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The first Episcopal church in the U.S. to become Catholic under...
Insight Scoop ^ | October 10, 2011 | Carl Olson

Posted on 10/10/2011 12:03:16 PM PDT by NYer

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1 posted on 10/10/2011 12:03:21 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Pictures at link.


2 posted on 10/10/2011 12:05:25 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
Parish web site
3 posted on 10/10/2011 12:07:49 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

As I understand it, the new Anglican Rite of the Catholic Church keeps its services and married priests.

The Anglican Rite is modelled after the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. For example, I have a Lebanese Catholic friend whose church has married priests.


4 posted on 10/10/2011 12:09:14 PM PDT by FormerACLUmember
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To: All
From Whispers in the Loggia ...

At a Mass in the Crypt of Washington's Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Vatican's American delegate for Anglicanorum coetibus, Cardinal Donald Wuerl, welcomed into full communion some 76 members of the former Episcopal parish of St Luke's in the Maryland suburb of Bladensburg, just outside the capital. Yet while some published reports have sought to relay that St Luke's is the first US parish to be received post-Anglicanorum, the DC group is more accurately seen as the nation's second community to complete its Tiber-swim in anticipation of a domestic Ordinariate.

5 posted on 10/10/2011 12:10:22 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

And in other news...

Last week two believers escaped Rome.


6 posted on 10/10/2011 12:11:24 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; NYer

Whoopee! Finally cut off from bad ol' Rome!

7 posted on 10/10/2011 12:22:08 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni! - Beam me up, Scotty.)
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To: Dutchboy88

And every week, still others cross the Tiber TO Rome, as my wife and I did a little over 5 years ago. Are we no longer to be regarded as Christian for having fallen into captivity in Rome?


8 posted on 10/10/2011 12:50:20 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: FormerACLUmember
The Anglican Rite is modelled after the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.

It is similar but different. The Eastern Catholic Churches are overseen by a Metropolitan or Patriarch. While they allow married men to become priests, the majority of the eastern churches only send celibate priests to serve in the US. That is the case, at least, in the Maronite Catholic Church. I am guessing that your Lebanese catholic friend is Melkite which has chosen to disregard the norms of the western church.

In the Anglican Rite model,

The Apostolic Constitution does not dispense from the provisions of the Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church forbidding ordination of women and ordination of those in irregular marriages, but it does make provision for ordination of married former Anglican clergy to the orders of deacon and priest in the service of an ordinariate: "Those who ministered as Anglican deacons, priests, or bishops, [...] may be accepted by the Ordinary as candidates for Holy Orders in the Catholic Church″,[26] Ordination to the priesthood in the Catholic Church is also open to married former Anglican clergy: "In consideration of Anglican ecclesial tradition and practice, the Ordinary may present to the Holy Father a request for the admission of married men to the presbyterate in the Ordinariate.”[27] This request is granted on a case-by-case basis,[28] not as a matter of course but by exception: "The norms established in the Encyclical Letter of Pope Paul VI Sacerdotalis coelibatus, n. 42 and in the Statement In June are to be observed."[29] On the basis of objective criteria determined by the ordinary in consultation with the episcopal conference and approved by the Holy See, the ordinary may petition the Pope, on a case-by-case basis, to admit married men to the priesthood as a derogation of canon 277 §1[30] of the Code of Canon Law, but the general rule is that the ordinariate will admit only celibate men.[31] No married man may be ordained a bishop.
source.

9 posted on 10/10/2011 12:50:51 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Lol ... a picture is worth a thousand words :-)


10 posted on 10/10/2011 12:53:18 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

Thanks!

Very interesting.


11 posted on 10/10/2011 1:00:47 PM PDT by FormerACLUmember
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To: djrakowski
"Are we no longer to be regarded as Christian for having fallen into captivity in Rome?"

Quite possibly. But, only Christ knows for certain the folks given to Him by the Father.

12 posted on 10/10/2011 1:05:08 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Quite possibly. But, only Christ knows for certain the folks given to Him by the Father.

