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Raw Numerical Truth about the Episcopal Church (1/3 of all 6825 churches face inevitable closure)
Virtue Online ^ | August 23, 2011 | David W. Virtue

Posted on 08/28/2011 1:50:48 PM PDT by NYer

“[We must] talk of hard financial issues and church decline and growth, to address elephants in the room, and to speak truth to one another in love." Executive Council of the Episcopal Church

A month long investigation by Virtueonline into the numerical state of The Episcopal Church reveals that more than one third of all 6825 Episcopal parishes in the U.S. have an average Sunday attendance (ASA) of 40 or less.

VOL believes that the figure of 2.3 million Episcopalians, regularly stated by TEC leaders and officials, does not reveal the true state of church attendance. More than two-thirds of this figure have either died, left the church, or attend twice a year, along with tens of thousands still on church rolls who have never been (and should be) removed. The only true standard to gauge the Episcopal Church’s health is Average Sunday Attendance (ASA).

The study undertaken by VOL staff reveals a church in sharp decline with 2219 churches having congregations of aging parishioners in their mid 60s with little or no chance of turnaround in the foreseeable future. There are virtually no young people coming forward to fill the gap. Those being trained in TEC’s liberal seminaries will have no message that is discernibly different from the prevailing culture.

What this foreshadows is that within the next 3 to 5 years more than 2,000 churches across the country will be forced to close, merge or be sold regardless of cash reserves or endowment because there will simply not be enough people in them to keep the doors open. Hundreds of clergy will be forced into early retirement; many will have to take secondary employment in an attempt to keep the doors open to a handful of aging congregants.

C. Kirk Hadaway, a church analyst on Denominational Growth and Decline, stated, "The age structure of The Episcopal Church suggests an average of forty thousand deaths and twenty-one thousand births, or a natural decline of 19,000 members per year, a population larger than most dioceses. The advanced-and still advancing-age of our membership combined with our low birth rate means that we lose the equivalent of one diocese per year."

All the fine talk of the church being “incarnational”, actively engaged in social work, and continued pursuit of Millennium Development Goals will not stop the hemorrhaging.

The consecration of the openly homosexual Bishop of New Hampshire, V. Gene Robinson, has proven to be the single greatest cause of conflict in The Episcopal Church. That action has resulted in rapidly declining and permanently lost members and financial decline with little hope of recovery. The metaphor most often used in the report was that “we failed to acknowledge the elephant in the room," referring to what many view as the momentous decision by the 74th General Convention (2003) to consent to Robinson’s consecration.

VOL examined all 6825 parishes and their Average Sunday Attendance (ASA). Records were taken from the Episcopal Church’s own 2009 ASA Graph Charts and the total number of churches in TEC Dioceses.

Churches with an ASA of 20 or less totaled 903.
Churches with an ASA of 20 – 30 totaled 612.
Churches with an ASA of 31 - 40 ASA totaled 704
Churches with an ASA of 41 - 50 ASA totaled 552
Churches with an ASA of 51 - 100 ASA totaled 1,826
Churches with an ASA of 101- 200 ASA totaled 1,454
Churches with an ASA of 201 - 500 ASA totaled 677

Some 2378 churches with ASA between 41- 100 are also not sustainable in the long term as their congregations are aging faster than the country’s demographics. Even those 1454 parishes with ASA of 101-200 can only be sustained if a new generation of Episcopalians can be found.

Parishes with congregations between 201 and 500 must generate and pull in a new generation of Episcopalians if they are to be sustainable for the long haul, but many of these will face stiff competition from a new generation of Evangelical converts and those leaving the Episcopal Church and heading to the Anglican Church in North America, as well as AMiA and CANA, that are fast establishing new parishes in major metropolitan areas.

