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Scientist and Amateur Philosopher Stephen Hawking Wanders as he Wonders in a New TV Series
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | August 3, 2011 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 08/03/2011 3:40:06 PM PDT by NYer

Looks like were all going to be “treated” to a new series on the Discovery Channel wherein British Physicist Stephen Hawking will ponder theological and philosophical questions. A rather strange thing for a scientist to do actually.

I have no doubt that Stephen Hawking is a fine, even a brilliant scientist and theoretical physicist. But science has a limit, a limit rightly imposed on itself, which explores the physical world using empirical and evidential models that do not go beyond the physically observable world. Scientists, even theoretical physicists, do well who recognize their sphere, their field. And most scientists are quite willing and happy to acknowledge the self defined world of the physical sciences.

Stephen Hawking however, while clutching the mantle of his scientific robes, has recently strayed beyond what science can say. In my opinion he he causes harm to science and also proves himself a poor philosopher to boot. He is free to philosophize of course like any human being, but he ought not cloak it as science and we ought not give any special weight to his philosophical and theological statements, fields in which he clearly has no proper training. When it comes to these fields he is just “some dude” sipping a beer and opining on the deep questions.

But, sadly we DO have to pay attention to him because so many in our world bow their heads with religious reverence as he speaks, and give a weight to his words on these matters that the words do not deserve.

Mr Hawking was recently interviewed in USA Today about his new series. I would like to excerpt the article here and make some comments of my own. As usual the article is in bold, black, italics, my comments are in plain text red. The full article can be read here: USA Today: Science Snapshot

“I recently published a book that asked if God created the universe. It caused something of a stir,” Hawking, 69, begins on the episode. (The “stir”, in fact, was religious leaders denouncing his book’s conclusion that God was unnecessary to the universe.)

Well, of course we shouldn’t expect USA Today to be sympathetic to “religious leaders,” but “denounce” is an unnecessarily provocative description. Why is our position not described as a “principled opposition” rooted in concerns that Mr. Hawking may be making conclusions that science really cannot make, and that he strays from science into philosophy? Or why was our position not described as an “unconvinced?” For, frankly Mr Hawking’s argument is not airtight or invincible. There are many, who find his premises faulty and his conclusions questionable.

But USA Today would rather just depict us as “denouncers” who shout angry things and throw rocks from the sidelines.

As for me, I love science and am very excited about the amazing discoveries of the past 200 years. But I do not expect science, which studies the physical world using empirical observation, to be able to conclude one way or another about God who is pure spirit. To some extent I think science can draw conclusions that there is a design to the universe, but I do not expect it to make definitive claims, one way or the other, as to the who exactly this designer is.

Is this to “denounce,” or is it, as I propose, to take a principled stand that the physical sciences are a careful discipline which study the material world? And that they ought not be invoked to take philosophical and theological stands on the existence of God or angels, or the soul, or anything non-material.

On the show, he takes viewers on a walk through humanity’s history of appraising our place in the universe, from Vikings facing down eclipses to the laws of modern cosmology, which explain the origin and structure of universe. “I believe the discovery of these laws is mankind’s greatest achievement,” he says.

So it would seem that Mr Hawking, in his series, sees ancient and modern belief in God as just some sort of way to “find my place in the universe,” as a mere anthropological projection of cosmology? Somehow we are seen as similar to the superstitious of Vikings and other ancients who feared eclipses and other things things they did not understand.

I suspect I am also to suppose that just like we would laugh at, or pity someone getting spooked by an eclipse, we should also laugh at, or pity those who believe in God? It would seem that I am also supposed to presume that modern cosmology has it all figured out, unlike the pitiable ancients?

Mr Hawking has said elsewhere that he thinks belief in God is just a coping mechanism for believers. Well of course that is one way to believe in God. But it is not why I believe in God. Nor is it why most people I know believe in God.

I believe in God because I have experienced his power and presence in my life. I believe in God because I see evidence for his existence in the things he has made, things that manifest both a first cause and evidence an intelligent and purposeful design. I believe in God because he is changing my life, and in the laboratory of my own life, I have tested his wisdom and Word and found them to be true.

I am not consciously obsessed with dying, nor do I need to be comforted and reassured in the face of it. Frankly my faith challenges, more than comforts me. My faith holds up a cross before me, not a pillow. There is surely some consolation in there being a “meaning to my life,” but Mr. Hawking, indeed every human being, seeks meaning.

Believers should not be demeaned and our faith simplified by equating us with spooked Vikings staring at an eclipse. The Roman Catholic Faith is a smart and thoughtful faith extending back 2000 years to Christ, and 5000 years further into Jewish antiquity. We are not the yahoos some like to think we are. We have a strong, lasting and profound theological and philosophical tradition. And these have served as an important foundation for the development of the natural sciences.

