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Is the old Jerusalem not the new Jerusalem?

Posted on 09/15/2011 1:04:26 PM PDT by Ancient Drive

*puts on tin foil hat*

Historic Jerusalem is not Prophetic Jerusalem "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem" (Isaiah 2:3). Jerusalem, Jerusalem. There is probably more confused preaching in recent years on "Jerusalem" than on any other name from Scripture except perhaps "Jew." Scripture, such as that quoted above, is used by a great many Christian ministers to mean the literal city of Jerusalem in old Palestine. They say that there God is going to restore His Israel people and begin to set up His earthly kingdom from which Jewish missionaries will go out to preach the gospel all over the world! Other ministers claim this Jerusalem is a "heavenly" city located somewhere other than on the earth. One of the major sources of confusion in today's preaching comes from ministers who are unable to separate historic Biblical cities from prophetic cities of the Bible. They do fairly well on Babylon, since the actual city has been destroyed and exits no more in the earth. So when "Babylon" is used in prophecy, they realize it must be something other than the old city. But with Jerusalem they are fooled. Because the old city still exists and still carries its ancient name, they assume prophetic Jerusalem must have something to do with the old city of Jerusalem. It was Voltaire who is credited with saying, "If you would speak with me, define your terms." He realized that words must have an understandable meaning to both parties to a conversation, or one would be confused or deceived. And so it is with "Jerusalem." I want you to follow me in the Scriptures to find God's true meaning of Jerusalem, when He says, "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem." In Matthew 23:37-39 we read the words of Jesus Christ: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, blessed is he that cometh in the Name of the Lord." Here Christ was speaking to the city of Jerusalem that He was standing and looking at Jerusalem, the city that had killed Israel's prophets down through the centuries; and He said, Jerusalem, "your house is left unto you desolate." He could not have been speaking of prophetic Jerusalem, for that has a glorious future!

The Lord Shall Yet Choose Jerusalem I will quote some Scripture verses used by those who insist that the old city of Jerusalem will be the Jerusalem that will be "chosen" and "blessed" of God. They are in the first chapter of Zechariah. "I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with great jealousy … I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: My house shall be built in it … and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem." These are phrases from verses 14 through 17, and those who quote them say they mean that God will set up the temple (His house) at some future time in the old city of Jerusalem. But there are other phrases in the same verses which must be considered. I will add them here in their context. "Thus saith the Lord of Hosts; My cities through prosperity [good] shall yet be spread abroad." Then comes "and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem." Since the phrase, "spread abroad," was spoken through Zechariah while he was in old Palestine, it could mean places other than old Palestine! Christ also gave some indication that the cities of Israel would be in great number and cover much territory. In Matthew 10 are His well known instructions to the twelve disciples. In verse 6, He tells them to "go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," and then in verse 23 He says, "For verily I say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." The disciples could have gone over the towns in old Palestine in a matter of weeks, and missionaries still could do so today. But if the cities of Israel were to be "spread abroad" and to be a great number, it could not be done so quickly. We must also take into consideration that Zechariah, as a prophet to Israel, spoke not only to those in the Babylonian captivity, but to the millions of Israelites who were at that time in the Assyrian lands and never returned to Jerusalem or Palestine. That Zechariah's prophecy above was not fulfilled by the return of less than 45,000 Jews from Babylon under Ezra and Nehemiah will be clear as we go on. Also, what the "Jerusalem" is that the Lord "shall yet choose" is made clearer by reading on in the next verses from the same prophet.

An Angel Will Measure New Jerusalem Read on in Zechariah 2:1-4, "I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said to me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof. And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him. And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein." That is quite a description. "Towns" (plural) and many men and cattle were to be in it. This is the Jerusalem of prophecy, and it is so large it took an angel to measure it! Maybe this was because it had been then "spread abroad" as was prophesied in Zechariah 1:17. In chapter 8 of Zechariah (and Zechariah has much to say about prophetic Jerusalem) we read in verse 2, "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy and I was jealous for her with great fury. Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem." So God says He will be in both Zion and Jerusalem. Zion is the seat of government; Jerusalem is the whole nation. "And Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain." (vs. 3) This is similar to what we have in Isaiah 2 and Micah 4, "the mountain of the Lord." It will help you understand prophecy, if you know that mountain usually means nation. Micah, Isaiah, Zechariah and others are actually saying that prophetic Jerusalem will be the nation of the Lord. Then in verse 7 of Zechariah 8 we read, "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold I will save My people from the east country, and from the west country; and I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness." God is saying that "My people" (Israel) will be brought to this Jerusalem by Him, and they will be His people "in truth and in righteousness." i.e. they will be Christians.

Preachers Confuse Old City with New Jerusalem Now if we take these prophecies and attempt to put them in little old Palestine, we are in trouble! It is just not big enough. As these scriptures show, the Lord will dwell there, Zion will be there, many from the east country and the west country, a multitude of men and cattle, and it will spread abroad and be so large that angels will have to measure it. I have some statistics on the Jewish occupied area of old Jerusalem and Palestine that will show it is not the size for a "multitude of people." Jerusalem, as it was set aside by the United Nations, has 289 sq. miles. It is about 20 miles long and 15 miles wide. That would be about the size of Phoenix, Arizona and its suburbs or twice the size of Baltimore. The entire country of Palestine, as established by the U.N. mandate, was 7,993 sq. miles. Since the so-called war in 1967, the area controlled has increased substantially, but even if they took control of several entire Arab countries, it would still be smaller than an average American state! That is hardly fitting for Zechariah's prophecy, is it?