Regarding the age structure of The Episcopal Church, two facts emerged. First, one of the top five priorities articulated by General Convention for the 2006-2009 triennium was "youth and young adults". However, the Executive Council, in developing the draft budget for the 2009 - 2012 triennium, did not list "youth and young adults" as one of their mission priorities. Second, in the recent reorganization of The Episcopal Church Center staff in New York City, the position of Staff Officer for Youth and Young Adult Ministries was eliminated with the duties of that officer re-distributed to other ministry areas.


DIOCESAN WIDE ASA

Seven dioceses have a total ASA of less than 1,000.

They include:

Navajoland 198
Northern Michigan 624
Western Kansas 751
North Dakota 790
Eau Claire 872
San Joaquin (TEC) 948
Quincy (TEC) 967

NOTE: The Diocese of Eau Claire (872) and Fond du Lac (2266) will decide Oct. 22 whether to unite their people and form a new diocese and elect a new bishop.

Seven dioceses have an ASA of 1,000 - 1,999

They include:

Eastern Oregon 1,106
Western Massachusetts 1,206
Montana 1,626
Northwestern Pennsylvania 1,671
Idaho 1,752
Utah 1,770
Alaska 1,831

Thirteen dioceses have an ASA of between 2,000 -2,999 ASA

They include:

North Texas (TEC Ft. Worth) 2,000
Springfield 2,045
Northwest Texas 2,047
Nevada 2,116
Wyoming 2,123
South Dakota 2,179
Fond du Lac 2,266
Spokane 2,299
Northern Indiana 2,350
Pittsburgh (TEC) 2,481
Vermont 2,537
Eastern Michigan 2,709
Lexington 2,930

Eleven dioceses have an ASA of 3,000 - 3,999

They include:

Nebraska 3,033
Iowa 3,064
Easton 3,068
West Virginia 3,194
Hawaii 3,282
West Tennessee 3,439
Rochester 3,483
Western Louisiana 3,582
Kentucky 3,676
Western New York 3,849
Delaware 3,880

Thirteen dioceses have an ASA of 4,000 - 4,999

They include:

Bethlehem 4,006
New Hampshire 4,122
West Missouri 4,140
Kansas 4,198
Rio Grande 4,210
Southwestern Virginia 4,291
Indianapolis 4,305
Milwaukee 4,321
Western Michigan 4,360
Missouri 4,529
Arkansas 4,634
El Camino Real 4,627
Maine 4,737

Twenty-seven dioceses have an ASA of 5,000 -9,999

They include:

Central Pennsylvania 5,003
Central New York 5,024
Louisiana 5,217
East Tennessee 5,525
Oklahoma 5,584
Northern California 5,590
Rhode Island 5,601
Tennessee 5,788
Western North Carolina 6,471
Georgia 6,472
Mississippi 6,499
Central Gulf Coast 6,527
Albany 6,597
Oregon 6,641
East Carolina 7,079
San Diego 7,223
Michigan 7,310
Minnesota 7,782
Southern Ohio 8,088
Upper South Carolina 8,337
Ohio 8,493
California 8,792
Arizona 9,002
Newark 9,054
Florida 9,153
West Texas 9,491
Olympia 9,894

Eleven dioceses have an ASA of 10,000 -14,999

They include:

Alabama 10,326
Colorado 10,514
Southern Virginia 10,779
Maryland 11,520
Dallas 11,721
Southeast Florida 12,832
Chicago 13,270
South Carolina 13,885
Central Florida 14,059
Southwest Florida 14,271
New Jersey 14,919

Nine dioceses have an ASA of 15,000 -19,999

They include:

Washington, DC 15,072
Long Island 15,123
Pennsylvania 15,158
North Carolina 15,446
Atlanta 16,834
Connecticut 17,857
Massachusetts 18,130
New York 19,627
Los Angeles 19,815

Two dioceses have an ASA of 20,000

They are:

Virginia 24,771
Texas 27,042

CATHEDRALS

The Episcopal Church has 87 Cathedrals in 82 Dioceses.

