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Why a candidate’s faith matters
THe Washington Post ^ | October 18, 2011 | Robert Jeffress

Posted on 10/19/2011 5:21:41 PM PDT by wmfights

Hearing Mitt Romney’s surrogate Bill Bennett refer to me as a bigot and Jon Huntsman call me a “moron” last week after my controversial comments on Mormonism, amid calls for civility and tolerance in public discourse, reminds me of the exclamation: “We will not tolerate intolerance!” But beyond the personal insults, I am concerned that these men are attempting to prematurely marginalize religion as a relevant topic in elections. Utilizing such incendiary rhetoric against those of us who dare bring up a candidate’s spiritual beliefs cuts off discussion about religion before it begins.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: billbennett; christianity; faith; fbcdallas; inman; jeffress; jonhuntsman; lds; mittromney; mormon; mormonism; mormons; robertjeffress
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Yet our religious beliefs define the very essence of who we are. Any candidate who claims his religion has no influence on his decisions is either a dishonest politician or a shallow follower of his faith.
1 posted on 10/19/2011 5:21:44 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; ...

Ping


2 posted on 10/19/2011 5:23:09 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: wmfights

I might be a bigot but i don’t care. Religious belief DOES matter to me. I don’t want a muslim for instance to be the POTUS for obvious reasons. What a person believes in tells us alot about what kind of decisions he’ll make in office.


3 posted on 10/19/2011 5:26:44 PM PDT by annelizly
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins
From the article:

Conservatives spent most of the 2008 election calling for an investigation of Barack Obama’s religious beliefs in relationship to his membership in the Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s church. Did he embrace the views of his pastor? Again, a fair question because no religion I’m familiar with allows for a separation of faith from behavior. The question is not whether personal spiritual beliefs shape a politician’s values and policies, but what spiritual beliefs mold those values and policies.

Once the real investigation into Mormonism begins Romney won't look like a victim, but will look like a bigoted fool.

4 posted on 10/19/2011 5:28:21 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: annelizly
What a person believes in tells us alot about what kind of decisions he’ll make in office.

I agree.

5 posted on 10/19/2011 5:30:50 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: wmfights

I have the right to consider whatever I choose to consider about a candidate...and the FIRST THING I consider is whether or not a candidate is a Bible-believing Christian who lives their faith.


6 posted on 10/19/2011 5:31:08 PM PDT by bimboeruption (Clinging to my Bible and my HK.)
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To: wmfights
At this point we have the opportunity to select both a competent leader and a committed Christian.

That is why my choice is Herman Cain.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
7 posted on 10/19/2011 5:31:19 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: annelizly
Islam is the only religion that would disqualify someone for me. Other than that, it is risky business to use one's religion as a barometer to judge a candidate's political philosophy.

It should be a reliable barometer but it isn't. If it were almost all Roman Catholics would vote similarly and they don't. Santorum and the Kennedy's have very little in common.

8 posted on 10/19/2011 5:33:11 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: bimboeruption
...and the FIRST THING I consider is whether or not a candidate is a Bible-believing Christian who lives their faith.

This seems reasonable to me.

9 posted on 10/19/2011 5:35:10 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
That is why my choice is Herman Cain.

That is why my choice is Perry. Plus, I can look at 10 yrs experience as Gov.

10 posted on 10/19/2011 5:36:50 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: wmfights

A candidates character is in issue as to piety but not his religion......touting ones religion always is disasterous with the US electorate, because we have freedom to worship as we wish,and an establishment clause which separates church and state. Thats the moral base.

Benjamin Franklin said it well:

“You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His providence. That He ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render Him is doing good to His other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any particular marks of His displeasure.

“I shall only add, respecting myself, that, having experienced the goodness of that Being in conducting me prosperously through a long life, I have no doubt of its continuance in the next, without the smallest conceit of meriting it... I confide that you will not expose me to criticism and censure by publishing any part of this communication to you. I have ever let others enjoy their religious sentiments, without reflecting on them for those that appeared to me unsupportable and even absurd. All sects here, and we have a great variety, have experienced my good will in assisting them with subscriptions for building their new places of worship; and, as I never opposed any of their doctrines, I hope to go out of the world in peace with them all.”

[Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale, shortly before his death; from “Benjamin Franklin” by Carl Van Doren, the October, 1938 Viking Press edition pages 777-778 Also see Alice J. Hall, “Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin,” National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94]


11 posted on 10/19/2011 5:36:50 PM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascist info..http://www.americanthinker.com/2.009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html)
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To: Candor7

You might want to click on the link and read Pastor Jeffress’ entire opinion.


12 posted on 10/19/2011 5:38:31 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: wmfights
Uriel>That is why my choice is Herman Cain.

That is why my choice is Perry. Plus, I can look at 10 yrs experience as Gov.

When Perry steals from American Taxpayers
to give the money to Illegal alien criminals
he is not following the creator of the universe.

Do not Steal !

Perry is in open rebellion towards YHvH !

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
13 posted on 10/19/2011 5:42:51 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

I agree. Unless someone is a muslim, I don’t question their faith.

Only God knows what is really in a person’s heart and most politicians say what they think is acceptable about religion.

That being said, you can tell something by the way someone has lived his/her life.


14 posted on 10/19/2011 5:43:29 PM PDT by altura (Perry 2012)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Might remember that before you post lies.


15 posted on 10/19/2011 5:44:48 PM PDT by altura (Perry 2012)
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To: wmfights; reaganaut

It gets nauseating that people do not think a persons religious beliefs have any affect on their decision making when serving in office.

Romney’s ‘decisions for our country’ would be played according to the mormon agenda and political ideology.....which is really an organization/corporation positioning itself on the world stage in order to gain power and authority as the world governance continues to formulate itself.....cloaking itself as a religion when in fact it is a political ideology for power.

Here’s an interesting taste of how their organization is hardly a religion.... which I am fast coming to see as another “party” hiding behind the skirts of calling itself a religion....

.....”The Mormon Stock Index”.... tries to measure the stock market performance of companies run by Mormon executives. More than 50 companies have been part of the index in its two year history, including more than 30 companies on the index today. Companies are included..” as long as they have a Mormon executive on their management team,”.... and as long as the company’s public stock market capitalization exceeds $100 million.


16 posted on 10/19/2011 5:53:46 PM PDT by caww
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To: altura
From Pastor Jeffress's opinion:

Interestingly, John Jay, the first chief justice of the Supreme Court and co-author of the Federalist Papers, thought a candidate’s religious beliefs should be a primary consideration in voting. Jay wrote, “It is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” According to Jay, preferring a Christian candidate is neither bigoted nor unconstitutional.

AL: Unless someone is a muslim, I don’t question their faith.

I think the question is what is it this faith believes that the candidate claims is important to him.

17 posted on 10/19/2011 5:54:16 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: caww; reaganaut
.....”The Mormon Stock Index”.... tries to measure the stock market performance of companies run by Mormon executives. More than 50 companies have been part of the index in its two year history, including more than 30 companies on the index today. Companies are included..” as long as they have a Mormon executive on their management team,”.... and as long as the company’s public stock market capitalization exceeds $100 million.

I wasn't aware of this.

18 posted on 10/19/2011 5:58:14 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: Candor7
I can agree with your points only up to when a so called ‘religion’ has ceased being and become something else....rather has a clear political agenda and plan for this nation ,via it's leadership, which conflicts or directly opposes our constitution.... and as much becomes politically ‘active’ to position ‘their people’ into positions of power as a means of moving their agenda/ideology thru those positions of power within our government.
19 posted on 10/19/2011 6:04:34 PM PDT by caww
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To: wmfights

I did read the article at the origin link. I disagree with the good pastor, and all such a topic does is contribute to conservative disunity at the hands of the Washington Post. Little things are blown out oif proportion and context about religious beliefs and practices, and the larger context of taking back our nation from the left is lost.

The WAPO loves to lecture us about how religion matters because they know it divides the conservative right.

Obama’s relion was ignored by the MSM for a reason, they wouldn’t go near it. But the left sure wants that approach to change with conservatives.


20 posted on 10/19/2011 6:05:08 PM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascist info..http://www.americanthinker.com/2.009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html)
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To: Candor7; altura
Good posts.

What someone professes is utterly useless in judging that person; their actions are the only measure.

The only belief(s) I'd automatically shun are islam and dogmatic socialism.

Unfortunately, both of those, and some downright nasty individual 'Christians' cloak themselves in pleasant sounding generalities.

