Monument to Babek (Irani fighter against Islam) to be erected in Baku

abc.az ^ | 7.9.2011 | abc.az

[Cronos]

President Ilham Aliyev of Azerbaijan has disposed to erect a monument to distinguished Azerbaijani commander Babek.

Under the decree the monument will be erected to educate young generation in a patriotic spirit. Executive Branch of Baku city has been charged to submit proposals on the monument erection to Azerbaijani President at a month’s notice. The Cabinet of Ministers has been charged to solve the issues following the decree.

Babek (Babak Khorramdin or Hasan on one of sources) was born in Ardebil (modern Iran) , as a leader of Khurramits (Zoroastrian sect) waged an armed struggle with Arab expansion and Islamization of Azerbaijan in 816-837. The fighting took place mainly at the territory of contemporary Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic and Iranian Azerbaijan (South Azerbaijan). He is considered national hero of Azerbaijan and Iran. Babek’s glorification in modern Azerbaijan started in 1941.An epic film " Babek" was made about him in 70s of the XX century. A monument to him has been erected in Babek city of Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic of Azerbaijan.

[Cronos]

Interesting -- Azerbaijan has a national hero who fought against the Islamization of Iran (which included Azerbaijan at that time)

[Cronos]

Babak Khorramdim lived from 795 to 838 AD

He was a freedom fighter fighting the Islamic conquerors of Iran and managed to keep them at bay for 20 odd years

[no-to-illegals]

Thank You for the ping. I wish I knew the history of the Middle East and Africa. Your pings help to teach me and I am grateful for your pings.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Thanks for the ping, Cronos!

I have to say, I'm really surprised that this monument to a guy who fought against Islam is being put up in a nation that is almost 100% Islamic.

They're not concerned about possible violence?

[Cronos]

Thanks GN -- I pinged it to you because in both Iran and Greater Iran (Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan etc), there are still faint traces of pride in their great past.

In Iran they still celebrate Nowroz (the Parsi/Zoroastrian new year) and one of their great heroes is the Zoroastrian hero Rustom

[Cronos]

There are also other cases of Moslem countries who have heroes who fought against Islam -- in particular, the Albanians have their great hero Skanderbeg

in 1409, Skanderbeg (George Kastrioti) was the Sultan Murad II of the Ottoman's hostage. Skanderbeg was one of the Sultan's great warriors. Then in 1443 he escaped, re-converted to Catholicism and declared a Holy War against the Ottoman Empire and halted them for 25 years. along with Vlad Tepeś of Wallachia, Stephen III of Moldavia and Jan Hunyadi of Hungary.

Skanderbeg is even now a symbol of Albania

[GiovannaNicoletta]

You have a great knowledge of history!

Were you a history major in college, or just a self-taught history buff?

[Cronos]

It only seems I have a great knowledge of history — I just know a few areas: mostly Assyrian, Persian, English and Roman and now I’m boning up on Polish — but I’m a blank when it comes to say Japanese or Chinese history. It’s self-taught — just a hobby of mine.

[onedoug]

´Hope it lasts....

[odds]

Thanks for the ping cronos.

For those interested:

There are 2 Azarbaijans. One is the present day Iranian province, located in Northwestern Iran (aka Southern Azarbaijan). The other is now called Republic of Azarbaijan (used to be part of the USSR) until the fall of the Soviet Union. Prior to that there used to be only one Azarbaijan, which was located in Iran. But, the Soviets partitioned it. Thereafter the Soviets wanted to take over the other one in Iran, but were eventually kicked out.

A more thorough history regarding Babak Korramdin. His ethnic origins are not clear. But, his name "Babak Khorramdin is an Iranian "Persian" name, not Turkic or Turkish.

According to Waqed (quoted in wikipedia), the oldest biographer on Babak, Babak’s father was a Persian from Madain (formerly known as Ctesiphon, former capital of Sassanian Persian Empire, 35 km south of modern Baghdad in Iraq) who left for the Azarbaijan frontier zone and settled in the village of Balalabad in the Maymad district. According to Fasih, his mother – a native of Azarbaijan – was known as Maahru; (meaning Moon-Face/Belle in Persian)

Anyway, Azarbaijan has a very long history in Iran before Turkic tribes settled in that part of Iran. Also, I had never heard of Babak being called "Hasan" (lol) - at least not in Iran. "Hasan" is an Arabic/Islamic name, completely inappropriate for Babak & related history.

