Skip to comments.Navy chaplains' discrimination claim buttressed by statistical analysis
Posted on 08/24/2011 4:27:20 PM PDT by wmfights
WASHINGTON (BP) -- The attorney for 65 chaplains -- including 16 Southern Baptists -- who claim the U.S. Navy discriminates against evangelicals believes a new statistical analysis buttresses their legal efforts, which have been in court for 12 years.
Virginia attorney Arthur Schulcz says the statistical analysis shows that past promotion boards awarded favorable treatment to members from the Naval chief of chaplains' denomination, regardless of who holds the office.
His clients are objecting to the chief of chaplains or his deputy sitting as president of Chaplain Corps promotion boards, which select candidates for lieutenant commander, commander, captain and rear admiral.
"When you have 48 people who share the [chief's] denomination and 40 get promoted
that's evidence," said Schulcz, who has filed a motion for a temporary injunction to halt the next promotion board hearings.
(Excerpt) Read more at bpnews.net ...
Maybe the more conservative denominations don't do as well because they are more vocal in preaching The Gospel.
Preaching the Good News.
You are correct.
Christian Evangelicals—particularly those who believe in:
1. this era as the END TIMES;
2. BIBLICAL PROPHECY having specific tangible implications for our era;
3. The literal THE RAPTURE and THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST as real and distinct events on the not distant horizon;
4. The fallen angels playing a part in THE BIBLICALLY WARNED ABOUT “GREAT DECEPTION” . . . (THE GREAT DECEPTION which the MSM is trying hard to facilitate and deceptively strengthen—too often with supposedly Christian conservative help);
5. IN MODERN DAY MIRACLES OF GOD
6. in valid Holy Spirit fostered dreams, visions and prophecies for our time in specific terms;
7. The Resurrection;
8. Literal weighted Biblical interpretation;
9. . . .
. . . . are to be considered terrorists instead of candidates for promostion . . . according to the Marxist globalist oligarchy so increasingly in !!!CONTROL!!! As Scripture warns us about.
Great point. I hadn't even thought about how this could play a role. I think there is a distinctive between the more liberal denominations and the more conservative denominations in matters of eschatology.
There is no doubt in my mind that chaplain promotion boards are slanted.
They admit it. In the instructions to the board, they tell them things that they are permitted to consider beyond simple fitness. My memory says those things can include: gender, ethnicity, high need denomination or religious practice.
Correct me, litekeeper, if my memory is faulty.
The most common denomination is Catholic. The ratio of Catholic chaplains to Catholic troops is much worse (far lower) than the ratio of Southern Baptist chaplains to Southern Baptist troops.
How should the US military chaplaincy deal with that imbalance? On the battlefield when a Catholic troop is dying or is in need of communion, if you were that troop’s parent, who would you want ministering to him, if at all possible? Same situation, use Southern Baptist; and etc.
It’s official policy in China.
The State church is patterned after the liberal denominations.
Pentecostal etc. groups are censored, punished, leaders imprisoned etc . . . depending on political winds in the local area and latest edicts from Beijing and distance from Beijing.
Satan has always had a mild and supportive response to
“Christianity” neutered of Holy Spirit’s power and demonstrations.
Thanks for the ping!
I don’t know what the balance should be among Chaplains, but I have never felt more comfortable among religious leaders as I did with Chaplains.
As a simple soldier, I always felt that a Rabbi, Priest, Or Preacher would bond with me if I needed counseling, last minute baptism, or a few last words close to my death, I love Chaplains and I think/feel/hope, that God grants us simple folk and soldiers in distant lands, something based on intent.
Plus the more “conservative” denominational chaplains are not going to be any help to the Armed Services’ promotion of the sodomite agenda.
The State church is patterned after the liberal denominations.
True, and add that, should one TSPM (government) church "preacher" slip through their training system still believing in the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and try to preach this from a TSPM pulpit, the authorities will clamp down on him/her as if he/she had directly attacked the Chinese Communist Party.
