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The first Episcopal church in the U.S. to become Catholic under...
Insight Scoop ^ | October 10, 2011 | Carl Olson

Posted on 10/10/2011 12:03:16 PM PDT by NYer

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To: Dutchboy88
Some humans (being managed like dishes) are.

Which makes absolutely no difference to what they "can" do based on your exhortations, which is absolutely ... nothing. Full determinism, as I said, puts all "can" squarely on God's shoulders. You would be more self-consistent to pray that God would lead me out of Catholicism. Even that isn't very self-consistent.

Now go read it and tell me you see nothing there.

I assume you're talking about 6:37-39?

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. ... 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing

Nobody's talking about Jesus losing anyone of those the Father has given him. God foresees who will reprobate himself, and who will not, and he doesn't give Jesus any reprobates.

That has nothing to do with whether or not reprobation is the free choice of the reprobate, or is conditional on those free choices, or anything like that. (God foresees all of those free choices, too, but does so without coercing them.)

Romans 9:16ff

The context of which concerns nations, not specific individuals, and consists of Paul reasoning out what God could be doing that would cause him to leave Israel out in the cold while offering salvation to the Gentiles.

But that leads me back to an error you made in an earlier post, confusing what God can do with what God actually does do. There is no question that God is capable of completely determining every thought I have and every action I take. That's not what the argument is. The argument is over what he actually does do, most of the time.

Did the father in the Parable of the Prodigal Son drive his son away, or did he merely permit him to leave?

51 posted on 10/10/2011 6:27:03 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: NYer; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; YellowRoseofTx; ..
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


52 posted on 10/10/2011 6:34:21 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: NYer

The Holy Spirit moves according to His will. His will be done. Welcome home dear friends.


53 posted on 10/10/2011 6:38:24 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" ~ Ronald Wilson Reagan)
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To: djrakowski

K


54 posted on 10/10/2011 6:47:45 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: Dutchboy88

Do you believe God saves men against their own will? Does God force men to be saved?


55 posted on 10/10/2011 9:16:00 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: djrakowski

Unfortunately, as Christ said, you will be persecuted for your choosing Him. We find it on FR and in real life.


56 posted on 10/10/2011 11:26:46 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: CA Conservative
1 Tim clearly states that first the bishop must be blameless. He should be at most a husband of one wife (not multiple wives) -- there is no criteria that if he does not have a wife its bad, also what happens if the bishop is a widow? No, 1 Tim 3:2 is not negated -- also look at this in contrast to 1 tim 3:12 "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife" -- in contrast to 1 tim 3:2 "a bishop then must be blameless , the husband of..."

1 tim 3:4 says One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; -- so, if his children as unruly and not in subjection, should he then resign?

57 posted on 10/10/2011 11:57:29 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: djrakowski; verga; netmilsmom
I’ve often wondered why folks like Dutchboy88 think comments like these make their sects more attractive than the alternatives. “Gee, I know a great way to make converts... I’ll start insulting everyone who disagrees with me. Yeah, THAT’s the ticket!”

there seem to be a lot of these non-Catholic posters who think that way -- sad little people.

58 posted on 10/11/2011 1:52:33 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Petrosius
If we have no free will to respond to the grace of God and all is predetermined by God’s election, then why do you even bother to convince anyone of what you believe is the truth? After all, if I do not have free will what I believe or do not believe is not my choice and has been predetermined by God.

Because they believe that they are an elite Brahmin caste and they like to sneer -- completely unChristian...

59 posted on 10/11/2011 1:53:27 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: verga; Salvation
verga: I left for a while and then managed to get my head out of my butt by reading the Bible and came Back to the Pillar and Foundation of truth: the Catholic Church

And stronger for it, brother/sister in Christ!

60 posted on 10/11/2011 1:55:16 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: vladimir998; Dutchboy88

That’s the big error in the alvinist POV: God’s not satisfied with damning a person before the beginning of creation, but after the person is dead, he’d have to resurrect him and tell him, “I’m going to punish you in hell forever because you perfectly—though you had no choice—followed the plan I set out for you since before the beginning of the world, all for my good pleasure and greater glory.” That’s just perverse piling on. And again we have to ask, “Glory before whom?” If all is created by God and determined by God, then there is no other “who” before whom glory, to whatever degree, is to be manifest and no context within which glory would even have any meaning. The whole thing is nothing more than an audience of one, the sound of that one’s hands clapping. Even Zen makes more sense than that.


