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Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre
History.Com ^ | Aug 24 | Unknown

Posted on 08/21/2011 4:55:48 AM PDT by HarleyD

King Charles IX of France, under the sway of his mother, Catherine de Medici, orders the assassination of Huguenot Protestant leaders in Paris, setting off an orgy of killing that results in the massacre of tens of thousands of Huguenots all across France.

Two days earlier, Catherine had ordered the murder of Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, a Huguenot leader whom she felt was leading her son into war with Spain. However, Coligny was only wounded, and Charles promised to investigate the assassination in order to placate the angry Huguenots. Catherine then convinced the young king that the Huguenots were on the brink of rebellion, and he authorized the murder of their leaders by the Catholic authorities. Most of these Huguenots were in Paris at the time, celebrating the marriage of their leader, Henry of Navarre, to the king's sister, Margaret.

A list of those to be killed was drawn up, headed by Coligny, who was brutally beaten and thrown out of his bedroom window just before dawn on August 24. Once the killing started, mobs of Catholic Parisians, apparently overcome with bloodlust, began a general massacre of Huguenots. Charles issued a royal order on August 25 to halt the killing, but his pleas went unheeded as the massacres spread. Mass slaughters continued into October, reaching the provinces of Rouen, Lyon, Bourges, Bourdeaux, and Orleans. An estimated 3,000 French Protestants were killed in Paris, and as many as 70,000 in all of France. The massacre of Saint Bartholomew's Day marked the resumption of religious civil war in France.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: massacre; stbartholomew
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1 posted on 08/21/2011 4:55:57 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: TSgt; RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; Dutchboy88; ...

History ping...


2 posted on 08/21/2011 4:59:47 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; SunkenCiv
I am reminded of the very old quote:
"No one has killed more Frenchmen than the French themselves."...I do not know who originally said this, but I remember my Father quoting it in the mid-50s when I was a young spud. And I think it was very old then.
3 posted on 08/21/2011 5:21:02 AM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, Ergo Conservitus.)
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To: HarleyD
Half the settlers of Nieuw-Amsterdam were Huguenots. My last name traces to a Huguenot settler in Nieuw-Amsterdam recorded in the 1664 Dutch census, living in Brunswick, part of what is now Brooklyn and owning a goat. By 1695 he was Dutch Reform minister in Staten Island.

My father's middle name was Bartholomew and my grandfather was anti-Catholic, although he married an Irish girl, he forbad the family from entering a Catholic church. This may have been in part shaped by the experiences of his grandfather who commanded a Police precinct in New York during the July, 1863 draft riots, mainly fueled by Irish immigrants.

4 posted on 08/21/2011 5:47:18 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Somewhere in Kenya a village is missing its idiot)
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To: HarleyD

In before the *Yeah but the Protestants.......*


5 posted on 08/21/2011 5:47:39 AM PDT by metmom (Be the kind of woman that when you wake in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
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To: metmom

LoL...


6 posted on 08/21/2011 6:14:21 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: HarleyD
Yes and this massacre (1572) was by no means the end of it - the War for Netherlands's Independence (1568-1648) had severe religious roots and was ongoing right at this time. A generation later came the Thirty Years War (1618-1648) in the German Nations and through Central Europe that probably had some of the worst killings in their mutual Savior's name.

Throughout history, ruthless and or desperate people have seized upon 'otherness' to rally towards desired goals. The deeper the emotion, the more force it generates and for that religion is hard to beat!

This is what our FOUNDERS were thinking when they penned the FIRST AMENDMENT clause for FREEDOM OF RELIGION! They saw the history of the state-mandated religion and these abuses and made it clear that our government would have no such thing for our country. It is the recent generations of illiberal de-constructists who have turned it into "Freedom from Religion"!

7 posted on 08/21/2011 6:21:13 AM PDT by SES1066 (1776 to 2011, 235 years and counting in the GRAND EXPERIMENT!)
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To: HarleyD

Funny, you never hear very many Gaspards in the roll calls at kindergarten these days


8 posted on 08/21/2011 6:26:58 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (George Lopez is the black hole of funny. Nothing funny can escape his suck.)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

My father told me we were from the Huguenots (Merrill), but did not talk of the persecution. Out family came over in the early 1700s. I suspect it was because of the religious persecutions common in those days.


9 posted on 08/21/2011 6:41:52 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

My father told me we were from the Huguenots (Merrill), but did not talk of the persecution. Our family came over in the early 1700s. I suspect it was because of the religious persecutions common in those days.


10 posted on 08/21/2011 6:42:05 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: sr4402
The fact that half the settlers in Nieuw Nederlands were Huguenots speaks to the scale of the Huguenot diaspora. The clockmakers of Switzerland were Huguenot gunsmiths gone pacifist. Every country in Europe has Huguenot populations. (E.g., the top Luftwaffe fighter General, Adolf Galland, was a Huguenot descendant.) There is still a Huguenot historical association in the Hudson Valley. New Rochelle, NY was named for the Huguenot stronghold of Rochelle France, and to this very day its library is called the Huguenot Library, although the current population is latter day minorities.
11 posted on 08/21/2011 6:53:29 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Somewhere in Kenya a village is missing its idiot)
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To: Tainan
My dad told me General Patton once said "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me"

Joan of Arc saved France from the English, then turned her over to the English to be burned at the stake (after all sorts of interrogation and trials of course). Now France claims her as a national hero.