NOTE: * denotes Second Cathedral in Dioceses

Nine Cathedrals have less than an average Sunday attendance of 100

They are:

*Nebraska: St. Mark (Pro Cathedral) in Hastings 50
Pennsylvania: Our Saviour (Philadelphia Cathedral), Philadelphia, PA 76
Massachusetts: St. Paul, Boston, MA 78
Michigan: St. Paul, Detroit, MI 78
Pittsburgh (TEC): Trinity (Joint Cathedral), Pittsburgh, PA 79
*Minnesota: St. Stephen (First Cathedral), Faribault 80
Easton MD: Trinity 91
West Kansas: Christ Salina, KS 92
Fond du Lac: St. Paul 94

66 Cathedrals have an ASA of 101-500

100+ (26)
Delaware: St. John, Wilmington, 101
Central New York: St. Paul, Syracuse, NY 105
Wyoming: St. Matthew, Laramie, WY 105
Springfield: St. Paul, Springfield, IL. 115
New Jersey: Trinity, Trenton, NJ 118
Rhode Island: St. John, Providence, RI 122
Newark: Trinity & St. Philips, Newark, NJ 123
Montana: St. Peter, Helena, MT 125
Eau Claire: Christ Church, Eau Claire, WI. 127
*Bethlehem: St. Stephen (Pro Cathedral), Wilkes Barre, PA. 129
El Camino Real: Trinity, San Jose, CA 133
Northern Indiana: St. James, South Bend, IN 135
Connecticut: Christ Church, Hartford, CT 142
Milwaukee: All Saints, Milwaukee, WI 142
Kentucky: Christ Church, Louisville, KY 145
South Carolina: St. Luke & St. Paul, Charleston, SC 155
Northwestern Pennsylvania: St. Paul, Erie, PA 162
Iowa: St. Paul, De Moines, IA 164
*Iowa: Trinity (Historic Cathedral),Davenport, IA 165
West Tennessee: St. Mary, Memphis, TN 165
Vermont: St. Paul, Burlington, VT 166
Los Angeles: St. Paul (Cathedral Center), Echo Park, CA 167
South Dakota: Calvary, Sioux Falls, SD 176
Georgia: St. Paul the Apostle (Proto Cathedral), Savannah, GA 179
Nebraska: Trinity, Omaha, NE 183
Quincy (TEC): St. Paul. Peoria, IL 181


200+ (18)

Central Pennsylvania: St. Stephen, Harrisburg, PA 200
Utah: St. Mark, Salt Lake City, UT 200
Long Island: Incarnation, Garden City, NY 201
Western New York: St. Paul, Buffalo, N.Y. 203
Kansas: Grace, Topeka, KS 204
*Los Angeles: St. John (Pro Cathedral), Los Angeles, CA 204
Virginia: Transfiguration (Cathedral Shrine), Orkney Springs, VA 213
Western Massachusetts: Christ Church, Springfield, MA 216
North Dakota: Gethsemane, Fargo, ND 220
Albany: All Saints, Albany, NY 229
Central Gulf Coast: Christ Church, Mobile, AL 233
Spokane: St. John the Evangelist, Spokane, WA 233
Southeast Florida: Trinity, Miami, FL 248
Hawaii: St. Andrew, Honolulu, HI 250
Southern Ohio: Christ Church, Cincinnati, OH 265
Maine: St. Luke, Portland, ME 274
Bethlehem: Nativity, Bethlehem, PA 279
Southwest Florida: St. Peter, Saint Petersburg, FL 288


300+ (12)

Chicago: St. James, Chicago, IL 318
Mississippi: St. Andrew, Jackson, MS 320
Louisiana: Christ Church, New Orleans, LA 334
Missouri: Christ Church, St. Louis, MO 352
Maryland: Incarnation, Baltimore 355
Oklahoma: St. Paul, Oklahoma City, OK 355
West Missouri: Grace & Hoy Trinity, Kansas City, MO 355
Western North Carolina: All Souls, Ashville, N.C. 358
Arkansas: Trinity, Little Rock, AR 370
Rio Grande: St. John, Albuquerque, NM 370
Western Louisiana: St. Mark, Shreveport, LA 370
Lexington: Christ Church, Lexington, KY 388