61 posted on 10/11/2011 1:57:48 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: vladimir998; Dutchboy88
In fact, these guys do not believe in the God of Christianity. With their idea of limited atonement, they believe in a Robot-Maker in the sky, not God.

They believe they are robots made by a robot-maker that creates some robots evil and creates others "good" and programs the evil to do evil and the good to do good.

in fact, they don't even "believe in" or "love" the robotmaker -- they are programmed to do some things -- evil and good.

Then, at the end of times, those with the Brahmin elite elect stamp go to heaven and the others, programmed to do evil by the robotmaker go to eternal torment

62 posted on 10/11/2011 2:02:30 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: vladimir998; Dutchboy88

In fact, their entire philosophy of pre-programming means that they do not believe in the salvation of Christ — there was no need for this in their pre-programmed philosophy — it was just the sadistic tendencies of the robot-maker they worship. They are not Christian


63 posted on 10/11/2011 2:04:41 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Salvation

I hope I can down the road, with one problem knee.


64 posted on 10/11/2011 3:11:31 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Cronos

My point is that the Catholic Church adds a requirement (that a bishop cannot be married) that is not found in scripture. I am not saying scripture requires that a bishop be married, but Paul clearly anticipated that many would be.

As I said, the Catholic Church can make whatever rules it likes for its clergy - as long as it doesn’t try to claim scriptural authority for this one, I don’t care.


65 posted on 10/11/2011 7:06:53 AM PDT by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: Campion
"I assume you're talking about 6:37-39?"

No. Read on. John 6:43, 44 "Jesus answered and said to them, 'Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day." 6:64, 65 " 'But there are some of you who do not believe' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.'" This does have to do with those being elect before the foundation of the world.

Your error is that you view God as a very big man. Smart, adaptive, creative...but a large man. He is not that, but the Catholic Church has revised man's role into godlike creatures. That is why they pray to men and women. They view them as equals to God. The Scriptures disagree. That, however, does not stop Rome. Rome has authority over all...or so it thinks. Lucifer, too, was self-deceived.

Think carefully about your argument. If men were really free, then God could not possibly know what it is that they were going to do tomorrow. Why not? Because they may change their minds and act apart from Him. If He knows what will happen tomorrow, then those events are fixed and unchangeable. The Scriptures state that they are fixed because He is managing their occurrence. Even the roll of the dice.

That this bothers Rome is inconsequential. They are bothered by almost anything that paints them as the buffoons they are. They strain to supplant God at every turn. Nevertheless, there is a God of Heaven and Earth, the Holy One of Israel, who directs all, bringing calamity when necessary and rescue to those whom He chooses.

66 posted on 10/11/2011 8:13:53 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: vladimir998
"Do you believe God saves men against their own will? Does God force men to be saved?"

This is an interesting couple of questions. Loaded, to be sure, but interesting nonetheless.

The first: Absolutely no. What the Scriptures describe is that God manages, or perhaps manipulates, the will of men to turn toward Him. They begin as "enemies" of God, which is a tragic but truthful situation. He, out of the counsel of His will, determines to extend mercy and adopt some of them. To those whom He adopts, His Spirit begins to soften their hearts and they begin to want Him...deeply.

Prior to this regeneration, faith is not possible and no man is actually seeking God irrespective of what he believes. This is Paul's argument from Scripture (Rom. 3:10ff: There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks for God.) Once regenerated, the man's will is maneuvered to want Christ, to want rescue, to want forgiveness. The Holy Spirit invades his life and amplifies these experiences and causes the man to grow in this grace and understanding.

The second: Does this "force" men to be saved? Well, clearly if a man is at emnity with God to begin with, the action upon his soul is not in accord with his will when this begins. It is common to hear that prevenient grace (enough for anyone to respond) has been shed upon men, but this is not the biblical view. Only specific grace is sufficient to respond just as Acts 13:48 describes.

This may seem like a "forcing" and perhaps it is. I am grateful then that God forces it, if that is what is happening. Us blockheaded humans don't have the equipment on board to get out of the street, so we are grateful when our Heavenly Father reaches out and drags us to Himself. And, our job is to collect all of the data describing this process into a cohesive message. Rome's message does not comport with all the data.

The last few posts full of ranting about this view being Brahman (Hindu?) or some kind of automaton experience are curious.

67 posted on 10/11/2011 8:42:08 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Interesting.

No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him
That's the one-verse refutation of semi-Pelagianism, which I already explained is not Catholic belief.

Your error is that you view God as a very big man.