In a short, exclusive interview with USA TODAY, Hawking e-mailed his answers to why he is taking on religion to start off the show, and discussed his life and legacy. Here are his answers to some of the questions:

Q: First, we wonder if you could comment on why you are tackling the existence of God question?
A: I think Science can explain the Universe without the need for God.

And I would answer that physical science cannot conclude one way or another on the existence of a purely spiritual Being. Science need have no opinion on whether God is “needed,” for it limits its scope to studying effects, and secondary causality. The primary cause of all things is a philosophical and theological pondering, for it exists before singularity, and thus lies beyond what science can currently measure. In other words, science is not equipped to answer the ultimate question of “why” things exist. It studies things that do exist, and can probe their secondary causes. But primary causality, the ultimate why of the existence of all things lies outside the system.

What Mr Hawking is doing here is not science at all, it is philosophy, and poor philosophy at that. For philosophy carefully distinguishes cause and effect. It also distinguishes primary causality from secondary causality. Even more, it distinguishes material, formal, efficient, and final causality. Mr Hawking would seem to gloss over all this, and thus portrays his amateur status as a philosopher. If you’re going to enter the world of philosophy you might at least brush up on terminology so as to have a reasonably thoughtful discussion with your interlocutors.

Q. What problems you are working on now, and what do you see as the big questions in theoretical physics?
A: I’m working on the question, why is there something rather than nothing, why are the laws of physics what they are.

Well, stick the laws of physics please, because science is not well equipped to answer the ultimate question of why. Ultimate meaning and “why all this” it just not a physically measurable thing. It is not a question physical science can really answer. How do you physically measure meaning? What are the scales you weigh it in? Does meaning have physical weight? That said, at least he is describing his work as theoretical physics. But remember, physics is going to have “physical” limits and must limit itself to the physical, material world.

Q: What do you see as your legacy in science or for the people who have become enthusiastic about physics as a result of your work and writing?
A: I think my most important discovery is the fundamental relation between gravity and thermodynamics (the study of how heat moves through matter) which gives a black hole a temperature and causes it to evaporate slowly.

Cool!

Essentially on “Is There A Creator?,” Hawking notes that on the sub-atomic scale, particles are seen in experiments to appear from nowhere. And since the Big Bang started out smaller than an atom, similarly the universe likely “popped into existence without violating the known laws of Nature,” he says. Nothing created the universe, so in his view there was no need for a creator. That is his explanation for “why there is something rather than nothing.”

Well, the philosophical and logical errors here are more numerous than there is time to explore.

Even scientifically I wonder how we define “nowhere.” It may be a true fact that we do not know where the particles come from or how they appear, but we cannot logically leap to the absolute conclusion that they come form “nowhere.”

To say that they come from nowhere is an a priori assumption. It is unproved that the particles come from nowhere. And how would we prove that something came from nowhere? It may be that we simply don’t understand where they came from or how.

And, even if we could reasonably prove that something came from nowhere, does that ipso facto mean that it did not exist before it came from nowhere?

I suppose, as a theologian I could proffer that it existed spiritually before it materialized? But of course physical science cannot measure the spiritual and cannot accept my theory or measure it. So it would seem to science that the particle came from nowhere. But that does not mean that it did come from nowhere, only that science cannot explain where it came from or how; at least not now.

For example, a blind man might theorize that raindrops on his head come from nowhere, because he cannot see their cause. But that does not prove they come from nowhere, only that he does not know where they come from or how.

“The series is all about satisfying our curiosity about the world,” Hendricks says. Rather than tackling science like classroom topics, the shows will ask questions and see what research has to say about them, he says, an inversion of the standard science show formula. “That is why we are starting with Stephen Hawking,” Hendricks adds. “We want to be asking the deepest questions we can, such as ‘Did God Create the Universe?”

A question which science can’t answer.

Frankly, save your time from watching this Hawking show. If you do watch it, please remember that Mr Hawking is free to wonder and theorize. But that is all it is, a theory. And remember too that he is wandering as he wonders. He is wandering beyond the proper limits of his discipline. While he may be a fine physicist, but that does make him a good philosopher, any more than it makes him a good car mechanic. I would not want him to work on my car any more than I want to give weight to his amateurish philosophical ponderings. He is free to make them, but they are poorly set forth, based on poor philosophical foundations and logical flaws. Do not be fooled by his lab coat.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: creationism; crevo; crevolist; god; hawking; msgrcharlespope; philosophy; physics; stephenhawking

1 posted on 08/03/2011 3:40:12 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 08/03/2011 3:40:54 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer


But science has a limit, a limit rightly imposed on itself, which explores the physical world using empirical and evidential models that do not go beyond the physically observable world....