Babak’s sensational and legendary campaign to defend Iran’s national identity and interest is still pursued after nearly 1200 years in Southern Azarbaijan, Kaleibar, Iran every year in Teer Maah (month of July). True Iranians visit Babak’s fortress to hail their Iranian hero, Babak, as the symbol of Iranian resistance against Tazi Arab occupiers. They read poetry including Shahnameh (the Book of Kings - Iran’s most famous epic by Ferdowsi) and play traditional Persian music. They also light up bonfires to follow traditional rituals of ancient Iran.

See more photos of Iranian 'pilgrimage' to Babak's fortress in Iran, and a youtube clip here

An image of Babak Khorramdin - "Khorramdin" means "Joyous religion i.e. Zoroastrianism

“Ghaleye Babak” meaning “Babak fortress”, located in the mountains of Qaradag, in Iran.

[aposiopetic]

Impressive

[no-to-illegals]

bkmk ... will return later in AM

[odds]

P.S. - The flag Babak is holding in the posted image is called Derafshe Kaviani. It is a very old, pre-Islamic flag of Iran. It symbolizes freedom from ancient times.

It was customary in ancient Persia that every king would add a piece of jewlery to the Derafsh. When Arab Moslems invaded Iran, the Derafsh was seized in a bloody battle fought around Nahavand (a city with the same name in today’s Hamadan province in the mid-western Iran) and taken, among many other war spoils. The Arabs burned the flag and used the valuable items.

[cookcounty]

Wow. Azerbaijan is a Muslim country.

Quite amazing.

[cookcounty]

"...in 1409, Skanderbeg (George Kastrioti) was the........"

Is that the new family that Rush keeps talking about?

[odds]

In Iran they still celebrate Nowroz (the Parsi/Zoroastrian new year)

Don't mean to overwhelm you with pings, only a bit of clarification/explanation:

Norooz is, and has always been, a National celebration in Iran, for all Iranians, regardless of ethnicity or faith. Throughout history, Iranians have continued to celebrate Norooz under Arab, Turk and Monghol occupation.

Those of the Iranian (Iranic) stock in Tajikistan, Republic of Azarbaijan, Afghanistan as well as those in Central, and South Asia, Northwestern China, the Caucasus, the Crimea, and the Balkans also celebrate NoRooz. They each have their own minor variations of related rituals, traditions, food, etc..

No-Rooz (literally meaning "New Day" in Persian language) is only a religious celebration for Zoroastrians. More so because Zoroaster's b/day is on March 26, which coincides w/ 13 day long Norooz celebrations. Though Zoroastrians also have a separate "religious" calendar. Actually, the Parsi's (Zoroastrian community in India) use yet another Zoroastrian calendar (warrants having a separate thread on this topic alone).

Iranian (Persian) national calendar (and months) is solar based, not lunar like the Islamic one. The Persian New Year (Norooz) has astronomical significance; it is not faith based. When the Sun crosses directly over the Earth’s equator, this moment is known as the vernal equinox in the Northern Hemisphere, hence the start of the Iranian New Year (Norooz).

and one of their great heroes is the Zoroastrian hero Rustom

MOST national heroes in Iran, even now, are considered as pre-Islamic.

Those who beat themselves black & blue mourning the death of their "hero" Hossein (the 3rd Shia Imam) are Not the majority in Iran. But, because they get most of the publicity by western & arab media outside Iran, we in the West think that's the majority of the Iranian population. It is very much a misleading portrayal of the majority of Iran & Iranians in Iran. More so since the Khomeinist regime took over & has tried to further Arabize & Islamize Iran.

Also, since Khomeinist regime came to power, on several occasions, over the past 32 yrs, the mullahs' regime has tried to ban Norooz & other non-Islamic (pre-Islamic) national celebrations in Iran. But, they've been unsuccessful due peoples' resistance & visible objections.

[Cronos]

Islamic country but one that has not forgotten its glorious pre-Islamic past. That is the key for turning them around

[Cronos]

Talking about reminding Moslems of their pre-Islamic past, I think it is important because Islam basically says that everything before Izlam is unworthy of remembering -- hence the destruction of not only monuments but also memories of pre-Izlamic Arabia, and we saw it in the Taliban's destructions of the giant Buddhas of Bamiyan. Those were built when AFghanistan was a centre of Buddhism which came from India under the Maurya Empire

Afghans history is of Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Manichaenism, Christianity (Church of the East) before Izlam. And the Talibs wanted to obliterate that.