Actually, I think that's your error, when you write stuff like this:

If men were really free, then God could not possibly know what it is that they were going to do tomorrow.

God is outside time. He is supreme over time. He is Lord over time; he created time out of nothing. He sees tomorrow just as perfectly as he sees today and yesterday. How he intervenes in it is completely up to him.

If He knows what will happen tomorrow, then those events are fixed and unchangeable.

"Unchangeable" is a nonsensical term in this context. Change implies progression in time. If God is outside of time, then change is meaningless for him. He sees present, and past, and future, and is free to allow us to be as free as he likes. If I'm going to change my mind, he sees that. He can see it without causing it, or he can cause it, as he so pleases.

That you do not grant him that freedom, ironically, means that you are cutting God down to size, despite your slander:

They view them as equals to God.

Nothing could be remotely further from the truth.

68 posted on 10/11/2011 9:50:55 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Campion
"How he intervenes in it is completely up to him."

Absolutely true. And He has chosen to manage every single detail.

Is. 45:7 - The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.

Prov. 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.

Prov. 21:1 - The king's heart is like a channel of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever He wishes.

Exodus 7:2,3 - "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Free will? Randomness? Chance? ...LOL

You are putty in His hands, just as we all are. The God of the Bible is so much in control of His universe, as testified to in His Scriptures, that every detail is managed by Him. However, Rome is so darkened in the course of their own minds that they war with Him...but even this is managed by God.

I am directed to encourage you to escape their clutches...if you can.

69 posted on 10/11/2011 11:36:23 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

You wrote:

“To those whom He adopts, His Spirit begins to soften their hearts and they begin to want Him...deeply.”

How is that not man cooperating with God?

Prevenient grace does not save men. Thus, to say that because it exists, it “may seem like a “forcing” and perhaps it is” is just crazy and has nothing to do with how God works. God calls man. He forces no man to be saved. If we resist God we succeed in our own destruction. We must cooperate with Him to be saved.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COOPERAT.htm


70 posted on 10/11/2011 4:30:47 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Dutchboy88

To what end are you directed to encourage anyone to leave the “clutches” (LOL - as if we’re not free to leave at any time) of the Catholic Church? If it is as you say, then your words are utterly incapable of affecting a change in anyone that would lead to what you regard as a genuine Christian conversion.

Too, what makes you so certain that you belong to the exclusive club of God’s chosen? What guarantee do you have that you’ll persevere to the end?

What do you say when you evangelize? “I’m compelled to share the Gospel, but it may not matter. You could be one of those who’ve been preselected by God for damnation.”

If that’s the true Gospel, I want no part of it.


71 posted on 10/11/2011 5:02:26 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski
"To what end are you directed to encourage anyone to leave the “clutches” (LOL - as if we’re not free to leave at any time) of the Catholic Church? If it is as you say, then your words are utterly incapable of affecting a change in anyone that would lead to what you regard as a genuine Christian conversion.

We are encouraged to be ready in season and out of season to reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction. IITim 4:2. I am reproving you, rebuking you right now. That God may or may not grant you eyes to see and ears to hear is up to Him. And, you are correct, my words are not the thing effecting change...only God does that. The words may be used or may not be used.

"Too, what makes you so certain that you belong to the exclusive club of God’s chosen? What guarantee do you have that you’ll persevere to the end?

The term "certain" is not really something we worry about. We find the trace elements of the faith described in the Scriptures, namely the abandonment of reliance upon anything but the unmerited favor of Christ, to be sufficient. I trust you are not relying upon a group of ceremonies and enrollment on an Italian membership list to be "certainty" for your eternal destination...are you?

"What do you say when you evangelize? “I’m compelled to share the Gospel, but it may not matter. You could be one of those who’ve been preselected by God for damnation.”

What I say is what I am saying right now. Jesus the Nazarene, the Messiah of Israel, is the Living God who came to fulfill the Law and rescue those whom the Father has given Him. If you sense that your brokenness is so complete as to render you hopeless and helpless, unless He reaches to you, then you may be among those for whom this adoption is reserved. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection accomplishes two important objectives for His chosen:

1. It forgives once and for all time your sins AND the fact that you are built with a sinful nature that will continue to sin. There are no ceremonies, no rituals, no incantations, no confessions, no anything that can induce Him to do this. No wafers, no wine can recreate this sacrificial event. Should Jesus determine to do this for you, you will no longer be guilty in the eyes of God.