Naaaaahhhh....
3 posted on 08/03/2011 3:45:48 PM PDT by AndrewB (FUBO)
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To: NYer

This guy’s like something out of bad, 50’s B-movie science fiction

That disembodied brain kept alive in a jar, going slowly mad “pops” into mind from nowhere.

He’s gone ‘round the bend, thinking he determines belief in God or not.

No need for a straitjacket, just take away his batteries before he hurts himself.


4 posted on 08/03/2011 3:50:22 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

Your comment makes it seem that you don’t have much experience with, or use for, disabled people.


5 posted on 08/03/2011 3:57:09 PM PDT by GAB-1955 (I write books, love my wife, serve my nation, and believe in the Resurrection.)
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To: NYer

The fact science now sees particles appearing from “nowhere” cannot possibly prove no creator is needed. They have no idea how or why the particles appear, they have discovered a complete mystery which certainly seems mystical in nature.

Scientists used to say there could not be a creator because nowhere in the universe is anything ever created or destroyed. Now they ran into the opposite but didn’t open theur minds to this new reality.


6 posted on 08/03/2011 3:58:29 PM PDT by Williams (Honey Badger Don't Care)
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To: NYer
“We want to be asking the deepest questions we can, such as ‘Did God Create the Universe?”

A question which science can’t answer.

There is no question that Hawking is thought provoking but one would think that Msgr. Pope would have more things to worry about within the church than what some scientist has to say........

If Msgr. Pope wants to discuss those "deepest questions" then why discount the scientific community? Shouldn't they be part of the discussion?

7 posted on 08/03/2011 4:02:07 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco (You can't forfeit the game Chuck! If you go home you forfeit!)
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To: NYer

Thomas Aquinas, did Hawking never study philosophy?


8 posted on 08/03/2011 4:11:33 PM PDT by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: NYer
It makes a grotesque kind of sense for a man suffering a living Hell to try to convince others to go for eternal Hell.
He obviously blames and hates God for his condition so he denies Him,restricting his now cynical ersatz intellectual musings to misguided yet clever secular rationalizations of God's work.
He should be pitied.
9 posted on 08/03/2011 4:14:58 PM PDT by Happy Rain ("Homosexuality was the first fully diagnosed mental illness cured by political correctness.")
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To: RegulatorCountry
This guy’s like something out of bad, 50’s B-movie science fiction That disembodied brain kept alive in a jar, going slowly mad “pops” into mind from nowhere.


10 posted on 08/03/2011 4:17:16 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Hot Tabasco; RegulatorCountry

Why should the “scientific community” - a false construct, anyway - have any more to contribute to deep questions of philosophy and religion than the “accountancy community” or the “motorcycling community”?

Known facts about physics are publically available to anyone who wants to make the effort to comprehend them. One might have to put more time into learning higher math skills, but a good writer, such as Richard Feynman, could make what was known and what was speculated reasonably clear to a non-specialist. From that point, any rational person can evaluate the relevance of the facts of physics to his religious faith.

It is a myth that being a specialist in a technical field of study makes a person much more intelligent than the general run of humanity, and it is another, deeply insidious, myth that being more intelligent than average confers greater insight into ultimate things.

Mr. Hawking’s theories about physics are to challenge, and are challenged by other specialists in the field. His efforts at philosophy deserve about the same pat on the head as my 9-year-old’s deep musings. “Run along, dear, and play with your sub-atomic models now. Don’t be late for supper.”


11 posted on 08/03/2011 4:20:27 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Do you know why I love reptiles? It's because they don't play guitars.)
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To: Williams
The fact science now sees particles appearing from “nowhere” cannot possibly prove no creator is needed.


12 posted on 08/03/2011 4:24:34 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: NYer
"Nothing comes from nothing, and nothing ever will."

13 posted on 08/03/2011 4:33:55 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (This message carfully checkd to misteakes by powerful softwhere)
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To: NYer
Scientist and Amateur Philosopher Stephen Hawking Wanders

Doubt it.

14 posted on 08/03/2011 4:36:45 PM PDT by tnlibertarian (Don't mend SS, end it.)
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To: Tax-chick
Why should the “scientific community” - a false construct, anyway - have any more to contribute to deep questions of philosophy and religion than the “accountancy community” or the “motorcycling community”?

Because there is nothing in the theologic community that convinces me that there is a God so if they can't do so, why not allow the scientific community to offer their opinions?