The Pakistanis now like to pretend that they are not of Indian extraction but try to say they are actually Arabs (which Arabs laugh at) -- and deny their past

In Egypt, there was a chance at the end of the 19th century when Pharoanism (pride in ancient Egypt) flourished, but then it was superseded by the Moslem brotherhood and pan-Izlam. Ditto for the Amazhighen (Berbers) in North Africa

If we can get these countries to think of their times before Izlam, we have a way of breaking the grip of jhadiism

[odds]

>>>”Afghans history is of Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Manichaenism, Christianity (Church of the East) before Izlam.”<<<

You’re right. Though, I have not heard of any Afghans converting to Buddhism, Manichaenism, or Hindusim in recent years. But, heard of & personally know several of them converting to Zoroastrianism, and Christianity. Of course, they can’t make it publicly known because of apostasy laws of Islam in Afghanistan & regardless of the Taliban.

Also, ethnic “Pashtun” Afghans aside, the other ethnic groups in Afghan (such as Hazaras, Tajiks & Nuristanis), similar to Tajikistan (country despite Soviet Russian occupation), have a very close ethnic, linguistic & cultural affinity with Iran.

Dari as the other official language in Afghnistan (lingua franca), widely spoken by non-Pashtuns, is very similar to Persian (farsi) spoken in Iran. I speak, read and write Persian fluently, therefore understand most Dari (dialects) spoken in Afghanistan.

Funnily, Dari dialect spoken *only* by Zoroastrians in Iran & in India is quite different to Dari spoken in Afghanistan. My mother speak Zoroastrian Dari fluently. But even Pashto spoken by Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan belong to Indo-Iranian grp of languages.

I can see Afghanistan & Tajikistan having the *potential* to revert to Zoroastrianism, or generally move away from Islam. But, don’t see that happening in Pakistan or Egypt. They are too far gone.

Actually, Pakistanis wanted to separate from India, which they did in late 1940s IIRC, because they wanted to establish an Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Culturally, the average Pakistani is way too Islamized/Arabized & has not retained much of its pre-Islamic past at all.

[Cronos]

I meant their historical religions. Manichaenism is a dead religion and Buddhism doesn’t have any preachers there, ditto for Hinduism I think.

[odds]

I understood. Was, also, taking a futuristic view & referring to your conclusion in post #18: “If we can get these countries to think of their times before Izlam, we have a way of breaking the grip of jhadiism”.

>>>”I meant their historical religions. Manichaenism is a dead religion and Buddhism doesn’t have any preachers there, ditto for Hinduism I think.”<<<

Right, their ‘historical religions’ are dead & no longer relevant to Pakistanis, in particular, now or in the future.

[Cronos]

The Pakis seem a lost cause — they have completed burnt their past and think they are arabs (or rather Islamic Arabs). The Afghanis and others, still have a chance.

[odds]

Yes.

[no-to-illegals]

Thanks for the history lesson odds. I will come back (later), review and do some research to achieve more understanding. The part I did not understand was pointed out, by you, of the majority of Iran's people are not Islamitized. I was under a misperception the people were. Thanking you for all the pings and helping me to attain a level above complete ignorance of Iran and Iran's history.

[no-to-illegals]

My gratitude for the ping and history lesson. I noticed at your post #17 and post #18 the key to turning the region is to remind them of their pre-Islamic past. The erection of the statue can only help (imho). Those who view (the statue) may further investigate. Am wondering if violence will be the determination of the statue's existence, as was GiovannaNicoletta question. Included in your post was this comment: I think it is important because Islam basically says that everything before Izlam is unworthy of remembering -- hence the destruction of not only monuments but also memories of pre-Izlamic Arabia (I took the afore comment was in relation to the statue erection) which led me to think you also are worried the statue may never see the light of day.

And then (a little off topic)
Due to the Pakis location in the region, how much influence do the Pakis have with Iran? The Pakis have nukes, and it is thought Iran is well on its way to nukes. Since the Pakis hold nukes and (if I understand) the people of Iran want nukes; are the Pakis influential with any peoples in the region; if they (Pakis) carry no influence in the Arab world, or Iran?

Please excuse my rambling (above) uncertain as to how to frame the question(s).

[odds]

The part I did not understand was pointed out, by you, of the majority of Iran's people are not Islamitized.

Not sure what you mean by "majority of Iran's people are not Islamitized" ? I can't find where I said that. Can you quote me?

Were you referring to my post #16? And, specifically my comment there that most Iranians don't "beat themselves black & blue for their "hero" Hossein i.e. 3rd Shia Imam."? If yes, my previous answer remains: Majority of Iranians, in or outside Iran, do not.

[no-to-illegals]

Yes, was referring to post #16 (as quoted in post #24, and my ignorance showed through once more (LOL) ... Thanks for the clarification. Thus Iran has an Islamic majority and the other Religions mentioned do not comprise a majority able to complete with the actual majority religion of Iran (Islam). Did I get it right?, and the questions regarding Pakistan do you have any insight?