Temple at Old Jerusalem to be Like Shiloh The confusion among ministers is also caused by their mistaken belief that God chose the old city of Jerusalem perpetually as the place where He would place His Name. But like Shiloh, Jehovah's presence there was conditional upon Israel obeying God. This is made very plain in Jeremiah 7 where we read, "The Word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, Stand in the gate of the Lord's house [the temple in Jerusalem], and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the Word of the Lord, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the Lord." So God gave Jeremiah a commandment to speak to all those who worshipped at the temple. Verses 3 through 10 give a promise that if they obeyed the Lord, they would then, "dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever." But then God accused them of disobeying and said, "Is this house which is called by My Name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the Lord. But go ye now unto My place which was in Shiloh, where I set My Name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of My people Israel" (verses 11-12). Then God pronounced the fate of the temple at Jerusalem, "Therefore will I do unto this house [the temple], which is called by My Name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and your fathers [Jerusalem and Judah], as I have done to Shiloh." So in order to see what God has done to Jerusalem, we must see what he did to Shiloh. Its history as the place where God had set His name at the first starts in Joshua 18:1, "And the whole congregation of the children of Israel assembled together at Shiloh, and set up the tabernacle of the congregation there." The ark of the covenant was there, and it was there that the high priests sacrificed to the God of Israel. This continued for many years for we read in Judges 18:30-31, "And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land [Philistine captivity]. And they set them up Micah's graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God [the tabernacle] was in Shiloh."

God To Forsake Shiloh Then in 1 Samuel we read the story of God's leaving Shiloh, as He was later to leave Jerusalem. This is quite lengthy and requires the reading of all Chapters 2 through 7. We will quote only a few verses because of space limitations. The story begins in 1 Samuel 2:12 with the sons of Eli, "Now the sons of Eli were the sons of Belial; they knew not the Lord." Because of their abominations and the sins of Israel, the Lord appeared to Eli and among other things told him, "Behold the days come, that I will cut off thine arm, and the arm of thy father's house, that there shall not be an old man in thine house. And thou shalt see an enemy in My habitation [the tabernacle at Shiloh]. And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them." Then God tells Eli what will replace His habitation. "And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in My mind; and I will build him a sure house…" This was a reference to Samuel.

Shiloh Forsaken God then set about to carry out this promise of punishment to Eli and removing Himself from Shiloh. In Chapter 4, the Philistines won a battle against the Israel armies, and Israel made a decision (1 Samuel 4:3). "And when the people were come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the Lord smitten us to day before the Philistines? Let us fetch the ark of the covenant of the Lord out of Shiloh unto us, that, when it cometh among us, it may save us out of the hand of our enemies." Instead of putting their trust in God, they put their trust in the physical ark. Verses 10 and 11 tell the results: "And the Philistines fought, and Israel was smitten, and they fled every man into his tent - and there was a great slaughter; for there fell of Israel thirty thousand footmen. And the ark of God was taken, and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were slain." God's promise that the enemy would be in His habitation and that the sons of Eli would both be slain in one day had come to pass. Eli died when he heard the news, and Phinehas' widow was so shocked by the events that she was immediately delivered of her child. That she recognized the terrible disaster to Israel is shown in the name she gave the baby. "And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The glory is departed from Israel: because the ark of God was taken" (verse 21). The Lord had departed from Shiloh.

Ramah - Then Jerusalem Chapter 7 shows that God then gave Samuel rule over Israel, but he did not worship at Shiloh for we read in verses 15-17, "And Samuel judged Israel all the days of his life. And he went from year to year in circuit to Bethel, and Gilgal, and Mizpeh, and judged Israel in all those places. And his return was to Ramah; for there was his house; and there he judged Israel; and there he built an altar unto the Lord." Psalm 78:59-61 verifies this forsaking of Shiloh in this manner: "When God heard this [Israel's abomination] He was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel: So that He forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent which He placed among men; and delivered His strength into captivity, and His glory into the enemy's hand." Then verses 65-72 refer to the placing of His temple in Jerusalem under David and Solomon. Most Bible students know the story, so we will not recount it here. But the Psalmist does verify that Shiloh was forsaken. So, if Jerusalem was to be "as Shiloh," and if God's Word is true, which it is, then the old city of Jerusalem is forsaken and deserted by the God of Israel forever! Old Jerusalem to be a Curse to All the Nations of the Earth But just so the same Bible students understand with perfect clarity that God has now forsaken the old city of Jerusalem and will never rebuild His temple there, turn to Jeremiah 26:1-3. Again Jeremiah is ordered by the Lord to stand in the entrance to the temple in Jerusalem and say, "Thus saith the Lord: If ye will not hearken to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened; then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth." This is a double warning to the city and a promise of what the old city of Jerusalem would be at some time in the future.

Christ Confirmed These Promises "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Romons 15:8). Now these fathers here were the people of Israel, of course. And so we find Christ confirming this end of the temple and of old Jerusalem as the place where His Name would be. We read in Jeremiah 7:11, "Is this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your eyes?" This was followed by the promise to make it as Shiloh. In Matthew 21:12, 13 we read that Christ personally entered the temple at Jerusalem, overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and said, "It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves." After spending some time teaching in the temple, he then left the temple and later pronounced on the city of Jerusalem, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matt. 23:38-39) Two verses later we read His sentence on the temple, "Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Christ never went back to the temple, it was destroyed and burned to the ground in 70 A.D. The temple became "as Shiloh," and Jerusalem as "Ichabod." The promise of God, through His prophet Jeremiah, was confirmed by Christ, and history verifies its fulfillment. Not only is the Lord's name (Christ) not there any more, but with much of the world's intrigue and tension centered in the Jewish state called "Israeli," the old city is now becoming "a curse to all the nations of the earth" as God had prophesied! Ministers who still insist the Jews will rebuild the temple (which they may) and that God will bless it (which He will not) have "seen a vain vision", and "spoken a lying Divination."