I've dealt with Mormons as well as people of most other beliefs; It's how one deals with others rather than what one may believe in or pay lip service to that matters.

21 posted on 10/19/2011 6:13:00 PM PDT by norton
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To: wmfights
The mormon corporation is just that....and more....it is truly quite amazing, but not surprising, all the investments, real-estate and this fast land holdings, and corporations there are owned and operated by them. Further the number of companies where they are actively placing their people on Board of Directors and various other positions where decisions are made.

Also interesting is a closer look at their College and how they grum promising students for positions of influence both here and internationally....Their worldwide operations academically would make any other corporation jealous...as would their holdings.

People need to try and stop seeing LDS/Mormons as a religion...and investigate it as they would a corporation. Same with the Ismali group Perry is so fond of.

Both Mormons and the Ismali’s are heavy on the globalist agenda and uniting the world economically....Ismali’s are big on spreading the wealth around....

Here's a quote from their Agu Khan Leader, so highly esteemed by the Globalist leaders:

“Together, we can help reshape the very definition of a well educated ‘global citizen’. And we can begin that process by bridging the learning gap which lies at the heart of what some have called a Clash of Civilizations, but which I have always felt was rather a Clash of Ignorance's.

As the IB ‘moves beyond the Judeo-Christian cultures’ where it is most experienced, it will have to make educators in other areas of the world into its newest stakeholders. This will probably mean developing more explicit expressions of a cosmopolitan ethic, founded if possible ‘in universal human values’. That may well be ‘a progressive’, ever evolving process.

22 posted on 10/19/2011 6:23:23 PM PDT by caww
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To: wmfights

Well,I never cared much about any politicians religion... then came Barack Hussein Obama.... and I began to realize that this (religion) was the basis for a man’s decisions, and therefore should be considered.


23 posted on 10/19/2011 6:25:38 PM PDT by theDentist (fybo; qwerty ergo typo : i type, therefore i misspelll)
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To: norton

I agree completely. I also would rule out a Muslim ( sudden jihad syndrome) and dogmatic socialism ( Obama is a case in point), both are a threat to our nation.

Ronald Reagan struck me as a man connected to divine providence. I do not believe we have had a president since then who was.

Its humble gentle humor is actually easy to spot, and no need to make a big deal out of it.I don’t detect it in any of our current field, not to say its not there, but if it is, they hide it well. Talking about religion is no substitute for manifestation and never will be.

Obama certainly has no evidence of devine providence about him, he is too much a narcist, a very poor president he has made.


24 posted on 10/19/2011 6:26:54 PM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascist info..http://www.americanthinker.com/2.009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html)
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To: norton
It's how one deals with others rather than what one may believe in or pay lip service to that matters.

That would of course depend on if or not they had an agenda for our country which flies in the face of our constitution..as it is... and not how they intend to change that to fit the mold of their ideology.

People should look closer at organizations calling themselves religions...whose in power, what are their holdings, what exactly is their political agenda if there is one and finding that out as you would any group bent on an ideology......Scientology comes to mind who do have an agenda....as do mormons and others...some more powerful than others for the revenues they take in, and some with leadership who have definite ideas of where they intend to take this nation.

Remember it was not until this nation was attacked that our government began to look seriously at groups and organizations who were funding the ISlamic agenda...it is the same with others who have their agendas...funding comes from many sources and fronts...and more times than not masquarading as something other than what it is.

25 posted on 10/19/2011 6:32:20 PM PDT by caww
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To: altura
Thou shalt not bear false witness. Might remember that before you post lies.

You accuse me of lying but cite no facts.

Seek YHvH in His WORD.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
26 posted on 10/19/2011 6:33:47 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
Actually it's Kennedy, Romney and Huntsman who have something in common ~ rather than seem to appear to push a theologically derived standard on public affairs they instinctively seek the lowest common denominator.

That way they avoid ever being accused of being a theocrat.

That doesn't work anymore. Everybody knows what the lowest common denominator is ~ they're out there fornicating in grubby little tents on Wall Street

These guys have to break out of that old "can't teach you 'bout my God" stuff or they will lose.

Romney has been practicing the stance so long I doubt he can. Kennedy sure never overcame it ~ of course he was a murderer, but I think you see the point.

