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Lefebvrians say they will never accept Vatican Council [Catholic Caucus]
Vatican Insider ^ | September 6, 2011

Posted on 09/09/2011 4:27:39 PM PDT by NYer


Fellay

Before a key meeting in Rome, the leader of the traditionalists stressed that he was not prepared to make any compromises and also revealed some interesting behind the scenes happenings…

“If their aim is still to force us to accept the second Vatican Council, the discussions have been clear enough in showing that we have no intention of  doing any such thing.”

 

These were the decisive but prudent words of Bernard Fellay, who was adamant he would not agree to any compromise with the Vatican. On the 15 August, Fellay spoke openly about the talks between the Lefebvrians and the Holy See during the “summer University” of the Society of St. Pius X, fonde by Monsignor Lefebvre.

 

The transcription of the public interview with the Lefebvrian superior, held by the Society’s press agent, the abbot Alain Lorans, was published a few days ago, on the eve of the meeting in Rome between Fellay and Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which should encapsulate two years of “doctrinal talks” between Rome and the traditionalists.

 

The Lefebvrian superior’s judgement on the discussions was anything but friendly: “They are not beneficial right now because there is a clash of mentalities… In any case, we are certainly not in agreement. If there is one thing we agree on, that is that we do not agree on anything.”

 

Monsignor Fellay, one of the Society’s four bishops, ordained against Rome’s will by Monsignor Lefebvre and whose excommunication was removed by Benedict XVI in 2009, called for “extreme prudence” in terms of their relationship with the Vatican, especially in view of next week’s meeting, of which he said he did not know what to expert. 

 

The removal of Fellay’s excommunication, which also meant Monsignor Richard Williamson, an English bishop undergoing trial in Germany for denying the existence of gas chambre and the dimensions of the Holocaust, did not improve the Brotherhood’s position. The Society is not recognised by Rome and its ordinations, which have carried on over the years despite the ban imposed by bishops and the Vatican, are considered “illegal” by the Church.

 

 “If the Society of St. Pius X i sto be recognised, the Vatican Secretary of State said in December 2009, they absolutely must recognise the Council and the teachings of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI himself.” 

 

“People must not believe everything they hear,” the traditionalist superior told his followers. For example the rumours going round about Cardinal Levada making a “pro position” to the Brotherhood to allow it to entre into communion with the Holy See once again: “On what conditions?” Fellay asked himself, “the way I see it, there must be certain conditions.” 

 

He went on to say that “there are those who say that up until now, they (the Vatican, editor’s note) have always tried to shove the Council down our throats. I don’t know. All I am saying is: We are moving on. We have our principles, above all faith… Without faith God can never like you, so our decisioni s made. Faith comes first, no matter what, it even comes before recognition by the Church. We need to be strong.”

 

During the long interview, “Fellay also revealed nemerous behind the scenes facts relating to the difficult but ongoing relations between the Vatican and the Brotherhood in recent years. A figure which stood out was Colombian cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, formerly president of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, in charge of improving relations with the traditionalists. Even after his retirement, when the former Holy Office took the Commission under its wing as was requested by Benedict XVI, the cardinal seems to have stayed in close contact with Fellay, keeping him up to date with what was going on in the Vatican.

 

Fellay also explained how the arrival of Pope Ratzinger on the papal throne “set something off” in the Vatican, changing the winds in favour of the traditionalists and opening the way for their potential reintegration: “However, thinking about it and as far asthe person himself is concerned, the mood has certainly changed. Even in the Vatican, his arrival gave courage to those who, calling themselves conservatives, were forced to hide.”

 

Still, with the revocation of excommunications and the Williamson case in 2009, relations “became more tense”: in June that year, Fellay claims he tried desperately to meet with the Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, but in vain. The traditionalist superior was “diverted” to the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine for the Faith, cardinal Levada.

 

Lefebvre’s successor, underlined more than once the divisions that esiste inside the Vatican Curia and warned that any news arriving from Rome should be taken with a pinch of salt. Fellay used the example of  an Augustinian monk  who was excommunicated and espelle from Rome having “converted” to “Monsignor Lefebvre’s society.”


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: benedictxvi; catholic; fellay; lefebvre; pope; sspx; vatican; vatican2; vaticanii
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1 posted on 09/09/2011 4:27:42 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 09/09/2011 4:28:06 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

“On what conditions?” Fellay asked himself, “the way I see it, there must be certain conditions.”

Obedience, Fellay, is a virtue.

If you are willing to accept papal authority in rescinding the excommunication, than you must also accept the Councils. That’s the only way this works.


3 posted on 09/09/2011 4:32:20 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! “10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government")
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To: NYer

Stay strong with the great Tradition of the Latin Mass!