12 posted on 08/21/2011 6:55:21 AM PDT by SkyDancer (You know, they invented wheelbarrows to teach government employees how to walk on their hind legs.)
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To: HarleyD

Ever hear of Nicholas Martiau? I’ve read that half the english speaking people in the world are related to him. One of his descendants was George Washington.


13 posted on 08/21/2011 7:54:18 AM PDT by Rider on the Rain
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
Hugenot Street in New Paltz, NY is billed as the "oldest continuously inhabited street in the United States." There are very neat, very low walled stone houses along the street. Towns full of weirdo libs, though.

There is a stained glass window in the New-York Historical Society's library on Central Park West depicting Louis XIV revoking the Edict of Nantes. (I think the king is running his sword through it.) I assume the founders of the society were linking their family histories to the diaspora that act caused.

14 posted on 08/21/2011 8:50:46 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: HarleyD
Pope Gegory Medal comemmorating the Massacre

See releated threads:
Protest Songs [review of "Les Huguenots", an opera about the St Bartholomew Massacre]
HISTORY OF THE HUGUENOTS
The Huguenots - their faith, history, and impact.
FOX'S BOOK OF MARTYRS, CHAPTER IV, Papal Persecutions

15 posted on 08/21/2011 12:16:59 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed: he's hated on seven continents)
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To: SES1066

>”They saw the history of the state-mandated religion and these abuses and made it clear that our government would have no such thing for our country. It is the recent generations of illiberal de-constructists who have turned it into “Freedom from Religion”!”

Yes, as they also did not mean this meant the official institution of atheistic secularism, which has effectively been the result.

The fact is by not allowing such things as any sanctioned prayer by teachers,m etc it sends a message to the country that we do not see ourselves in need of help from a Creator, or deem anyone more than man worthy of our gratitude. Thus it officially fosters agnosticism or atheism.

One can argue that not allowing state sanctioned prayer means we recognize the state has no business in that, but you cannot separate the state from a basic belief system and practices, and in a Democracy the people will decide what that is.

And in America the Christian faith was it, and in the general sense the Gov., including the writers of the 1st Amendment, overall sanctioned it, and which was reflected in courts and schools for a long time.

And by censoring churches from endorsing candidates within the church itself via 501(3)(c) (voluntary but basically needed) then it seeks to silence not just gov. from positively speaking about religion, but religion from speaking about government, contrary the 1st Amendment.

Yet this means of establishment does allow that the people may choose to officially sanction atheism, and with officially sanctioned secularism - which is intolerant of official sanction of the general Christian faith - then it has. And which functionally serves as religion in determining an ever morphing morality, to our collective hurt. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#TABLE


16 posted on 08/21/2011 12:46:44 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: Alex Murphy

Excerpts from:

Christ the King : Lord of History
by, Anne W. Carroll, pages 244-251.

Philip was crowned king of Spain in 1556. … In thanksgiving to God, Philip began the construction of a monastery-palace in honor of St Lawrence … This building symbolizes Philip’s character strong, unostentatious, centered on Christ. It contains his “throne”—a simple canvas stool under a painting of the Crucifixion, and the magnificent basilica where he would slip in quietly to pray as he bore the great burdens of his office. …

[After Philip’s wedding] Philip took his gentle, lovely wife [Isabel of Valois] home, leaving France under the rule of Francis II and Mary Stuart, assisted by the Guises.

Calvinism had made strong headway among French aristocrats (though the majority of the ordinary French people held to the Catholic Church), as nobles saw the new religion as a means of wresting political power from the crown and from the Catholic nobility. With Henry II dead and a weak, young king on the throne, the Huguenots (French Calvinists) under the leadership of Admiral Coligny saw an opportunity to seize power. In March 1560 came the shadowy plot known as the Conspiracy or Tumult of Amboise, in which certain Huguenots—probably with Cecil’s connivance and with the support of Calvin himself, who had said that it was lawful to slay those who hindered the preaching of Calvin­ism—attempted to kidnap Francis and murder the Guises. They hoped to control Francis and influence him to be Calvinist. The plot was uncovered and the head of the Guise family, Duke Francis, moved against the ringleaders.

Furious at the failure of their plot, and encouraged by Cecil, who urged them to make good use of “their pen and weapons,” the Huguenots began the Wars of Religion in France, sweeping the country with a wave of diabolical anti-Catholic atrocities during 1561 Churches were devastated; nuns and priests were scourged and killed; the tombs of saints were vio­lated. At Montpellier the Huguenots sacked 60 churches and killed 150 priests and monks. The famous monastery of Cluny, from which had come the great reform of the Church in the tenth and eleventh centuries, was looted. All that remained of two of France’s most famous saints, Irenaeus of Lyons and Martin of Tours, was thrown into the Loire River, the incor­rupt body of St Francis of Paola was taken from its tomb, dragged through the streets and burned.

By this time, Francis II had died; and Catherine d’Medici, Henry II’s widow, was ruling in the name of the young Charles IX. …

Catherine would wield power for thirty years, manipulating her children as so many pawns on a chessboard, seeking power for herself and her family, putting personal gain ahead of the rights of the Church.

Catherine was already well-practiced in defying the Church Forced into a political marriage at 14 (to further Francis I’s ambitions in Italy), she had felt her position threatened because she had borne no children after ten years of marriage. Prayers and pilgrimages had not relieved her bar­renness. So she turned from God to a power she felt could get things done more efficiently witchcraft and devil worship. On January 19, 1544, Francis was born, and Catherine bore a child a year for the next decade.

