Posted on 08/16/2011 7:16:05 AM PDT by marbren
I'm not sure we disagree is substance, but only in the peripheries.
The raising of clerics to a status above the congregation has led to some of the worst heresies in Christianity.
I think our disagreement is more in the lines of whether the status is superior in kind or merely superior in appointment. While a pastor should not be viewed as some kind of spiritual superman, I do believe that there must be a superior authority when it comes down to the final say in where the ship is going to be steered. I dare say that when the job is delegated to a committee, the results are no better then when the job is delgated to a single individual. If you were in the Methodist Church right now, who would you prefer to be steering your ecclesiastical ship, xzins, or a committee of the leadership of the United Methodist church? To whom would you delegate that power over the congregation.
I think the Apostolic Era model of pastors/elders being chosen from the congregation is the better example. The pastors are subject to the elders and in turn the congregation. The congregation follows the pastor because of the authority granted to him by the elders and the congregation itself. In this model it is much harder for heresy to grow beyond any one congregation.
Isn't that the model used by the United Church of Christ? Isn't this also the model used by the Presbyterian Church USA?
Frankly I see the same problem in both models. What if the tares outnumber the wheat in a congregation? Then the pastor is at the mercy of the tares.
Having the lead does not mean superiority, or absolute authority over a congregation.
I would agree with that. However would you not agree that by the fact that the congregation has elected this person to be the pastor, that the congregation is obligated by virtue of his office to either follow his lead or remove him from command?
The problem with an elevated clergy is the congregation tends not to first search Scripture, or seek guidance from God.
True, but the problem with an elevated congregation is that the ship has no rudder and when the tares outnumber the wheat, the ship is lost. I dare say that the tares outnumber the wheat in all those churches where they have embraced homosexuality. You don't find that too much in those churches that are led by a strong pastor. The pastor sets the agenda and not the congregation. Both models are open to corruption.
I'm more or less ambivalent as to which model is used. The ultimate question is what kind of fruit is being produced in the church?
FWIW, the article concerns a guy who would throw out all pastors simply because he claims the office is unbiblical.
The answer will be an honest, comprehensive biblical answer. It will take into account every instance in the bible that gives insight.
I think there is evidence biblically for both hierarchy and local independence. I think there is evidence for both a presiding elder pastor/bishop, and I think there is evidence for a body of elders.
The relationships COULD be the following. The bible will be the rule.
The presiding elder is the local connection to the hierarchy
The presiding elder officiates at the local church
The presiding elder groups with the body of elders
body of elders informs/communicates with the hierarchy
body of elders multiplies ministry at the local church
body of elders groups with the presiding elder
This is probably true. I think a Pastor should be treated with respect and the decision of the congregation should be supported until something that is clearly contrary to Scripture occurs, or is taught. At that point I believe the correct course is to take ones concerns to the Elders.
While a pastor should not be viewed as some kind of spiritual superman, I do believe that there must be a superior authority when it comes down to the final say in where the ship is going to be steered.
The authority is derived from the congregation and ultimately it is up to the congregation to remove that authority if the ship is being steered into heresy.
However would you not agree that by the fact that the congregation has elected this person to be the pastor, that the congregation is obligated by virtue of his office to either follow his lead or remove him from command?
Yes
Frankly I see the same problem in both models. What if the tares outnumber the wheat in a congregation? Then the pastor is at the mercy of the tares.
We are seeing this play out in several churches that are in decline. The lost have taken over and lead the church with Pastors who are just as lost. A strong Christian element is trying to correct the problem and return to Biblical Christianity and where they have failed they are leaving and forming new churches.
the problem with an elevated congregation is that the ship has no rudder and when the tares outnumber the wheat, the ship is lost. I dare say that the tares outnumber the wheat in all those churches where they have embraced homosexuality.
I absolutely agree.
However, look at the example we are given at The Jerusalem Council.
Acts 15:6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
v. 22: Then it pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul...
Decisions were not dictated by one man.
Christianity can be messy, but where an absolute authority is established it's messier.
All the writing in my previous post and I forgot to clarify my position on this important point. I think he's wrong. We need to gather in a worthy manner, we need to grow as we proceed in our Christian walk and to do these things we need leaders.
Our discussion is more along the lines of the level of authority of those that are given leadership.
As a Baptist that believes in our independent church structure this probably is the only area where we disagree. Baptist Churches are connected by association but no hierarchy dictates to the local church. It's messy at times and a great many Baptist churches have been turned into not much more than political organizations, but the opposite is true as well.
That was not a preacher. That was a prophet. They certainly are not the sam.
What if God calls the Pastor to a flock?
“Putting it simply; Pastors are Elders. Or Shepherds, Presbyters, Bishops, Overseers, and etc.
“Two verses to consider.I Timothy 3:1-7 and
Titus 1:5-9
“Scriptural terms misused by denominations: Titus 2:1
“Applying “pastor” as a synonym for the pulpit preacher. All pastors are pulpit preachers, but not all preachers are pastors.
“Applying “pastor” “Elder” or “Bishop” to any women. Women are forbidden to be such: 1 Tim 2:12
“Applying “pastor” to any young man, any single man, or a married man who has no children, or a married man whose children are not faithful in Christ
“Applying “evangelist” exclusively to pulpit preachers who preach in different churches every Sunday, while refusing to call a “located preacher” an “evangelist” because he preaches in the same church every Sunday. The terms, evangelist, preacher and minister are interchangeable terms and the Bible makes no distinction as to whether the minister is located or moving around from week to week.”
Excellent.
A much needed reference to scripture to clear up a lot of confusion created by misuse of Biblical terms.
We do agree!
Christianity can be messy, but where an absolute authority is established it's messier.
Well, scripture is the ABSOLUTE authority. And where that is not the case, Christianity is REALLY messy. :-)
Let me answer this as a Calvinistic Baptist would likely respond:
Then the congregation will be called to elect him.
Evenry coin has two sides, doesn’t it?
Every coin has two sides, doesn’t it?
Yes that may be correct. After the congregation follows the Holy Spirit and makes a unanimous call, Who decides when the Pastor takes a new call?
Punctuation in your statement?
It makes no sense the way it is.
I do not know but Thank God God knows
Having been raised in an independent baptist church, and attending until into my early twenties, I know that a connected hierarchy (association) exists even with the most independent. All that I have ever seen are connected to the others in their location. They share special meetings, youth programs, etc.
The senior pastor is the connection to the association.
And this is even with the most vocally independent of them.
When those pastors get together and discuss things, there is no rule making body that forces the other churches to change, but I guarantee you that agreed upon consensus items are quickly brought forward in all of the churches of the association.
You are right Salvation
Which is better:
I do not know but, thank God, God knows
or
I do not know. Thank God, God knows
Jesus vowed to build his church on that fundamental confession voiced by Peter, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” The Christian church, the Body of Christ on Earth, can have no other valid basis.
My congregation has a pastor, but we are centered on Jesus Christ and what He has done and does for us, not on the person of our pastor who, like every member of the congregation is by nature human and a sinner in need of forgiveness, redemption and salvation. While we treasure his talents and all he does to serve God and His little flock in this place at this time, the Word of God as recorded in our Bible is the final arbiter of truth.
The Bible doesn’t have the word Trinity either, now does it?
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