4 posted on 09/09/2011 4:34:47 PM PDT by Ken522
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To: NYer

How do we what is true and what is not in this piece? Havent we all figured out that there are people on both “sides” who want to see the division continue? Was it on SSPX website?


5 posted on 09/09/2011 5:00:01 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: NYer; narses; Pyro7480; Salvation
Since Vatican II was a pastoral council, it is not protected with infallibility. Every Catholic is free to to reject its pastoral advice (e.g., on ecumenism and social justice). Kudos to Bishop Fellay.
6 posted on 09/09/2011 5:30:00 PM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: BenKenobi

Deserves repeating:

“Obedience, Fellay, is a virtue.

If you are willing to accept papal authority in rescinding the excommunication, than you must also accept the Councils. That’s the only way this works.”

A common attribute of all the great saints was their OBEDIENCE to the Church. They obeyed and placed their TRUST in God.


9 posted on 09/10/2011 6:02:49 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: narses

You’re right, of course. All those who believe in VII teachings are in error, including the Pope Paul VI through the present Pope, who all acknowledged the validity of VII. It’s up to “traditional Catholics” like yourself to put on your papal hats and decide what is really Catholic.


10 posted on 09/10/2011 6:35:19 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: armydoc
You’re right, of course. All those who believe in VII teachings are in error, including the Pope Paul VI through the present Pope, who all acknowledged the validity of VII. It’s up to “traditional Catholics” like yourself to put on your papal hats and decide what is really Catholic.

Very good. Vatican II was not in error. The aftermath, coupled with the free love / free drug / free Marxist 1960's was. This Pope appears to be putting the screws to the USCCB and getting it back into the traces. We shall have the new/old liturgy and the eventual preponderance of TLM. God has given us better than we deserve in BXVI and we pray that his eventual successor be even more in accord with Him (although I was pulling for him, I never expected him to be so great - just imagine if our next Pope is even greater).

11 posted on 09/10/2011 8:09:20 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: narses

“How so? Holding fast to Traditional Catholicism is to be Catholic, no?”

Traditional Catholicism isn’t sedevacantist.


12 posted on 09/10/2011 11:52:00 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! “10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government")
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To: MarkBsnr

“I never expected him to be so great - just imagine if our next Pope is even greater).”

I knew that when the enemy was calling him the Panzerkardinel that we had a good one. :)

I love that knickname, I find it so fitting to him. He’s a warrior.


13 posted on 09/10/2011 11:53:47 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! “10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government")
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To: BenKenobi

“Traditional Catholicism isn’t sedevacantist.”

You are right. Neither is the SSPX.


14 posted on 09/10/2011 3:15:48 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: armydoc

Yawn. Your strawman arguments are boring.


15 posted on 09/10/2011 3:16:42 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: narses
Yawn. Your strawman arguments are boring.

I didn't realize it was my obligation to entertain you. Please accept my apology. Regarding the "strawman", I don't see it. You, pope Narses, have decided that you will determine which teachings are valid and which are not. You apparently know better than the Magisterium who formulated said teachings. Revel in your power!
16 posted on 09/10/2011 3:28:25 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: armydoc
Regarding the "strawman", I don't see it.
I understand. Blindness happens. Sad.

Here is an example for you:

You, pope Narses, have decided that you will determine which teachings are valid and which are not. You apparently know better than the Magisterium who formulated said teachings. Revel in your power!
Yawn. More boring strawmen.
17 posted on 09/10/2011 3:35:41 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: SumProVita
A common attribute of all the great saints was their OBEDIENCE to the Church. They obeyed and placed their TRUST in God.
Well, not all. St. Athanasius
In 355 a council was held at Milan, where in spite of the vigorous opposition of a handful of loyal prelates among the Western bishops, a fourth condemnation of Athanasius was announced to the world. With his friends scattered, the saintly Hosius in exile, the Pope Liberius denounced as acquiescing in Arian formularies, Athanasius could hardly hope to escape. On the night of 8 February, 356, while engaged in services in the Church of St. Thomas, a band of armed men burst in to secure his arrest (Apol. de Fuga, 24). It was the beginning of his third exile.
Far from obedient, Athanasius fled into exile, again. Obedience to the TRUTH is always essential. Obedience to men who are fallible is not. Ask St. Joan of Arc.
18 posted on 09/10/2011 3:44:47 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: NYer; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; YellowRoseofTx; ..

I am accused here of holding myself out as Pope. Sedevecantism is also being flung about. (An odd contradiction, for if I am claiming to be Pope - and I am not, how is the Chair Vacant?)

I solicit your comments, corrections and charitable admonitions here, if you are so inclined.


