Was Polygamy, in the Nineteenth Century, Started by the FLDS Church, or the LDS Church?

Faith and Reason Forum.com ^ | 2003 | Donna Morley

[Elsie]

YACHT = Yet Another Chrsitian Heresy Thread

[Elsie]

How would you feel about someone grossly misrepresenting what you believe?

That's a good question?

Have you ever complained to MORMONs for their CONTINOUS slander of the entire CHRISTIAN world?

---

 

---

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses  5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses  8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses  8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses  10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

I don’t like Mormon beliefs, but misrepresenting what someone believes is really disgusting behavior.

Yes, Maam!

We really ARE Christians!

[Elsie]

They practiced their beliefs and no one bothered them.

That must have been a REAL surprise when the FANCHER party attacked them!

[Elsie]

Thanks for the suggested changes, Satan; but it ain’t gonna happen.

[greyfoxx39]

Just wondering if you realize the graphic you posted confirms my point?

Why no. Just wondering if you realize the graphic shows that the FLDS and LDS were both born in the mind of the adulterous so-called prophet and there isn't any truth to either cult?

[Elsie]

Well, the lds could have remained a territory or an independent country but they decided their god told them polygamy was a no-no, whala just in time to become a state.

Well; the MORMONs are consistant; for they are ALWAYS deciding what their GOD told them is NOT what is PRINTED on the pages that have their GOD's WORDS on them.

[Mount Athos]

What's also telling is how far your moral compass is off... ...instead of being digusted how Joseph Smith forced himself upon 14 yo and 16 yo like Lucy Walker -- a girl whose mother had died & whose father was sent to the east coast by Smith... ...instead of being disgusted by how Smith "married" 11 women still married to other men...and how a lot of these men were likewise sent to the mission field... ...instead of being disgusted by Smith, Brigham Young & Warren Jeffs compiling at least 178 wives between this trio... ...instead of being disgusted by how about 120 years of Mormon "prophets" practicing polygamy leads to the likes of a Warren Jeffs... ...you are disgusted by an "expose'" of sorts on all this.

Colofornian, you're wrong about all of that.
I am disgusted by all those Mormon beliefs and practices. I have often criticised them myself.
I have no problem with the articles you posted, I felt they were honest.

It was your summary of the article that was dishonest.

You said, "“To see how the Mormon church tried spinning Warren Jeffs as a continuation of 120 years of polygamous Mormon “prophets” yesterday, see: Warren Jeffs and the abandonment of tradition”

The Mormon church believes and argues no such thing about Warren Jeffs. In fact they've done exactly the opposite of what you say they have -- they explicitly criticise and distance themselves from Jeffs and such groups.

You told a lie about the Mormon Church, you knew it was a lie when you wrote it, and anyone with the most cursory understanding of LDS beliefs knows they don't agree with or sanction Warren Jeffs.

You could have been honest and clarified that you were talking about an offshoot splinter of the Mormon church that is less than 1% of all Mormons, as the article you posted did. But you instead chose to mislead.

What would you think of someone calling the Westboro Baptist group the "Christian church", and falsely arguing that the Christian church loves them and thinks what they do is right? That's the same thing you're doing when you call Warren Jeffs and his ilk the "mormon church", when in reality they're the tiniest splinter offshoot of Mormons today.

Criticise beliefs all you want, but don't lie about what people believe, OK? It's disgusting behavior.

You don't have to agree with someone's beliefs to realize that lying about those beliefs is wrong.

[svcw]

Jeffs did nothing that Joseph Smith didn’t do. PLACE MARKER

[dfwgator]

Jeffs did nothing that Joseph Smith didn’t do.

Or Brigham Young.

[Mount Athos]

Why no. Just wondering if you realize the graphic shows that the FLDS and LDS were both born in the mind of the adulterous so-called prophet and there isn't any truth to either cult?

Yes I realize that. Does that surprise you?
If it does, maybe your reading comprehension is so poor that you thought I was defending the Mormons, rather than criticising someone for lying by claiming that the LDS supports and loves Warren Jeffs. They detest Warren Jeffs.

Your graphic confirms what I said about the FLDS being a tiny offshoot splinter of the mormon church. The graphic says right at the top that such groups together number only 20,000. There are many millions of LDS.

It would be highly misleading to call the FLDS "the mormon church" when they are less than 1% of Mormons.

I have no problem with the graphic which explains Mormon historical beliefs and practices, and how the various splinters relate to each other. Just as I had no problem with both articles criticising Mormon beliefs and history.

[guitarplayer1953]

What I was referring to was the government.

[guitarplayer1953]

What I was referring to was the government.

[svcw]

Huh? For a person who keeps claiming they are not defending mormonISM you sure do spend much time defending it. The flds practice what Joseph Smith taught, the lds group in SLC does not.

[svcw]

You do get that this is the religion forum, right.

[Colofornian]

What would you think of someone calling the Westboro Baptist group the "Christian church", and falsely arguing that the Christian church loves them and thinks what they do is right? That's the same thing you're doing when you call Warren Jeffs and his ilk the "mormon church", when in reality they're the tiniest splinter offshoot of Mormons today.

Your comparison is poor for at least 2 reasons...