400+ (10)

Florida: St. John, Jacksonville, FL 400
Indiana: Christ Church, Indianapolis, IN 407
Ohio: Trinity, Cleveland, OH 407
Idaho: St. Michael, Boise, ID 414
Arizona: Trinity, Phoenix, AZ 416
East Tennessee: St. John, Knoxville, TN 424
Central Florida: St. Luke, Orlando, FL 449
Olympia: St. Mark, Seattle, WA 465
Minnesota: St. Mark, Minneapolis, MN 466
Dallas: St. Matthew, Dallas, TX 474

10 Cathedrals have an ASA of 501 - 1,000

Oregon: Trinity, Portland, OR 511
Tennessee: Christ Church, Nashville, TN 533
Northern California: Trinity, Sacramento, CA 564
San Diego: St. Paul, San Diego, CA 600
New York: St. John the Divine, New York City, NY 667
Texas: Christ Church, Houston, TX 667
Colorado: St. John, Denver, CO 708
California: Christ Church, San Francisco, CA 711
Upper South Carolina: Trinity, Columbia, SC 748
Alabama: Advent, Birmingham, AL 958

Two Cathedrals have an ASA of 1,000+

Atlanta: St. Philip, Atlanta, GA 1,046
Washington, DC: Sts. Peter & Paul (National Cathedral) 1,630

18 DIOCESES HAVE NO CATHEDRALS

They are:

Alaska
East Carolina
Eastern Michigan
East Oregon
Northern Michigan
North Carolina
Northwest Texas
San Joaquin (TEC)
Southwestern Virginia
West Texas
West Virginia
Western Michigan
Navajoland
Nevada
New Hampshire
North Texas (TEC Ft. Worth)
Rochester
Southern Virginia

There are 10 "foreign" dioceses and 2 "foreign" jurisdictions with 487 "foreign" congregations with a combined ASA of 41,826.

There are 10 TEC Foreign Dioceses

Diocese # of Churches Diocesan ASA
Columbia 27 1,364
Dominican Republic 58 3,063
Ecuador -- Central 22 1,323
Ecuador -- Litoral 26 891
Haiti 99 16,631
Honduras 140 11,467
Puerto Rico 48 2,377
Taiwan 13 869
Venezuela 22 489
Virgin Islands 14 1,943


There are two TEC Foreign Jurisdictions
Micronesia 4 parishes with 135 ASA

The Episcopal Church in Europe has 14 congregations in six countries with an ASA of 1,274

Belgium -- 1
France -- 4
Germany -- 6
Italy -- 1
Switzerland -- 1
Austria – 1


The priorities Katharine Jefferts Schori has listed are evangelism, growth and congregational development; and what she called "mission to and with the least and poorest among us" and "innovation and efficiency and best practices." She said that those priorities "reflect significant continuity with where we've been, but I think they will continue to encourage us to grow and deepen our ministry to God's creation."

The problem with this is that Jefferts Schori's understanding of mission is not The Great Commission. Evangelism is not about seeking and saving the lost. For her, there are no lost to be saved, interfaith dialogue precludes any such talk. The new fangled language of the "other", the latest in Episcopal nomenclature along with inclusivity, diversity and pluriformity, guarantees that The Episcopal Church will continue to slide inevitably towards the abyss with no eye to pity and no arm to save.

Diocesan reports for 2010 numbers are due out on Sept. 1, 2011. The numbers will be sent to Hadaway for analysis.