19 posted on 09/10/2011 3:47:55 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: narses

“pope Narses” is not a “strawman”. It is sarcasm. Perhaps my sarcasm hurt your feelings. If so, I again apologize.


20 posted on 09/10/2011 4:02:43 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: narses

The first Freepontiff, Narsius I, began his Freepapacy on 9/10/2011. Strangely enough, it was a non-FreepCatholic who first recognized him as Freepontiff.

His first action as Freepope was to declare all sedafreepanists heretics...

Freegards, thanks for all the pings on FR.


21 posted on 09/10/2011 4:04:21 PM PDT by Ransomed
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To: narses

Soon, God willing, the silly debate over Vatican II (yes, it was merely a pastoral, not a doctrinal, council) and the SSPX (they were so very right on so many things, and wrong on primarily one, i.e., consecrating four bishops instead of one in 1988) will be behind us, and then we can worry over far more important things. Like restoring Traditional Catholicism.


22 posted on 09/10/2011 4:11:27 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM ("Verbal engineering always precedes social engineering.")
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To: SumProVita
A common attribute of all the great saints was their OBEDIENCE to the Church.

"In 1960 it will become clearer"

If the great saints had been around post-1960 they might have become more discriminating as to what they obeyed and what they questioned as being the work of the devil.

23 posted on 09/10/2011 4:39:43 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: armydoc
“pope Narses” is not a “strawman”.
Really?
It is sarcasm.
Ah, sarcasm.
Perhaps my sarcasm hurt your feelings. If so, I again apologize.
No, my feelings were simple boredom. As for your apology, you say "again". Sad, I must have missed the first time you admitted error. Nonetheless, I accept your admission and apology.
24 posted on 09/10/2011 4:57:03 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Ransomed

Ah, were I a FreePope, I might become a numerologist. 9/10/11 seems a valid date to accept a Tiara. Were I so inclined.

:)


25 posted on 09/10/2011 4:58:37 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: NYer

There’s no question that Mass in Latin is beautiful, but the Church was clear that this practice must cease. I think for the good of the Church, I think the results of Vatican II must be upheld.


26 posted on 09/10/2011 5:01:01 PM PDT by Absolutely Nobama (Chairman Obama And Ron Paul Are Sure Signs The Republic Is In Serious Trouble. God Help Us All.)
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To: Absolutely Nobama
There’s no question that Mass in Latin is beautiful, but the Church was clear that this practice must cease.

Not true. You need to read up a bit on the history of the issue. Pope Benedict has declared that the Traditional Mass was never abrogated.
27 posted on 09/10/2011 5:16:08 PM PDT by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: Absolutely Nobama
"There’s no question that Mass in Latin is beautiful, but the Church was clear that this practice must cease"

?? Somehow I missed that dictum.

28 posted on 09/10/2011 5:18:06 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: Deo volente

Is there a link for this ?

I’m not being confrontational about this, I just want both sides of the issue.


29 posted on 09/10/2011 5:22:27 PM PDT by Absolutely Nobama (Chairman Obama And Ron Paul Are Sure Signs The Republic Is In Serious Trouble. God Help Us All.)
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To: Absolutely Nobama

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html


30 posted on 09/10/2011 5:37:08 PM PDT by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: Absolutely Nobama

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html


31 posted on 09/10/2011 5:38:02 PM PDT by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: sayuncledave

Doh! Sorry, I was showing screen savers to the twins and the little monkey on the other computer, accidentally posted twice.


32 posted on 09/10/2011 5:40:36 PM PDT by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; narses

“Soon, God willing, the silly debate over Vatican II and the SSPX ... will be behind us, and then we can worry over far more important things. Like restoring Traditional Catholicism”

Amen!


33 posted on 09/10/2011 6:10:27 PM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
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To: Absolutely Nobama

Here’s the thing about the latin Mass I’ve observed, and I’ve never been to one. The more a Catholic is into things like priestesses, clergy in “relationships”, abortion and gay marriage the more they seem to hate the latin Mass, and like hippy dippy side of the liturgy that has occured in recent years. The more a Catholic rejects these things, the more they seem to dig the latin Mass. Sometimes you see folks that are so into it they hate even reverent Masses in the vernacular, which seems to me to be going a little far. I’d take a good regular Mass over a latin Mass where the priest was using puppets. The thing is, any priest that would bother in the first place to say a latin Mass today isn’t going to go to the trouble just to do it irreverently. At least I haven’t heard of it happening.

Make of that what you will.

Freegards


34 posted on 09/10/2011 6:13:22 PM PDT by Ransomed
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To: Absolutely Nobama
the Church was clear that this practice must cease

Quite the contrary!!! Vatican II specifically required the retention of Latin (with small parts to be introduced in the vernacular, like the readings) as well as pride of place for Gregorian chant and the priest facing East with the people!