This gives rise to two additional questions:

1) does that mean you don't subscribe to the doctrine of eternal security? I repented of my sins and made a decision to follow Christ in 1997 when invited to do so by a pastor at an evangelistic event in Washington D.C., and have sincerely followed Christ since then. If I was saved then, and if it's impossible to lose that salvation, I don't see why I should be worried merely by having changed ecclesiastical addresses.

2) How can one be saved and remain in a church from which one should, in your words, "escape?"

13 posted on 10/10/2011 1:10:34 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: FormerACLUmember

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration. It is as close as one comes to being at the Last Supper.

14 posted on 10/10/2011 1:15:50 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: Dutchboy88
I will give you credit for at least one thing: the overwhelming majority of our evangelical friends abandoned us as apostates when we told them of our conversion to Catholicism. At least you're admitting the possibility that we're still Christian!
15 posted on 10/10/2011 1:16:38 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

Of course not. And it is most tiresome that some have co-opted the meaning of “Christian” to apply only to their own narrow definition. Very cultish.


16 posted on 10/10/2011 1:21:34 PM PDT by Laur
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To: Laur
Of course not. And it is most tiresome that some have co-opted the meaning of “Christian” to apply only to their own narrow definition. Very cultish.

I agree. But the majority of evangelicals I've personally known would disagree. A friend and fellow convert once approached our former pastor to offer him some material to help him understand why we converted to Catholicism, and he refused to talk to her, then turned and walked the other way. That's been my experience with all but a small handful of kind and charitable evangelicals. Scandalous behavior, really.

17 posted on 10/10/2011 1:27:21 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski
"This gives rise to two additional questions:"

1. Eternal security is a concept which Christ assured those who had been given to Him by the Father. Your confession, decision, or ceremonial celebration have little to do with whether the Son has adopted you or not. Notice in Matt. many will be outside of the door, pounding to get in having done all kinds of deeds for Christ. He says, "Depart, I never knew you." Not, "You never knew Me." I have no idea if He adopted you. Too much "evangelical" ferver has been attached to Billy Graham Crusades & "decisions made for Christ" to the neglect of a clear understanding of the Gospel.

2. Your movement toward an organization which traffics in self-determination is a substantial bit of evidence that you never really understood the Gospel in the first place. Otherwise you would understand how this particular organization does not represent the Gospel of the Scriptures. There is no question that they claim the numbers, the power, the authority and all of the rest...they just lack Christ. If this does not make you nervous, then it might be good indication that you were not among the elect to begin with and you are simply seeking others of like mind. It is done all the time. Read the entire letters to the Romans, Galatians and Ephesians and notice that there is no transaction given among men by which you may be saved. It is unmerited grace granted to those chosen before the foundation of the world. If the Father has given you to the Son, then you are safe irrespective of how screwed up the organization you join really is. Joining them is not advisable, but it even they cannot keep you out of His care...if He has laid hold of you.

18 posted on 10/10/2011 1:39:12 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: NYer
No married man may be ordained a bishop.

Of course, the Catholic Church can impose whatever requirements it wishes upon its adherents, but how do they square the requirement listed above with 1 Timothy 3:2?

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;"

19 posted on 10/10/2011 1:48:03 PM PDT by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: Dutchboy88

Self-determination???? Not in the Catholic Church. Pelegianism and semi-pelegianism were rejected a few years ago if I remember correctly. I teach spiritual theology, using a text by Fr. Garrigou Lagrange (who directed JP II’s doctoral dissertation)—he is pretty well as establishment as you can get within the Church. It is spelled out quite clearly that there is a continual stream of grace from God that we can cooperate with or not. If one is cooperating with grace, that is not self-determination, and if one isn’t cooperating with grace, one isn’t headed in the right determination.


20 posted on 10/10/2011 1:53:51 PM PDT by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: FormerACLUmember

Not exactly. The Anglican ordinariate is a subdivision of the Latin Church where subsequent priests will be required to be celibate.

