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The first Episcopal church in the U.S. to become Catholic under...
Insight Scoop ^ | October 10, 2011 | Carl Olson

Posted on 10/10/2011 12:03:16 PM PDT by NYer

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To: Dutchboy88

You wrote:

“Unfortunately for Rome, there is none of the RCC sacerdotalism, mariolatry, ritualism, cultish behavior, ceremonial hoopla, hail marys, rosaries, penance, pergatory, indulgences, prada slippers, gold embroidered robes, etc. found in Paul’s writing. So, just read him through listening to his simple message of grace provided by Jesus, alone. You might swim back over the Tiber...if He permits.”

It’s always amazing to me how anti-Catholic bigots have to make things up out of thin air when they attack the Catholic Church. The Church has never practiced “mariolatry” but every anti-Catholic clearly practices stupidity.


151 posted on 10/15/2011 3:24:19 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Anti-Catholics can't debate so they lie.)
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To: vladimir998; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...

Evidently we don’t have to watch this side of the Tiber in the near future. If that changes, my FRiend, and you would like to visit about the true Gospel, the unmerited favor of Christ absent all of the paraphrenalia of Rome, let us know. Many of the believers around here would be happy to help you learn about the message that rocked the world...without having to kiss Rome’s ring. I’ll give a few of them a heads up to watch for your inquiries should you change your mind. Again, assuming Jesus permits.


152 posted on 10/15/2011 3:38:26 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

I don’t believe that you’re a believer. When I see the rank dishonesty posted by anti-Catholics, it makes it painfully obvious they are not believers, or at the very least believers not able to share much truth with anyone even if they did become fortunate to finally discover what the truth is.


153 posted on 10/15/2011 3:41:10 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Anti-Catholics lie.)
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To: vladimir998
"I don’t believe that you’re a believer."

I don't doubt this a bit. It seems certain (although I do not know your mind) that you sincerely believe that the Roman cult is the true organization founded by Jesus. Had its doctrines aligned with the Scriptures, you might have a point. Sadly, that is not the case. However, there is hope in Jesus, alone. He can rescue even the most entrapped individuals. No groups, just individuals. He might have you in His sights. If so, you will be dragged into His kingdom and you will find the blessed hope of Him, alone. No Rome, no org., no trappings...just Him.

154 posted on 10/15/2011 3:49:01 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: vladimir998; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


155 posted on 10/15/2011 3:54:17 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Dutchboy88

You wrote:

” don’t doubt this a bit. It seems certain (although I do not know your mind) that you sincerely believe that the Roman cult is the true organization founded by Jesus.”

Jesus founded the Catholic Church. It does not surprise me that a non-believer like you would accuse Jesus of starting a Roman cult.

“Had its doctrines aligned with the Scriptures, you might have a point. Sadly, that is not the case. However, there is hope in Jesus, alone. He can rescue even the most entrapped individuals.”

I hope He rescues you. Clearly that has not happened yet.

“No groups, just individuals. He might have you in His sights.”

He got me many years ago. That’s why I am not a Protestant.

“If so, you will be dragged into His kingdom and you will find the blessed hope of Him, alone.”

I won’t dragged anywhere by God. He doesn’t do that to those whom He wants to love Him freely.

“No Rome, no org., no trappings...just Him.”

I hope one day you come to believe in Christ rather than just attacking His Church and apparently making things up out of thin air.


156 posted on 10/15/2011 4:03:38 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Anti-Catholics have to lie. Notice how the anti-Catholic lies?)
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To: vladimir998; Dutchboy88

Hey Dutchboy88, what exactly do you think a “Hail Mary” is?


157 posted on 10/15/2011 4:19:10 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Dutchboy88

You said, “No groups, just individuals.”

With all due respect, Jesus is the Son of God. He can do anything He pleases. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone on the earth may say otherwise. It is literally His world, along with being His universe.

Likewise, you said, “He can rescue even the most entrapped individuals.” Very true. Those people must then exercise their free will, avoiding sin, and doing the Lord’s will, so that, in addition we may know Him, love Him, and serve Him both in this world and in the next.

You can disagree with and dislike all kinds of things in this life. Here are a few: The Incarnation Happened. Then, He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, formed a church, the Catholic Church, to save souls. That doesn’t mean you have to like it. Even so, I sincerely hope and pray that someday, you do, and that you join. It’s obvious that care about the Lord. I’d like it that you should be saved. I do not say this to make you think that I judge you. I do not. I am incapable of doing that. That role belongs to Our Lord. It does mean that when I say I will pray for your salvation, I truly mean it. No idle boast. In charity and truth, after I post this. God bless you, and all here.