This Foolish Preaching That the Jews are Israel A great part of this absurd teaching about old Palestine is caused by the erroneous belief by ministers that the Jews are Israel and that the Jewish state of Israeli is the regathering of the tribes of Israel. I wonder how many preachers have stopped to think that there are about the same number of Jews now in old Palestine as there were Israelites in the Exodus from Egypt over 3,300 years ago (3 milleniums ago!). And if there was any one thing God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it was to multiply their seed! According to Genesis 48:4, God said to Israel, the father of the twelve men who became the twelve tribes of Israel, "Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people." And in verse 19, speaking of Ephraim, one of Joseph's sons and Israel's grandson, Israel prophesied of this one man alone that, "his seed shall become a multitude of nations." Ephriam's descendants alone were to become many nations! In Genesis 28:3 is God's prophecy to Jacob-Israel, "And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people." Moses, speaking to the two million or more Israelites in the Exodus, said to them, "The Lord God of your fathers make ye a thousand times as many as ye are and bless you as He hath promised you" (Deut. 1:11). Solomon is estimated to have had more than fifteen million Israelites in his kingdom over 2,500 years ago and yet preachers today would have us believe that less than fifteen million Jews in the world today constitute this "multiplied" seed of Israel (14,334,195 is the 1976 estimate from the Jewish Statistical Bureau, Dr. H.S. Linfield, Exec. Secretary, 1976 World Almanac, page 214). Ministers who teach that the two million or so Jews in Palestine are fulfilling Bible prophecy of the regathering of Israel are completely ignoring the promises God made to Abraham of the immense numbers of descendants who would be in that regathering. Their teaching is actually an affront to God, yet millions of church goers believe and support this foolish preaching. Jeremiah was truly right when he said of our day, "The prophets prophesy falsely …. and My people love to have it so" (Jer. 5:30-31).

Gospel to be Preached Beginning at Jerusalem After His resurrection, Christ taught the disciples, and it says in Luke 24:45, "Then opened He their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures." Solomon said, "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding" (Pr. 4:7). Since we can see how important understanding is, what was it that Christ gave the disciples to understand? In the verses after Luke 24:45 above, we read, "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem." Not ending at Jerusalem, but beginning at the city of Jerusalem, and not beginning 2000 years later when a people who call themselves "Jews" occupy the city, but beginning right then. "And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of My father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." This is verified by the account in Act 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me, both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." In Acts 2 is the great story of Pentecost, the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Israel, beginning at Jerusalem. Peter called it, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (vs 16). Then he quoted Joel 2:28, which of course was a prophecy to Israel. Feed My Sheep (The House of Israel) Let us compare Christ's instructions after His resurrection with instructions He gave His disciples during His ministry. After His baptism, Jesus instructed the twelve disciples to go "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 10:6). The word "lost" here is translated from the Greek "apollumi," which means: "apo" ("put away") and "ollumi" ("punished") .. It signifies a voluntary losing, which of course is correct, since God deliberately put Israel away into the Assyrian captivity as a punishment (see 2 Kings 18 & Hosea). "Apollumi" is used 13 times in the New Testament, and every time it is used in connection with the house of Israel. (See Strong's Concordance #622). Then after His resurrection, Christ told Simon Peter three times, "feed My lambs … feed My sheep … feed My sheep" (John 21). Now if Peter and the others were to obey Christ and feed the "sheep of the house of Israel," they would have to go to where the sheep of the house of Israel were, would they not? So, the question here is - and you cannot understand the difference between the old Jerusalem and the new Jerusalem unless you have the correct answer to this question - did the disciples obey Christ's explicit instructions to "go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" and "feed My sheep," first in Jerusalem, then in Judea, then in Samaria, and then to the uttermost parts of the earth, or did they not? I say they did!

Christian History - The Unfolding of Israel Prophecy History and scripture verify that the disciples preached the Gospel first in Jerusalem, then in Judea, then in Samaria, and then to the uttermost parts of the earth where the Israelites had gone. British, Roman and other European historical records show that some of the disciples who had known Jesus in the flesh went directly to the British Isles. Paul preached in Spain, France and England. Joseph of Arimathea established a church in England within 5 years of Jesus's death. Others who went to England were Mary Magdalene, Mary (mother of Jesus), Maximin, Trophimus, Lazarus, Simon Zelotes, Clements, Martial, Sidonius, Zacchaeus, and Mary (wife of Cleophas). Timothy, who had been ordained by Paul, baptized his own nephew, the British King Lucius, on May 28, 137 A.D. That same king then declared all England Christian in 156 A.D. at the National Council at Winchester! (For a more complete study of this fascinating subject see my "Paul and Joseph of Arimathea, Missionaries to the 'Gentiles'"). Information such as that in the above paragraph has been completely expunged from our school, church, and seminary textbooks. Christian's do not know their race's Christian history! If they did, they would begin to realize that they are Israel. Our race reacted just as Christ said His Israel sheep would. We heard His voice, and we followed Him. Our race became known as the "Christian peoples" and are now the great Christian nations of the world, including our own United States of America. We are the only race which has reacted to Christ in this manner. It was not until about 1500 A.D., after the entire White Race had had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that the Lord moved upon Israel, the Anglo-Saxon and kindred peoples, to then carry it to the heathen, as He had said they would. They obeyed.

Christ Said Jews are Not of God Ministers who preach that the Jews are God's chosen people defy the plain teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Speaking to the Jews, Christ said, "He that is of God heareth God's Words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8:47). And to make it very certain we understand the Jews are not His sheep, it is recorded in John 10:26 that He said to the Jews, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep." Then after Jesus told the Jews they were not His people, he described how His true Israel sheep would react when they heard His Word: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." What race has followed Jesus to the exclusion of all other gods? There is only one - God's true Israel, the Anglo-Saxon race. No, my friends, the disciples did not go to some heathen race. They obeyed their Master and went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The New Testament calls us "Gentiles," which means tribes or nations. We were the Gentiles among the Gentiles, the lost tribes of Israel after the dispersion.