Communists cannot tolerate any doctrine that teaches, directly or indirectly, the legitimacy and authority of any opposing government, including our Lord's coming Kingdom on Earth.
Of course, they kind of confuse the reign of Antichrist, which is democratically elected; the man of sin, son of perdition will come in through either (UNO) international election, or by international capitulation and consensus, and will be exalted by man, as was King Saul.
In preaching on the Second Coming of Christ, biblically, the short, temporary reign of the son of perdition would be introduced into the topic. The Chinese Communists are actually quite aware of this, and this doctrine is specifically attacked in the "Bible" colleges and seminaries in China. Imagine that, after all, the Chinese Communist Party losing power in China for the Beast of the Apocalypse ?!
The Son of Man, the King of Israel, Jesus Christ, will not come to power by democratic election nor consensus, but by direct violent intervention and conquest, by the Sword that proceeds out of His mouth, and His armies from Heaven; He will put down all rule and authority.
It is easy to see, then, why this kind of preaching is banned in the TSPM churches.
And, by the way, it is only a matter of time (short time) before the IRS begins a direct attack upon 501(c)(3) churches that emphasize Millennarian doctrine.
Interesting how that "the powers that be" understand that Millennarian (especially Pre-Millennarian) doctrine tends to produce resistance to socialism and totalitarianism, ideologies which have advanced more effectively in the United States since Ronald Reagan's "Tear Down That Wall" speech than ever before.
As a retired Army chaplain, there are some facts that must be considered by those not part of the chaplain system. These facts are generally not known, and they must be known to make a fair decision.
1. The chaplaincy is grouped into some basic faith groups: Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, and now Muslim. There is a minor grouping, sometimes, for Anglican (Episcopal), Orthodox, Mormon, and Other non-Christian religions.
2. A chaplain must serve all denominations/faith groups in his/her military unit when it comes to what we call “general religious support.” This would be ensuring that, for example, a Jewish soldier has access to kosher rations, and other such things.
3. A chaplain serves only his “broader” denomination (see opening paragraph) when it comes “direct support.” Direct support is performing direct religious ministry such as baptism, communion, etc. A Methodist chaplain, for example, cannot perform communion for a Catholic soldier. A Catholic chaplain cannot conduct Passover for Jewish soldiers. Direct support ministry must be performed by a member of that soldier’s denomination/faith group. This makes sense.
4. Most installations have one or more of what is known as a “General Protestant” worship service. These services include a variety of “protestant” denominations gathered in one place for worship.
5. When in the field deployed, the chaplain will conduct services and will have soldiers of a huge variety of denominations gather around him to have a brief time of worship. This is a general setting.
The problem with those facts above is that one of the groupings is called “Protestant.” There is, in reality, no such thing as a denomination called “Protestant.” You have 2 entirely different creatures when you have a baptist and a methodist. (Or any other “protestant” denomination.)
Therefore, when a “Protestant” chaplain agrees to be the preacher at a “General Protestant” service, he/she is agreeing to honor the differences of the various “protestant” denominations in that particular congregation. In such a case, a chaplain would be out of line, given the situation, to attack Calvinism, Pentecostalism, Immersionism, or any other doctrinal distinctive of denominations not his own.
Likewise, it would be out-of-line for a chaplain to intentionally promote in his preaching a doctrinal distinctive unique to his own denomination. (Amillennialism versus premillennialism, for example)
If a chaplain does NOT wish to abide by such a restriction, there is no rule and no harm in saying that he/she does NOT want to lead a “General Protestant” congregation. He/she is generally free to participate or start a denominationally specific worship service. This, of course, would depend on the deployment schedule of his unit. A chaplain with the 82d Airborne who is gone a lot might not want to start a service and then be absent on deployment for a large portion of the time.
