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whom do mormons worship?
Mark Cares' blog ^ | Oct. 4, 2011 | Mark Cares

Posted on 10/05/2011 8:26:50 AM PDT by Colofornian

I pose this, not as a trick question, but sincerely. To me, a non-Mormon, there are a couple of things that just don’t add up. The one is that Mormonism teaches that the Father and Son are separate Beings. It interprets their oneness that the Bible talks about as a unity of purpose or something similar, but never as a unity of being. But what trips me up is a LDS Scripture like D&C 20:19. “And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being that they should worship.”

The things that strikes me are the singulars (only God. . .only being). Who is the only being that this verse refers to? Who is the only being that should be worshipped? Does this refer to Heavenly Father or Jesus? It seems pretty clear to me that this scripture states that only one God is to be worshipped and, according to Mormonism, “one God” and “one being” can’t refer both to Heavenly Father and Jesus. Therefore my question: whom do Mormons worship?

Or more pointedly, would it be accurate to say that Mormonism does not teach worship of Jesus? The brief article on worship in the manual, True to the Faith, at the very least, causes one to ask that question. It quotes Moses 1:15: “Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.” In the next paragraph it specifically mentions that prayer is one way to worship the Father. A little bit later it says: “As you reverently partake of the sacrament and attend the temple, you remember and worship your Heavenly Father and express your gratitude for His Son, Jesus Christ.” Again, as a non-Mormon, I find that distinction between Heavenly Father and Jesus quite striking.

The bottom line is that D&C 20:19 states that only one being is to be worshipped. In light of that, I think it is only fair to ask, whom do Mormons worship?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: inman; jesus; lds; mormon; worship
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From the blog: Mormonism teaches that the Father and Son are separate Beings. It interprets their oneness that the Bible talks about as a unity of purpose or something similar, but never as a unity of being. But what trips me up is a LDS Scripture like D&C 20:19. “And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being that they should worship.” The things that strikes me are the singulars (only God. . .only being). Who is the only being that this verse refers to? Who is the only being that should be worshipped? Does this refer to Heavenly Father or Jesus? It seems pretty clear to me that this scripture states that only one God is to be worshipped and, according to Mormonism, “one God” and “one being” can’t refer both to Heavenly Father and Jesus. Therefore my question: whom do Mormons worship? Or more pointedly, would it be accurate to say that Mormonism does not teach worship of Jesus?

Q1 Do Mormons worship Jesus?
A It depends upon which Mormon and which Mormon leaders you talk to. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie advised Lds STRONGLY in 1982 to not worship Jesus.

McConkie must have seized upon the Mormon "scripture" of D&C 20:17-19 as the key verse that would “guide” his pattern of worship once & for all: and that he should be the ONLY BEING whom they should worship ... as he quoted it to BYU students. (See Our relationship with the Lord)

Christians worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders -- like Lds "apostle" McConkie when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).

I DIRECTLY pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).

Q2 If some Mormons do worship Jesus -- and if they deem Jesus a "separate" god than Heavenly Father, doesn't that mean they worship more than one god?

A Yes.

To show you the extent of confusion this has caused even among Mormon leaders, look at "apostle" McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine:

"Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)

Q3 Wait a minute. Didn't you just get done telling us that McConkie advised BYU students NOT to worship Jesus in 1982?

A Indeed, he did, after saying the above in 1966! But McConkie was so confused, he would say "3" then "2" in the same book...and then eventually settled on "1" by 1982!

McConkie, on p. 848 of Mormon Doctrine, emphasized worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).

Q4 Doesn't the Book of Mormon contradict even the two-god worship theory of McConkie's?

A Yes. Mormon 7:7 reads: 7And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the bworld, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to ddwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

So you can see how confusing this gets...trinitarian theology is found frequently in the Book of Mormon...including worshiping the Holy Spirit!

Q5 Doesn't it all boil down to how many gods you worship?

A Yes.

Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Joseph Smith's concocted "Nephite disciples" called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18).

And look @ what other Mormon "scriptures" say:
* The D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures [for example, the Mormon "scripture" from the Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6)]
* All this means is that either Jesus is a false god or is the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?

1 posted on 10/05/2011 8:27:02 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Well, Colo, as you know, if you ask one Mormon Lady Lawyer, she will tell you that she has only one Lord, Jesus Christ. If you ask a PD, it will respond that the godhead is worshipped. If you ask Delphi abuser, you will get a too long essay which will not answer your question but will suffice to obfuscate the question. So, perhaps you could write to Tommy MOnson and have him answer ... or not, since he isn’t likely to answer a gentile.


