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City Demands Christians Get Permit For Bible Study
WND ^ | 9/18/2011

Posted on 09/18/2011 2:31:40 PM PDT by Just4Him

Chuck and Stephanie Fromm already have been fined $300 for holding Bible studies for their friends at their home, and they face the potential for additional fines of $500 for each study held, according to a legal team taking their case to court.

The newest conflict over Bible studies in homes in America arose in San Juan Capistrano, Calif., where city officials say city code section 9-3.301 prohibits religious organizations in residential neighborhoods without a conditional-use permit, a sometimes very expensive procedure.

The code cites "churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations."

(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: antichrist; bible; biblestudy; bigbrother; catholicism; christian; competition; democrats; governmentintrusion; govtabuse; liberalfascism; lping; mafia; tyranny
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1 posted on 09/18/2011 2:31:44 PM PDT by Just4Him
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To: Just4Him

This is utterly ridiculous and will not survive a court case.

Hey Californians, Do you have tort reform yet where the loser has to pay all costs?

(rolling eyes)


2 posted on 09/18/2011 2:34:59 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Just4Him

Tell them they’re Muslims. They’ll get a pass.


3 posted on 09/18/2011 2:36:00 PM PDT by SkyDancer (A critic is like a legless man who teaches running.)
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To: Just4Him

But if your friends came with their prayer rugs and studied the Koran, I’m sure that’d be hunky dory.


4 posted on 09/18/2011 2:37:13 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: SkyDancer

Good one!


5 posted on 09/18/2011 2:38:09 PM PDT by Just4Him
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To: Just4Him

Just tell them it is a book discussion group.
They don’t need to mention the book being discussed is the Good Book.


6 posted on 09/18/2011 2:40:46 PM PDT by MistrX
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To: Just4Him
Some Americans need to read the US Constitution's Bill of Rights, Amendment 1:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

7 posted on 09/18/2011 2:41:24 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: Just4Him

So Freedom of Assembly gets kicked to the curb. I almost posted what I would do.


8 posted on 09/18/2011 2:41:36 PM PDT by eyedigress ((Old storm chaser from the west)?)
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To: Just4Him

This is outrageous!

Parishes have been holding Bible studies in the homes of volunteer members since time immemorial. And the first ever Christian parishes met in homes—see the Book of Acts. MIssion parishes often start in homes to this very day.

Home Bible studies are none of the business of the state—or of nosy or anti-Christian neighbors.


9 posted on 09/18/2011 2:43:22 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: Reagan Man

Very good.


10 posted on 09/18/2011 2:43:22 PM PDT by eyedigress ((Old storm chaser from the west)?)
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To: SumProVita
-- This is utterly ridiculous and will not survive a court case. --

IIRC, cases similar to this have survived court challenge. The decision turns on car traffic, basically. Have cheer, it pertains to those who want to set up mosques in residential zones, too.

11 posted on 09/18/2011 2:44:18 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Just4Him

A violation of the First Amendment by the anti-religion Nazis. I suppose they’ll fine people saying grace before dinner next. It’s time to start putting these Nazi fag politicians in prison. They are out of control with all of their hatred of America.


12 posted on 09/18/2011 2:45:21 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Hey Mexico! Your poverty isn't America's problem.)
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To: Honorary Serb

Agreed. My grandmother used to hold these ever Saturday evening. Very small group with cookies, and punch. Never bothered anyone. God help us all!


13 posted on 09/18/2011 2:45:21 PM PDT by Just4Him
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To: Reagan Man
Their argument to the Supreme Court will be that the Bill of Rights only says that Congress can't do those things, not that liberal California democrats can't. They've probably got 4 votes agreeing with them too.
14 posted on 09/18/2011 2:46:37 PM PDT by ZGuy
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To: FlingWingFlyer

It’s gonna backfire.


15 posted on 09/18/2011 2:47:00 PM PDT by eyedigress ((Old storm chaser from the west)?)
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To: Just4Him

Yep, Step foot on the property and try to stop it. See how much money it would take to settle the account! They would own the city and do as they please afterwards.


16 posted on 09/18/2011 2:47:19 PM PDT by jafojeffsurf (Return to the Constitution)
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To: Just4Him

Call the SWAT teams, kick in the doors and shoot the dogs. No Bible study in this neighborhood without permission!


17 posted on 09/18/2011 2:47:28 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Just4Him

The key phrase here is “at their home”. It’s incredible to me that we have fallen so far in this Country, but here we are...


18 posted on 09/18/2011 2:48:15 PM PDT by Bean Counter (Obama got mostly Ds and Fs all through college and law school. Keep repeating it.....)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: ZGuy

Need to force charges against atheists and humanists for gathering without a permit.