[no-to-illegals]

as was quoted in #26. I was wrong about post being #24.

[odds]

Thus Iran has an Islamic majority and the other Religions mentioned do not comprise a majority able to complete with the actual majority religion of Iran (Islam). Did I get it right?

There seems to be a hang-up on majority "religion" this or that, regarding Iran. In Iran's case at least, imo, it is not about religion right now. It is about Power that the Mullahs' (Islamic) regime exercises in Iran, and wants to retain.

Even if 90% of Iranians in Iran became Christians, Zoroastrians, or Atheists, the Mullahs' regime would still be there. So long as the regime even has 10% or 5% supporters - Iranians and/or Foreigners, inside & outside Iran. That 5 or 10 percent would be sufficiently brutal, have the means & can dominate by sheer force alone. As they currently do. That's the real issue about today's Iran.

Pakistan, so far as Iranian People are concerned, imo, is irrelevant. But, the Mullahs' regime will use Pakistan too, just as any country in the world, to retain power.

Hope the above wasn't too complicated or confusing. (lol) ;-)

Perhaps more tomorrow!

[no-to-illegals]

Thanks odds. Understood fully concerning the mullahs, and agree.

Hope the above wasn't too complicated or confusing. (lol) ;-)
Yep, it has to be simple for me, for I'm simply ignorant of the region. Thanks for the plain English.

[cradle of freedom]

There is lots of history of the Middle East and Islam on the web. All you have to do is go to www.jihadwatch.com. Start reading and sampling the links on the right hand side of the page. Those links go on to other anti-jihadi pages which in turn have links to still other pages. There are hundreds of websites about Islam.

[cradle of freedom]

This is the key to breaking the hold that islam has on the minds of the people. Islam controls people in two ways; from the inside and from the outside. The inside control is over the minds, thinking and identity of the people. The outer control is through coercion and threat. Since people need to believe something inside, making them aware of their pre-islamic past would give them a strong motivation to break free. Half the battle is identity. The muslim leadership understand this as they try to wipe out anything that will remind people of who they were before the muslim invasions. They also know that they brought islam into these countries through the vilest brutality and of course, they don't want people to know what the islamist conquerors did to their ancestors.

Here is something that I have just recently discovered about the meaning of the veil. The veil is another form of terrorism and subjugation. The veil identifies women as being muslim or non-muslim, therefore muslim men know which women are safe to rape. Muslim women cannot be raped while non-muslim women can. The veil keeps muslim women from going outside of islam to date non-muslim men because a veiled woman is identified as a muslim and must not be seen with a non-muslim man. In this way the muslim seed is kept “unpolluted” by the kaffir and the muslims do not lose their women to infidel men. This keeps the muslims apart and hostile to non-muslims since inter-marriage is not allowed. Finally, since not wearing the veil identifies a woman as being “fair game” for rape, the non-muslim population is terrorized and harassed by the rape of their women which is another pressure that over time causes many people to convert to islam so that they will be safe from this abuse.

[cradle of freedom]

Hollywood should flood the world with movies about the glories of the Persian Empire. Imagine movies, tshirts, mugs, action hero toys, Persian princess dolls etc. etc. If I were a business person of Persian ancestry, I would try to promote Persian identity with novels, dolls, toys and anything else that would sell.

[cradle of freedom]

History is a great big movie that we are all in.

[cradle of freedom]

The internet and popular culture are a way of reach the inslaved people behind the iron curtain of islam. The internet and popular culture has a way of getting around borders.

[cradle of freedom]

Islam kills the mind, India is advancing far more than Pakistan because India has more freedom of thought.

[cradle of freedom]

I read an article about the religious party of Pakistan wanting to pass a law that would prohibit the printing of any pre-islamic history in their text books. The pre-islamic period is referred to as “jahiliya”—the period of ignorance. There was no need to learn anything about the pre-islamic period since it was just a time of ignorance.

[no-to-illegals]

Thanks for the information, and please ping me anytime. A bit busy for the moment but will try to go forward with the information as best as can.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Cronos.

[Cronos]

Exactly -- and it's not only Pakistan. Islam tries to say that everything before Islam was bad.

This leads to the ultimate idea of the Taliban -- namely that anything that is not the Koran is bad, hence they banned other books, any music, singing, dancing, sports etc. as deviating one's thoughts from Islam

[Cronos]

Talking about a country's past also is important as most of the Middle Eastern countries had a lot of Christian history as well

The Pakis have no influence with Iran except as a customer of their oil. AFAIK Iranis as a people distrust Pakistan and at the state level Iran sees Pakistan as a Shia persecuting state with Nuclear weapons -- Sunni nukes.