What is the fear?

15 posted on 08/03/2011 4:47:01 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco (You can't forfeit the game Chuck! If you go home you forfeit!)
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To: Hot Tabasco

Why the exaggeration?

Nobody is attempting to prevent any scientist from offering his personal opinions about philosophy or religion. Many scientists in a wide variety of specialties have written or spoken about their personal faith or lack of faith, and on the ways their scientific studies have contributed to the formation of their views.

The author’s concern is that people’s socially-conditioned respect for expertise may lead them to the erroneous conclusion that Dr. Hawking - not even an unchallenged authority in his own speciality - is nonetheless more qualified than themselves to weigh in on questions of philosophy and religion.


16 posted on 08/03/2011 5:00:25 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Do you know why I love reptiles? It's because they don't play guitars.)
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To: NYer

Science learns by division..breaking things down into smaller and smaller pieces, more divergent avenues,

Eg: chemistry, biology, physics.

You cannot understand a unity through division.


17 posted on 08/03/2011 5:06:19 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (We kneel to no prince but the Prince of Peace)
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To: Williams
Scientists are fascinating but they don't know the first thing about creating anything.

That is the job for the engineer.

God just happens to be the best engineer out there.

18 posted on 08/03/2011 5:11:02 PM PDT by Chainmail
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19 posted on 08/03/2011 5:25:17 PM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list.)
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To: Tax-chick
Why the exaggeration?

So tell me, who is less qualified to discuss the existence of God, Hawking or perhaps these folks?

Marjoe Gortner,

Billy James Hargis

Jim & Tammy Bakker

Jimmy Swaggert

Peter Popoff

Morris Cerullo

Mike Warnke

Robert Tilton

W. V. Grant

Bob Moorehead

Roy Clements

John Paulk

Paul Crouch

Douglas Goodman

Ted Haggard

And the list goes on ad nauseum and doesn’t even include the catholic pedophiles.

Don't get me wrong, I'm desperately trying to find significance in worship and an appropriate church but there is nothing I have witnessed in recent years that convinces me a house of worship or specific religion has any more credibility than the theories of scientists such as Hawking..........

I don't mean to change the subject but what makes Christianity any more credible than say Hinduism or Buddhism? All three religions require a blind faith belief in their respective Gods.......

20 posted on 08/03/2011 5:37:33 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco (You can't forfeit the game Chuck! If you go home you forfeit!)
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To: Hot Tabasco

I don’t believe that religion - specifically Christianity, but others as well - requires “blind” faith, but rather faith supported by both reason and experience. Take Buddhism, for example. A key tenet of Buddhism is that “life is suffering.” Experience certainly supports that contention, just as it supports the Judeo-Christian view that human beings are inclined to do really bad things, or what we call “sin.”

Another tenet of Buddhism is that the appearance of things in the world is deceptive. This is obviously empirically true, in many ways. You think you’re looking at a solid rock, but in reality, it’s a construct of whizzing sub-atomic particles, just as you and I, and the sun, and the ocean are.

Take a key belief of Judaism and Christianity: that God created the world we know from nothing. The observations of astronomy and physics tend to support this contention. There was nothing; then there was something. The conclusion that this occurred without a power to cause it is a form of religious belief - “There was no cause, because I refuse to believe in something that might be the Cause.” - just as the belief in a Creator God is.

There are a number of books that address what can be rationally known about God. Thomas Aquinas is a good source, but heavy. There was a freshman rite-of-passage in my college called “Wine and Aquinas,” which I remember only vaguely ...

Stanley Jaki is a fine writer on science and Christianity. Francis Crick, a biochemist, wrote a book in recent years on his conversion to “theism,” if not Christianity. Try the website of “First Things” magazine for other sources. They often have articles about science and faith, and many of the authors have also published books.


21 posted on 08/03/2011 5:51:01 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Do you know why I love reptiles? It's because they don't play guitars.)
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To: Tax-chick

Thank you......


22 posted on 08/03/2011 6:05:28 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco (You can't forfeit the game Chuck! If you go home you forfeit!)
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To: Hot Tabasco
The vast majority of humanity accepts an afterlife as truth.A majority of those accept a Supreme Being “out there.”
Such a common trait in homo sapiens then must be genetic and if one believes in the “Scientific Method” such a condition so common,like fear of the dark,must be a Darwiniac assumption as possible as the first man being born of a “not man” as there is no empirical proof of either.

People do not believe or disbelieve in God—they are either aware or not aware of HIM.
But since infidels are rare they are obviously the victims of recessive mutations according to the Darwiniac religion—that is if one accepts the principles of the “Scientific Method.”