This is what is so frustrating/infuriating for orthodox Catholics. Post-VII Catholics have been so thoroughly propagandized by the false notions of the "spirit of VII" that they spout off nonsense like "There’s no question that Mass in Latin is beautiful, but the Church was clear that this practice must cease" without thinking twice or even realizing what a colossal falsehood it represents.

The mass as we know it since Vatican II (Novus Ordo, in the vernacular, with the priest facing the people, communion standing in the paw, hymns replacing the Gregorian chant propers, etc etc etc) was no where envisioned in the documents of VII.

35 posted on 09/10/2011 6:28:46 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM ("Verbal engineering always precedes social engineering.")
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To: sayuncledave

Thank you, I appreciate it.


36 posted on 09/10/2011 8:33:29 PM PDT by Absolutely Nobama (Chairman Obama And Ron Paul Are Sure Signs The Republic Is In Serious Trouble. God Help Us All.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Actually, I’m not Catholic. I’m Jewish, but many of my family members were Catholic, and I know more about being Catholic than I do being Jewish, in fact, I’ve been to Mass more than synogogue. (My parents were leftist Democrat Jews who were anti-Israel, so synogogue was out of the question. My grandfather was concerned for my soul, so he took me to Mass.)

In any event, upon further review, and based on the links I’ve received, I think you’re right. I stand corrected.


37 posted on 09/10/2011 8:44:20 PM PDT by Absolutely Nobama (Chairman Obama And Ron Paul Are Sure Signs The Republic Is In Serious Trouble. God Help Us All.)
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To: Absolutely Nobama

No problem. (Since this thread is labelled CATHOLIC CAUCUS, I wrongly assumed I was posting to ... a Catholic.)


38 posted on 09/10/2011 8:59:53 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM ("Verbal engineering always precedes social engineering.")
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To: Dr. Sivana

Ping


39 posted on 09/11/2011 1:14:22 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club: Burn 'em Bright!!!)
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To: narses

Then they should have no problem accepting the authority of Benedict XVI.


40 posted on 09/11/2011 1:42:26 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! “10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government")
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To: steve86

“If the great saints had been around post-1960 they might have become more discriminating as to what they obeyed and what they questioned as being the work of the devil. “

Obedience to the Church Christ founded NEVER goes out of style....no matter who is leading. Many things often happen which seem unfair. God always tests the obedience of His followers.

PS There have been great saints even after 1960.


41 posted on 09/11/2011 4:45:33 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: BenKenobi

They don’t actually. That is why they are going to Rome, again, at his summons.


42 posted on 09/11/2011 8:39:03 AM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: narses

If the Lefebrerists refuse to recognize the ecumenical authority of Vatican II, and having been brought before the Church for repentance and having refused, let them be to us as a publican. Heck, publicans will preceed them in the Kingdom of Heaven.

We did what we could. If in their obstinacy they choose to resist grace, so be it.

-Theo


43 posted on 09/11/2011 9:54:51 AM PDT by Tefilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Teófilo

Are you babbling ext Cathedra or is that just your odd opinion?


44 posted on 09/11/2011 10:08:23 AM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Teófilo

Are you babbling ex Cathedra or is that just your odd opinion?


45 posted on 09/11/2011 10:08:35 AM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Teófilo

Why stop with the “Lefebrerists”. There aren’t more than a very few parishes in my diocese which follow the actual teachings of Vatican II. I see the same thing going on in other dioceses.
So does darn near the whole Church get ranked below the “publicans” or is some authority rejection better than others?


46 posted on 09/11/2011 10:22:28 AM PDT by rogator
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To: Teófilo

Why stop with the “Lefebrerists”. There aren’t more than a very few parishes in my diocese which follow the actual teachings of Vatican II. I see the same thing going on in other dioceses.
So does darn near the whole Church get ranked below the “publicans” or is some authority rejection better than others?


47 posted on 09/11/2011 10:22:39 AM PDT by rogator
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To: narses

I never babble. I pontificate.

-Theo


48 posted on 09/11/2011 9:14:47 PM PDT by Tefilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: rogator

The wheat and the tares will grow together until the end of time.

Besides, although all the tares think they know better than the Successor of Peter, one way or the other. Some simply ignore him, whil others presume to dictate terms to him.

At times it is difficult to me to determine which one is more vile.

-Theo


49 posted on 09/11/2011 9:17:43 PM PDT by Tefilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: armydoc; Dajjal; narses

Yep, next step Dajjal is to accept abortion, gay marriage, etc. — something that won’t happen to the Church


50 posted on 09/13/2011 3:12:20 AM PDT by Cronos (www.forfiter.com)
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