, anyhow, than the 12 volumes of “The Fundamentals” published by Protestant Fundamentalists approx. 100 years ago. :o)]

You’d think it would all be written down,with bullet points and in searchable electronic form, preferably --- that would be most satisfactory to a person like me ---- but (sigh) I must admit it's not. Think of the incomparably precious things Jesus Christ Himself gave us directly: the vast majority of it was NOT reduced to a definitive list:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."

Amen.

42 posted on 08/02/2011 6:49:41 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, to love tenderly, and walk humbly with your God)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Mrs. Don-0:

Very good post. what it shows is that Theologians have latitude in theological opinion as long as it does not contradict any defined Doctrines/Dogmas. So what Papal statements are “infallible” is ultimately only infallible when Rome “says they are infallible”. Individual Theologians may have differences of opinion among themselves on those Papal Statements that the Bishop of Rome has issued a formal documents but He Himself has not invoked the charism of Papal Infalliblity with respect to said Papal documents.

If you read Pope Benedict’s “Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones For a Fundamental Theology”, published by Ignatius Press, you will see that in fact gave Luther a fair hearing in that work pointing out where Luther’s crticisms were valid where he went beyond Apostolic Tradition.


43 posted on 08/02/2011 7:24:33 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: SeekAndFind
Tom O'Toole's latest on Luther (and Corapi) for anyone interested.
44 posted on 08/02/2011 8:39:32 PM PDT by mlizzy (And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell others not to kill? --MT)
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To: CTrent1564

I personally do not know how many Infallible Ex-Cathedra pronouncements there are. Many prominent Roman Catholics do not know either.

The Roman Catholic apologist Scott Hahn says there are only................... TWO.

Tim Staples, Director of Apologetics and Evangelization at Catholic Answers, says there are..... FOUR and maybe more.

The famous Roman Catholic priest and broadcaster Fr. Leslie Rumble says there are......... EIGHTEEN (but he is not sure about four of them.)

The even more famous theologian and Medievalist, Ludwig Ott says there are...................................... SIXTY.

What Pope Benedict should do is clear up the debate once and for all. For the sake of Catholics and everybody else.


45 posted on 08/02/2011 8:52:47 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: armydoc
Perhaps to clear up the misconception, you could direct us to a definitive list of infallible papal statements and teachings?

Why would a definitive list of infallible papal teachings be required to clear up the misconception that infallibility, which protects only teachings (and only some of those) is the same thing as impeccability (sinlessness, which would include setting a perfect example in one's personal behavior, etc.)?

Understanding that one's teaching and one's personal behavior aren't the same thing is not rocket science. Our Lord mentions the concept in Scripture in relation to the Pharisees. I'm sure you're familiar with the passage.

Vatican I, in the decree Pastor Aeternus, set forth 4 conditions for a Papal statement to be infallible:

  1. The Pope had to be speaking in his supreme Apostolic authority, not as, e.g., a private doctor or as the bishop of Rome.
  2. The teaching had to be addressed to the whole church. A private letter, or a decree disciplining a specific individual, doesn't qualify.
  3. The teaching had teach definitively, not speculatively, some proposition to be held firmly by all the faithful.
  4. Finally, the subject of the teaching has to be a matter of faith or morals.
Beyond that, theologians can argue about which statements are and aren't infallible, but it's an academic argument unless and until the teaching changes. Infallible teachings don't, fallible ones might.
46 posted on 08/03/2011 12:51:35 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: SeekAndFind; armydoc
Good morning there, SeeksandFind, and armydoc.

Armydoc, you could send the pope an e-mail to advise him on the needed clarification:

benedictxvi@vatican.va

(That's the Vatican Internet office.)

But I woudn't hold my breath waiting for an answer. Why? Because it's kind of a tickbite question. (Not insulting you or anybody else, just pointing out...) It's kind of like stipulating the length of the tassels on the phylacteries.

All that Christ teaches us through His Church --- the "Ordinary Magisterium" --- we should follow, and you can find it in admirably searchable form at the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Link) --- yes,do click it and mouse around a while, it's hugely useful ---and in much more concise form at Luke 10:27 (Link) --- also well worth a mouseclick and a lifetime's pondering and obeying.

Bless the Lord, He always made short shrift of lawyers' questions.

The distinction between "infallible" and "noninfallible" is not at all analogous to "true" and "false." All that the Church teaches is true. The formally "infallible" stuff was, so to speak, underlined with a black felt-tip pen, not because it was "most important" or "most true," but because it was at the time a disputed question, and a Council or the Pope had to resolve the dispute.

That's why the Council of Jerusalem made that -- to us, perhaps, odd--- list of formal decisions:

Acts 15:28-30
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from fornication. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

(Scribal interjection: "Huh? That's it?")

So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter.

What's up with that? Were these the Most Important Commandments to be observed in Christianity? Was this the Most True Teaching TM of the Church?

Far from it. The matter was disputed, and it was causing controversy and dissention in the Church. So a ruling was made, by the Council, under the influence of the Holy SPirit. The Church still has this role: to settle disputes, not to needlessly drag in new burdens and requirements!!

So you want a list of "Really Important Stuff"? --- well, see above, "Links".

47 posted on 08/03/2011 6:11:33 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, to love tenderly, and walk humbly with your God)
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To: SeekAndFind; armydoc
Oops, I just meant to send that the SeekandFind. Man, I need that coffee! But it's OK, you may both find something of interest.
48 posted on 08/03/2011 6:22:36 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (I wouldn't want to be Pope: because then (lifting chin) I wouldn't be infallible. - Prof. Hans Kung)
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To: Campion

Is it possible for a Pope to infallibly make a pronouncement to inform the faithful which statements of his predecessors meet all 4 conditions you outlined?


49 posted on 08/03/2011 6:45:21 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Up to your usual good form, I see :-)


50 posted on 08/03/2011 9:15:28 AM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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