23 posted on 08/03/2011 6:19:30 PM PDT by Happy Rain ("Homosexuality was the first fully diagnosed mental illness cured by political correctness.")
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To: NYer
Frankly, save your time from watching this Hawking show. If you do watch it, please remember that Mr Hawking is free to wonder and theorize. But that is all it is, a theory. And remember too that he is wandering as he wonders.

I have always felt comfortable hearing or reading what anyone thinks or opines. I do however, draw the line where someone resorts to condescension, adopting an a priori position of superiority, and presuming to know, somehow, what constitutes "wasting my time."

I had no intention of watching this proposed series, but now I think I must, to discourage presumtuous religionists or philosophers or whatever they deem themselves to be while attempting to control others.

24 posted on 08/03/2011 7:03:59 PM PDT by Publius6961 (My world was lovely, until it was taken over by parasites.)
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To: Hot Tabasco
There is something significant for you, if you felt driven to attack Christianity as a useful way to participate in the discussion.

I simple assumed that this was a comparison/contrast between "science" and all religions. Didn't you?

25 posted on 08/03/2011 7:13:05 PM PDT by Publius6961 (My world was lovely, until it was taken over by parasites.)
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To: Hot Tabasco

You’re welcome. A basic conclusion one reaches by logic is that a belief is not false simply because a jerk believes it. It is a principle of Christianity (and Judaism) that every human being is a sinner, and that none of us will fully live up to what we profess. That is why it is irrational for one’s faith to be dependent on the good behavior of ministers or priests.

Saying, “I believe in the Catholic Faith ... unless a Catholic sins,” would mean my faith would be kaput within minutes of my waking up each morning, because it doesn’t take long for me to fall short of what I profess. It would also be inconsistent with the Catholic Faith itself, which tells me that all humans will sin, all will fall short of what God requires, all will require pure, unmerited mercy from the only source that can deliver it.


26 posted on 08/03/2011 7:32:45 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Do you know why I love reptiles? It's because they don't play guitars.)
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To: NYer
"“I recently published a book that asked if God created the universe. It caused something of a stir,” Hawking, 69, begins on the episode."

When he says he "asked," it means he has made up his mind that God can't exist. It's interesting that one little man has decided that God doesn't need to exist because HE says so. I quit liking his stuff a long time ago, when he started pretending he was smarter than God. He's going to have to prove that to me.

27 posted on 08/03/2011 9:21:09 PM PDT by redhead (—I will vote for Sarah Palin, even if I have to write her in. —)
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To: NYer

Hello, NYer - you and others may be interested in what science *can* contribute to the reasoned conclusion that God (as Creator not bound by space or time) exists: (source: magisreasonfaith dot org) Fr. Robert Spitzer, Ph.D., SJ (former president of Gonzaga University and head of the Magis Institute for Reason and Faith) wrote a book called New Proofs for the Existence of God, in which he examines mainstream, peer-reviewed physics data (not reducible to a soundbite unfortunately) that include a 2003 proof by physicists Borde, Vilenkin, and Guth that any universe that is expanding (which ours is) must have a beginning. And because ‘nothing comes from nothing’, (i.e., no-thing does not have any power to give rise to anything, including the physical entities of space and time), then the cause of the universe must necessarily be outside space and time. This even covers all those theoretical but speculative scenarios like multiverses, string theory-11-dimension-type universes, etc etc that have been proposed.

I am a volunteer moderator at the website, hence my interest in this topic.


28 posted on 08/03/2011 9:29:19 PM PDT by firerosemom (Jesus, son of God, son of Mary, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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Next on the Discovery Channel:

Pope Benedict On The Higgs Boson


29 posted on 08/03/2011 10:26:53 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Hot Tabasco

Depends on how you define God.

That would be the first point in a philosophical debate or discussion of the issue.

They could at least have someone competent in philosophy here.

Hawking is out of his element here, as is Dawkins.


30 posted on 08/03/2011 10:32:43 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
Pope Benedict On The Higgs Boson

At least Benedict XVI would give respect to all the ideas in the discussion, before running circles around the faulty arguments.

31 posted on 08/04/2011 7:07:15 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: firerosemom
Thank you for the link.
Magis Center of Reason and Faith
32 posted on 08/04/2011 7:14:23 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: SirKit

Here’s another TV show you can laugh at! LOL!


33 posted on 08/04/2011 4:02:17 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: NYer

Q: First, we wonder if you could comment on why you are tackling the existence of God question?

A: To make money.


34 posted on 05/05/2012 9:00:44 PM PDT by onedoug
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