The Eastern Catholic Churches are in equal footing with the Latin Church in terms of canon law, and most have more autonomy than Latin-rite dioceses do.


21 posted on 10/10/2011 1:56:38 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Hieronymus; djrakowski
"It is spelled out quite clearly that there is a continual stream of grace from God that we can cooperate with or not. If one is cooperating with grace, that is not self-determination, and if one isn’t cooperating with grace, one isn’t headed in the right determination."

This is precisely the kind of semi-pelagiansim that infects the big organizations, most particularly Rome. Of course it is self-determination, my FRiend. If you decide to say "no" to Christ, then you have determined the outcome. If you decide to say "yes", and follow the seven sacraments, you will be saved...according to the Roman Catholic Church. Men determine their fates. The doublespeak does not change your "gospel" into the Gospel. And, this is exactly what I was cautioning djrakowski about.

22 posted on 10/10/2011 2:10:48 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: NYer

**At the basilica, before the archbishop, parishioners stood for Communion. But at St. Luke’s, they’ll be allowed to kneel under the guidelines laid out by the Vatican in 2009 when it announced plans to create a special body that would let American Anglicans keep some of their traditions, including their married priests.**

May they be an example to all of us to kneel to receive Christ in the Eucharist.


23 posted on 10/10/2011 2:24:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: djrakowski

You are welcomed into a much larger family. A place at the final banquiet of the Lord.


24 posted on 10/10/2011 2:28:32 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Dutchboy88
And in other news... Last week two believers escaped Rome.

Waht a truely unChristian and uncharitable thing to say. You must be a very sad and scared little man. I will say a Rosary for your conversion.

25 posted on 10/10/2011 2:32:25 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: All
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Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
He Was an Evangelical Christian Until He Read Aquinas [Rob Evans]
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert
Church Is Still Attracting Converts [Jim Anderson]

26 posted on 10/10/2011 2:36:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verga; Dutchboy88
"I will say a Rosary for your conversion."

....banging head against wall....

{{{{sigh}}}}}

27 posted on 10/10/2011 2:36:46 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: NYer

Excellent response!

And this is very exciting...more brothers and sisters in Christ coming home!

;-))))))))


28 posted on 10/10/2011 2:46:19 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: verga; netmilsmom

I’ve often wondered why folks like Dutchboy88 think comments like these make their sects more attractive than the alternatives. “Gee, I know a great way to make converts... I’ll start insulting everyone who disagrees with me. Yeah, THAT’s the ticket!”


29 posted on 10/10/2011 2:56:22 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: verga; djrakowski
"Waht a truely unChristian and uncharitable thing to say. You must be a very sad and scared little man. I will say a Rosary for your conversion."

Interesting that Rome opts for ad hominem when the truth burns. In the world of the Scriptures, believers are able to speak directly to the Father, crying Abba, something akin to "daddy". We don't need rosaries, alter christus, or any other prop.

In Rome, however, the beads get picked up, the candles get lit, the icons come out, the chants begin, Mary is invoked. Tragic, but managed by God.

In my case, I think I'll opt for following the Scriptures and plead for your eyes to be opened to the truth. Come out of her...if you can.

30 posted on 10/10/2011 2:57:57 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Salvation

Thank you. Truth is a relentless foe.


31 posted on 10/10/2011 3:06:43 PM PDT by ex-snook ("above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
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To: Dutchboy88

If we have no free will to respond to the grace of God and all is predetermined by God’s election, then why do you even bother to convince anyone of what you believe is the truth? After all, if I do not have free will what I believe or do not believe is not my choice and has been predetermined by God.


32 posted on 10/10/2011 3:10:23 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Dutchboy88
"Waht a truely unChristian and uncharitable thing to say. You must be a very sad and scared little man. I will say a Rosary for your conversion."

Interesting that Rome opts for ad hominem when the truth burns.