In the field deployed, however, a chaplain is operating in a “general” environment. He/she has agreed to this by virtue of even accepting a position as a military chaplain. There is an expectation, and a fair one, that a chaplain in such a setting NOT undermine other protestant denominations. At the same time, there’s a recognition that what is going to come out of a man is what’s inside him and a lot of that is unconsciously denominationally specific. The point is that one should not intentionally be trying to attack or undermine other “protestant” denominations.
If in my preaching, for example, I am assuming “once saved always saved”, as I speak on a Christian’s relationship with God, then that is fine. On the other hand, if I intentionally preach OSAS as the truth and the only truth other positions be damned, then I’ve overstepped.
Like it or not, there are some fair limitations one imposes on oneself when entering the military chaplaincy. We treat other protestant soldiers as we would want another chaplain to be treating soldiers of our own denomination. I don’t want them undermined in the doctrine. Therefore, I shouldn’t be undermining other soldiers.
And, that is one reason that the literal interpretation of Biblical END TIMES prophecies as fitting no other era but this one is so offensive to the theologically, spiritually infected-by-the-evil-one preterist, am-mil, post-mil etc. perspectives. There is no room in the universe for anything but the evil one's perspective, in his view.
Thankfully, GOD ALMIGHTY HAS THE POWER AND THE WILL TO INSURE THAT HIS PERSPECTIVE IS THE ONLY ONE STANDING AFTER ARMAGEDDON!
Certainly Dispensationalist congregations and denominations have infections from the evil one, too. Thankfully, most of the time, in most such congregations, such infections are not quite as wholesale and pervasively deadly as the denial of such Biblical prophetic truths turns out to be in the frozen chosen denominations.
And, while my bird of rare plumage personality and style trigger plenty . . . this fierce set of convictions that comprise my perspective are also a good chunk of the source of the hostility I generate.
Certain personalities and perspectives CANNOT AND WILL NOT tolerate even the idea THAT THERE REALLY IS A GOD ABOUT TO SET A BIG FOOT VERY DRAMATICALLY ON THIS PLANET AGAIN and mess up their rebellious, willful, pretend-independent perspectives and behaviors.
AND, they are more likely than others to discern and protest, however possible, the merciless
of our best and brightest
as Marxist globalist fodder for questioinable to trumped-up to evil ends all manipulating the Nation and planet toward the satanic global government.
Gotta have compliant officer stooges ushering our best to early deaths.
God bless our troops and the truly Christian and Jewish Chaplains. May they all walk ever closer TO HIM REGARDLESS of the reasons they are in their roles, positions and geographies.
Thanks for the insight! Very interesting. I always wondered how that was handled.
Of course all that’s pretty reasonable and practical.
It’s the unfitting, unfair, unnecessary behind the scenes political censure of folks on the other side of one’s perspective that stinks.
Yes, to the extent that a chaplain is selected for promotion by backroom agreements rather than by being the most fit, that is evidence of corruption.
As I mentioned earlier, though, there are some needs of the chaplaincy in terms of having a broad variety of chaplains that will have them elevate a fully qualified chaplain above another equally qualified chaplain of a different group.
If you need roughly 180 Southern Baptist chaplains out of 1200 because the US population is roughly 15% Southern Baptist, and you currently have 360 Southern Baptists on active duty, then the only way for that Southern Baptist is to be “best qualified” rather than just being “fully qualified.”
It’s a tough thing to try to be somewhat proportional in one’s hiring and promoting, but the needs of the soldiers must outweigh everything else.
While I am here the local and Nat'l news is covering this hurricane. I truly believe it will hit the east coast hard. Especially Long Island N Y. This is where I am now.
The forced law by the politicians for same sex marriage( a citizen vote would say no) with the earthquake recently makes me believe alot of damage. I believe the evil momentum before Christ's return like it reads will get even more intense. This is what is happening all over the globe. The brash audacity of these scoffers are growing.
I do not know what you read but if you check out Christian Post website the ant- Christians have taken over the comment pages at times. It is getting intense against Chritians.
"Detailed analysis of the Chaplain Corps' management shows the faith group clusters (FGC) system hides the Navy's denominational preferences and prejudice," the motion said. "Theologically more conservative denominations have been treated prejudicially when compared with those of more liberal beliefs within the FGCs."