(1) The most important consideration is when you look at the defining characteristic of these false "churches":
For the fLDS, it's polygamy.

And what supposed Mormon "scripture" & doctrine backs that up? (Doctrine & Covenants 132 -- NEVER rescinded or changed or deleted by the mainstream Mormons...it exists like an "old law" still "on the books"...one where the "authorities" promise it will return...Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie says polygamy will return to earth when the mainstream Mormon "jesus" returns...Source: McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine)

Now compare Phelps' Westboro.

What defining characteristic is there for this group?
For the Phelps, it's picketing.

Is that mainline Christian "Scripture?" (Answer: NO!)

(2) The Phelps are better defined as one extended family -- versus a "church." (That's about all its "church" is made up of).

(3) Besides, what do you do with the Mormon claim that Mormons = "Christians"? Is it OK for mainstream Mormons to draw boundaries between who is "Mormon" and who isn't? But then they frown upon Christians not defining "Mormons" as Christians? (Is that inconsistent?)

Mormons like to have it both ways: They want Mormons to be considered Christians; but don't you dare define who a Mormon is. Now you're playing that game, too. Of defining who is Mormon -- and who isn't.

Lds "prophet" Hinckley once claimed on the Larry King show that there WAS NO SUCH THING as fundamentalist Mormons. In his view, they don't even exist!

Here, I'll take the time to mention Canadian mainstream Mormon FReeper Edward Watson. Not only does Watson deem the fLDS as Mormon, but he also told me in 2008, "Of course, they're Christian..."

So a fundamentalist Mormon-is a Mormon-is a Christian? (Well, I'm not the one who says "no boundaries exist" for the fLDS or other sociologically outlandish groups like Westboro Baptist).

[guitarplayer1953]

To all I have had some of my facts wrong. But it was a practice of the LDS to have multiple wife's as part of their religious doctrine. They were forced to drop it.

You may not agree with their belief system and some have even compared it to Jim Jones. The point is government has no place sticking its nose into religion. How would some of you like it if the government said that you have to drop the Eucharist because it is witchcraft, or you Amish folks are to strict and are abusing your children by not letting them have cell phones. Or you Baptist are abusing yourselves by going to all you can eat Sunday buffets and must stop it.

A great example of this is the Waco massacre, they began with to many fire arms protected under the 2nd amendment, when that did not fly they were accused of selling drugs and then finally the children are being harmed, so what did they do they went in and torched the place and killed how many women and children? It is the principle of what the government is doing and if they can do it to the LDS they can and will do it to you.

THINK ABOUT IT!

[Mount Athos]

For a person who keeps claiming they are not defending mormonISM you sure do spend much time defending it. The flds practice what Joseph Smith taught, the lds group in SLC does not.

I know that. It's funny you think I don't.

You are not following the discussion.

Let's start at the beginning.

Colofornian said this: "To see how the Mormon church tried spinning Warren Jeffs as a continuation of 120 years of polygamous Mormon "prophets" yesterday, see: Warren Jeffs and the abandonment of tradition" [Real MormonISM]

Read the OTHER article Colofornian links here:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700170419/Warren-Jeffs-and-the-abandonment-of-tradition.html

Now SVCW, tell me did Colofornian accurately summarize it? Does the article actually say that the Mormon church today is spinning Warren Jeffs as a continuation of their prophets?

Not even close.
He could have said the LDS historically practiced polygamy. He could have said a tiny offshoot splinter of Mormonism representing less than 1% of the population practices it today. He could have offered a multitude of valid criticisms about Mormonism, questioning the validity of their beliefs and behavior.

Instead he chose to lie and say the LDS sanctions Warren Jeffs and "spins him as continuation" of their prophets. When the truth is exactly the opposite, the LDS has done everything they can to denigrate and distance themselves from Jeffs and other FLDS type splinter groups.

Why lie?

[svcw]

From the Deseret News, an lds publication.

Modern Mormons and modern polygamists have thus been pursuing divergent paths for more than a century, a much longer period than the founding generation of Mormonism that they jointly claim. The FLDS are entitled to at least the dignity of their own historical development. A lot happens in a hundred years. It is naive to suppose that Jeffs' world is simply a projection of 19th-century Mormonism into the present.

No misrepresentation here about flds vs lds.

Just not seeing your spin here, in the above statement in an lds publication: the LDS has done everything they can to denigrate and distance themselves from Jeffs.

[Mount Athos]

Again, I have no problem with the article.

The article does not confuse LDS vs FLDS.
Colofornian’s summary does.

And the article says exactly the opposite of what Colofornian says it does.

The LDS doesn’t spin Jeffs as a continuation of their prophets, it argues against it.

“It is naive to suppose that Jeffs’ world is simply a projection of 19th-century Mormonism into the present.”

and the concluding sentence,

“Jeffs tells us far less about both modern and historical Mormonism than many observers assume.”

Anyone who says the LDS thinks Warren Jeffs is a continuation of their prophets is simply lying about the LDS. Why conflate the two groups, pretending one sanctions the other, when the orgs are strongly against each other? There are so many valid criticisms of Mormon beliefs, there is no need to stoop to this behavior.