Please re-read what I wrote very carefully, and look up the meaning of Ad Hom. It literally means "to the man" If I had called you a pathetic dweeb loser... that would be an Ad hom attack. as it was I said that what you Said was unChristian Uncharitable. I don't think anyone would say that your comments were actually christian or charitable. I hope that clears that up for you.

In the world of the Scriptures, believers are able to speak directly to the Father, crying Abba, something akin to "daddy". We don't need rosaries, alter christus, or any other prop.

These would be the Scriptures that the Catholic Church canonized in 393 and 397 at the councils of Hippo and Carthage. the ones that were preserved through the dark ages copying them by hand long before your little cult even was a glimmer in the eyes of some posser?

In Rome, however, the beads get picked up, the candles get lit, the icons come out, the chants begin, Mary is invoked. Tragic, but managed by God.

That is right the same Rome that Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against and the the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL truth.

In my case, I think I'll opt for following the Scriptures teachings of some two bit hustler in a cheap polyesters suit with no theological training and plead for your eyes to be opened to the truth. Come out of her...if you can.

Fixed it for you and by the way, I am a revert the the Catholic Church. I left for a while and then managed to get my head out of my butt by reading the Bible and came Back to the Pillar and Foundation of truth: the Catholic Church.

33 posted on 10/10/2011 3:16:45 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: Dutchboy88

If you decide to say no to Christ, you have resisted grace. Whether it is real grace or not, I’ll leave it up to the Calvinists and God to settle. If you say yes and continue to cooperate with grace, you will be saved—the sacraments are a part of the cooperation with grace. Semi-pelegian holds that after an initial cooperation with grace (sinner’s prayer anyone?) no additional grace is needed. I don’t see how stating that there is a need for cooperating with á continual stream of grace’ can be labelled semi-pelegian unless one is ignorant of what the term means.


34 posted on 10/10/2011 3:17:50 PM PDT by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: Dutchboy88

If you decide to say no to Christ, you have resisted grace. Whether it is real grace or not, I’ll leave it up to the Calvinists and God to settle. If you say yes and continue to cooperate with grace, you will be saved—the sacraments are a part of the cooperation with grace. Semi-pelegian holds that after an initial cooperation with grace (sinner’s prayer anyone?) no additional grace is needed. I don’t see how stating that there is a need for cooperating with á continual stream of grace’ can be labelled semi-pelegian unless one is ignorant of what the term means.


35 posted on 10/10/2011 3:18:04 PM PDT by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: verga
"You must be a very sad and scared little man. I will say a Rosary for your conversion."

Someday, perhaps Rome will give reading lessons to help. The Scriptures were canonized long before there was the bluster from Rome to claim pre-eminence, but that has not stopped the propaganda from proliferating. Next thing we will hear is Rome wrote it all. But, lean on what you must.

Jesus did not promise Rome anything. He was speaking to some apostles about a gathering of citizens called out. Your organization made up the concept of a Roman Church. But, again, the truth hurts. And perhaps the head was never removed.

36 posted on 10/10/2011 4:00:29 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Petrosius; djrakowski; Hieronymus
"If we have no free will to respond to the grace of God and all is predetermined by God’s election, then why do you even bother to convince anyone of what you believe is the truth? After all, if I do not have free will what I believe or do not believe is not my choice and has been predetermined by God."

Because God has directed us to be ready to explain, when we are asked...and you asked. Acts 13:48, those appointed to eternal life believed. QED: If you believe, then you were appointed to believe. Is it troubling that the God of the universe, transcendent and sovereign, high and lifted up, Holy, Holy, Holy can manage your mind as well as the 10 to the 67987789666 molecules in our bodies? Perhaps your God is as tiny as the icons on your mantle.

Of course you have no free will, if by that you mean you function independent of God. If you mean that you must be able to "feel" His control of your mind and your behavior or it does not exist, then you are simply mistaken. Proverbs 21:1, "The king's heart is like a channel of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever He wishes." What kind of believers are we? This kind of persuasive description of God is throughout the Scriptures.