But no one can defy the laws of God without eventually suffering the consequences. And the consequences for the children Catherine bore were frightening to behold: Francis, dead before he was 17, his brain half-rotted away; Isabel, a loving and loyal wife to Philip, but dead in her early 20’s; Claude, crippled from birth and welcoming her death at 27; Louis, Jean, Victor, all dead within a year of their baptisms Charles, insane and dead at 24; Hercule, stunted and misshapen, dead at 30; Marguerite, so beautiful that men traveled hundreds of miles simply to look at her, yet never able to bear children and pursuing a life of immorality with terrible energy un­til she grew old and sick and ugly and returned to the God her mother had forsaken; Henri, greedy, perverted, assassinated in his 38th year.

No one can sin except through his own free will choice, but some­times the innocent suffer because of the sins of others. Catherine’s children were responsible for their own souls, but each one of them suffered be­cause of their mother’s sins. And so, tragically, did France.

Following close upon Calvinist gains in France, Cecil begin stirring up trouble in the Low Countries (also known as the Netherlands, or Holland and Belgium). William of Orange, who took favors from Philip and promised loyalty, plotted against him behind his back with Cecil and Coligny. The Protestant nobles were against Philip for religious reasons primarily, but they also wanted political freedom and complete control of the wealth of the Low Countries. In 1566 a group of the noblemen came before Margaret of Parma, Philip’s governor in the Netherlands, with insolent demands. One of her companions said, “Don’t be afraid of these beggars,” so the next time they came dressed in rags. Their rebellion is therefore sometimes called the Revolt of the Beggars. Margaret was willing to consider such of their requests as were reasonable and Philip himself had made concessions, but they were not willing to compromise: they wanted Spain and the Catholic Church out of the Netherlands.

On August 16, 1566, the great cathedral of Antwerp was gutted by a Calvinist mob. They began by smashing the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary that had been carried in solemn procession the preceding Sunday; they chopped off the heads of statues of Christ with axes and transfixed other images and pictures of Christ with swords; they assaulted a great old crucifix, which displayed the two thieves between whom Christ was crucified, leaving untouched the thieves, but hacking the form of Christ to pieces. They smashed stained glass windows and the great organ, and stole and defiled the vessels and plate. From Antwerp the destruction spread all over the Low Countries, until in the incredibly short time of six weeks the churches in more than 400 towns and villages had been sacked. In Antwerp alone more than 25 churches were devastated in the one terrible night of August 16-17. …

Meanwhile in France, Catherine d’Medici, who of course had sent no aid in response to the Pope’s call for a crusade against the Turks, was be­coming fearful that the Huguenots were gaining too much power over Charles, as her son came to rely more on Coligny and less on his mother. On August 22, 1572, Catherine tried to have Coligny assassinated, but the assassin failed and only wounded hint Catherine now feared that her son would find out her involvement in the assassination attempt. So she delib­erately provoked Charles—whose mind was unbalanced—into an insane rage, so that he ordered the murder of all the Huguenot leaders in Paris. Catherine and Henri of Guise, Duke Francis’ son, drew up the list. On Au­gust 24, the feast of St. Bartholomew, soldiers of the French king system­atically struck down the Huguenot leaders. But having unleashed the vio­lence, Charles and Catherine were unable to stop it, and the soldiers ran wild, killing nearly 5,000 Huguenots, including women and children, in what is known as the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. This atrocity gave the Calvinists further anti-Catholic propaganda, though Catherine had or­dered the killings not for the sake of the Church but to increase her own power.

Christ the King : Lord of History
by, Anne W. Carroll


17 posted on 08/21/2011 12:47:22 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
Perhaps we could have a co-celebration with the Easter Sunday Rebellion, potato famine of the 1840's, Know Nothing movement in this nation, to commemorate protestant atrocities which have been manifest throughout the centuries since the reformation.

A replay to the 1928 presidential election when Al Smith was greeted by tens of thousands of the Klan in Oklahoma would provide suitable backdrop.

18 posted on 08/21/2011 1:48:19 PM PDT by bronx2 (while Jesus is the Alpha /Omega He has given us rituals which you reject to obtain the graces as to)
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To: bronx2; vladimir998
The thing is that like many other tales brought up by our friends here, these are marketing lies of a 500 year old, failed product and one that is fading fast, hence the desperation to spread their untruths

If one looks at the real history of the same people who lead to the Junkers and Prussian sensibility that outlined German history from 1870 to 1945

let's trace the Huguenots, shall we. In france, under Francis I, France was tolerant of all religious views

however, what did the Huguenots do? In the affair of the placards they posted placards all over Paris and even on the bedchamber door of the king (a security breach that angered him and made him change his tolerance position) -- these placards were attacks on Catholics.

So, instead of discussing, the Huguenots went to attack the Catholic majority who until then were content to let them live and debate and discuss and debate. Incidently, until this time the Huguenots were increasing, like the Moslems in Bradford, but then they started to get shrill and wake people up with their attacks

This polemic was an attack and the Huguenots started this retaliation.This was in 1534

Next, came the French wars of religion in which the Huguenots conspired against the King. This, added to the previous attack meant that they now publically came to attack the conservative forces. The progressives of the Huguenots were the precursors of the Revolutionaires

The people who became Huguenots were primarily the urban elite, like our present-day New Yorkers who take a fad and they saw that this was a means to oppose the King, so Huguenotism became a political tool

A group of Huguenots tried to kidnap the Prince Francis II when his father died -- causing more antagonism.