Teaching Error is Very Serious My Christian friends, there is another serious side to this unscriptural teaching that we are not Israel. If your minister teaches that the Jews are Israel, the chosen people of God, and that the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Germanic, and other European Caucasians are not, then your minister is saying that all of the disciples disobeyed their Lord Jesus Christ and that the Gospel prospered in disobedience! That is not Scriptural. In fact, it is a very poor way to demonstrate obedience to Christ. The Samaritan Woman To continue our study on Jerusalem, turn to John 4 for a very symbolic meeting between Christ, the Redeemer of Israel, and a Samaritan woman. They met at a well, identified as "Jacob's well" in verse 6, and the woman identified herself as a descendant of Jacob in verse 12 by asking Jesus, "Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well?" "Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." She immediately answered, "Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw." This is not the response of a Jew to Christ; neither is it the response of a heathen. It is the response of an Israelite. Before we go on in John 4, I will quote what the concordance in the back of my Bible says about the Samaritans at the time of Christ: "The Samaritans were a mixed race, composed of imported colonists and the Israelites who remained when the bulk of the ten tribes were carried into captivity. They had a temple to Jehovah on Mount Gerizim, their sacred mountain, they accepted Moses as their lawgiver and the Pentateuch as their law, but they rejected the traditions and rules of the Pharisees. They observed the rite of circumcision, the requirements of the Sabbath, and refused to accept Jerusalem as the one place where the temple of Jehovah should stand." So Israelites lived in Samaria, they worshipped Jehovah, the God of Israel, but knew enough about prophecy to refuse to accept the Jewish priesthood with its traditions or worship at Jerusalem (Would to God ministers knew that much today!). This woman was an Israelite, and in this meeting she is symbolic of all Israel meeting Christ, their Messiah.

Israel the Harlot In verse 16, Jesus said to her, "Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband." Jesus said unto her, "Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou has had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband." She had no husband and she had many husbands. Who, in the Bible, had no husband, and had many husbands? Israel, of course, who left her first husband, her God, and as Scripture says, "they have gone whoring form under their God" (Hosea 4), and "thou has played the harlot with many lovers" (Jer. 3:1). Worship to Cease at Jerusalem Then she went on to ask Him to explain something. "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship (?)" He answered, "Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father." This is testimony by Christ Himself that worship of God was to cease in old Jerusalem and old Palestine! Then Jesus explained how worship would be from that time on. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." Jesus said to her that this old Jerusalem was not to be a place of worship. As we read these Scriptures and look over at old Jerusalem, we can see that that has come to pass. In fact, in the Jewish state of Israeli a person cannot even become a citizen if he is a professing Christian! It is written in their laws. It was tested by a "racial" Jew a few years ago. He went to Israeli and applied for citizenship. He proved his racial lineage, but stated he believed in Jesus Christ as the son of God. His case went through the courts, and his request for citizenship was denied. Only atheists or followers of Judaism are granted Israeli citizenship. Recently, additional laws and regulations have been passed in Israeli restricting or ending most Christian missionary work there. Jesus said worship of God would cease in old Jerusalem and in Samaria, and it has.

Jerusalem A Burdensome Stone Let's turn to Zechariah 12:1, "The burden of the Word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem." This is Jerusalem in prophecy, yet future, as we can see by the next verse. "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." God calls Jerusalem a "stone" and indicates it will destroy its enemies. In Matthew 21:43-44 Jesus Christ speaks to the chief priests and Pharisees, and He says, "therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation (yes, a nation) bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." The same terminology - the same thing is going to happen to the people who gather against prophetic Jerusalem as will happen to those who fight the nation to which Christ will give the Kingdom. And both the nation and Jerusalem are called a stone, God's Stone Kingdom! Prophetic Jerusalem is the same as the Kingdom.

People are Gathering Against New Jerusalem In Zechariah we read that "all the people of the earth be gathered against it." What are the people of the earth being gathered against? Why prophetic Jerusalem, of course! That huge Jerusalem that is so big it takes an angel to measure it, that has a multitude of people and cattle (Zechariah 2), the one God dwells in, the one He calls "Zion." That is what they are gathered together to destroy. And they are not all trying to destroy Jewish occupied Jerusalem. In fact, all the nations of the world (including Communist nations) got together in the United Nations in 1947 and created the present nation we know as Israeli. And this idea that Russia is trying to destroy Jewish Israeli does not stand on close examination. It was Russian Communists who tricked the Egyptians into moving all their armies out into the Sinai desert in 1967 where they were completely at the mercy of Israeli planes. And the Russians never raised a hand to save the Arabs. The only nation that all the world is being gathered together to destroy is the United States of America. Even our so-called allies like the governments of Sweden, France, and England (and the American government) are helping the anti-God enemies of America. Yet deluded Christian ministers look at old Jerusalem and erroneously call its Jewish occupants "Israel." No, my friends, "all the people of the earth" are gathered against the New Jerusalem, the United States of America, God's Country, the land of the regathering of the true descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel.

New Jerusalem - In Palestine? In Heaven? On Earth? We have seen that Zechariah indicated that "all the people of the earth" would be gathered against prophetic Jerusalem. And we also read that Christ told the Jews, "The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation . . ." As we read some specific descriptions of New Jerusalem, let us keep in mind that Jesus taught "the Gospel of the Kingdom," not just a gospel of personal salvation, as some think. All four Gospels make that plain in the beginning of His ministry. Read Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15, Luke 4:43, John 3:3 and others. In John 3:3 Christ explains the connection between personal salvation and the kingdom, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The ultimate purpose of Christ's finished work on the Cross was to provide man with the means to enter the kingdom. Jesus Christ said, "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by Heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is His footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King" (Matt. 5:34-35). The city of the great King! Turn to Revelation 3:12, which links the born again believer with the city of God, New Jerusalem. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the Name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." God's new Name is Jesus Christ. The name to be written on the inhabitant of New Jerusalem is His new name, "Christ man," or "Christian!" The "city of my God," New Jerusalem, will be a Christian place, a place of born again believers, where the Saviour Jesus Christ is believed on and praised , not an old city that has the same name, where Christ is hated and denied.

New Jerusalem the Bride Revelation 21: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea ["sea" in prophecy signifies human turmoil]. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven …" This is the same as Rev. 3:12. It is very clear that New Jerusalem is not in heaven, but that it "comes from" heaven! As can be seen, these Scriptures do not fit the teaching that the New Jerusalem or the Kingdom is somewhere other than on earth. Let us read on . . . "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." The "bride" of prophecy! These are the first 2 verses, but my Christian reader should continue through verse 8 for the beautiful description of the kingdom. Then in verse 9 and 10 John says, "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come up hither, I will shew thee The bride, the Lamb's wife, And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." The angel showed John the bride. And what was the bride? "The holy Jerusalem." The Church is never called "New Jerusalem" in the Bible, yet ministers teach the church is the bride. If you have been taught the bride of Christ is some sort of "gentile church," you should read Revelation 21 over until you see the truth.