As an example, it cites Romans Catholics receiving promotions more than 93 percent of the time from 1985-2000. Members of three other liturgical groups earned promotions 81 to 86 percent of the time from 1985-2000, much higher rates than Southern Baptists and other evangelicals.
Ping for later
Outstanding insights, dear brother in Christ, thank you so very much for sharing them!
However, I don’t think the “needs of the troops and sailors”
is very often a major concern of the very top
This is an incredibly interesting insight into how the Chaplain system works in the military, but I do have to ask a very serious question. The military has just been ordered to begin integrating sodomites into their ranks. This deviant sexual practice is in direct violation of Biblical standards but it has been accepted by our military and culture, so how are Chaplains expected to handle this situation?
On the religious side of their mission, a Christian chaplain is to call homosexuality what it is.
On the military side of their mission, a Christian chaplain is to deal with the homosexual as they would deal with a Muslim.
In providing general support to ANY soldier, they should not be forced to violate their Christian beliefs or any oaths of ordination.
Let’s hope the above is how all of this shakes out. If Rick Perry or Sarah Palin were to win a majority in the House and a super-majority in the Senate, I hope they would return to either DADT or the older “outright ban.”
At a minimum, they should institute a ban on ANY soldier who regularly exposes himself through his behavior to blood-borne pathogens.
What caught my eye in the article is the discrimination of chaplins from more conservative denominations in promotion.
It would seem that the denomination of the chief of chaplains is the critical factor. I wonder why we haven't had more conservative Christians as the chief of chaplains.
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren. - I Corinthians 6:1-8
Wow, I had never thought about how contaminated blood in a battlefield situation could be a concern. I looked at homosexuals as similar to having women in combat units and how it affects combat efficiency. If you consider the potential for contaminated blood it's worse. Obviously, I'm not even touching on the moral questions.
Please see #18 in which I address concerns about promotion
See #25 for concerns about serving homosexuals in the “new” military
The bottom line about promotion, Wmfights, is that in an effort to keep a balance of chaplains in the military, the military looks at both the representation of any denomination in the US and in the military and any special concerns of the chaplaincy. If Catholics have 25% and southern baptists have 9%, then ROUGHLY 25% of your chaplains should be Catholic and 9% should be Southern Baptist. In actuality, there are very few Catholic priests in the military, given the number of soldiers of the Catholic faith in the military. This is due to far fewer men in Catholicism choosing to go into the priesthood.
Therefore, the number of Catholic priests in the military should be about 300, and it is slightly less than 100. The number of Southern Baptists should be about 120 and it is 300+. Remember, the point is to accomplish the best coverage of all denominations as is humanly possible.
Within reason, these proportions should also hold across most ranks (Cpt, Maj, Ltc). When one gets to Col thru 2-Star general in the Chaplaincy, the numbers are so small, that the proportional discussion is moot. There is only one 1 star and one 2 star, and the 1 star should almost 100% of the time follow the 2 star into that 2 star position. With 100’s of denominations, it will be hard to share that around proportionally. You’d be talking in terms of hundreds of years to complete a cycle.
The same with Col (0-6) positions. There just aren’t that many to go around in a corps with a total of something like 1200 - 1300 chaplains.
I see a couple things though that get me concerned. I don't like discrimination and I don't want to see Christians from more conservative churches underrepresented in the field, or at the levels where decisions are made. One of the most common things I run into living in a very liberal city is the surprise on peoples faces when I try to explain why as a Christian I have a different view on something. It's as though they have never heard the reasons. I would hate to see the upper echelon of our military believe that the liberal views in Christianity are representative of Biblical Christianity.
Since this article is about the Navy, a Captain is an O-6. There are very few of them in the Navy. The Navy is smaller than the Army by a lot. If the army has approx 1200 to 1300 chaplains, then I’m guessing the Navy has only 700-900. I’m just guessing.