2 posted on 10/05/2011 8:40:28 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

peepstone profit popcorn placemarker


3 posted on 10/05/2011 8:51:03 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Joseph Smith, America’s first Comic Book author. He Produced the Adventures of Nephi-Mormon-Moroni)
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To: MHGinTN

Allow me, a life-long, active Mormon to respond. The tricky part of your question, in the mind of a Latter-Day Saint, is the word “worship”. What do you mean by that? In modern parlance the word has shades of meaning. An active Christian might say he ‘worships’ Angelina Jolie or Tom Brady, but it would be clearly understood that the term ‘worship’ in its purest sense could only refer to Jesus Christ.

We worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the Redeemer, The Saviour. We, however, never pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and by the power of the Holy Ghost.

We pray only to the Father, but we Worship The Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit, if you prefer) and we recognize them as individual beings, or one Godhead.

It may seem a bit confusing to outsiders, but it makes perfect sense to a Saint.


4 posted on 10/05/2011 8:51:43 AM PDT by 47samurai (The last real conservative)
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To: MHGinTN
So, perhaps you could write to Tommy MOnson and have him answer ... or not, since he isn’t likely to answer a gentile.

Actually, as of almost one year ago, Tommy Monson won't answer Mormon faithful either on such doctrinal questions.

If we went back to Oct. 24, 2010, it'd have been just weeks after the Lds faithful had gathered for one of their two key 'y'all" come meetings in Salt Lake City, which are fed via satellite around the world to Mormons who can't make the trek to SLC. You would have thought that if an earth-shaking announcement needed to be made, it would have been made there. It wasn't. Perhaps too much media glare was on the conference. Therefore, more quietly, Lds leadership sent a world-wide circular letter to all church members. Here's two sources for that:
Source 1: Quit pestering us, church leaders tell membership in letter
Source 2 -- from a Mormon columnist, Robert Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me

From the first source:
On October 24th, the LDS First Presidency (led by Prophet Thomas S. Monson) wrote several letters that were to be read in Mormon Sunday services around the world. According to examiner.com, the first letter was “likely spurred by Boyd K. Packer’s most recent General Conference talk entitled ‘Cleansing the Inner Vessel.’ Church Headquarters has been receiving an increased amount of correspondence from its members about doctrinal issues. Because of this influx of correspondence, the First Presidency reminded and encouraged LDS church members to utilize their local church authorities – bishops, branch presidents, stake presidents, etc — before resorting to contacting Church Headquarters.” In other words, the Mormon laity was told to quit bothering their church leadership on issues related to doctrine. We can only wonder why the church is apparently receiving so many inquiries.

From the second source (Kirby): With only partial tongue in cheek, Kirby said: "According to the First Presidency’s letter, members with real doctrinal concerns were to seek the counsel of our local leaders — stake president, bishop, Scoutmaster, building custodian, etc."

Why? Well, per Kirby: "The letter...told/counseled rank-and-file Mormons to stop pestering church headquarters for clarification of church doctrine. Apparently some members get so stressed about the finer points of doctrine that they’ll fire off a letter asking for the final word. Church HQ can’t handle the demand...

There ya go. Just as a Wall Street Journal writer said: "placing sharp limits on doctrinal questioning" [Many an Lds historian has commented on this as well...do your own Google search with the words "faith promoting" in quotations...add the words "historian" and "Lds" to the search for better specific results]

5 posted on 10/05/2011 8:52:13 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Methinks they worship money and themselves.


6 posted on 10/05/2011 8:52:38 AM PDT by MIchaelTArchangel (Perry is STILL a DemonRAT of the worst kind--one who is from Texass!)
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To: Colofornian

Lots of believers understand God, the father, and Jesus to be separate entities/souls. It’s not just Mormons. Jehovah’s Witnesses have them as separate beings as well. Certainly Jews see them as two different souls. In fact, of all the world’s religions, only modern Christians have the trinity doctrine. It’s not clear that the early church had that belief, either. They knew him to be the SON of God.

FWIW, worshipping Jesus is never specifically commanded in the Bible (though there are instances of people doing so). You will not find a verse that says to worship Jesus (follow, obey, etc., sure, but not worship). In Revelation, a holy angel (which may or may not be Jesus, depending on your interpretation of Revelation) corrects John when he sees himself falling down to worship the angel and says that the testimony of Jesus is to worship GOD.