2. It clothes you in His righteousness. It would not be enough for you to just be forgiven, as good as that would be. In order to stand before the Father, we must be holy. Since we do not possess that, Christ's holiness is what a believer must be wrapped in to make them presentable. The time will come in heaven when He remakes you into a holy creature, but we will need Christ's holiness until that happens.

If you want this, and you are among the elect, then Christ has regenerated you imbuing you with faith. You are being saved. You will receive His Holy Spirit as downpayment of the continual and future care He intends to provide you. And ultimately you will see life like you have never known when you leave this earthly tent.

There are no mediators between you and Christ, no alter christus, no "priests" in the sense the Roman church wishes to claim. Every believer is a "priest" in that they can deliver words to other people. But, only God determines whether those will effect a change and only God effects the change.

There is no penance to perform, there is no pergatory to dread, there is no anything, but Christ. Grace really is "unmerited favor", a gift given to those God decides to rescue. If you find this happening in you, then fellowship with other believers regularly to understand how this message is throughout the Scriptures. You will grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ and look forward to the hope laid up for us. Enjoy your Savior.

That is what I say when I speak to those asking...and you asked. Thus, I am evangelizing you right now. Does this ring true? Perhaps you are among the elect and will abandon the paganized, ritualistic, sacerdotalism and ceremony of Rome and return to the simple fellowship with other believers.

"If that’s the true Gospel, I want no part of it.

Perhaps not.

72 posted on 10/12/2011 8:45:14 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; Cronos; verga; Hieronymus; Salvation; Campion; Petrosius; vladimir998
Such a strange post... It's hard to determine where to begin my response.

We are encouraged to be ready in season and out of season to reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction. IITim 4:2. I am reproving you, rebuking you right now. That God may or may not grant you eyes to see and ears to hear is up to Him. The words may be used or may not be used.

Which is to say, that you're commanded to be ready to do something that has absolutely no impact? That God commands you to perform empty actions as a mere sign of obedience?

I trust you are not relying upon a group of ceremonies and enrollment on an Italian membership list to be "certainty" for your eternal destination...are you?

I'm rolling my eyes... no Catholic trusts in rituals, as though mere external actions can effect a conversion of the heart and a turning toward Him in repentance to have our sins forgiven. Many, many previous answers by fellow Catholics have made it clear that we rely solely upon the unmerited favor of Our Lord who calls us out of His goodness to respond to Him in obedience for the salvation of our souls. What sort of God "wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2:4) but then decides - positively wills vs. permits - that there will be some who have absolutely no chance of being saved? What a strange, capricious God - it almost reminds me of the false god of Islam, who is a slave-master rather than the loving Father described to us in sacred scripture.

And what sort of God would make a covenant that was MORE restrictive than the one it replaces? What sort of God would determine that all male children had the right to be members of the household of God through the ritual observance of circumcision, and then, while seemingly broadening the covenant to worldwide scope, suddenly reveal that there were some who would never, by His will, be permitted to taste the fruits of that covenant?

That is what I say when I speak to those asking...and you asked. Thus, I am evangelizing you right now. Does this ring true? Perhaps you are among the elect and will abandon the paganized, ritualistic, sacerdotalism and ceremony of Rome and return to the simple fellowship with other believers.

But again, your words will have no impact either way, right? If I'm set aside to one day repent and see the gospel as you describe it (a twisted, cruel, capricious gospel at that), then you're wasting your words evangelizing at all. You're merely robotically going about your pre-programmed duty, bouncing words off of myself and my fellow Catholics who may or may not be pre-programmed to join you in your strange version of heaven in which some are predestined to hell before ever having the chance to understand, repent, accept, love and obey Our Lord.

To folks like you (and I've encountered TONS of folks like you since going public with my conversion), it doesn't matter that I've been able to rid myself of sins that I'd been committing my entire life, or that I'm more devoted to the reading of sacred scripture and daily prayer, or that I'm more committed to serving my fellow Christians through teaching and pro-life ministry, than I ever was before I left evangelical Protestantism. I don't believe in the monstrous, anti-Biblical concept of double-predestination, or the foundational error of sola scriptura on which you base your twisted view of God and salvation history, and thus I'm probably condemned. And there's nothing I can do about it, and nothing you can do about it, and nothing anyone else can do about it.

And we're the ones who have something to escape? Please.

73 posted on 10/12/2011 9:13:58 AM PDT by djrakowski
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To: vladimir998
“To those whom He adopts, His Spirit begins to soften their hearts and they begin to want Him...deeply.” How is that not man cooperating with God?