TOPICS: Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: abominationtogod; christian; christianity; christians; diversity; ecusa; episcopagans; episcopal; episcopalchurch; fancydressfairies; fauxchristians; gaychurch; homosexualagenda; icky; phonies; playingchurch; religiousleft; satansspawn; spewyouout; tec; whitedsepulchre; wolvesamongsheep

1 posted on 08/28/2011 1:50:52 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

For those who may be interested.


2 posted on 08/28/2011 1:52:03 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

In contrast, the non-denominational Twin Cities church I went to today has an average weekly attendance of 14,000 in 4 campuses around town. The Holy Spirit goes where He is welcomed.


3 posted on 08/28/2011 1:57:05 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

Those who defy the scriptures shall be smiten by the hand of God.


4 posted on 08/28/2011 2:02:47 PM PDT by libstripper
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To: NYer

Thank you for posting this...the Episcopal Church has been in decline since the sixties when they initiated financial support of the Black Panthers. People walked then and they continue to walk because the leadership is totally out of touch with reality. Alabama’s new immigration law passed overwhelmingly with the support of a great majority of citizens...guess what? The current Bishop, Henry Parsley, who also voted to consecrate New Hampshire’s gay Bishop, has made the church a party to a lawsuit to have the law overturned. Our most senior church leaders deny the Virgin birth, the Trinity, the Ascension, and are more interested in the cocktail parties they attend than the great commission. But fear not, as they are turning on the spit over the hottest grill in Hell, there will be a rebuilding of the church, just as a great awakening is going to bring back our constitutional government. It is imperative for Episcopalians to remain firm in principle and ready themselves for this future battle.


5 posted on 08/28/2011 2:09:02 PM PDT by dunblak
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To: NYer

Thank you for posting this...the Episcopal Church has been in decline since the sixties when they initiated financial support of the Black Panthers. People walked then and they continue to walk because the leadership is totally out of touch with reality. Alabama’s new immigration law passed overwhelmingly with the support of a great majority of citizens...guess what? The current Bishop, Henry Parsley, who also voted to consecrate New Hampshire’s gay Bishop, has made the church a party to a lawsuit to have the law overturned. Our most senior church leaders deny the Virgin birth, the Trinity, the Ascension, and are more interested in the cocktail parties they attend than the great commission. But fear not, as they are turning on the spit over the hottest grill in Hell, there will be a rebuilding of the church, just as a great awakening is going to bring back our constitutional government. It is imperative for Episcopalians to remain firm in principle and ready themselves for this future battle.


6 posted on 08/28/2011 2:09:14 PM PDT by dunblak
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To: dunblak

I guess I’m not the only one who has lost interest in The First Church of JesusChristtheCommie.


7 posted on 08/28/2011 2:13:38 PM PDT by Flintlock (Photo ID for all voters--let our dead rest in peace.)
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To: dunblak

You can change how you do church but when you change the meaning of scripture or ignore the meaning of scripture your church will die.


8 posted on 08/28/2011 2:15:47 PM PDT by wild74
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To: dunblak

You might say that the faithful didn’t leave the Episcopal Church, the Episcopal Church left them.

Too bad about all those beautiful church buildings. They’ll probably turn them into apartments, or nightclubs, or GLBT outreach centers...


9 posted on 08/28/2011 2:15:55 PM PDT by Argus
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To: dunblak

‘Our most senior church leaders deny the Virgin birth, the Trinity, the Ascension, and are more interested in the cocktail parties they attend than the great commission.’

In other words, they are no longer a church, simply a social club.


10 posted on 08/28/2011 2:16:15 PM PDT by FrogMom (There is no such thing as an honest democrat!)
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To: NYer

It seems the Episcopol church and the Republican Party both embraced Diversity over their core values, threw the doors wide open to all viewpoints and people streamed out not in.

Go figure. If you stand for nothing, you will fall for everything. At least the democrats stood for evil.


11 posted on 08/28/2011 2:23:54 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: NYer

Stunning numbers on some of these Average Sunday Ateendance numbers.....the low ones, that is.