“Rev.19:10 — And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”


7 posted on 10/05/2011 8:57:14 AM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: Colofornian

This will become a very common thread if Mittens is nominated.........


8 posted on 10/05/2011 8:57:22 AM PDT by volunbeer (Keep the dope, we'll make the change in 2012!)
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To: 47samurai; MHGinTN; Colofornian
We pray only to the Father, but we Worship The Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit, if you prefer) and we recognize them as individual beings, or one Godhead.
It may seem a bit confusing to outsiders, but it makes perfect sense to a Saint.

And in classical deflection fashion the attempt is maintained to keep it cloudy.

By "individual beings" mormon define them as separate, stand alone 'gods' - which by definition is polytheism - which by your admission IS CLASSICAL polytheism - the worship of multiple gods.

Lets further clarify matters - the mormon definition of 'godhead' is not that which is found in the Bible - but one that corrupts the biblical uses for polytheistic purposes - that is the mormon 'godhead' is nothing more than a committee.

Colofornian and MHG are quite correct in this - with the plethora of answers - I seriously doubt 'saints' understand.

9 posted on 10/05/2011 9:05:21 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Colofornian

This is the true Jesus:

Colossians 1:13-17 (KJV)

“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,

and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood,

even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God,

the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created,

that are in heaven, and that are in earth,

visible and invisible,

whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:

all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things,

and by him all things consist.”


10 posted on 10/05/2011 9:08:33 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Colofornian
Since lds teach godS not god, could be anybody.
11 posted on 10/05/2011 9:09:45 AM PDT by svcw (Those who are easily shocked... should be shocked more often. - Mae West)
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To: 47samurai

Nothing pertaining to Joe Smith’s Mormons make no sense.
He made it up as he went along.
Its a hoot to watch how today’s Mormons try to defend his ranting and ravings.


12 posted on 10/05/2011 9:13:58 AM PDT by Duffboy
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To: 47samurai; MHGinTN
We, however, never pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and by the power of the Holy Ghost.

That might be behaviourly true of most Mormons today. If Mormons take the Book of Mormon as historically serious, however, they would realize that even their version of Jesus Christ invited, accepted and encouraged DIRECT prayer to Him!

Of course LDS just tend to ignore many 3 Nephi passages, including one section where the Nephite disciples pray directly and incessantly to Jesus (not just "in Jesus' name" directed at the Father):

“And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26)

Stephen, in the book of Acts (Acts 7 -- at the end of the chapter), also prayed directly to Jesus!

Tell us, 47 Samurai. How long have such a disobedient disciple? -- failing to emulate both Stephen & book of mormon characters?

13 posted on 10/05/2011 9:14:52 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: 47samurai
As my response to your gentle reply, please read the following little essay:

The One God evidences Himself in the work He is doing

The following will be 'a way' to understand the notion of the trinitarian nature of the Deity, not a strictly Biblical explanation, but one which is applicable to the teaching of the Bible. Here goes:

God The Father Almighty is greater than His creation, thus greater than dimension time and dimension space, thus we may think of The Father Almighty as beyond time and space but not prevented from touching and indeed penetrating His creation.

The universe of space and time is likened to a bubble: what is inside the bubble is in time and space. But the nature of what is inside the bubble is only partially understood in modern Physics.

The Bible relates scenes which defy our simplistic notions, but let us make the statement that God The Father Almighty is as comfortable outside the bubble of our spacetime as He is inside the bubble.

Modern Physics has discovered that the balance of forces and tensions sustaining the universe necessary for human life to arise within the universe is extremely delicate, on the order of a mathematical improbability, represented as a 'one in less than' fraction so tiny that a one over a one followed by more than one-hundred zeros [1/1x10100] defines the probability that the whole thing remains in balance! Such a delicate balancing act is but one of the continuing 'works' of the Holy Spirit of God. It is by the Spirit of God, The Word, that the universe came into existence and it is said in the Bible that by His Spirit the whole is maintained.

But the Bible also states that The Word was with God in the beginning and was God. In John's gospel we find that Jesus is The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us. So, inside the bubble Created by The Father Almighty, sustained by God The Holy Spirit, is the Word, God made flesh Who dwelt among us. The Creator does not stop being greater than His creation bubble, nor does His Spirit cease to sustain it all in balance, when Jesus comes in the flesh to dwell among us.