The difference is between regeneration preceding faith and faith commencing regeneration. If you carefully read what I wrote you will notice that men do cooperate with God...once they are saved. Your system requires men to cooperate with God in order to be saved. "We must cooperate with Him to be saved."

Notice the order. This is a monumental difference just as Luke wrote about in Acts 13:48. The Roman system is unbiblical. Also, notice, that if regeneration precedes faith the first move is from God, not men. Recall Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. No cooperation, no confession, no ceremony was necessary for him to be laid hold of. He was simply knocked to the ground, blinded and told what was going to happen to him. Yes, Ananias, was sent to tell him more, lay hands on him, and baptize him, but Paul was rescued long before these things happened to him. He even notes that he learned he had been set aside from birth for such. Gal. 1:15 Choice? Not according to Paul.

And neither your organization nor any organization can induce salvation in another human being. Paul went around proclaiming forgiveness in the Name of Christ to find out who it was that God's Spirit was rescuing. He did not induce salvation in anyone. That the idea of men being able to take it or leave it is a misunderstanding that is not just resident in Rome. But, Rome is a great perpetrator of the error...an error they need, but an error nonetheless.

74 posted on 10/12/2011 10:15:27 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: djrakowski
"But again, your words will have no impact either way, right? If I'm set aside to one day repent and see the gospel as you describe it (a twisted, cruel, capricious gospel at that), then you're wasting your words evangelizing at all. You're merely robotically going about your pre-programmed duty, bouncing words off of myself and my fellow Catholics who may or may not be pre-programmed to join you in your strange version of heaven in which some are predestined to hell before ever having the chance to understand, repent, accept, love and obey Our Lord."

Well, it does not feel robotic to address the errors of your thinking. I simply echo Paul's words that, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If you wish to view this as strange, that is what you have been given.

"To folks like you (and I've encountered TONS of folks like you since going public with my conversion), it doesn't matter that I've been able to rid myself of sins that I'd been committing my entire life, or that I'm more devoted to the reading of sacred scripture and daily prayer, or that I'm more committed to serving my fellow Christians through teaching and pro-life ministry, than I ever was before I left evangelical Protestantism. I don't believe in the monstrous, anti-Biblical concept of double-predestination, or the foundational error of sola scriptura on which you base your twisted view of God and salvation history, and thus I'm probably condemned. And there's nothing I can do about it, and nothing you can do about it, and nothing anyone else can do about it."

Well, God can do something about...if He chooses. The question is not what you may like, but what the truth of the Scriptures actually sets out. If Paul's remarks about being held in the hands of God, and not yourself or an organization, make you uncomfortable it cannot be helped...at least by me.

75 posted on 10/12/2011 10:30:58 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
If Paul's remarks about being held in the hands of God, and not yourself or an organization, make you uncomfortable it cannot be helped...at least by me.

LOL! I love St. Paul's words, and they should make all of us uncomfortable, because they reveal us for what we really are. But I don't find your interpretation of St. Paul's words uncomfortable, because false interpretations of scripture shouldn't make anyone uncomfortable.

76 posted on 10/12/2011 10:34:49 AM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski
"LOL! I love St. Paul's words, and they should make all of us uncomfortable, because they reveal us for what we really are. But I don't find your interpretation of St. Paul's words uncomfortable, because false interpretations of scripture shouldn't make anyone uncomfortable."

Actually, if you are among the elect, then you are a "saint" along with Paul. Only the big organizations seem to add this appelation to certain folks. Real believers add it to every believer. But, could you be more specific about my misinterpretation?

77 posted on 10/12/2011 10:43:33 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Actually, if you are among the elect, then you are a "saint" along with Paul. Only the big organizations seem to add this appelation to certain folks. Real believers add it to every believer. But, could you be more specific about my misinterpretation?

First, we're aware that the elect are all "saints." There are those, also, who've led lives of exemplary sanctity who have been granted the title of Saint. Second, many others who are far more intelligent, articulate and well-read Catholics than myself have already given you the proper interpretations, and you've not proven yourself willing to do anything but preach at us (though you fully admit that your words are essentially meaningless, as they will have no impact on whether we decide to repent and accept the Gospel), so what good would it do?

78 posted on 10/12/2011 10:47:17 AM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski
"And what sort of God would make a covenant that was MORE restrictive than the one it replaces? What sort of God would determine that all male children had the right to be members of the household of God through the ritual observance of circumcision, and then, while seemingly broadening the covenant to worldwide scope, suddenly reveal that there were some who would never, by His will, be permitted to taste the fruits of that covenant?"