Israel The Bride John goes on to describe this New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, "Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone [here is that stone again] most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon . . ." And what were the names that were written on the gates to this New Jerusalem? "Which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel!" Yes, Israel is the Bride, and she will be purified of sin and corruption, for she is washed in the blood of her Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ. Israel shall no longer be a harlot, the divorced wife of the great Jehovah. Israel was made a widow indeed with the death of her Husband, who took her punishment upon Himself on the Cross of Calvary (Isa. 53, 54). Then she, upon receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized for remission of her sins, becomes the new, cleansed, and made ready virgin Bride of Christ. This is the Israel with the law written in her heart, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people" (Heb. 8 and Jer. 31:31). Yes, Israel is the Bride! We will read a few more verses of Revelation 21 before we turn to one of God's prophets to complete this study of the New Jerusalem. Verse 15, "And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof." This is obviously the same angel referred to in Zechariah 2 who was measuring Jerusalem. The Scriptures are always consistent; there is no discrepancy when the Word is used to interpret the Word. And that the New Jerusalem is on earth is verified by many Scripture verses including verse 24 of Revelation 21, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

There Will Be a New Temple in New Jerusalem At the same time Christians must understand the nature of the temple that will be built in New Jerusalem (and which God will bless!). Every Christian should know this (but they do not), so that they will not be deceived by ministers who preach "lying divinations" about old Jerusalem and the Jews. The Holy Word makes it plain of what substance this new habitation of Christ will be built. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? . . . for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Cor. 3:16-17). "Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you . . . for ye are bought with a price" (1 Cor. 6:19-20). That the temple (Christians) is not to be defiled by associations with unbelievers is made abundantly clear in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, including the oft-quoted "be ye separate," and God's promise, "And I will be a father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." That God's new habitation is to be made up of all believers is disclosed by Paul in Ephesians 2:19-22 "now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household (see "sons and daughters" above) of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets ("New Testament Christians," please note the inclusion of the "prophets," or Old Scriptures!), Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together growth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Is the new temple to be one of stone built in old Jerusalem? Hardly. Jesus Christ verified the substance of the new temple and its new location. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven [not in heaven - but Coming down from heaven], and I will write upon him My new Name [Christ]" (Rev. 3:12). It is nothing more nor less than pure blasphemy to teach that the non-Christian Jews are going to build a temple of stone in old Jerusalem, and then God will bless it and make that old city His New Jerusalem. In fact, Christians died by the tens of thousands during the 100 years of the Crusades in a mistaken and vain attempt to return and possess the temple in Jerusalem. God prevented it. Old Jerusalem was forsaken 1900 years ago!

Where are We Today? What we have just read is not yet complete, however. It will not be finished until after the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. So let us turn to one of God's prophets to see where we are in present world history. God gave all of His prophets visions of His kingdom, but we will finish this study with Micah 4. "But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord [and remember that "mountain" is prophetic for nation, so Micah is speaking of the nation of the house of the Lord] shall be established in the top of the mountains [above all nations], and it shall be exalted above the hills [small nations]; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord." What did Zechariah say New Jerusalem would be called? "The mountain of the Lord of Hosts." (Zech. 8:3).

The Nation of New Jerusalem Reading on in Micah 4: 2, "Let us go up to the mountain [nation] of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." That is where we started our study. And we are not in the old city of Jerusalem! Then in verse 7, "And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation . . ." Who was cast off? Israel was cast off into the Assyrian captivity, and then was driven north and west into Europe to become the great Christian nations of Europe. Then representatives of all the tribes were gathered into the great melting pot nation, the greatest nation that has ever existed in all recorded history, the only one founded by those who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as the virgin born Son of God, the United States of America! God has made us a "strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion, from henceforth, even for ever. And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion [not the old mother; the daughter!], unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion . . ." And what will come? "The kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem!"

America - Not Israeli Yes the United States of America is that great nation promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Gen. 18:18 and others). It is that great nation spoken of by Christ, when He said to the Jewish priests in old Jerusalem, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Let us review a few of the names and Scriptural terms used to describe New Jerusalem, or the Kingdom: the Bride of Christ, the holy city, the city of the great God, New Jerusalem, the burdensome stone, this stone, a city that angels measure, the towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein, the city of truth, the mountain of the Lord of hosts, the great Zion, a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof, and on and on. Is that the old city of Jerusalem we see in Palestine under the Jews? Is it that old city at any future time? No! What you see in old Canaanland, in old Palestine, is the city "that killest the prophets," the city that is now "as Shiloh!"

Even Our Troubles Testify of Our Identity With all we have read in mind, and considering the present situation of the United States of America, surrounded by the nations under the control of World Communism, out government infiltrated by and under the control of anti-Christ people, let us read the rest of Micah 4. We will see this prophecy is now America's current history. Verse 9, "Now why dost thou cry aloud? Is there no king in thee? Is thy counselor perished?" We certainly seem to be without good counsel in government! "For pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail. Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail." Something is going to be born out of all this trial and tribulation we are going through. "For now shalt thou go forth out of the city [forsake God's laws], and thou shalt dwell in the field [in anarchy, civil disorders, revolution, and violence], and thou shalt go even to Babylon." This always stumps those who do not know the correct identity of the "daughter of Zion." It simply means we will come under the control of the international money powers known in the Scripture as "Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth" (Rev. 17:5) (That is a study in itself - see my "Billions$ for the Bankers$ and Debts to the People"). Deliverance Comes at the Moment of Defeat! But at the very time when the anti-Christ international conspirators think they have us in their grasp, we will be saved! "And thou shalt go even to Babylon, there shalt thou be delivered: there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hands of thine enemies [see Luke 1: 68-71]. Now also many nations are gathered against thee [all prophets prophesied this], that say Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion." All the nations of the earth are being gathered against the United States of America, God's great Zion nation. But God goes on through His prophet, "But they know not the thoughts of The Lord, neither understand they His counsel: for He shall gather them as sheaves into the floor." Then we are ordered to battle, "Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion; for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth."