When one reads the Tanakh/Old Testament, one finds scenes like the fifth chapter of Daniel where a being is in one spacetime 'where/when' reaching into another 'where/when' to write on the palace party central wall of king Belshazzar. Just the forearm/hand is seen in the where/when of Belshazzar and the party folks, the rest of the being remains in 'another' where/when.

God The Father Almighty created this 'other' where/when, His Holy Spirit maintains its balance and separateness from our where/when, and Jesus has moved in and out of this other where/when: as shown when He resurrected from the tomb without rolling away the stone, just passing out of the tomb where/when, into 'another' where/when; then back into our where/when as He spoke to the women come to the sepulchre; and when He appeared in a locked and shuttered room with the disciples present; or appeared suddenly with the disciples walking on a road and broke bread with them then left our where/when to go to the 'other' where/when.

The trinitarian nature of God is shown in the Bible, even in the Tanakh. Trinity IS the nature of God as we have been given to know. Even in the Old Testament/Tanakh, we do have instruction on the Three nature of God as Creator, Sustainer, and Deliverer. God Is manifested as three yet one, seen identified by the 'work' He is doing/'action' He is taking.

With each manifestation, we are given to realize His presence simultaneously as Creator--because we exist in the realm He created, as Sustainer--because the balance is too delicate to stand alone without His sustaining the separation and interdependence, and as God with us in the person of Jesus our Lord and Savior.


14 posted on 10/05/2011 9:18:00 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: 47samurai

Do you look forward to when your own created people will worship you as a god?


15 posted on 10/05/2011 9:20:06 AM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Godzilla

It may surprise you to find out that Muslims consider all Christians to be polytheists for the same reason,i.e; that Christians have elevated Jesus to the position of God. The God of the Bible is clearly polytheistic. Witness the baptism of Jesus... You had Jesus standing in the water, The voice of the Father coming down from the heavens declaring Him to be His Son, and the Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove. As well as countless examples of Jesus praying to His Father and referencing the Holy Spirit.

The Mormon understanding of the personalities of the Godhead were quite commonly understood by all Christians until the 4th century, when the Catholic definition of the Trinity took over.

Indeed, even today, many evangelical Christians, based on their own studies of the Bible have come around to this point of view .... (see Jimmy Swaggart for an example)


16 posted on 10/05/2011 9:20:15 AM PDT by 47samurai (The last real conservative)
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To: 47samurai; MHGinTN; Godzilla
We worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the Redeemer, The Saviour. We, however, never pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and by the power of the Holy Ghost. We pray only to the Father, but we Worship The Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit, if you prefer) and we recognize them as individual beings, or one Godhead.

So, since you see Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three separate gods, you worship three gods -- in direct contradiction to D&C 20:19, which claims Mormons are to worship the "the only living and true God, and that HE SHOULD be the ONLY being that they SHOULD worship.”

Tell us, 47Samurai, how long have you have problems comprehending words like...
..."should"...?
..."ONLY"...?
..."HE" as singular...?
..."Being" as singular...?

So, we can safely say that you categorically reject D&C 20:19 as a true statement or prophesy -- if God is separately divided into three beings, that is.

17 posted on 10/05/2011 9:20:52 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Jesus of Kolob?


18 posted on 10/05/2011 9:22:09 AM PDT by HenpeckedCon (What pi$$es me off the most is that POS commie will get a State Funeral!)
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To: 47samurai

The God of the Bible is definately NOT polytheistic, despite your claims:

Consider the following verses, which indicate there is only one God:

Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deuteronomy 4:39
The LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me.

1 Kings 18:39
The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

Isaiah 43:10
I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8
I am the LORD, and there is none else ... There is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:5-6
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.

There is no God else beside me ... There is none beside me.
Isaiah 45:21/A>

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me.

Mark 12:29
The Lord our God is
one Lord.

Mark 12:32
There is one God; and there is none other but he.

John 17:3
That they might know thee the only true God.


19 posted on 10/05/2011 9:27:55 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Colofornian
Most believers claim to worship God, but many cannot seem to worship anything but themselves.

That is why they imagine God to be so very much like themselves in every aspect.

Mormons think that they themselves shall become Gods - so with them it is even more endemic.

20 posted on 10/05/2011 9:32:01 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: Turtlepower

John 17:3
That they might know thee the only true God.....

Who said that, again?

.... and what follows the ellipses?