You have made a few remarks about the "strangeness" of my perspective(s), but this beyond the pale. If you think that this ritual (circumcision) is what made a person a Jew, rather than the descendancy from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then you, my FRiend, need to re-read the text. The sign did not make them Jews or part of His household. Their birth was the thing which made them Jews. And, notice they had no say in that birth, either.

Later, when Paul notes that the true Israel (the universal family of God, the assembly belonging to the First Born) is not the physical family of Israel, but those who have been rescued. And it does not depend on the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God who has mercy. And He will have mercy on some and harden some. Romans 9. Hmmm.

79 posted on 10/12/2011 10:52:19 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: djrakowski
"First, we're aware that the elect are all "saints." There are those, also, who've led lives of exemplary sanctity who have been granted the title of Saint. Second, many others who are far more intelligent, articulate and well-read Catholics than myself have already given you the proper interpretations, and you've not proven yourself willing to do anything but preach at us (though you fully admit that your words are essentially meaningless, as they will have no impact on whether we decide to repent and accept the Gospel), so what good would it do?"

A number of folks have discounted the words of Paul, apparently in an attempt to display some kind of superior authority for their "official" interpretation. Interestingly, none have actually addressed Paul's argument, an argument which defeats their dismissals. But, that is because, according to the text, their eyes are darkened and their ears are covered by God. If it does no good, that does not mean we are not to keep speaking. Perhaps you missed that part of my posts.

80 posted on 10/12/2011 11:02:24 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
If you think that this ritual (circumcision) is what made a person a Jew, rather than the descendancy from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then you, my FRiend, need to re-read the text. The sign did not make them Jews or part of His household. Their birth was the thing which made them Jews. And, notice they had no say in that birth, either.

And if they willfully refused to follow the law regarding circumcision, what happened?

If ritual means nothing, as you claim, then why are these passages in sacred scripture?

Mark 16:16 - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Acts 2:38 - "Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

1 Peter 3:21 - "This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. I is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Acts 22:16 - "Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’"

Colossians 2:12 - "You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

Baptism washes away sins. Can one be saved without forgiveness of sins? Are you sure that rituals do nothing and are completely meaningless when the scriptures we both accept as inspired command us to perform them?

Yes, the gospel you profess is very strange and contra-scriptural indeed.

81 posted on 10/12/2011 11:05:02 AM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski
"If ritual means nothing, as you claim, then why are these passages in sacred scripture?

Mark 16:16 - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Well, you may want to check your Bible, my FRiend. This passage is not in most of the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. It appears along with the snake handlers (is that going on in your group, also?) and the poison drinkers (please...).

"Acts 2:38 - "Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

"1 Peter 3:21 - "This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. I is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Peter is referring to a baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is not a water event removing dirt from the body, but the cry to God by a rescued believer, made possible through the resurrection of Jesus. Read it carefully.

"Acts 22:16 - "Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’"

No question, shortly after Pentecost a baptism like John's was conducted. But, as things move on in the story (go read the entire journal of Luke), baptism becomes more and more infrequent.

"Colossians 2:12 - "You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

Paul is, of course, referring to baptism in the Spirit. Do you actually think his words "...raised with him through faith..." means that what brought you up out of water was faith? A person lowers you into a pool and faith lifted your body out? I have observed many baptisms and never seen this work. The guy always has to lift the person out. Paul is describing what is going on as you are immersed into the Spirit, adopted into the family. When you are lowered into the Body of Christ, you are raised with a faith you never had before.

"Baptism washes away sins. Can one be saved without forgiveness of sins? Are you sure that rituals do nothing and are completely meaningless when the scriptures we both accept as inspired command us to perform them?

Your first remark is not demonstrated as true. But, certainly the answer to the first question is "no". If, however, you read the entire argument Paul is making, there is no question that grace, creating faith, is all that is needed to be saved. The result will be the forgiveness of sin. Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace you have been saved (not baptism) through faith, and that (faith/grace) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works (anything done by man), that no one should boast." Where is the ritual that saves again?

"Yes, the gospel you profess is very strange and contra-scriptural indeed.

You may wish to read the full message first, rather than listen to the party line...

82 posted on 10/12/2011 11:48:24 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Denying the plain words of scripture now? Mark 16:16 is in every single Bible I’ve ever read, including the ones I used as an evangelical (NIV and KJV included).

What other passages are we free to ignore as non-inspired?