12 posted on 08/28/2011 3:02:35 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: wild74

Yeah, but at least they have no shortage of newly ordained gay pastors. < / sarcasm >


13 posted on 08/28/2011 3:31:53 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: NYer
The episcopal "church" has only survived this far because of huge endowments from long gone benefactors. Most of them would vomit if they knew how their money gifts were being used.

Example: Dean of Episcopal Divinity School, a sexually aberrant female in a recent address: "Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done"--chanted three times trying to get the audience to join her, as if in a political torchlight rally.

14 posted on 08/28/2011 3:47:56 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: NYer

... and the gays keep all the money.


15 posted on 08/28/2011 4:03:42 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dunblak

“the Episcopal Church has been in decline since the sixties when they initiated financial support of the Black Panthers.”

WHAT????


16 posted on 08/28/2011 4:46:39 PM PDT by ViLaLuz (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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To: dunblak

They’ve been infiltrated like all other institutions. The people left instead of staying and fighting to get rid of the infiltrators.

We’re living in a post-Christian world - when did it happen...


17 posted on 08/28/2011 8:27:02 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: HushTX

it’s good that even the media does not besmirch conservative Anglicans by including them with the ECUSA.


18 posted on 08/29/2011 4:23:13 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: dunblak
Our most senior church leaders deny the Virgin birth, the Trinity, the Ascension,

I guess they also deny the Resurrection.

On what basis can one even call these leaders Christian any more?

19 posted on 08/29/2011 4:24:27 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: dunblak; Mad Dawg; BenKenobi; wagglebee
to: dumblak
cc: Mad dawg; benkenobi; wagglebee

It is imperative for Episcopalians to remain firm in principle and ready themselves for this future battle.

I used to advocate that too (note: I'm a cradle Catholic so do not know the inside-out of the ECUSA), but my FRiends who have left the ECUSA tell me it is a lost cause, too far gone to do anything but leave

How would you advise Episcopalians who stay in the ECUSA? Especially when even the basics of Christianity are now denied there?

20 posted on 08/29/2011 4:26:44 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: wild74
you cannot change how you "do church" without changing what scripture has ordained and what Christians for centuries have practised. What we in orthodoxy practise and believe is what our spritual ancestors right back to the disciples of Christ learnt, from the Master Himself.

To change this, to elevate one thing over another leads only to rack and ruin as we see in all these short-lived groups. Even the ECUSA with a history of 200 years is short-lived.

21 posted on 08/29/2011 4:28:48 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: bronxville
years ago I thought the post-Christian world was because of the torments of WWII, but then I saw that in the 50s people still intensely believed.

I see the 1960s and flower-power as being the start of this process and enhanced by the TV revolution

22 posted on 08/29/2011 4:30:59 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: NYer
Many of these dioceses with minimal, unsustainable ASAs occupy churches that are much larger than they require. It is depressing to enter each Sunday a church built to hold several hundred, that today has a few dozen at best in the pews. It also explains why it's harder to attract new, younger families. If you're a couple, with say, two kids, under 10, looking for a new church, are you realistically goign to join a parish where at best, there may be only 1 or 2 families with kids your age?

One more point. The majority of these larger, and OLDER churches, and the cathedrals, have had NO maintenance done for years, in some cases decades, because there is no money. We're talking roofs, heating and plumbing systems..these buildings can't be repaired...even if the $$ was there, which it isn't, you can't justify spending that $$ on a building that houses a few dozen each Sunday.

Virtue talks about 4000 dying, and 2000 being born each year. Those who die LEAVE immediately, and take their pledges with them. A`newborn this year won't be a FINANCIALLY viable member of the church for 2 decades..

I remember well all the talk when Vicki was ordained..how TEC would grow, and become "vibrant" attracting gays the tens of thousands.....

23 posted on 08/29/2011 4:40:18 AM PDT by ken5050 (Should Christie RUN in 2012? NO!!! But he should WALK three miles every day!)
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To: Cronos
How would you advise Episcopalians who stay in the ECUSA? Especially when even the basics of Christianity are now denied there?