21 posted on 10/05/2011 9:33:07 AM PDT by 47samurai (The last real conservative)
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To: 47samurai

Fourth Century? But wasn’t that well into the ‘fallen into apostasy’ that your prophet claimed occurred with the death of the last Apostle? And this Father god that Mormonism claims, was he once a man and had to earn the attributes of godhood before siring the spirit children, the LDS inc jesus and his spirit brother Satan in the ‘pre-existence’? Are you sure this father god your worship is The God? Your own Journal of Discourses states that a council of ‘gods’ appointed this father god you worship to be the god of the Earth and humankind, and that the mormonism jesus had to also earn the attributes of godhood to become a part of the troika of gods for Earth and humankind. Are you sure you worship the same God found identified in The Bible?


22 posted on 10/05/2011 9:33:20 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Colofornian
Colo, as you know, I don't debate theology with you or your group on a public forum like this, but please, if you are going to post arguments from the Book of Mormon, be thourough and complete about it.

The post you snipped about the ancient Nephites praying to Jesus is incomplete without the rest of the passage. But I suspect you knew that. Here's verses 19-23 that you snipped out.

3rd Nephi 18:

19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:

20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/19?lang=eng

Carry on. I won't debate here, but please don't snip the relevant verses.

23 posted on 10/05/2011 9:37:54 AM PDT by Ripliancum (Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you. -Eph. 4:31)
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Further, in the chapter right before this, Jesus specifically commands them to pray to the Father, in his name. To try to say the BoM teaches otherwise is less than forthright.

3 Nephi 18:19-21

19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name;

20 And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.

21 Pray in your families unto the Father, always in my name, that your wives and your children may be blessed.

That is all. Have a good day.


24 posted on 10/05/2011 9:45:39 AM PDT by Ripliancum (Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you. -Eph. 4:31)
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To: stranger and pilgrim

it it true that 3 lefts make a right but 2 wrongs..not so much

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us

Jesus Was and Is the Word and Was and Is God.


25 posted on 10/05/2011 10:07:36 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: 47samurai

So the book of John is mistaken that Jesus was the Word and that the Word Was God ?


26 posted on 10/05/2011 10:08:40 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: 47samurai

Jesus, who said “I and the Father are one.” and “Before Abraham was born, I AM.”


27 posted on 10/05/2011 10:10:09 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: stranger and pilgrim
FWIW, worshipping Jesus is never specifically commanded in the Bible (though there are instances of people doing so). You will not find a verse that says to worship Jesus (follow, obey, etc., sure, but not worship).

"FWIW" in this specific case means "not much"...and actually, I'm being quite generous.

What? You never got around to reading the book of Hebrews? Here, allow me to quote it for you:

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” (Heb. 1:6)

(I guess if you were an angel and had disobeyed this, that would have placed you in the demon camp, now wouldn't have it? Is that the camp you subscribe to? In fact, let's cut to the heart here & not talk abstractly...it sounds as if you yourself don't worship Jesus...is that true?)

Certainly when God brought his firstborn into the world, the wisemen complied in worshiping Jesus (see Matthew 2:8,11) [You're not going to start yelling diatribes @ wisemen scenes & nativities each Christmas, are you, for worshiping Jesus?]

Also, we learn from the Gospels about worshiping Jesus by looking @ Jesus' reaction. Did He rebuke those who worshiped Him?

38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. (John 9:38) (the following verses to that one also show the "blindness" that Jesus wished to heal people of wasn't simply physical -- but spiritual -- to correctly see the Lord as He is, and to respond in worship like this blind man did.

What about Mary Magdalene and the other woman who worshiped the resurrected Jesus? 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. (Matt. 28:8-9)

Did Jesus tell either of them to rise to their feet -- to "don't do it" -- like an angel did elsewhere in the NT?

Or what about the disciples?
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:16-20)

Note there, too, the reaction of Jesus. No rebuke was given. No warning issued.

And frankly, in the Jewish culture, even to say to a Being, "My Lord and my God!" was in and of itself a great act of honor, worship, and glorification!

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29)

28 posted on 10/05/2011 10:14:45 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: 47samurai

Sadly, the LDS church is honoring a very small jesus.

See my post #10.

The true Jesus is the CREATOR of the whole universe.

The true Jesus existed BEFORE anything else.

Everything was CREATED BY HIM.

The true Jesus holds everything together.

The true Jesus is BEYOND our experience and comprehension, BUT He took on human form for us.