The Last Battle We will close this study of the two Jerusalems with that, for it is not my purpose here to describe the battle in which God's Israel people in New Jerusalem will be saved from their enemies. I have done that in "The Bible says: Russia Will Invade America." But most Bible students know that all prophecy points to a time when there will be fought between Israel and Israel's enemies, between Christ and anti-Christ, the great battle often called "The Conflict of the Ages." That that battle will be fought here on this great North American continent is abundantly clear to those who understand both history and prophecy. For we, the White, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Germanic, and kindred peoples, gathered here in the United States and Canada, are those Israel people. The victorious conclusion of that battle under the banner of Jesus Christ will usher in God's great Kingdom on earth, the millennial reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And His Kingdom is not limited to any one nation, for when "out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem," then "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev. 11:15).

Why Christians Have Not Known This I realize that this Bible study has uncovered many things that some Christian readers have never heard. So I must make it clear that, while I do disagree with much of present day preaching on Israel and the two Jerusalems, I blame the erroneous teachings more on the seminaries than on the preachers. I have read or seen book after book used by seminaries, and they are filled with thousands of pages of treatises, themes, essays, demands, arguments, studies and "proofs" that the people known today as the Jews are God's Chosen People Israel. It is simply not so; but I cannot entirely blame a minister who was brought up in a church that taught this error, then went to a seminary that gave him hundreds of hours of instruction in this error, and then turned him out to associate with other preachers who have also been taught the same error. Henry Ford, a great Christian layman, in his monumental and almost forgotten book, "The International Jew", wrote, "The reading of the Scriptures which confuse the tribe of Judah with Israel, and which interpret every mention of Israel as signifying the Jews, is at the root of more than one-half the confusion and division traceable in Christian doctrinal statements. The Jews are not the Chosen People, though practically the entire Church has succumbed to the propaganda which declares them to be so." He wrote that in 1921. Our seminaries are the victims of "certain men who crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." (Jude 4).

The Holy Spirit Paul explained how we were to know the things of God. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14). God makes His Word plain to those who ask Him for understanding, and Jesus Christ explained to us how we would understand future events through the Spirit. "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." Future! Future history will be shown by the Holy Spirit. How? By visions and signs and wonders? No! God reveals Himself through His Word - interpreted by the Holy Spirit. So please ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, instead of asking a minister who repeats only what he has been taught in the seminary. And read your Bible!!

Israel Identity the Key to Proving the Bible As Christians and parents, how can you convince your children of the Truth of the Bible, and the faithfulness of our God, unless you teach them the truth of our Israel Identity? Ministers tell millions of our young people that the Jews are "God's Chosen People", that there are supposedly fewer Israelites today than there were over 2000 years ago, and that the Old Testament is about other people, the Jews. They are totally unable to show the relevance of the Scripture to our race, our nation, or our time, when the truth of the matter is that the Scripture is primarily about our race, our nation and our time! "Hear, ye deaf; and look ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but My servant?" Let's tell our children the truth about Israel, that we the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Germanic, and kindred peoples are the true descendants of the twelve sons of Israel, and that our great nation and the great Christian nations of Europe are the nations promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Let us prove to them that we have a covenant keeping God, that the Bible is the Word of God, that it is true, and we have been Redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. As a minister, I can say that nothing will open up the Bible, or prove its Truth, like the true identity of Israel today!

Old Jerusalem to be Occupied by the Enemy at the End of the Age We have already seen that God was to make Jerusalem as Shiloh. One of the things that was to happen to Shiloh was, "and thou shalt see an enemy in My habitation" (1 Sam. 2:32). This did happen to Shiloh, and if God's Word is True, it must happen to the old city of Jerusalem. Ezekiel saw the same thing, for we read in Ezekiel 36:12, "Also thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains [nations] of Israel, and say, ye mountains of Israel, hear the Word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God: Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession." Now, who possesses the places of worship of ancient Israel? Not the true Israel people, but the Jews. God goes on to say, "Surely in the fire of My jealousy, have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea [Edom], which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey." The Jewish Encylopedia, Vol. 5, page 41, 1925, says, "Edom is in Modern Jewry." Again, who has old Jerusalem, Palestine, and the "ancient high places" in their possession?


TOPICS: History; Theology
KEYWORDS: christian; jerusalem; jew; religion
I found this sometime ago. I can't remember where. Some preacher breaking down the meaning of the Holy Bible's prophecies at the end of times. It got me thinking. Jesus our Lord was Jewish. Are we(Christians) the new Jewish people with a new covenant? I mean no disrespect for the OG Jewish people, God knows it. Let the mudslinging begin. Hey! Who threw that tomato at me?
1 posted on 09/15/2011 1:04:28 PM PDT by Ancient Drive
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To: Ancient Drive

Bookmark.

It also looks a little like Herbert W. Armstrong stuff.


2 posted on 09/15/2011 1:21:49 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Ancient Drive

Oh yeah. The “British Israelism stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong


3 posted on 09/15/2011 1:23:04 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Ancient Drive

Those who seek after the Lord with all their heart and follow His Commandments can rightfully be called spiritual Jews.


4 posted on 09/15/2011 1:23:23 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Exercise your right to arm bears.)
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To: Ancient Drive

http://www.cogwriter.com/britishisrael.htm


5 posted on 09/15/2011 1:23:28 PM PDT by Silver Sabre
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To: Ancient Drive
Your thoughts are hardly original.

Every now and then someone tosses this piece in there for us to chew on.

First chew ~ Saddam Hussein was rebuilding Babylon a brick at a time. It still exists ~ the problem is the Euphrates River moved a tad so the city was rebuilt on the Tigris and is today called Baghdad.

Damascus is still around, but there's a very dire prophecy regarding its end ~ kind of like something you'd get with a serious nuke or two.