Huguenots in 1560 attacked Catholic Churchs and destroyed properties in Rouen and La Rochelle -- thus the FIRST salvo was lobbed by the Huguenots. -- the Catholics retailiated with mobs at seeing their places of worship attacked and defiled by Huguenots

Next, in 1562-70, we have the wars -- now political-religious, so no, it was not a simple case of "persecution" --> The Huguenots were one side of a civil war, which they lost

Now, let's come to the juicy part, the St. Bart's day massacre -- this occured in 1572, 40 years after the first provocations by the Huguenots and 12 years after they started destroying Catholic Churchs (just like the Moslems in America they were quiet until their numbers grew)

now, King Charles XI was openly in favor of the Huguenots -- so a political moment. Hence the attacks on the opposing side

So, let's see in conclusion -- Huguenots first start their provocations in 1534, then in 1560 start attacking Catholic Churchs (with no provocation), then start their political support against the conservatives and start a civil war. After 12 years their side loses the civil war and yet they are still allowed to live and practise their faith (note this is the 1500s, not a nice time, yet they get this tolerance) -- but they still play political intrigues. So, one faction starts to attack and massacre the other faction

so, their proponents ought to stop the entire "poor persecuted Huguenots" -- they brought it on themselves.

19 posted on 08/21/2011 2:27:25 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: bronx2; vladimir998
To continue with the real history of these same people who lead to the Junkers and Prussian sensibility that outlined German history from 1870 to 1945

the Huguenots after doing their persecuting of Catholics, got retaliation, then they went to England and many to South Africa where they were among the racists enforcing Apartheid.

Many came to the US and Germany as well.

In England and Germany they were Calvinists in non-Calvinist lands, but no "persecution". In the US they were one of many and no, no "persecutions". In South Africa they were one of the folks doing the persecutions and in Northern Germany they enthusiastically participated in the Kulturkampf.

20 posted on 08/21/2011 2:30:11 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: bronx2; vladimir998
And finally one asks:

what persecution did they face once they left France?

As shown above (and one can check the facts for oneself), the Huguenots were the one who bit the hand that fed them, then launched the first attacks, started a civil war and then lost

They were like the Moslems in present day France -- slowly starting, making nice noises, but then attacking Christian churchs and finally starting a civil war.

They lost, tough luck --- the losers in the 1500s were not given much graces, yet they were allowed to stay with the same acts of tolerance AFTER losing politically. Yet they continued supporting political intrigues and there was a political massacre.

The Huguenots were on the losing side, so they got killed like the Catholics in England or in Scandanavia.

It was the 1500s, a pretty barbaric time

The mass killings of the Huguenots were done at the hands of rioters in a pogrom after it was learned that the Huguenots were conspiring with the English to stage a coup and facilitate an invasion. It is never healthy to conspire against a sitting king. After this, one branch became the persecutors in South Africa, another branch, many would have joined the KKK (I'm not implying all by any means, but many)

these guys slapped the King that was supporting them, and silently stood grew and then became a threat, first attacking Churches, committing acts of sacrilege (when their numbers grew to 5-10% like the Moslems) and then launching civil war.

The Huguenots were on the losing side, so they got killed like the Catholics in England or in Scandanavia.

It was the 1500s, a pretty barbaric time

The mass killings of the Huguenots were done at the hands of rioters in a pogrom after it was learned that the Huguenots were conspiring with the English to stage a coup and facilitate an invasion. It is never healthy to conspire against a sitting king.

21 posted on 08/21/2011 2:30:54 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: bronx2
Perhaps we could have a co-celebration with the Easter Sunday Rebellion, potato famine of the 1840's.

Well yeah, if you want to compare mass murder to jay walking. Lighten up. I love Catholics. We hard working God Fearing Americans, protestant, Catholic, and Jewish, must together oppose the marxist elitists.

22 posted on 08/21/2011 3:04:33 PM PDT by Rider on the Rain
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To: Tainan; Cincinna

:’) Thanks Tainan.


23 posted on 08/21/2011 4:27:38 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Rider on the Rain
Millions died in the potato famine of the 1840's and millions more died thanks to the exercise of Christian British paternalism throughout the past few centuries.. So yes , the St Bartholomew's massacre was merely a gentle tap relative to the atrocities perpetrated by the Brits against the Church.
24 posted on 08/21/2011 8:00:42 PM PDT by bronx2 (while Jesus is the Alpha /Omega He has given us rituals which you reject to obtain the graces as to)
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To: Rider on the Rain; bronx2
We hard working God Fearing Americans, protestant, Catholic, and Jewish, must together oppose the marxist elitists.

I fully agree with you. Posting this one incident from 400 years ago when there were social and political causes mixed in (as much as religious) is one of the left's ways of attempting to split us up.

That two political factions attacked each other 400+ years ago has no relevance to us today.

did you notice that the media has tried hard to ignore the World Youth Day in Spain where nearly 2 million young Christians came to show their enthusiasm for Christ? This goes against the left's agenda that "God is dead" and they wanted to keep it quiet. Of course there were the usual gay supporters protesting that the pope said marriage is between one man and one woman that cannot be broken, and the media tried to light on that, but it only came out showing the gays as the attackers.

ROTR is correct -- we should all together remember our real enemies today.