He was NOT a mere human who then became a little bit better than He was before.

From Colossians (KJV).

“For by him were all things created,

that are in heaven, and that are in earth,

visible and invisible,

whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:

all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things,

and by him all things consist.””


29 posted on 10/05/2011 10:17:29 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Ripliancum

Please see post number 14 above.


30 posted on 10/05/2011 10:18:52 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Ripliancum
“I don't debate theology with you or your group on a public forum like this”

Typically, I've seen Mormons unable to defend their beliefs on this forum. I applaud you for at least attempting to make a point. The inability or unwillingness of Mormons to articulate logical responses to critiques of their belief system strongly suggests there simply aren't legitimate counter positions.

31 posted on 10/05/2011 10:24:38 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Colofornian

I’m not interested in debating this. I was just pointing out that not all people who believe in Jesus believe that he was God. Many understand him to be the son of God, a separate and distinct soul, with free will to choose.

Believe whatever helps you sleep at night.


32 posted on 10/05/2011 10:25:49 AM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: Ripliancum; 47samurai; All
3rd Nephi 18:

(You mean 3 Nephi 19, not 18, don't you? Or is that "arguing" or "debating" with you? Which is somehow disagreeable to you? So if you miscite the wrong chapter from the Book of Mormon, what you are telling all of us is that even on such a simple matter, we can't correct you? Wow, Rip! Just wow! Don't overwhelm us with your humility!)

Everybody snippets, Rip...few posters even respond to EVERYTHING another poster says...some part of what they say catches their eye, and they respond. You don't cite the entire Bible each time you quote it, do you? That means, you, too, segment/parcel it out.

So allow me to focus on the ONLY part of the verse which seems to uphold your point...v. 22 at the end: ...they pray unto me because I am with them. [Snip, snip]

Now for you to be consistent with this point, then you would have to also hold to the position that Jesus is no longer "with" us. Do you hold to this position?

If so, then you would make Jesus out to be a false prophet. For Jesus absolutely promised His disciples that: "and, lo, I am with you ALWAYS, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:20)

So much for you "Amening" with Jesus' real presence with us unto the end of the world, eh, Rip?

I won't debate here, but please don't snip the relevant verses.

(No need to "debate" Rip; because based on the above, your point doesn't carry much weight)

33 posted on 10/05/2011 10:28:10 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: stranger and pilgrim
I’m not interested in debating this.

Translation: "I can't Biblically support what I've tried to ignorantly export."

(Yeah, I know. We get it. You either don't worship Jesus; or never have, and now that I've called you on both what you tried to export as "Bible knowledge" as well as challenge you to stop discussing "worshiping Jesus" in the abstract, you say, "let's move along now.")

34 posted on 10/05/2011 10:31:24 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: 47samurai

“we recognize them as individual beings”

Clearly polytheism.

Mormons worship three gods... plus, of course, Heavenly Mother, the fourth mormon earth god. So four mormon earth gods are acknowledged as “individual beings” and worshipped.

The other few billion mormon gods are not worshipped.


35 posted on 10/05/2011 10:35:48 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (You know, 99.99999965% of the lawyers give all of them a bad name)
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To: Colofornian

They will CLAIM they worship Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, however that isn’t true.

In reality they worship ‘the LDS Church’ and Joseph Smith. Do they pray to Joseph? Not at all, but they revere him in a way that is worship. Same with the LDS church, ‘the Church’ always comes first, Jesus is always just a footnote, you can see this in conference talks, in their testimonies, in the admonitions to never do anything to make ‘the church’ look bad, the temple rituals - the law of consecration is about giving to “THE CHURCH”.

Of course the LDS will deny it, I would have too when I was LDS, it was only after I became a Christians and started worshiping God, Jesus, and the Spirit, did I see that when I was LDS it was all about “The Church” and Joe Smith, not God or Christ at all.


36 posted on 10/05/2011 10:36:40 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: 47samurai; Colofornian; P-Marlowe
If Jesus' father is "God the Father GtF1", then who is "God the Father's 1" father?

And wouldn't he be the real "God" on the block? (Or would it be GtF2 father, GtF3...GtF4?)

37 posted on 10/05/2011 10:39:54 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: 47samurai

It may surprise you to find out that Muslims consider all Christians to be polytheists for the same reason,i.e; that Christians have elevated Jesus to the position of God.

... Sorry, Christians did not “elevate Jesus to the position of God.”
... Sorry, Muslims are wrong again.