Some schools of thought draw a distinction between Prophetic and Actual cities and nations. That was much more popular in the 1800s before the cuniform tablets left behind by the Sumerians were found. Sumer was around 4,000 years before Abraham began his grand march out of Mesopotamia. Before those plates most of the ancient places were considered by learned scholars to be, at best, vague memories of small villages inhabited by near naked hunter gatherers, or simply mispronunciations handed down by word of mouth in a pre-literate time.

The common belief that Babylon has been destroyed is my favorite one to attack ~ since Babylon was never destroyed ~ just abandoned ~ all those prophecies dependent on its destruction have yet to happen! The destruction of Damascus has yet to happen.

BTW, there are currently more Jews in Israel than in any other country ~ somebody is returning from somewhere most likely.

6 posted on 09/15/2011 1:24:14 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: cuban leaf

It also looks a little like Herbert W. Armstrong stuff
It's not. It's Sheldon Emry.
7 posted on 09/15/2011 1:25:16 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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O RLY?

8 posted on 09/15/2011 1:28:52 PM PDT by evets (beer)
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To: Olog-hai

Thanks for the clarification. Something to look up...


9 posted on 09/15/2011 1:32:22 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Ancient Drive

There are so many errors here that it isn’t worth spending the time to correct.
Go study and come back improved.


10 posted on 09/15/2011 1:34:02 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (You know, 99.99999965% of the lawyers give all of them a bad name)
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To: Ancient Drive
Sorry, but every single prophecy in Scripture has ended up LITERALLY fulfilled, despite the nay-sayers over time. Criticisms of the return of a Levitical priesthood, return of the nation of Israel in 1948 after 1900 years etc... puts the lie to anything like a "spiritual Israel" or a "spiritual Jew"..

Read Paul's letters where he explicitly says 'has God abandoned Israel then and adopted Gentiles instead'? And emphatically answers "No": they are blinded for a time to bring in the Church... Israel and the Church are separate things...
11 posted on 09/15/2011 1:42:42 PM PDT by Acrobat (Remind me again why I moved from Washington to California?)
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To: Ancient Drive

I don’t like replacement theology and this “nothing-you-see-if-really-real” type of stuff. Just go to Jerusalem and see it for yourself.


12 posted on 09/15/2011 1:49:35 PM PDT by jonatron (This is the Land of the Free, the Home of the Brave.)
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To: Ancient Drive
Are we(Christians) the new Jewish people with a new covenant

No.

Supercessionism (also known as Replacement Theology) is a very old heresy. It has been around since the days of Justin Martyr and has been the basis for much of Christianity's long and sad history of anti-Semitism, theft, persecution, and murder of the the Jewish people. The National Socialist Party of Germany used it as a theological reason for the Holocaust - which is why most Lutherans in Germany did not have a problem with how Jews were treated.

My suggestion to you: run away from this as fast as you can.
13 posted on 09/15/2011 1:57:13 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: cuban leaf

What I wonder is if the old temple is the foundation for the new, just as scripture....I think the new temple will descend onto the old and fit like a glove...but I don’t know...makes me wonder..


14 posted on 09/15/2011 2:20:44 PM PDT by aces
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To: aces

But is the old Shiloh the new Pittsburg Landing?


15 posted on 09/15/2011 2:23:45 PM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Ancient Drive
OK, let me see if I got this right. YHVH promises the land to Abraham and all His descendants. As promised, the children disobey YHVH and ignore His Covenant Laws so He destroys the Temple, not once, but 2x, the 2nd after Yeshua dies for our transgressions. So now we are to believe that there is a new promised land, not spoken of in His Word and it it America? Now who is the conceited one? Wasn't that the biggest transgression of all, man's conceit that destroyed the 1st 2 temples? People also need to get over this Jew & Gentile thing. There was no such thing until conceited man labeled one tribe out of the 12 because they clung to YHVH & it because of them that we even have YHVH’s WORD to read today. Everyone should be bending down & thanking a descendant of Levi, Judah & Benjamin for enduring persecution in order to preserve our eternal heritage!
16 posted on 09/15/2011 2:59:36 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Acrobat
Read Paul's letters where he explicitly says 'has God abandoned Israel then and adopted Gentiles instead'?

1st, Paul was talking about the 2 branches of the olive tree, the northern house(Ephraim) & the southern house(Judah & Benjamin). So these are not pagan gentiles who never had any historical connection to either branch that Paul is speaking of. What really trips my trigger is this...People who claim to be Gentiles (yes, I fell for this for a long time) & claim heritage to the eternal Kingdom. Gentile literally means “out of Covenant”, Hebrew meas “crossed over”. So setting religion of man aside, if we say we are followers then we are Hebrew Israelites. When Abram entered the Covenant he became Abraham, he crossed over, so those that claim the eternal kingdom is for any gentile are just plain ignorant & unstudied in the Word of YHVH because He emphatically speaks in His Word of the 2 types of gentiles.

The fact of the matter is, according to Paul, both houses(north & south) are partly blinded until Yehua's return, not just one. Christianity has missed the boat too and might I add, in a deeper & more damaging way because they have rejected His Covenant Law. Covenant & Law cannot be separated, they are one in the same. Therefore, if one claims to be a Gentile Christian, I wouldn't brag about it come judgment day.

17 posted on 09/15/2011 3:22:40 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

There are clues in the Bible as to the “new Israel”.

Israel was to have a new home, other than Canaan Land.(2 Samuel 7:10)

Israel’s new land was to be inhabited by people gathered from many nations. (Ezekiel 38:8)

Israel was to have a land of unwalled villages, without walls, bars or gates. (Ezekiel 38:11)

Israel was to have a land of great agricultural wealth.(Deuteronomy 28:8-11)


18 posted on 09/15/2011 3:37:19 PM PDT by Silver Sabre
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To: Silver Sabre

Read Moshe’s (YHVH”) speech right before they crossed over the Jordan. Right then & there, it was prophesied that the 10 northern tribes (House of Ephraim) would become out of Covenant & they would be scattered to the far ends of the earth and that He would go seeking them to bring them back. He was not talking about pagan gentiles who had plenty of gods & religious feasts of their own, ie christmas & easter, He was prophesying about the children of the YHVH’s Covenant and their descendants. He promised them one land to hold forever & it is nowhere near the United States. Though He has used our nation to protect His lost sheep for a very long time. 2 Samuel is speaking of the temple. You skipped over 2 Samuel 7:1-2 where He states that the Ark of YHVH is kept in a tent. The rest speaks of the dispersion of Israel who YHVH had cast out because of their refusal to adhere to the Covenant. And this dear freeper is how rumors & false prophecy begins. By taking one little line of Scripture and twisting it to fit ones fantasy.