158 posted on 10/15/2011 4:54:25 PM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: Salvation

Salvation you have the best link list for every occasion.

Love it! :-D


159 posted on 10/15/2011 7:07:01 PM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (Catholic, Easter vigil 2008)
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To: Dutchboy88

Hey Dutchboy88, what exactly do you think a “Hail Mary” is?


160 posted on 10/15/2011 8:24:02 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: vladimir998; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy

I met Protestant believers. My wife was one. I went to Bible studies with Protestant believers. I saw a Calvinist pastor break down and cry at his pulpit in loving awe at the sound of the Gospel. I am a better Catholic thanks to them.

The professional anti-Catholics who don’t know their own faith, let alone the True Faith of the Catholic Church are a disgrace to their own confession. Let us grow in charity.


161 posted on 10/15/2011 8:47:07 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: vladimir998; Dutchboy88
Jesus founded the Catholic Church. It does not surprise me that a non-believer like you would accuse Jesus of starting a Roman cult.

I haven't followed this conversation but this statement was rather curious and in need of correction:

1) Our Lord Jesus founded the church-not Catholic Church. I am sure that you would agree that He would not wish to be associated with those who hoard vast amount of wealth in vaults or see his ministers of the gospel living in palaces while preaching the need to erase poverty to the masses. This, my friend, sounds like the Democrats.

2) I'm a bit surprise to see a Catholic admit that our Lord Jesus founded the church and not Peter. Perhaps this was a clerical error or oversight.

3) As far as Dutchboy's salvation is concerned, rarely can we tell if others are saved or not. We can, according to the gospel, look after our own salvation but have no idea of the status of others. Catholics tend to have this exactly backwards (or perhaps sideways). They will tell you that they don't know who is saved except in rare exceptions of those saints they're sure popped up on a Post Toasty or made Aunt Myrtle's warts go away. Catholics will also tell you that if you follow all the various "steps" such as confession, baptism, receiving grace through communion, etc, then you are guarantee (well-maybe) a seat in the kingdom. But, as a footnote, I noted that rarely can you tell if another is saved. I'm sure that you will take great comfort in noting that our friend Dutchboy exhibits all the characteristics of salvation; which is to believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, and confess with your lips that God raised Him from the dead. If the angels of heaven have rejoiced can we do no less?

4) In regards to Jesus starting a Roman cult, the truth of the matter is that God is in complete and utter control of all things. We are a stubborn people who fail God constantly. Cults are raised up by God to help show us the follies of our ways and the error of our doctrine. I would refer you to Leviticus 18-20 where God specifically warns the people of Israel not to sacrifice their children to Molech. Yet by the time they got to Solomon, Solomon built a splendid temple to Molech for that very purpose (1 King 11:7). Solomon couldn't see the errors or simply wished to ignore them even though God had warned him through His scriptures; much to his detriment. We are warned to measure everything against scripture. There is not much difference from the Roman Catholic Church introduction of extra supporting writings then the Book of Mormonism or the Jehovah Witnesses' books. One only hopes that they learn the lesson that Solomon failed to grasp.

162 posted on 10/16/2011 3:07:08 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: djrakowski
I’ve often wondered why folks like Dutchboy88 think comments like these make their sects more attractive than the alternatives.

Actually, I hope they continue to act just like they do.

163 posted on 10/16/2011 3:15:04 AM PDT by Hacksaw (I don't hate Mormons. Is that okay?)
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To: djrakowski
I’ve often wondered why folks like Dutchboy88 think comments like these make their sects more attractive than the alternatives.

Actually, I hope they continue to act just like they do.

164 posted on 10/16/2011 3:15:28 AM PDT by Hacksaw (I don't hate Mormons. Is that okay?)
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To: djrakowski
I’ve often wondered why folks like Dutchboy88 think comments like these make their sects more attractive than the alternatives.

Actually, I hope they continue to act just like they do.

165 posted on 10/16/2011 3:15:28 AM PDT by Hacksaw (I don't hate Mormons. Is that okay?)
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To: NYer
...but still treasures aspects of Anglican ritual, such as kneeling to receive Communion.

How sad that they would have to worry about losing this. Sigh.

166 posted on 10/16/2011 3:17:21 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Salvation

To your list add simple me. God Bless you.


167 posted on 10/16/2011 3:32:10 AM PDT by AmericaUnite (Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. John Ch 8)
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To: HarleyD

You wrote:

“1) Our Lord Jesus founded the church-not Catholic Church.”