“The God of the Bible is clearly polytheistic.”

... Heresy. He is not polytheistic.

“Witness the baptism of Jesus... You had Jesus standing in the water, The voice of the Father coming down from the heavens declaring Him to be His Son, and the Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove. As well as countless examples of Jesus praying to His Father and referencing the Holy Spirit.”

... This does not make God polytheistic. It makes you a heretic.

“The Mormon understanding of the personalities of the Godhead were quite commonly understood by all Christians until the 4th century, when the Catholic definition of the Trinity took over.”

... Sorry, the great councils codified what was already believed and taught by the Church. They did this because heresies like mormonism (arianism) were attacking the Church.

“Indeed, even today, many evangelical Christians, based on their own studies of the Bible have come around to this point of view .... (see Jimmy Swaggart for an example)”

... You will find heresy in many places. That never makes it true.


38 posted on 10/05/2011 10:41:03 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (You know, 99.99999965% of the lawyers give all of them a bad name)
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To: 47samurai
The God of the Bible is clearly polytheistic. Witness the baptism of Jesus...

Both muslims and mormons are wrong on this very point - because of deliberate misrepresntation of the Trinitarian doctrine plus what the bible actually states.

Witness the baptism of Jesus...

Which does not require polytheism to answer 47.

As well as countless examples of Jesus praying to His Father and referencing the Holy Spirit.

Again, taken to the exclusion of the witness of the rest of the bible - the nature of the Incarnation.

The Mormon understanding of the personalities of the Godhead were quite commonly understood by all Christians until the 4th century, when the Catholic definition of the Trinity took over.

You really haven't done any research past mormon sources have you. The doctrine of the Trinity (by name) occurs as early as the second century in ANF writings. BTW, Athenagoras in AD 177 for example (Plea for the Christians) defined the Trinity in almost the exact same words as Nicea. Same with Theophilus of Antioch in AD 168.

See, mormon 'understanding' of the Godhead is further flawed because they view it through the eyes of smith - and not what the bible ACTUALLY says. Where mormons reference it (when they do) -

Col 2:9 KJV - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The greek for "Godhead" is 'theotēs' which is defined as the state of being God (not 'a' god). This is further reinforced by the use of "fulness" (plērōma) which results in the understanding that everything God was present in Jesus - this is not a committee on Kolob 47, but biblical evidence of the understanding of the Trinity at the apostolic level.

Indeed, even today, many evangelical Christians, based on their own studies of the Bible have come around to this point of view .... (see Jimmy Swaggart for an example)

Citations please that evangelicals are becoming polytheistic.

39 posted on 10/05/2011 10:41:03 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: stranger and pilgrim
Here's somethiing borrowed from Freeper William Clark, illustrating how one can have faith in 'a' Christ but not the true Savior Christ. 'Believe whatever helps you sleep at night' may sound serviceable to you, but God's Spriit still stands at the door of the soul and knocks. Of course there are effective drugs to blunt the rapping, as no doubt you know:

"I always like to use the analogy of Jim Caviezel [In Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of The Christ']. Like the Mormon Jesus, he dressed the part, spoke the same words (in the original language, no less), and was referred to as Jesus Christ within a specific context, but it makes all the difference in the world whether one worships and depends upon him for their salvation or the genuine article."

40 posted on 10/05/2011 10:42:50 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: 47samurai; Turtlepower
Who said that, again?

Set within this statement

Jhn 1:1 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We know that the Word is Jesus and we know that He was not only with God but was that very same God - Trinitarian construction - not polytheism 47.

Further - the context - Jesus - God in the flesh was praying as an example for his disciples at the time - that they might know the Trinitarian God.

41 posted on 10/05/2011 10:45:49 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

4.. depends are you counting Adam as God as per b.young ?


42 posted on 10/05/2011 10:46:29 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

4.. depends are you counting Adam as God as per b.young ?


43 posted on 10/05/2011 10:46:46 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: fishtank

We believe nearly everything you just posted.


44 posted on 10/05/2011 10:48:36 AM PDT by 47samurai (The last real conservative)
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To: 47samurai

Nonsense!

Christians believe that Jesus is The Creator - Mormons teach that Jesus was creatED. Something that is created can’t be the creator of ALL things.

Christians believe that Jesus is, was, and always will be the one and only God - Mormons teach that Jesus was created as a man, the literal physical offspring of a different diety, and earned his divinity as some point.