25 posted on 08/21/2011 10:24:33 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: HarleyD

Thanks for the Ping!
The Huguenots were the mainstay of the functioning of the State in France- the managers, accountants, and planners ( it’s that Protestant work ethic thing) many were highly trained trained gold and silversmiths, and other artisans. The massacre and the flight of the Huguenots are believed by many to be one of the underlying causes of the French Revolution.
Many Huguenots escaped and fled to the New World and to Russia, then to America. Carl Fabergé and Paul Revere come to mind.


26 posted on 08/22/2011 12:41:10 AM PDT by Cincinna ( *** NOBAMA 2012 ***)
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To: Cronos

Comparing the Huguenots to Muslems is despicable.


27 posted on 08/22/2011 12:49:07 AM PDT by Cincinna ( *** NOBAMA 2012 ***)
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To: Cincinna
Why? The facts are that the tactics used by both these groups in France were/are the same

In the 1500s, they were nicey,nice, quietly growing. In france, under Francis I, France was tolerant of all religious views -- but the H's got into the mood to bite the hand and this is illustrated in "the affair of the placards" in 1534 which directly challenged the king's authority and even security

These went on to attack the then tolerant majority in France -- again, just like the Moslems do now

in 1560, the H's were the ones who started the first destruction of ancient Churches -- note the first salvo was started by the Huguenots

Now, 40 years after the first confrontation by the Huguenots the St. Bart's massacre occurs -- 40 years after the country had been infiltrated by these people and who 25 years after the affair of the placards had started attacking Churches

these Huguenots then played the political game supporting the old enemy -- the English against France

They acted then just as the Moslems in France are acting now.

28 posted on 08/22/2011 2:42:01 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cincinna

Yes, we generally got the better Huguenots to America, however the ones who went to South Africa perpetuated apartheid and the ones who went to Prussia reinforced the Prussian militaristic regime which went on to perpetuate such atrocities as the Kulturkampf and the forcible re-organization of Germania into a Prussian influenced Germany that went on a straight Prussian trajectory up until 1945...


29 posted on 08/22/2011 2:45:23 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cincinna
Of course note that in the first place the comparison of one religious group infiltrating France and ultimately attacking the dominant religious group's buildings and challenging the politics is exactly the same tactic whether H or M

Secondly, the various actions of those H's have no influence on the descendents of these folks -- just as no doubt most of us have the blood of various conquerors, defeated, tyrants, saints, sinners etc.

Thirdly, the actions of the H descendants in Prussia have no relation to the morality of descendants in America today -- these were 5th/6th or more distant cousins 4 - 5 times removed.

30 posted on 08/22/2011 2:51:42 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: metmom; HarleyD
In before the *Yeah but the Protestants.......*

Lol

In after the "Yeah but the Protestants....."

31 posted on 08/22/2011 6:27:39 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights; HarleyD

Why am I not surprised?

Predictable as the sunrise.


32 posted on 08/22/2011 7:48:14 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slave)
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To: Cronos

The Huguenots didn’t “infiltrate” France. They were French, Français de souche who were enlightened by the Reformation. Read a good history of the Reformation, then come back, minus your anti-Protestant bias and ignorance.


33 posted on 08/22/2011 10:43:52 AM PDT by Cincinna ( *** NOBAMA 2012 ***)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...
"...posted placards all over Paris..."

"...polemic was an attack"

"...attacked Catholic Churchs and destroyed properties..."

That anyone in the Roman Catholic community could possibly equate placards, arguing, and even destroying property with the slaughter of humans is remarkable. Although it is almost assuredly in doubt, even if what you claimed were completely true, that you would conclude the Huguenots "brought it on themselves" discloses much about Rome's deep need for props and its absence of understanding faith, alone. No wonder the Reformation got traction.

Real reform, the heart of the Huguenot message, meant that reliance upon human anything, is a return to Law, a slavery promoted by Rome (read the Catholic historian excerpt), but despised by the Apostle Paul (read Galatians, Romans, Acts). Rome clung to self-reliance, in spite of claims they acknowledge Augustine's victory over Pelagius and have since morphed that into a reliance upon Rome.

The trust which the Holy Spirit creates in the soul of an elect believer recognizes grace as an unmerited favor which removes the need for anything...except Jesus. Rome, on the other hand, kills for statues, bones, bricks and placards. Astonishing that they would admit it.

34 posted on 08/22/2011 10:52:33 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Cincinna
Of course they infiltrated France with their attitude to destroy Churches. Their attitude was like the Moslems of today. First step, they were nicey nice

Second step they bite the hand of the government that was tolerant

Third step they destroyed Churches

Fourth step, they collaborated with the enemy of the state (a competing power)

They lost and got evicted -- that's what happens to those who are traitors to the nation.

35 posted on 08/22/2011 11:34:29 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cincinna
And I've read both sides and relatively unbiased views of the Reformatting

However, that is besides the point, this was a historical article, not a religious one so please do not make it one

Historically speaking the Huguenots DID slap the hand of the government that had tolerated it, just as the Moslems do in France today

Historically speaking they did the attack the majority first and destroy Churches -- the first salvo so to speak

Historically speaking they did collaborate with the enemies of the nation and foment civil war

Do read up on the history of this time in France and the civil war that this caused. The Huguenots were one side of the civil war -- even worse, they collaborated with the ancienne enemy (England). They were hence traitors to the nation as well as fomenters of civil war.

They lost and got massacred, that's what happened in all times right up to the present.

This was a socio-political conflict with a religious dimension and this article specifically talks about the historical aspect (it IS from the History channel), so do look at this aspect.