I think that the events of my lifetime demonstrated conclusively the bankruptcy of the ecclesiology of the Episcopal Church (TEC). When confronted by heterodoxy of all sorts TEC just folded up. Bishop Pike was the first great clue that the system was unable to defend itself.

So my first advice would be to come all the way home to Rome. If they didn't want to do that, I'd say to besiege heaven for guidance.

There are some very fine Episcopalians, but they are clinging to an illusion. There are only thin wisps of real churchiness there anymore.

24 posted on 08/29/2011 5:44:19 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: NYer

My (catholic) bishop is closing schools and merging parishes all over the place...money is tight these days. The small inner-city parishes don’t stand a chance. Today’s immigrants just don’t seem to want to attend mass.


25 posted on 08/29/2011 9:07:00 AM PDT by Coleus
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To: Cronos

You can change how you do church, you can change the time you meet, you can wear blue jeans instead of suites, you can have two services instead of one. There is a lot of things you can do to change rituals, like believing one has to be baptised to be saved.


26 posted on 08/29/2011 9:54:00 AM PDT by wild74
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To: Cronos

“How would you advise Episcopalians who stay in the ECUSA? Especially when even the basics of Christianity are now denied there?”

This question was instrumental in my own conversion. I was a former Anglican. Baptised in their church, but left when I was young, before most of the nonsense came about.

When I was 19, I became a Christian, and joined a mennonite church. Wonderful people. I remember arguing with other Anglicans about how they should join the Catholic church, because they believed in everything the Catholic church did, but were suffering in the Anglican church.

Their retort:

“Why don’t you take your own medicine?”

And so here I am now. Would I counsel them to stay? No. Leave. Join the Catholic church and welcome home. We need all the good people out there that we can get our hands on.


27 posted on 08/29/2011 12:18:21 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: ken5050
how TEC would grow, and become "vibrant" attracting gays the tens of thousands.....

The roots probably are in that 50s distorted psychological report that said that 20% of people are gay (or something like that)when in reality the practitioners of this are just about 2% of the population at large and most are those "experimenting" (think Anne Heche)

28 posted on 08/30/2011 12:18:02 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: wild74
There is a lot of things you can do to change rituals, like believing one has to be baptised to be save

These are not rituals -- look at Christ's baptism.

This is an excellent example of people removing what has always been believed -- it ends up in Gene Robinson

To deny baptism is to deny Mk 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 16:31-33

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Titus 3:5;

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 6:1–4;

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Gal. 3:26–27;

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Eph. 5:26;
to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,

29 posted on 08/30/2011 12:22:56 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: wild74
You can change how you do church, you can change the time you meet, you can wear blue jeans instead of suites

That is hardly "changing how one does church"

Church is the Divine Liturgy, the celebration of the birth, life, teachings, sacrifice and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

30 posted on 08/30/2011 12:24:17 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: NYer

Interesting it mentions the young are not coming to fill the pews. You’d have thought the pews would become a religious haven for gays since appointing an openly gay bishop drove out so many families.


31 posted on 08/30/2011 12:29:51 AM PDT by EDINVA ( Jimmy McMillan '12: because RENT'S TOO DAMN HIGH)
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To: Cronos

Church is spreading of the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ, teaching new Christians how to live the life Christ would have them live. Ritual is not church


32 posted on 08/30/2011 3:30:34 PM PDT by wild74
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To: wild74
However, the Divine litury is NOT ritual -- Church is the community of God, worshipping him IN community as He said, following what He said

And He told us to remember His words, ponder on them, He gave us baptism, confession, eucharist as our sacraments in orthodoxy. Marriage too is a sacrament.

To call them "mere ritual" is the first step on the road for any group to become the ECUSA.

33 posted on 08/30/2011 8:46:04 PM PDT by Cronos (www.forfiter.com)
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