Romans 9:19. Paul clearly recognized that it would be troubling to hear that you are held guilty when you are held captive by His will. His answer? Too bad that this bothers you, but God is able to do whatever He wishes and He is not unjust in doing so. This is precisely why the man-made religion of Rome is not biblical. Notice the semi-pelagian argument coming out of the woodwork, now.

37 posted on 10/10/2011 4:20:26 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
"You must be a very sad and scared little man. I will say a Rosary for your conversion."

I pity you and your desperation

38 posted on 10/10/2011 4:28:35 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: Hieronymus; djrakowski
"If you decide to say no to Christ, you have resisted grace. Whether it is real grace or not, I’ll leave it up to the Calvinists and God to settle. If you say yes and continue to cooperate with grace, you will be saved—the sacraments are a part of the cooperation with grace. Semi-pelegian holds that after an initial cooperation with grace (sinner’s prayer anyone?) no additional grace is needed. I don’t see how stating that there is a need for cooperating with á continual stream of grace’ can be labelled semi-pelegian unless one is ignorant of what the term means."

So much error, so little time. If I say "yes", then you have not determined whether that "yes" was unaided or compelled by God. If it was compelled by God, but you could not "feel" it, has it then not occurred? And, notice, here comes the actions of men to secure the salvation (sacraments). Grace is supplanted by "religion" in Rome.

I am well aware of what Pelagian & Augustine argued over those many centuries ago. I am also aware that semi-pelagianism was considered the unaided will determining for itself whether grace was to be accepted or rejected. This used to be considered heresy even by the Roman organization...until it became apparent what it meant to man's control. May want to revisit the argument to catch the subtleties.

And, in John 16 there is simply no part of the matter Jesus is describing that rests upon a man. But, then that would require a knee bent to the Scriptures...not Rome. The beauty of the Gospel is that no one, no organization, no group, no ceremony, no man's will may supply the work of the Holy Spirit blowing His saving wind wherever He wishes it to go. And, no apostle ever joined a group after it began to blow. Please read the text. Rome just showed up late for the party (250 years late?) and beat others into submission...for some 1250 years.

39 posted on 10/10/2011 4:34:07 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: verga
"I pity you and your desperation"

I believe I left my desparation along with my religion, back at one of the organizations. You may wish to come out of the darkened cult, yourself...if you can. Come into the light of Jesus, alone...if He wills.

40 posted on 10/10/2011 4:41:26 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: djrakowski

Do we have a parish like this near us? Tell me if you go and we’ll join you.


41 posted on 10/10/2011 4:45:12 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: djrakowski; Salvation

Looks like this is it for us in MI.

http://www.anglicanmichigan.org/

But here’s a map I found for others who want to find a parish.

http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2010/10/emerging-anglican-ordinariate.html


42 posted on 10/10/2011 4:54:28 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: netmilsmom

I don’t think we do, but I’ll check and get back to you. I was in Austin in August, and there’s an Anglican use parish in San Antonio, but I didn’t have time to make it there. I went to a spectacular parish in Round Rock (St. William), and the priest, who is a convert himself, had Bishop Flores as his formation director. Small world, eh?


43 posted on 10/10/2011 4:56:39 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: netmilsmom

We need to chat soon. One of our friends is on the board of a crisis pregnancy center and they need some fundraising assistance.


44 posted on 10/10/2011 4:59:35 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: Dutchboy88
I am also aware that semi-pelagianism was considered the unaided will determining for itself whether grace was to be accepted or rejected.

Then you're "aware" of a falsehood. Semi-pelagianism was the idea that the initiative in the ordo salutis (sometimes or always) belonged to man, unaided by grace.

That is, that the natural man could have, by himself, a "good thought" or "good movement," and from that could seek God such that God would reach down and offer him justification.

Against this, the Catholic Church taught at II Orange that nobody could seek God, repent, or believe as he ought apart from grace. Even coöperating with grace requires grace to enable the co&oum;peration. (We are fully capable of resisting grace on our own.)