36 posted on 08/22/2011 11:42:35 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

FYI
In France today, Protestants are among the most prosperous, successful, and politically powerful people in France. It’s that darned Protestant work ethic thing.

The overwhelming majority of Americans are Protestants.
Almost all Evangelicals are Calvinists.

There are FReepers here who are Protestant, Jewish, and Catholic , Orthodox, Mormon etc. This trashing of different denominations and beliefs and comparing Christians to Islam is misplaced and doesn’t belong here.


37 posted on 08/22/2011 11:48:48 AM PDT by Cincinna ( *** NOBAMA 2012 ***)
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To: Dutchboy88
That anyone in the Roman Catholic community could possibly equate placards, arguing, and even destroying property with the slaughter of humans is remarkable. Although it is almost assuredly in doubt, even if what you claimed were completely true, that you would conclude the Huguenots "brought it on themselves" discloses much about Rome's deep need for props and its absence of understanding faith, alone....[Rome] kills for statues, bones, bricks, and placards. Astonishing that they would admit it.

Hey, we have (some) Catholics right here on FR who have called for a new Inquisition, and called for the destruction of our Constitutional Republic so as to replace it with a Catholic Monarchy. And they do so while claiming to be "conservatives" and that Protestants are the real "liberals".

IMO there's nothing at all astonishing about it. It's what they do and believe.

38 posted on 08/22/2011 5:52:20 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed: he's hated on seven continents)
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To: Cincinna
Actually, the work ethic thing is also a myth. Let me explain why:

  1. The places considered as the sources of this industriousness were the Netherlands primarily and secondarily parts of England. YET, the Netherlands region (present day Netherlands + Belgium) were industrious right from the 11th century - BRugges etc. were centres of industry as was Genoa and Pisa and Venice.

  2. Remember also that the Netherlands was also very Catholic (modern day Belgium split away in 1830)

  3. The places in which the industrial revolution really took off in the late 1700s to the 1800s was in the triangle of London-Paris-Amsterdam. This was Anglican, Catholic, Calvinist in population

    so, hence it was not religious but more regional

  4. Next, the capitalist institutions that kicked off this work ethic, like banking etc. were started and in many cases perfected BEFORE the reformation -- in places like the Italian city states

  5. Delacroix points out that Amsterdam's wealth was centered on Catholic families; the economically advanced German Rhineland is more Catholic than non-Catholic; all-Catholic Belgium was the second country to industrialize, ahead of a good half-dozen non-Catholic entities.'"

  6. The same author also compares the level of economic development across various Anglican, Calvinist, Lutheran, Catholic countries and finds no evidence that one group outperforms another

    The reason for this myth in America is that many see countries as monolithically one religion, which is not correct:

    • Germany is 40% or more Catholic and the major industrial zones are in the southern, Catholic areas -- like Bavaria (BMW, Adidas, Puma) or Swabia or in the Rhineland.
    • Belgium as we see above is mainly Catholic, and has the same or better growth levels than non-Catholic countries
    • Switzerland is 30% Catholic

  7. The myth starts with the Puritans who being primarily city folk didn't choose good lands to farm in in the US, and also brought in old world crops that required more work yet brought in less bounty. They then HAD to work hard to survive. The Puritans also then started up the entire Prosperity Gospel that doing well must be a sign of God’s favor, perhaps even a sign that the successful person had received salvation through God’s grace!

  8. Then of course in the late 1800s, Irish and Italian immigrants came who were poorer and the myth really got under way!

you can see more details in post 523, the second map

39 posted on 08/22/2011 7:26:54 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cincinna
common historical mis-statement by some posters is whether scientific breakthrough was purely or even lead by "Protestant nations"
Let's set the historical background first -- Europe in 1500. Population estimates taken from Internet Medieval Source book

Country

Population (millions)

Position as a nation-state

British Isles

3

Until the end of the 100 years wars, it seemed that England and France would merge under one king.  When the English lost and were thrown out of Western France, that led to the consolidation of both England and France as nation-states with language unity.

However, Scotland still was independent and the Welsh chaffed under English rule.

Ireland is reduced to warring clans.

France & low countries

12

See above.  France emerges as the strongest nation-state, but is really an empire with the northern, “French-speaking” population around Paris ruling over the southern l’Oil areas.  The French had recently destroyed and conquered the Duchy of Burgundy

 

The low countries (Belgium, Netherlands) are part of Spain and remain so until 1600.  These were once the capitals of the Holy Roman Empire (Bruges was once a center of trade) and hence have a larger population, more trade and commerce.  

Belgium is part of Holland until 1830 even though it is completely Catholic.  In 1830 it fights and gets independence.

Germany & Scandanavia

7.3

No sense of nation-state until Napoleon and even then as nation-states like Hesse, Bavaria, etc. not as Germany (that only happens post WWI and more especially post WWII when Germans from Eastern Europe who have lived in EE for centuries are thrown out to Germany)

Scandanavia has a stronger sense of nation-states, but the Swedes are in union with the Geats (Goths) and the Norwegians and Danes are in a union.  

The strongest nation-state is Denmark. 

Sweden is close but will not develop it until the 1600s.  