In any case, lower numbers means FEWER at a higher rank.
In the army a Captain is an O-3. In the navy it is an O-6, and that is 3 ranks higher.
If they were members of the same church I can see this application.
For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12
FWIW, Wm, the most recent chief of chaplains was Doug Carver, a southern baptist chaplain. I had the pleasure of serving with Doug at Ft Campbell, KY years ago, and he is a godly man, a wonderful chaplain, and a preacher you’d love to sit under.
Since he was in the highest ranking seat, and chaplains being promoted to higher rank were of his denomination, then rest assured that there are plenty of S. Baptists in higher ranks. And this is even more so because SBapts are represented in the military FAR BEYOND their numbers in the American population.
This is not what is being borne out statistically. Apparently the denomination of the chief of chaplains is a greater factor. As the chief of chaplains changes and is represented by someone from a different denomination that denomination then sees a higher promotion rate. During the 20 year period in question the chiefs have been from more liberal denominations.
While in theory I agree with this, as it seems to be just common sense, if we take this to it's logical conclusion then we would be forced to discharge any soldier who engages in unprotected sex and not just the sodomites, otherwise they would have a legitimate complaint about discrimination.
My personal preference in the matter would be to outlaw homosexual behavior completely on the grounds that it is a threat to the well-being of the rest of society, due not only to the increased exposure to blood-borne pathogens but also due to the detrimental effect upon the societal mores as a whole, but I don't have a say in the matter.
Yeah, I can see the ‘count it all joy’ Scripture applying regardless of how often so many of us tend to walk on by that one without a proper response.
Will have to ponder the not suing in this situation.
I wonder if the issue of authentic Believer’s would be a factor. Then there are the civil government issues.
Logically, it would be safer to err on the side of Scripture.
If they were members of the same church I can see this application.
Allow me to suggest, dear brother in Christ, that it is FAR worse for Christian chaplains of differing denominations to sue one another.
These men must rely on each other on deadly battlefields. My best friend when both Haiti and Somalia was going on was a General Baptist. He was an absolutely dear brother, and we'd do anything for each other.
It would have been an absolutely, judas-type betrayal for me to violate the trust that he and I had.
When you've got a brother's back in a battlefield scenario, denomination SHOULD be one of the least of your concerns.
If he was promoting because of their denomination I would be opposed to that. I know we don't live in a perfect world, that is to come, but I believe we should always strive for it.
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
I worked right under the watchful eye of the Chief of Chaplains for the 11th Naval District in San Diego at CREDO for 2 years in the Navy. Loved it. I was the gopher also for procurement . . . walked all the forms over to him routinely.
I’ve met many good chaplains and no few who seemed to have no idea that God even existed. It was merely a mostly cushy job for them.
I will challenge the fact that the majority were liberals from liberal denominations. Most Chiefs of Chaplains will have been Catholic, due to their greater proportion of the force.
The only denomination I would describe as a liberal denomination that is over-represented in the chaplaincy for no good reason that I can see is ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.
It is possible that the ELCA filters their candidates so well that they send forward only the smartest and most physically fit in the entire denomination. That would mean that the other prong of promotion is affected: how you get rated by your NON-RELIGIOUS, military commanders.
They rate you on work efficiency, ability, physical fitness, military knowledge, etc.
The military commander, and not a chaplain, is generally the rater and senior rater of any chaplain. If they can’t perform with distinction at the unit level, then any discussion of doctrinal distinctives is ABSOLUTELY MOOT. They would be failing at military skills in the eyes of people like Schwarzkopf, Thompson, etc. If you have bad paper in your file from your commanders, then hang it up. You are yesterday’s news.
We aren't disagreeing about the need for unity in the military especially in combat.
Let me throw it back to you a different way. If instead of the promotion being less likely for a chaplain of a different denomination than the chief's it was less likely because of the candidate's race what would your reaction be?
My point, of course, was that he was our highest ranking chaplain, and that he was an evangelical and a Southern Baptist.
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