Very big differences...


45 posted on 10/05/2011 10:54:12 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: 47samurai; Ripliancum; Godzilla
The God of the Bible is clearly polytheistic.

You know, Joseph Smith copied many, many chapters from the prophet Isaiah into the Book of Mormon (italics and all...italic words were words the KJV translators added in the 17th century to words not in original Hebrew text). Because these were word for word, we get the picture that the so-called Mormon "prophets" of lore (and I emphasize Lore as in "myth") trusted the prophet Isaiah down to every word.

Were the God of the Bible "clearly polytheistic" then both those "prophets" of BoM lore -- as well as Smith in the JST -- should have re-edited the book of Isaiah to the following "specs" so that your polytheistic Gods could be superimposed upon Isaiah:

So, I've done you the "courtesy" to have your current or next "prophet" change these verses in the Bible (just like what Joseph Smith thought he had the authority to do) to read as follows:
* "I am the Lord, and there are others; apart from me there are multiples of gods." (A perversion of Is. 45:5)
* "I am the Lord, who has organized all things, who with a council of gods stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth with my fellow divine family members." (A twisting of Is. 44:24)
* "It is us who made the earth, and created mankind upon it. Our own hands stretched out the heavens; we marshaled their starry hosts." (A pretzel version of Is. 45:12)
* "I am the first, well almost, and I am certainly not the last; there are other gods all around me." (More twisting - this time of Is. 44:6)
*"Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are our witnesses. Are there gods beside me? Yes, I know plenty." (Utter perversion of Is. 44:8)
*"Before me generations of gods were formed, and so shall it be evermore happily ever after." (Ah, again, the Mormon "gospel" twisted version of Is. 43:10)

May I "sweetly" challenge Lds to go to the Bible they say they adhere to and meditate day and night upon Isaiah 43, Isaiah 44, and Isaiah 45? Isaiah reminds us, as if the above verses weren't enough, in 45:14: "'Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.'"

47 posted on 10/05/2011 10:59:31 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: xzins
Fundamental to the confusion of mormonism is the principle of 'eternal progression'. The leadership of LDS inc have taught that the god of this planet was appointed to be god over this world, appointed by a council of gods which existed prior to the man who earned the attributes of godhood and was appointed god of the Earth realm. This mormonism god then sired billions of spirit children with his goddess wife (wives), two of whom are the LDS inc jesus and satan. It is taucght that jesus then earned the attributes of godhood and has become one of three in the godhead 'godding' over earth and humankind.

"I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)

I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)

As a Christian Pastor, you know this is heretical teaching on par with the greatest heretics in Christian Church History! It is a gnarl of lies designed to support the Mormonism blasphemy that gods in a troika over earth are merely one of many gods:

In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)

For those only vaguely familiar with Christianity, and Judaism, all of the universe and all variations of THE universe came forth from The One God Who is greater than and exists independent of time and space. In the beginning means at, and through the CREATION. There was no 'before' preceding Creation because Time is also a created dimension, as is space a created dimension. Without time events do not occur, without space things do not exist. Even Angels exist in a spatio-temporal realm but we were not made in such a way as to be able to perceive this other spatio-temporal realm in our present state. At the very start of John's Gospel, we find:

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. Young‘s Literal Transalation from the original Greek
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.KJV [THE WORD was God in the beginning, and the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us. INSOFAR as the flesh can hold 'godness', Jesus, The Word through Whom and by Whom all things were created, was made flesh and dwelt among us! Jesus was and is God with us, the Hope of Glory.]

In the Hebrew scriptures (in The Torah) we read:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

And in the New Testament we read Jesus offering:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And those who were trying to trip up Jesus fully understood this as they replied to Jesus regarding The One God Whose name is in Hebrew a plural form.

It is not surprising that people who believe such blasphemies as hallmark mormonism would not like to stand and debate the heresies at the heart of Joseph Smith, et al mormonism/LDS inc.

48 posted on 10/05/2011 10:59:53 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

let me put it this way...PLEASE do NOT presume to tell me what I believe. 90% of the portrayals here of what the Saints believe is either an outright falsehood or a deliberate distortion.


49 posted on 10/05/2011 11:10:16 AM PDT by 47samurai (The last real conservative)
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To: 47samurai

Do you disagree with what your peepstone sexual predator of married women prophet stated, as recorded in the Journal of Discourses?


50 posted on 10/05/2011 11:13:53 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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