Norway is still tribal as is Iceland and Finland

Switzerland is still part of the Holy Roman Empire and has no sense of a nation-state but is a loose confederation that have nothing in common except that they band together against common enemies.  This will remain the state of Switzerland until Napoleon conquers Switzerland and creates the Helvetic Confederation (and then adds it to France!).  Post Napoleon, there is consolidation, but Switzerland still has a large civil war and only gets some semblance of a nation state in the late 1800s

Italy

7.3

No sense of nation-state, but strong city-states.  This is the most advanced “nation” in Western Europe, with an advanced financial system, manufacturing, strong in agriculture etc.  Only it does not have a central government, which puts it in a bad position compared to France and Spain who interfere in the city-states.

Italy is not united until Garibaldi in the late 1800s.

Spain/Portugal

7

Strong nation-states formed in opposition to the Moors.  Not very advanced economically as this is still very agricultural.  However, it is tied to the economically stronger Arab world and with the discovery of gold in the Americas, it will be the most powerful state for the 1500s -1680s until the rise of Louis XIV France

Greece/Balkans

4.5

Under Ottoman rule, strong sense of nation-state, but no self-rule.  

Highly advanced economies in Greece and Anatolia, arguably most advanced in all of Europe.  

Romania, Albania, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Bulgaria arespan> devastated by the Ottomans with many fleeing to the mountains.  Agriculture, culture etc. severely decline.

They are hit on two sides – by the Turks militarily and, because the Turks have a “millet” system where people of one religion are grouped together and the millet for all of these is Orthodoxy, the Bulgarians, Romanians etc. are kept under Greek Phanariotes.  Hence their culture declines while Greek culture thrives.

Russia

6

Still expanding south and east, conquering the Emirates of Kazan etc. This is still a barbaric state and remains so until Peter the Great.  It has a sense of purpose, but it’s purpose is Christianity as they believe they are the last Christian state and have a holy duty to push back the Moslems.  Economic and scientific development is poor as the focus is on war and agriculture – life is too hard and land too vast to develop like Western Europe.

Poland/Lithuania

2

Consolidating nation-state, however, more based on a confederacy as there are 4 nations here: Poles, Lithuanians, Ruthenians (Ukrainians, Belarusians) and Jews.  This mixed with 4 different religions (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Judaism and Islam (Lipka Tartars)) means a very tolerant state – tolerance levels of these are not reached by Western Europe until the late Victorian era.

Hungary

1.5

Strong nation state of the Magyars in Magyaristan (we English speakers give them an exonym of Hungary while they call themselves Magyar).  However, the Magyars (descendents of Finno-Ugaric warriors) are mostly ruling class and warriors, they import Saxons as merchants.  The native Romanians, Slovaks, etc are kept as serfs.  The state is one of war

Bohemia

1

Strong nation-state but at war with the Holy Roman Empire and Poland has given it a sense of insecurity.  It will eventually be absorbed by Austria-hungary.



The net effect is that before the reformation you essentially have only 5 viable "nation"-states. In orders of strenght of national identity:
  1. England
  2. Denmark
  3. France
  4. Spain
  5. Portugal
The financial positions of these countries do NOT change as part of the reformation. They remain more or less the same until the mid-1700s. In fact, the economic position of Germany declines due to the 30 years war and even worse, the Peace of Westphalia

1683, Battle of Vienna and 1701-1714 there is the War of Spanish succession -- THAT changes everything in Europe.. At the end of this, Spain and Portugal are in decline, France is the most powerful state and will remain so until 1812. the Ottoman Turks are in precipituous decline, Russia is expanding south and east rapidly and modernizing fast from an Asian monarchy to a more European-style feudal state. Germany gets consolidated into 4 majory states: Austria, Bavaria, Brandenburg-Prussia and Hesse-Hanover. The Swedes are now extremely powerful and in 50 years invade Poland and Russia (the Deluge) -- this destroys the commonwealth and even though it reforms it is never the same under the Swedish Vasa kings of Poland nor the Saxon kings of Poland. THe commonwealth is irrevocably headed for 1791 when Poland is carved up by Prussia, Russia and Austria.

======================================================================================================================================================

Next, urbanization in Europe in 1800

As you can see, the heaviest urbanization has been in the triangle formed by London, Paris and Amsterdam

======================================================================================================================================================

Scientific innovation --> I couldn't find an online map for this, but there are books available and there should be something online. however, I need to figure out the right google-words!

Anyway, scientific innovations leading the industrial revolution are exclusively found in these 2 countries:
    England (right from the north to the south)
  1. France (mostly in the north)
England is Anglican, France is Catholic. Germany is Lutheran and Catholic (60-40) and the Dutch republic is reformed. The latter two have their scientific developments but in sheer quantity they lag behind England and France. Scandanavia is Lutheran and has fewer scientific developments and mostly in Sweden or Denmark i.e. in the populated states). Eastern Europe and southern Europe are in the throes of war or recovering from their declines as powerful entites, so the developments are least over here.

So, the scientific developments are not exclusively any type of Protestant -- if anything, the industrial revolution is led by High-Church Anglican Britain and Catholic France.

======================================================================================================================================================
But does religion have a role to play in this?
======================================================================================================================================================

I would argue yes in the case of Anglicanism -- it is far less rigid in it's structure than either the CAtholic countries OR the Lutheran/Reformed state countries. While all the countries had state religions, Anglicanism was the most "flexible" -- you had near Catholics in the High-Church Anglicans and reformed in the "Low Church Anglicans", so religion did play a factor because Anglicanism was flexible compared to Catholicism, Calvinism or Lutheranism -- but what were the other factors?

The other factors are:
Which brings me to the second fact -- war and peace. England and France mostly fight on the periphery or on overseas territories. They are not fighting like Spain or Eastern Europe or Germany on their homelands. This means that the home populations have the peace to focus on science and economy.