20 posted on 09/18/2011 2:49:08 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (O assumes the trappings of the presidency, not its mantle. He is not presidential.)
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To: Just4Him

This may point out a dillema - a conflcit between two rights. One right is the paractice of religion and freedom of religious expression. The other is the neighboring property owners’ rights to limit uses to those allowed by zoning which are compatible. It is the right to enjoy ones property without posing substantial injury to someone else’s. Parking, traffic, noise etc can pose a burden on other property owners unless mitigated.


21 posted on 09/18/2011 2:49:39 PM PDT by marsh2
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To: Reagan Man
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Congress didn't make a law. The city enacted an ordinance.

The Constitution is the chain that binds federal government. Local governments are subject to short ropes and tall trees, if they step too far over the line.

/johnny

22 posted on 09/18/2011 2:51:44 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Cboldt

After I posted, I thought about people who could have a substantial number of attendees (on a regular basis). I suppose it has to do with local ordinances, etc.

Ahhh well....


23 posted on 09/18/2011 2:53:13 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Just4Him

This is unconstitutional from so many angles, where do you start? They have a huge back yard...no traffic or parking issues. They are no different than a book or any other club that would meet once a week for some purpose.

The city is specifically targeting and discriminating against religion, as there is nothing specific to the charges, other than it being claimed they are a ‘church’. If they are a church then is the city giving them the appropriate non-profit status that goes with a church? I doubt it.


24 posted on 09/18/2011 2:55:10 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: Just4Him

This is an example of communists hate for religion. Freedom, hell we have lost so much that makes a communists country looking better.


26 posted on 09/18/2011 2:55:40 PM PDT by Logical me
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To: SumProVita
-- After I posted, I thought about people who could have a substantial number of attendees (on a regular basis). --

Again, IIRC, the study groups aren't the size of a typical Sunday Football Watching gathering place - more like 30 or 100 people, and however many cars that represents, parked on the side of the road, etc.

Not that I trust the courts, but usually they get a case like this one correct, and for the right reasons. Nothing against the religion, it's all about the traffic and the road-narrowing effect of parking.

27 posted on 09/18/2011 2:59:40 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Just4Him

If most of the congregation is Hispanic, then I’ll eat my hat.

The ONLY people who it’s cool to bust for something religious is WHITES.

If you’re black and your “sermon” consists of blasting America as a pack of Blue-Eyed Devils, you have NO FEAR of losing your 501c3 status —you’re safe. The system says that’s, “righteous anger”, and it’s a good thAng.

If however you let out a SINGLE political peep as a Bible-waving honkey, you’ll have every nomex-clad ninjya smashing through your stained glass in nothing flat.

Waco-equivalents will NEVER happen in anything but a white church —it’s OK to kill them.


28 posted on 09/18/2011 3:01:54 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: Just4Him

First time I knew that government could regulare religious assembly.

First amendment rights?


29 posted on 09/18/2011 3:02:31 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

regulate


30 posted on 09/18/2011 3:06:24 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: JRandomFreeper

If Congress can’t discriminate against religious freedom, neither can a local govt. A city ordinance in this case does not trump the Constitution. We have the same thing happening with state and local gun control laws that restrict the RKBA. I know when something is unconstitutional. This is it.


31 posted on 09/18/2011 3:11:29 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: Cboldt

“IIRC, cases similar to this have survived court challenge. The decision turns on car traffic, basically.”

I wonder if Super Bowl parties, birthday parties, and bridal showers are held to such scrutiny... Tupperware parties? Methinks there is plenty of ammo to unload in a courtroom on this one.

Granted, the above are not regular meetings, so that would be the argument against it.


32 posted on 09/18/2011 3:13:48 PM PDT by CaspersGh0sts
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To: Just4Him

Shady - and sleazy - attempt by local government at a surreptitious violation of the First Amendment.

Meanwhile, God weeps for the human race as Satan laughs up his sleeve.


33 posted on 09/18/2011 3:16:02 PM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: SkyDancer

That city counsel would not enforce their law on Muslims due to their fear of getting blown up.


34 posted on 09/18/2011 3:17:28 PM PDT by drypowder
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To: Louis Foxwell
Need to force charges against atheists and humanists for gathering without a permit.

That would be the city council. But, no problem, they can issue themselves permits without all the red tape.

35 posted on 09/18/2011 3:19:40 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Reagan Man
Actually, several states did establish state sponsored religions, and regulations are left to the state.

'Incorporation' of constitutional protections that affect the states is an uncompleted business.

Taking a strict reading of the Consitution, it's a state or local matter.

And that's where the short rope and tall tree come into play.

/johnny

36 posted on 09/18/2011 3:20:33 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Just4Him

San Juan Capistrano is of course home to one of California’s historic Pagan Catholic “missions.”

They definitely do not want any competition from Jesus Christ!
.


