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To: Dutchboy88
I am also aware that semi-pelagianism was considered the unaided will determining for itself whether grace was to be accepted or rejected.

Then you're "aware" of a falsehood. Semi-pelagianism was the idea that the initiative in the ordo salutis (sometimes or always) belonged to man, unaided by grace.

That is, that the natural man could have, by himself, a "good thought" or "good movement," and from that could seek God such that God would reach down and offer him justification.

Against this, the Catholic Church taught at II Orange that nobody could seek God, repent, or believe as he ought apart from grace. Even coöperating with grace requires grace to enable the co&oum;peration. (We are fully capable of resisting grace on our own.)

There was never any question that the unaided will could, by itself, reject grace, nor that the human will, aided by grace, could actively accept subsequent graces. This is why St. Augustine could say:

But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.
-- Sermon 169, paragraph 13 Augustine was no semi-Pelagian.

Your own posts aren't even consistent with full determinism. "Depart from her, if you can"? If full determinism is true, then all "can" rests with God, and none with me. For you to tell Catholics, "Depart from her, if you can" makes as much sense as me opening a cupboard in my kitchen and telling the dishes "Jump down from there, if you can".

That your own posts contradict your theology may be a telling sign that it doesn't make sense.

I have no idea how you get full determinism out of John 16, but I know exactly how to get Catholicism out of Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
Wages are something you earn. You are fully capable of earning eternal death by your sins, and are fully capable of committing those sins. God doesn't compel it at all, for anyone. Salvation, OTOH, is an utterly free gift.
45 posted on 10/10/2011 5:00:28 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Campion
"Your own posts aren't even consistent with full determinism. "Depart from her, if you can"? If full determinism is true, then all "can" rests with God, and none with me. For you to tell Catholics, "Depart from her, if you can" makes as much sense as me opening a cupboard in my kitchen and telling the dishes "Jump down from there, if you can"."

None of the dishes in your cupboard are being managed into salvation. Some humans (being managed like dishes) are.

My fingers ran away with John 16, which s/b John 6. Now go read it and tell me you see nothing there.

But, with Romans 6, you will need to read on to see "rest of the story" and find out what a "free gift" means to Paul. Romans 9:16ff "So then, it does not depend upon the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God...So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" May wish to read Paul's answer. There is something about men being treated like dishes...but it is by their Maker. And He disagrees with you.

47 posted on 10/10/2011 5:24:26 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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