Finally, the last factor -- success breeds success. By the Victorian era, the momentum of scientific discovery in England and France meant that smart people were encouraged to come to these countries as they knew they'd get opportunities. It's the same reason why silicon valley is the centre of IT research -- as we reach a critical mass of smart folks, this mass expands itself, absorbing smart people from elsewhere --> on a side note, check how many American nobel laureates were born outside the US and see how the key factor affecting our scientific growth is that we no longer have the super-critical mass of smart folks we once had
40 posted on 08/22/2011 7:28:16 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cincinna
As I said cincinna, this was a historical article, not a religious one so please do not make it one

Historically speaking the Huguenots DID slap the hand of the government that had tolerated it, just as the Moslems do in France today

Historically speaking they did the attack the majority first and destroy Churches -- the first salvo so to speak

Historically speaking they did collaborate with the enemies of the nation and foment civil war

Do read up on the history of this time in France and the civil war that this caused. The Huguenots were one side of the civil war -- even worse, they collaborated with the ancienne enemy (England). They were hence traitors to the nation as well as fomenters of civil war.

They lost and got massacred, that's what happened in all times right up to the present.

This was a socio-political conflict with a religious dimension and this article specifically talks about the historical aspect (it IS from the History channel), so do look at this aspect.

you are making it about religion TODAY when I also CLEARLY stated in my post number 30

the various actions of those H's have no influence on the descendents of these folks -- just as no doubt most of us have the blood of various conquerors, defeated, tyrants, saints, sinners etc.

Thirdly, the actions of the H descendants in Prussia have no relation to the morality of descendants in America today -- these were 5th/6th or more distant cousins 4 - 5 times removed.

41 posted on 08/22/2011 7:28:38 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

No thanks. I despise people trashing other’s religious beliefs.


42 posted on 08/22/2011 7:31:52 PM PDT by Cincinna ( *** NOBAMA 2012 ***)
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To: Cincinna

where exactly in this thread have I thrashed your or anyone else’s “religious beliefs” — please point out where


43 posted on 08/22/2011 7:41:46 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cincinna
where exactly in this thread have I thrashed your or anyone else's "religious beliefs" -- please point out where

In post 37 you said that "it's that darned ... work ethic"

Now, in post 39 I proved that the entire "work ethic" attributed to one religious group is a myth.

Go and check out or compare Holland to Belgian Flanders -- both are essentially the same people and speak the same language, yet the Flemish are Catholic and in fact had and has more of this "work ethic" than the Dutch -- so perhaps this is actually a "Germanic work ethic thing"?

Even in Germany, the economically advanced German Rhineland is more Catholic than non-Catholic -- doesn't that prove that your statement about some supposed religious based work ethic is a myth?

44 posted on 08/22/2011 7:45:14 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cincinna
where exactly in this thread have I thrashed your or anyone else's "religious beliefs" -- please point out where

In post 37 you said that "it's that darned ... work ethic"

Now, in post 39 I proved that the entire "work ethic" attributed to one religious group is a myth.

how exactly is this "thrashing other people's religious beliefs"? Are you saying that your statement about this myth of a religious group's work ethic is a "religious belief"?

45 posted on 08/22/2011 7:46:18 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos
"Fourth step, they collaborated with the enemy of the state (a competing power)>"

Not just one competing power (the English) but with the Ottoman Turks as well. They apparently found the Muslims preferable bed partners to the Catholic Christians.

46 posted on 08/22/2011 9:30:12 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Natural Law; Cincinna
True. After all the Turks did talk of an alliance against the common enemy -- the last bulwark of Christianity

French Huguenots were in contact with the Moriscos in plans against Spain in the 1570s with plans for the Moslem-Huguenot alliance to undo the Reconquista and return Spain to Moslem rule

Strangely enough the same was repeated in Eastern Europe where the calvinists of Hungary actually fought on the side of the Turks at the Seige of Vienna in 1683.

Can you imagine that? if the Turks had won, then Western Europe would have been way open to them. Instead, thank God they were defeated by Catholic Austria with Poland. This started the Ottoman decline

47 posted on 08/22/2011 11:09:19 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: daniel1212
The fact is by not allowing such things as any sanctioned prayer by teachers...

Given today's crop of "educators", it wouldn't be prayers the children would hear, it would be incantations, enchantments and spells.

Many evangelicals like to say that all Hell broke loose following the abolition of public prayers in the class rooms in the early 1960s, I submit that it was the removal of McGuffey Readers from the classroom.

48 posted on 08/23/2011 4:43:59 AM PDT by The Theophilus (Obama's Key to win 2012: Ban Haloperidol)
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To: Alex Murphy; Dutchboy88
Hey, we have (some) Catholics right here on FR who have called for a new Inquisition, and called for the destruction of our Constitutional Republic so as to replace it with a Catholic Monarchy. And they do so while claiming to be "conservatives" and that Protestants are the real "liberals".

FWIW, I recall a thread a couple years ago about Evangelical Christians being persecuted in Russia and EO posters were adamant in their defense of state controlled churches and argued since these Evangelical Christians weren't licensed they should be stopped from preaching The Gospel. Nothing has changed except the faces and technology.

49 posted on 08/23/2011 6:23:33 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: HarleyD

Makes me wonder what happens when the French get truly fed up with their Muslim immigrants.


50 posted on 08/23/2011 6:31:53 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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