No. The Church Christ founded is the Catholic Church.

“2) I’m a bit surprise to see a Catholic admit that our Lord Jesus founded the church and not Peter. Perhaps this was a clerical error or oversight.”

Nope. And I have never seen otherwise. I have never seen a Catholic say or write that Peter FOUNDED the Church. Catholics often say - correctly - that it was founded on Peter or handed to him so to speak. But I have never seen a Catholic say Peter founded the Church. I have seen Catholics say - correctlt - that Peter founded the Church IN Rome along with Paul.

“3) As far as Dutchboy’s salvation is concerned, rarely can we tell if others are saved or not.”

I said nothing about salvation. You are conflating two entirely different issues - which Protestants are wont to do with those issues.

“There is not much difference from the Roman Catholic Church introduction of extra supporting writings then the Book of Mormonism or the Jehovah Witnesses’ books.”

That’s an incredibly ignorant statement. Joseph Smith invented new books and declared them scriptures. All the Catholic Church did was take scriptures from the Jews and keep them. The Deuterocanonicals were used by Jews. Protestants now often admit this.

http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2003/05/dead-sea-scrolls-and-deuterocanonical.html#!/2003/05/dead-sea-scrolls-and-deuterocanonical.html


168 posted on 10/16/2011 4:51:24 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Anti-Catholics have to lie. Notice how the anti-Catholic lies?)
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To: vladimir998; Dutchboy88
I said nothing about salvation. You are conflating two entirely different issues - which Protestants are wont to do with those issues.

From your post 156 to Dutchboy:

It does not surprise me that a non-believer like you...He can rescue even the most entrapped individuals. I hope He rescues you. Clearly that has not happened yet.

It makes all the rest of your statements suspect.

169 posted on 10/16/2011 5:28:30 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

You wrote:

“From your post 156 to Dutchboy:”

Which shows I said nothing about salvation. Your heresy is making you see things that are not there.

“It makes all the rest of your statements suspect.”

Nope. It just means your heresy is making you see things that are not even there.


170 posted on 10/16/2011 5:35:40 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Anti-Catholics have to lie. Notice how the anti-Catholic lies?)
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To: HarleyD; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; ...
You are conflating two entirely different issues - which Protestants are wont to do with those issues.
Of course they do. Often they hold to the heretical belief "Once Saved, Always Saved" and sometimes the predestination theory of the "elect" and in those odd heresies the "actual" Church is simply those who are saved. That is why some of them grudgingly "admit" some Catholics may be "saved".

They also misunderstand the hierarchy of worship, having rejected the highest form of Worship, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, they conflate intercessory prayers TO the Saints and Mary as if we were praying to them as Gods. Since, in their heretical world, worship and prayer are the same, they cannot imagine why we hold to the ancient and Traditional beliefs given to us by Our Lord and His Apostles and the Apostolic Succession.

171 posted on 10/16/2011 7:31:52 AM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: sayuncledave; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...
"Those people must then exercise their free will, avoiding sin, and doing the Lord’s will, so that, in addition we may know Him, love Him, and serve Him both in this world and in the next.

You can disagree with and dislike all kinds of things in this life. Here are a few: The Incarnation Happened. Then, He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, formed a church, the Catholic Church, to save souls. That doesn’t mean you have to like it. Even so, I sincerely hope and pray that someday, you do, and that you join. It’s obvious that care about the Lord. I’d like it that you should be saved. I do not say this to make you think that I judge you. I do not.

I appreciate that, and I certainly take it that you are not judging (condemning) me. The sincerity in your post is evident.

The part that I would point out is that discussion is not about "disliking" anything. Perhaps my ill-chosen words sounded as though my concern is about liking or disliking something. But, that is not the case. This is about whether something is true or false.

Although there are many things I dislike about the Roman church, if it appeared as though their doctrines aligned with Scripture, I would bend the knee and acknowledge that. Unfortunately, the organization, like many (or perhaps most) organizations, just does not comport with Scripture.

For example, the Jews were cajoled, ordered, offered, threatened by God to exercise their wills to follow Him in obedience and integrity. God made the demands perfectly clear and told them to choose Him over their rebellion. Some from your organization have carefully pointed this out. These FReepers have heard, ostensibly from the authorities of Rome, that the demand to choose implies the ability to choose.

What is missed by this claim is that as one continues to read the story in the OT, it becomes patently clear that the Jews did not do this and could not have because they lacked the equipment on board sufficient to comply. And, the prophets note that this dilemma is due to God's operation.