There was never any question that the unaided will could, by itself, reject grace, nor that the human will, aided by grace, could actively accept subsequent graces. This is why St. Augustine could say:

But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.
-- Sermon 169, paragraph 13 Augustine was no semi-Pelagian.

Your own posts aren't even consistent with full determinism. "Depart from her, if you can"? If full determinism is true, then all "can" rests with God, and none with me. For you to tell Catholics, "Depart from her, if you can" makes as much sense as me opening a cupboard in my kitchen and telling the dishes "Jump down from there, if you can".

That your own posts contradict your theology may be a telling sign that it doesn't make sense.

I have no idea how you get full determinism out of John 16, but I know exactly how to get Catholicism out of Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
Wages are something you earn. You are fully capable of earning eternal death by your sins, and are fully capable of committing those sins. God doesn't compel it at all, for anyone. Salvation, OTOH, is an utterly free gift.
45 posted on 10/10/2011 5:00:28 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Dutchboy88

The sacraments the action of men???? The Church claims that they are the actions of Christ—who yes, did become man—so thay are the actions of one who became man, but not any random man.

Free will and divine providence are both to be held—how they work together is a mystery, but they are both to be held, just as God is three and God is one, and Christ is true God and true man. All are mysteries. Some hold only one of a pair while denying the other, and hold that one can only hold one or the other of the pair. I hold all by faith—and do not assert that I reject those aspects that you do hold merely because I hold aspects that you reject because you, for whatever reasons, believe that both cannot be held. God is three and God is one; Christ is true God and true man; God reigns supreme and governs all and while being the supreme governor of all allows man to cooperate in His Providence. Semi-Pelegian—hogwash. I am no more a Semi-Pelegian than I am an Arian.


46 posted on 10/10/2011 5:20:19 PM PDT by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: Campion
"Your own posts aren't even consistent with full determinism. "Depart from her, if you can"? If full determinism is true, then all "can" rests with God, and none with me. For you to tell Catholics, "Depart from her, if you can" makes as much sense as me opening a cupboard in my kitchen and telling the dishes "Jump down from there, if you can"."

None of the dishes in your cupboard are being managed into salvation. Some humans (being managed like dishes) are.

My fingers ran away with John 16, which s/b John 6. Now go read it and tell me you see nothing there.

But, with Romans 6, you will need to read on to see "rest of the story" and find out what a "free gift" means to Paul. Romans 9:16ff "So then, it does not depend upon the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God...So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" May wish to read Paul's answer. There is something about men being treated like dishes...but it is by their Maker. And He disagrees with you.

47 posted on 10/10/2011 5:24:26 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
If I have no free will then there can be no fault in my rejection of what you claim is the true Gospel since my rejection is the will of God. On the other hand, have you given any thought to the possibility that, despite your belief to the contrary, God has rejected you yourself?

As to the existence of free will:

Behold I set forth in your sight this day a blessing and a curse: A blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: A curse, if you obey not the commandments of the Lord your. God, but revolt from the way which now I shew you, and walk after strange gods which you know not.
Deut. 11:26-28

If there is no free will then there can be no obeying nor revolt since all our actions are by the will of God.

Consider that I have set before thee this day life and good, and on the other hand death and evil: That thou mayst love the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways, and keep his commandments and ceremonies and judgments, and thou mayst live, and he may multiply thee, and bless thee in the land, which thou shalt go in to possess. But if thy heart be turned away, so that thou wilt not hear, and being deceived with error thou adore strange gods, and serve them: I foretell thee this day that thou shalt perish, and shalt remain but a short time in the land, to which thou shalt pass over the Jordan, and shalt go in to possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. CHOOSE therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live: And that thou mayst love the Lord thy God, and obey his voice, and adhere to him (for he is thy life, and the length of thy days,) that thou mayst dwell in the land, for which the Lord swore to thy fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that he would give it them.
Deut. 30:15-19

God has left the choice to us and His blessings, by His decree, are dependent of the choice we make.