19 posted on 09/15/2011 4:04:03 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

Israel was to have a land of great agricultural wealth.(Deuteronomy 28:8-11)

Sounds pretty staightforward to me. Is modern Israel a land of great agricultural wealth? Don’t think so.


20 posted on 09/15/2011 4:10:57 PM PDT by Silver Sabre
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To: patlin

his letters were to the Church, composed of Gentiles and Hebrew believers, thus the opening ‘Grace and Peace’ incidentally. Paul at one point in Acts says to the Hebraic Jews rejecting Jesus “we are going to the Gentiles because you have rejected Christ”... He wasn’t talking about another branch of Hebrews... you really have to twist Scripture out of the writer’s intent into some contorted picture to get that Gentile doesn’t mean Gentile and Hebrew doesn’t mean Hebrew.


21 posted on 09/15/2011 4:11:42 PM PDT by Acrobat (Remind me again why I moved from Washington to California?)
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To: Acrobat
Unless one reads what Aramaic term was used for gentile, then one is clueless to what Paul was saying & he spelled it out in no uncertain terms in Romans 7 : “Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law),...”. He literally starts out that if you do not understand Covenant Law (Torah), then he is not speaking to you. Rm 7 is all about how YHVH could remarry a wife after He divorced her & after she had been defiled by another. How is it possible? Unless you know Torah, you read into Paul's words that which is not there.
22 posted on 09/15/2011 4:32:29 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: massgopguy

Just as possible as my theory...well said...


23 posted on 09/15/2011 8:40:00 PM PDT by aces
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To: Ancient Drive

Thank you everyone for your insight. Yeah, deep in my heart I know the Israelis still have a role to play. Who are we to replace them?


24 posted on 09/16/2011 3:03:33 PM PDT by Ancient Drive (DRINK COFFEE! - Do Stupid Things Faster with More Energy!)
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To: Tzfat
Are we(Christians) the new Jewish people with a new covenant

No.

Let's see what the Bible says:

"I know thy (church at smyrna) works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:9)

"Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy (church of Philadelphia) feet, and to know that I have loved thee." (Revelation 3:9)

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29)

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.(Romans 4:13-18)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-9)

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7)

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.(Galatians 3:16)

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Si'nai, which gendereth to bondage, which is A'gar. For this A'gar is mount Si'nai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Galatians 4:22-26)

Modern day Judaism, who reject Jesus Christ, Christ called them children of the devil:

I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him. We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. (John 8:38-44)

We believers have always been the children of the promise. The Bible is clear who the true Jews are. (And maligning believers by equating them with Nazis is a lie of Satan.)

25 posted on 09/16/2011 3:06:11 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Ancient Drive
forgot to include the tin foil hat in the first post
26 posted on 09/16/2011 3:07:04 PM PDT by Ancient Drive (DRINK COFFEE! - Do Stupid Things Faster with More Energy!)
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To: nonsporting
maligning believers by equating them with Nazis is a lie of Satan

You are on the wrong side.

Read Luther's "Jews and Their Lies" - used by the Nazis. Then read Romans 11, Rev 14, the books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Malachi etc., and get back to me.
27 posted on 09/16/2011 4:57:33 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
You are on the wrong side. Read Luther's "Jews and Their Lies" - used by the Nazis. Then read Romans 11, Rev 14, the books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Malachi etc., and get back to me.

I am not on Luther's side. I am on Christ's side. What I object to is to the use of a broad brush to tar Christians for the errors of the Catholic Church and its offshoots. They've been killing my brothers and sisters for many hundreds of years. Read Revelation 17 to discover who the great whore is who sits on seven hills.

Can you site which verses from Romans, Revelation, etc. to support your position (which you should state explicitely).

I've sited many verses to support who the Bible says are the true "Jews" and what Jesus considered [modern day] Judaism which rejects him.

28 posted on 09/17/2011 9:47:49 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting

Romans 11. All of it. “Real” Jews are who they always have been: physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The heresy you are spouting is call Supercessionism, or “Replacement Theology” - an evil and vile doctrine used to persecute Jews by “Christians” (Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc.) for 1,900 years. When Christians repudiate that evil teaching they begin to see the value of Genesis 12:3. You may not be think you on Luther’s side, but you have expressed his thoughts well. Shame.


29 posted on 09/17/2011 10:13:07 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
Romans 11. All of it. “Real” Jews are who they always have been: physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

That is not what the Bible says. Let's see who the "children of the promise" are, who exactly are "Abraham's seed."

13* For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14* For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16* Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Romans 4:13-16)

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7)

26* For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27* For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28* There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29* And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)

The Jews of the flesh are not the heirs according to the promise. All those who are in Christ Jesus are the heirs.

There is hope for "physical sons of Abraham", just as there is hope for all in unbelief, that they may hear the gospel and believe:

And they also, if they abide not still inbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Romans 11:23)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness of Jacob: For this is my convenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:26,27)

Many stop here and say, "See. It says 'all Israel'." Paul in chapter 9 indicates what he means by 'all Israel':

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect, they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They, which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

It cannot get much clearer than this. They which are the "children of the flesh" , simply by virtue of being physical descendents of Abraham, are NOT the children of God, the children of promise. "All Israel" includes all faithful sons of Abraham (who come to Jesus) as well as believing gentiles.

So, who is a "Jew"?

28* For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29* But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:28,29)

You are calling this a heresy?

30 posted on 09/18/2011 7:34:04 AM PDT by nonsporting
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