37 posted on 09/18/2011 3:23:17 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: SkyDancer

>> “Tell them they’re Muslims. They’ll get a pass.” <<

.
LOL!


38 posted on 09/18/2011 3:24:38 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: gaijin

>> “Waco-equivalents will NEVER happen in anything but a white church —it’s OK to kill them.” <<

.
Actually more than half of the women and children that Wesley Clark burned to death at WACO were black.
.


39 posted on 09/18/2011 3:28:30 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: Just4Him

Time to start fighting fire with fire. When the lefties have their Obama-whatever meetings (remember he encouraged parties at liberal homes in support of Deathcare?) or any other liberal meeting in a residential home, they should be fined for interfering with noise regulations, zoning violations, focusing too much idiocy in one place, overburdening traffic, homeowner association violations...


40 posted on 09/18/2011 3:30:22 PM PDT by LostInBayport (When there are more people riding in the cart than there are pulling it, the cart stops moving...)
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To: CaspersGh0sts
-- Granted, the above are not regular meetings, so that would be the argument against it. --

The cases I have a vague recollection of all involved regular gathers, sometimes more than one time a week, and involved what I think everybody would agree was a "traffic disruption" when underway.

The decision should turn on just that, traffic, occupancy limits, and similar.

41 posted on 09/18/2011 3:34:00 PM PDT by Cboldt
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Capistrano Couple in Legal Battle for Hosting Bible Study in Home

From this story, there is no parking issue, and the citation was issued probably at the insistence of one jerkwad neighbor (others are supportive of Fromms) against a statute that ...

prohibits "religious, fraternal or non-profit" organizations in residential neighborhoods without a conditional-use permit. The footnote on the section says it "Includes churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations."
On the other hand, what they are doing presents a traffic pattern that resembles that of a small church ...

Town Bans Home Bible Studies - DailyCristo

Stephanie holds one study during the week which is attended by about 20 people, and Chuck holds one on Sundays with about 50 people.

42 posted on 09/18/2011 3:47:04 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: JRandomFreeper
>>>>>Taking a strict reading of the Consitution, it's a state or local matter.

The initial move by city officials of San Juan Capistrano was a local decision. But religious freedom is a sacred right written into the Bill of Rights. This decision is actually discriminatory in nature. No local, state or federal govt has a right to prohibit religious freedom. This is the same type of situation regarding local, state and federal infringement of the 2nd amendments RKBA. Trampling on the Constitution is what this is. Plain and simple.

43 posted on 09/18/2011 3:48:34 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: Reagan Man

They are probably doing it under the excuse of causing parking congestion.


44 posted on 09/18/2011 3:50:01 PM PDT by Eva
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To: Just4Him

Filthy cellar Christians! Send in SWAT, and take them to Reeducation Center 42!

It is outrageous that anyone would somehow believe that they can just, willy-nilly, have people come to their house to reinforce their own twisted antisocial mythology by “studyng” a racist, mean-spirited, intolerant, Islamophobic, homophobic, and violent “religious” book.

It is bad enough that they refuse to worship like decent people in the local Obamatorium Orgasmatron Mosque, but to deliberately undermine society and pollute their neighborhood with their hateful doctrines is intolerable in a tolerant society!


45 posted on 09/18/2011 3:54:37 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch ("Public service" does NOT mean servicing the people, like a bull among heifers.)
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To: Just4Him

So call it a book club and tell the city regulators to get lost.


46 posted on 09/18/2011 4:02:00 PM PDT by Eva
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To: Eva
Agreed. 20-50 people can really upset a neighborhood. So lets smack down a small group of people who are engaging in their Constitutional and God given right of religious freedom. Its a small issue and will probably be settled at the local level. I'm just in a pissy mood today and am tired of everyone trampling on the Constitution. There is really no honest defense of this decision that I can see. Some will try to offer a defense. One actually has, but they're ALL wrong.
47 posted on 09/18/2011 4:03:49 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: Just4Him

It’s upwards of 50 cars. That’s kind of a lot.

That said, I presume they are paying property taxes. Perhaps they SHOULD obtain a permit to become a church, in which case they will cease to have to pay property taxes.

Indeed, they should pay the fine and demand their money back for property taxes —— the City can’t have it both ways.


48 posted on 09/18/2011 4:07:16 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (Nothing to see here. Move along.)
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To: Just4Him
Chuck and Stephanie Fromm already have been fined $300 for holding Bible studies for their friends at their home

It's a good thing for the judge that I'm nowhere near California. This nonsense MUST stop.

Hey judge! Come and get me too. I've probably got more Bible books on my shelf here than you have law books; and sometimes I read them.

ML/NJ

49 posted on 09/18/2011 4:09:13 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: Just4Him

wow. just .wow

nanny state, make room for regulo-state


50 posted on 09/18/2011 4:13:25 PM PDT by jbp1 (be nice now)
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