But if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord,YOU HAVE YOUR CHOICE: CHOOSE this day that which pleaseth you, whom you would rather serve, whether the gods which your fathers served in Mesopotamia, or the gods of the Amorrhites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
Jos. 24:15

God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. He added his commandments and precepts. If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him.
Ecclus. 15:14-18

Blessed is the rich man that is found without blemish: and that hath not gone after gold, nor put his trust in money nor in treasures. Who is he, and we will praise him? for he hath done wonderful things in his life. Who hath been tried thereby, and made perfect, he shall have glory everlasting. He that could have transgressed, and hath not transgressed: and could do evil things, and hath not done them.
Ecclus. 31:8-10

As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezech. 33:11

God does not declare that He desires only some of the wicked to turn away from their sins but all. God is pleading that the wicked change but the choice remains theirs.

The Scriptures also declare that we can resist God's will:
Because I called, and you refused: I stretched out my hand, and there was none that regarded. You have despised all my counsel, and have neglected my reprehensions.
Prov. 1:24-25

I will number you in the sword, and you shall all fall by slaughter: because I called and you did not answer: I spoke, and you did not hear: and you did evil in my eyes, and YOU HAVE CHOSEN THE THINGS THAT DISPLEASE ME.
Is. 65:12

Wherefore I also will choose their mockeries, and will bring upon them the things they feared: because I called, and there was none that would answer; I have spoken, and they heard not; and they have done evil in my eyes, and have chosen the things that displease me.
Is. 66:4

And now, because you have done all these works, saith the Lord: and I have spoken to you rising up early, and speaking, and you have not heard: and I have called you, and you have not answered: I will do to this house, in which my name is called upon, and in which you trust, and to the places which I have given you and your fathers, as I did to Silo. And I will cast you away from before my face, as I have cast away all your brethren, the whole seed of Ephraim.
Jer. 7:14-15

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and THOU WOULDEST NOT?
Matt. 23:37

You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you also.
Acts 7:51

By his sovereign command, God has given us the gift of free will so that we can freely choose to respond to his grace and love him as an act of our will.
48 posted on 10/10/2011 5:26:32 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Dutchboy88
Here's a short course on the Sacraments, instituted by Christ to give grace.

The Sacraments: The Life of The Christian

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: The Life of The Christian
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: Opportunities of Grace
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Baptism: Initiation and Regeneration
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: Opportunities of Grace: Reconciliation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Confirmation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Healing/Anointing of the Sick
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Matrimony
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: [Holy] Orders

 

The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, The Sacraments
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Baptism
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Confirmation
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace: The Eucharist
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Penance

The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Anointing of the Sick
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Holy Orders

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 19: The Seven Sacraments
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 20: The Sacrament of Baptism

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 21: The Sacrament of Confirmation
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 22: The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist (Holy Communion)
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 23: The Sacrifice of the Mass
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 24: The Sacrament of Penance (Confession)
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 25: How to go to Confession

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 27: The Sacrament of Extreme Unction
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 28: The Sacrament of Holy Orders (Priesthood)
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 29: The Nature of Marriage
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 31: The Sacrament of Matrimony
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 32: How to have a Happy Marriage


49 posted on 10/10/2011 5:33:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Dutchboy88
I believe I left my desparation along with my religion, back at one of the organizations. You may wish to come out of the darkened cult, yourself...if you can. Come into the light of Jesus, alone...if He wills.

Maybe you have difficulty understanding English, so read this very slowly, or have someone that does read english explain it to you. I was a Cradle Catholic that was swayed by your false man made theology and left the Catholic Church. Reading the Bible, and Tim Lahaye and others like him led me right back into full communion with the Catholic Church. This was a decision based on quite a bit of studying and read the Bible cover to cover.

I will continue to pray for your soul.

50 posted on 10/10/2011 5:54:23 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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