Then you go on further to deny the plain words of scripture. This is our clue that you’re no longer to be taken seriously. Conversation over. Godspeed, FRiend.


83 posted on 10/12/2011 12:10:15 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski; verga; Hieronymus; Salvation; Campion; Petrosius; vladimir998
I'm rolling my eyes... no Catholic trusts in rituals, as though mere external actions can effect a conversion of the heart and a turning toward Him in repentance to have our sins forgiven

It is incredibly sad that they keep repeating lies and expect us to believe anything they say.

That's one of the vilest of that group -- the sad thing is that they have no real belief except that they hate us. Nothing else. No love for Christ, nothing.

84 posted on 10/12/2011 12:36:00 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos

Indeed. No single group has been nastier to me since my conversion than Reformed/Calvinists. I still wonder how this approach attracts anyone to their warped brand of Christianity.


85 posted on 10/12/2011 12:38:20 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski

that’s the absurdity of a Calvinist POV: God’s not satisfied with damning a person before the beginning of creation, but after the person is dead, he’d have to resurrect him and tell him, “I’m going to punish you in hell forever because you perfectly—though you had no choice—followed the plan I set out for you since before the beginning of the world, all for my good pleasure and greater glory.” That’s just perverse piling on. And again we have to ask, “Glory before whom?” If all is created by God and determined by God, then there is no other “who” before whom glory, to whatever degree, is to be manifest and no context within which glory would even have any meaning. The whole thing is nothing more than an audience of one, the sound of that one’s hands clapping. Even Zen makes more sense than that.


86 posted on 10/12/2011 12:40:07 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos

That’s exactly what I meant when I called Dutchboy88’s position strange... what sort of god would take delight in dividing us into groups of winners and losers, and setting up the system such that we had no control whatsoever over the group to which we belong? That’s a god who takes delight in cruelty, which is contrary to love.


87 posted on 10/12/2011 12:48:22 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: Cronos
And what about 2 Peter 3:9?

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

A god that doesn't permit the means for everyone to reach repentance doesn't really desire everyone's repentance, does he?

88 posted on 10/12/2011 12:52:19 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: djrakowski
"Denying the plain words of scripture now? Mark 16:16 is in every single Bible I’ve ever read, including the ones I used as an evangelical (NIV and KJV included).

What other passages are we free to ignore as non-inspired?"

Look carefully at the printed text. Most of the Bibles I own will bracket Mark 16:9 through 20 and state that the oldest mss. omit these verses. It is not me, my FRiend. I certainly don't want to ignore real Scripture. Just want to read real Scripture. Are you actually a snake handler?

Check also John 7:53 - 8:11. The so-called woman taken in sin is apparently an add-on to the real thing. I am looking at a Zondervan NIV and the margin says, "(The most reliable early manuscripts omit John 7:53 - 8:11)"

Then you go on further to deny the plain words of scripture. This is our clue that you’re no longer to be taken seriously. Conversation over. Godspeed, FRiend.

Far be it from me to deny the plain meaning of Scripture. I am simply following the argument of the writers and letting them tell us their story, the inspired (God-breathed) story, of redemption. Your system relies upon layers of men in pointy hats and bathrobes. Ours relies upon God, alone.

The conversation may be over, here. But, if God is pursuing you for your rescue, He will chase you to the ends of the earth. The Holy Spirit's wind blows where it will and no one can stop Him or resist His will. Grace to you, my FRiend.

89 posted on 10/12/2011 1:04:52 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Sure, all the Bibles I read include those footnotes as well. But do any of them say that the words are not inspired? Are the translators attempting to trick us, to see how Christian we really are, by throwing false teachings into the Bible and seeing whether we correctly reject them? You lose all credibility with posts like this one.

(and what the heck is with the multiple references to snake-handling? My father-in-law encountered snake-handling preachers in the back woods of Tennessee, and they most certainly weren’t Catholic, my FRiend)


90 posted on 10/12/2011 1:13:13 PM PDT by djrakowski
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To: Dutchboy88
If you think that this ritual (circumcision) is what made a person a Jew, rather than the descendancy from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then you, my FRiend, need to re-read the text.

Really, this is your story and you are going to stick to it!

You are the one that needs to do some re-Reading. Abraham was required to circumcise ALL of his males slaves as well. Were they descendents of Abraham? We don't know if the slaves were monotheistic, how does forced conversion fit in to your scheme?