The Pakis would share their nukes with the SAudis or UAE (as the guys who give the Pakis money), but not Iran

[odds]

Yes, “Islam kills the mind”.

Regardless, most Iranians have continued to retain many aspects of their pre-Islamic culture, and their pre-Islamic social & religious traditions & customs. Even today, the average Iranian practices a blend of Zoroastrianism & Islam; although, many may not recognize that they do. — The same can not be said for most Pakis or Egyptians (my *other* point in post #19).

The “underground” education of Iranians in their (true) pre-Islamic history, over the past 32 yrs, has been ongoing inside Iran. Hope the west can be of help too.

That said, the main problem in Iran today is the Islamic Mullahs’ regime. The regime is after power & controlling the masses in Iran. Because they are in power & have the means to control the population, they are in a better position to further Islamize the Iranians in Iran. Any deviation from the Islamic norm, if found out, is very harshly punished by the regime.

The bottom line: So long as the regime remains in power, it would be very hard to change the *overall Islamic make-up* of most Iranians in Iran. The regime has to go, and western gov’ts must help to make that happen.

[odds]

I agree re the purpose of the veil.

The long black fabric, covering head to toe, which the Iranian women are forced to wear in today’s Iran is called “chador”. In Persian it literally means “tent” - the fact that the word (”tent”) is also commonly used for “the veil” in Iran is quite revealing.

[odds]

Hollywood should flood the world with movies about the glories of the Persian Empire

I agree w/ your idea, but don't have much faith in Hollywood. Hollywood is into glorifying others.. I blame it on the Persian/Iranian community in the US too. But, realistically, the *secular*, anti-mullah, Persian community abroad does not carry as much weight with Hollywood big shots, as some *others* do, particularly due to lack of sufficient funding, $$$$...

For example, Oliver Stone's movie "Alexander" had several factual errors & historical inaccuracies. Perhaps they should improve their research next time. Some argued that the movie was fiction (or was it 300 that was considered a "fantasy action film", based on a comic book?).

At any rate, "Alexander" (and the film 300, comic book or not) sent all the wrong messages to the Persians/Iranians in Iran & abroad. The fact that in the movie "Alexander", the Persian Queen (Roxana) looked like an African woman didn't help either. (nothing against Africans, just saying...)

[odds]

Islam kills the mind, India is advancing far more than Pakistan because India has more freedom of thought.

Also, India has more 'freedom of thought' because it does not have an Islamic gov't in power to control & regulate people's thinking. Additionally, India has a *secular* constitution, unlike Pakistan & Iran.

The Taliban, for instance, was/is a product of Pakistan (not Afghanistan), supported by Pakistani gov't & funded by the Saudis as well. -- previous FR comment on Afghanistan and the Taliban -- These Islamic gov'ts should not be, in any way, supported by the West. Otherwise, encouraging the People there to move away from Islam becomes impossible, or an uphill battle at best. Even those, such as Iranians & Afghans, who've so far kept much or some of their pre-Islamic identity.

[cradle of freedom]

You know, of course,that the Saudis, including some of the princes were involved in financing 9/11. Saudi Arabia is a false friend carrying out the subtle sabotage of the West while Iran does the direct in-your-face type of assault.

[odds]

Well, the Saudis are the ones with whom some have had a cozy relationship, from time immemorial...

[Cronos]

I've not seen the movie Alexander. Just wikipedia'd it -- Rosario Dawson was acting as Roxana (Roshanna). While Rosario is beautiful, the real Roxana was similar to a Tajik woman like

That was kind of silly to put an African-American instead of a Persian or even a Northern Indian. The features of Rosario, while pretty, are not that of a Sogdian princess of the 3rd century BC

[Cronos]

Saudia is a false friend. It was formed by the union between the Wahabbis and the Saudi royal family. This is why the Saudis finance Wahabbi madrassas all over the world. They have successfully radicalized much of the Sunni Islamic world in their own Saudi image.

[odds]

Not sure what the Real (Rokhsaaneh - رخسانہ) - not "Roshanna" - looked like. They also depicted Alexander ("Eskandar" in Persian language) as a bisexual in the movie; not sure about that either & I am really not interested to know. -- Anyhow, the whole thing had so many factual & historical inaccuracies that we thought it had to be a joke. Nonetheless it was entertaining. You should get the DVD, for free if you can!