Notice, Is. 63:17

Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways, and harden our hearts from fearing Thee?

Is 64:7

And there is no one who calls on Thy name, who arouses himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou has hidden Thy face from us, and has delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

Prov. 16:9

The mind of man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps.

You see, if one understands "free will" to be the operation of man's choices unaided, unguided, unmangaged by God, then one collides with Scriptural descriptions of something slightly different going on. Evidently, God, being God, is managing all aspects of His universe...including us.

But, this idea is usually not welcome because it is argued that it makes us puppets, or God guilty of our sin, or both. However, the genius of God is that He can do this as the transcendent Holy One of Israel and we cannot "feel" it. And, according to Paul, this still makes us guilty, God innocent, and us stuck in the hands of the potter. Rom. 9:16ff "So then it does not depend on the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God who has mercy. And He will have mercy on some and harden some. You will ask me, 'How then can He still find fault, for who resists His will?'"

Paul's answer? Too bad for us. That is the way things are. Like you said, I may disagree with or dislike this principle...but that does not change it from being true. The same thing applies to the Roman church. Since it will not acknowledge that God, not man, is controlling all wills in the universe, the organization stands outside of the biblically revealed truth of the Gospel.

Instead, Rome wants to claim the "keys" to the kingdom, an idea it has promoted in itself. No one else believes that Rome was the object of this statement...only Rome. Read the passage for yourself (Matt. 16) and ask, honestly, where is the Roman group? It is not even contemplated. And did not seize power for at least 200 years.

So, if the Scriptures tell us that, yes, God is demanding that you change, but then tell us that we may not change unless He allows, we are left to harmonize these two statements. If the second subsumes the first, then the demand to change is simply conditioned by whether He allows you. But, Rome is unwilling acknowledge that "free will" is a manufactured idea. Even this unwillingness, however, is because God is not giving them eyes to see. And, that is why we believers in Christ, alone, reject Rome. Not because we do not like her, but because she embraces error.

172 posted on 10/17/2011 10:35:38 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: HarleyD

Very, very good words, Harley.


173 posted on 10/17/2011 10:44:54 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: narses; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; Dutchboy88
Often they hold to the heretical belief "Once Saved, Always Saved" and sometimes the predestination theory of the "elect"

That is an excellent point. OSAS is a flawed Protestant doctrine built upon the errors of Rome's Palegius heresy. Unfortunately, as you rightfully point out, many Protestants have fallen for this grievous error. I would point our Protestant brethren to the following confession:

Contrary to the Catholic work oriented belief, Protestants believe there is nothing you can do to work on your salvation. Your salvation is a gift given from God and God will keep you, working with you patiently as a loving Father guiding His children. At time those children may fall into sin and despair, but nothing will separate us from the love the Father has bestowed upon us. There is nothing we had to do for our salvation and there is nothing that we have to do to maintain our salvation. God does it all.

Most Protestants understand these principles although they have their doctrine skewed by years of listening to Rome's work based errors. Feeling people need to go to confession, take grace, do penitence, pray the Rosary, etc., is nothing more than reducing Christianity down to religion with ceremonial steps to achieve the goal of salvation.

This was certainly not the view given to us by Our Lord.

I suspect this exchange is lost on Catholics.
174 posted on 10/17/2011 4:56:44 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; narses; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; ...
Just a small point of clarification in different salvation structures.

1) Catholics (and some Protestants) believe that once a person is saved they must maintain that gift given to them. There is a possibility that you could lose your salvation.

2) The "Once Saved Always Saved" Protestants look at salvation as a fix point of salvation. After that people are "free to choice" which way they want to go.

3) The "Perseverance of the Saints" Protestants believe that God saved you and God will keep you. And when you go off the beaten path, God will chasten and hasten you to either help you find your way or will call you home. But you will never be lost from the love of God who saved you in your most vilest state.

The first two views are based upon the egregious heresy of "free will"; one is capable of making correct and good choices. The last view is based upon an understanding that man with his sinful nature is wholly reliant upon the grace and mercy of God to guide us through this life.

It is an error and sin to think that man is ever capable of willfully choosing anything pleasing of God.

175 posted on 10/17/2011 5:24:01 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
"The first two views are based upon the egregious heresy of "free will"; one is capable of making correct and good choices. The last view is based upon an understanding that man with his sinful nature is wholly reliant upon the grace and mercy of God to guide us through this life.

It is an error and sin to think that man is ever capable of willfully choosing anything pleasing of God.

Just terrific stuff here, Harley. Thanks.

176 posted on 10/18/2011 10:40:35 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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