91 posted on 10/12/2011 1:40:36 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: Dutchboy88; djrakowski
Well, you may want to check your Bible, my FRiend. This passage is not in most of the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. It appears along with the snake handlers (is that going on in your group, also?) and the poison drinkers (please...).

I also refer you to the Greek New Testament (Fourth revised edition) Aland and Metzger (I trust even you recognize the name of Bruce Metzger). You might also check out "The Complete Word study New Testament, Parallel interlinear) Translated by Spiros Zodhiates, a Ph.D. Native speaking Greek Protestant.

You really are not enforcing your argument with you complete lack of scholarship.

92 posted on 10/12/2011 1:49:09 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: verga

Go ask any Jew, the descendants of A,I,J are considered Israel (Jacob’s name change). The rest of your remark has no meaning.


93 posted on 10/12/2011 2:41:46 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: djrakowski
"(and what the heck is with the multiple references to snake-handling?"

You have selectively read the spurious passage you claim proves salvation by baptism. Snake handling is in there, along with drinking poison. I encourage you to read the entire passage and if you cling to part of it, then cling to all of it.

And, your last post said the conversation was over. More interest?

94 posted on 10/12/2011 2:47:25 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: verga

Well, Metzger simply revised the Nestle 1927 version and his 4th (’93) was reprinted without change from ‘75 version. The Nestle text we used in Greek class was ‘77. NIV used Nestle. So, now what? This has little to do with whether the oldest mss. exclude the Mark passage.


95 posted on 10/12/2011 2:58:18 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

You wrote:

“If you carefully read what I wrote you will notice that men do cooperate with God...once they are saved.”

If men are saved, then why would they need to cooperate? If you’re saved, it’s finished.

“Your system requires men to cooperate with God in order to be saved.”

God’s system requires men to cooperate with God to grow in love and obedience with or to Him.


96 posted on 10/12/2011 3:21:36 PM PDT by vladimir998 (To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant (or ignorant).)
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To: Dutchboy88
Go ask any Jew, the descendants of A,I,J are considered Israel (Jacob’s name change).

Just going by what YOU wrote, when the error ipointed out YOU change YOUR story.

The rest of your remark has no meaning.

Because YOU have no answer (Again).

97 posted on 10/12/2011 4:07:44 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: Dutchboy88
Well, Metzger simply revised the Nestle 1927 version and his 4th (’93) was reprinted without change from ‘75 version. The Nestle text we used in Greek class was ‘77. NIV used Nestle. So, now what? This has little to do with whether the oldest mss. exclude the Mark passage.

You are aware that it is BOTH versions i cited to you, and that proves your lack of scholarship

98 posted on 10/12/2011 4:10:07 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: vladimir998
"If men are saved, then why would they need to cooperate? If you’re saved, it’s finished."

Is this an actual question? Does Rome actually believed that when a man is saved he is finished? Please re read my post. I said, that, "...men do cooperate with God...once they are saved." That is a biblical position and may collide with Rome's view, but I trust that even they are not that far off the reservation. "God’s system requires men to cooperate with God to grow in love and obedience with or to Him."

You first said man is finished when he is saved. Now you say he is required to cooperate to grow. I do not disagree with this last remark. But, what we are discussing here is whether that cooperation is induced by the man, alone (free will unaided by anything outside the man), or by God's operation on his soul/spirit. The biblical position is that nothing occurs by way of spiritual growth until and unless God operates upon him. I Cor 3:7 "So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anythig, but God who causes the growth."

It is God compelling (causing) the man to turn toward him. That you may not "feel" this compulsion is part of God's genius. Sometimes you might feel it. But, once we belong to Him, we are to strain toward Him with our whole soul's effort whether we feel it or not. But, we are never to forget that even this turning is energized, empowered by His Spirit's work in our lives. What do we have that we have not been given? I Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God."

The Roman system is dangerously close to a "reward" system wherein grace is mangled into a prize for bringing myself under God's authority by an act of my will. Such a view is religion, but not Christianity. I have noted many times that this is what disqualifies Romanism, but you seem to return to this need to perform time and again.

But, here is a curious item...your own organization even recites the so-called Lord's Prayer (wrongly used) wherein you entreat God not to "...lead you into temptation". Do you simply say this because it is poetic or could He lead someone into temptation? Why ask God for this if the whole matter is a system wherein we are required to cooperate to merit the reward? If He could not do this (lead us into temptation), then why ask for it to not occur?

99 posted on 10/12/2011 4:21:44 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: verga

???


100 posted on 10/12/2011 4:22:53 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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