27 posted on 10/19/2011 7:03:03 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; xzins
When Perry steals from American Taxpayers to give the money to Illegal alien criminals he is not following the creator of the universe... Perry is in open rebellion towards YHvH !

It would appear to me that your commitment to politics is stronger than your commitment to Christ.

28 posted on 10/19/2011 8:05:43 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: altura

Thou shalt not.


29 posted on 10/19/2011 8:12:57 PM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: wmfights

You seem reasonable and persuasive until you claim the sleazy J.R. Perry as your candidate for President!


30 posted on 10/19/2011 8:21:06 PM PDT by iowamark (Rick Perry says I'm heartless.)
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To: P-Marlowe
Uriel>When Perry steals from American Taxpayers to give the money to Illegal alien criminals he is not following the creator of the universe... Perry is in open rebellion towards YHvH !

It would appear to me that your commitment to politics is stronger than your commitment to Christ.

I use YHvH's commandments to evaluate
a politicians suitability for leadership.
"Do not judge according to appearance,
but judge with righteous judgment."
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
31 posted on 10/19/2011 8:22:38 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: wmfights
NEWT: Does Faith Matter? Absolutely.
32 posted on 10/19/2011 8:24:40 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple: Fight or Die)
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To: wmfights

I wish Rick Santorum were a viable candidate considering he is a good Catholic.


33 posted on 10/19/2011 8:54:40 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: wmfights

Of course this is right. I don’t share Mr. Jeffress’ opinion of the Catholic Church, and it is distressing that a supposed Catholic intellectual could be so oblivious to the radical differences between the Church of Latter Day Saints and Catholic doctrine, which are even greater(although Mr.Jeffress would not agree on this). than those between the Mormons and Southern Baptists. The Mormons are not friends to Catholics, athough they are quite peaceable American citizens, and our allies==to a degree—in the cultural wars. But good fences make good neighbors.


34 posted on 10/19/2011 8:58:04 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; xzins; altura
I use YHvH's commandments to evaluate a politicians suitability for leadership. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

You are a hypocrite, You are NOT judging righteous judgment, your judgment is unjust and by claiming to be "righteous" you are exposing yourself as one who has a mote in your eye.

Perry did not steal anyone's tax money and give it to "criminals". He signed into law a law which was voted in almost unanimously by the elected representatives of the state of Texas.

The law that he signed is actually a good example of Christian Charity as it allows students who are in America through no fault of their own and who graduate from Texas High Schools to be given the same tuition rates as all other students who graduate from Texas High Schools.

For you to accuse Perry of stealing and being in open rebellion against Christ because he treats these children as human beings is the height of hypocrisy.

You need to repent as you have falsely accused your brother (Perry) of theft and your attitude is clearly in violation of God's commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.

If anything, YOU are the one who is in rebellion towards YHvH!

35 posted on 10/19/2011 8:59:27 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

It is time to grow up. Read Psalm ONE, start there. You will learn that the man who is blessed is the one who delights in the Torah. Study it, and live it, just like the Nazarene...I guarantee you’ll be blessed.


36 posted on 10/19/2011 9:28:39 PM PDT by Torahman (Remember the Maccabees!)
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To: Torahman; UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; xzins; altura
You will learn that the man who is blessed is the one who delights in the Torah. Study it, and live it, just like the Nazarene...I guarantee you’ll be blessed.

Yes, let us study the torah and see what it says about aliens living in our country:

Deuteronomy 10:19 New International Version (©1984)
And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.

Exodus 22:21 "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.


Leviticus 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 23:7 Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country.
Ezekiel 47:22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.
Ezekiel 47:23 In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.
37 posted on 10/19/2011 9:44:00 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: wmfights
For me, Romney's Mormonism is irrelevant. He ran a pro-abortion Senate campaign and now claims to have always been pro-life. The pattern that example speaks to tells me what I need to know: he's a weasel opportunist.

As an aside, I've noticed, "Mormon" has become something of a word that doth not be uttered in the debates.

I look at someone like Ted Kennedy and I can tell he didn't pick up the sanctity of human life from his Catholicism but he sure picked up on the "social justice" movement.

In that sense the label taken on isn't as meaningful as the values reflected.

Obama's decade of attending the church of a racist demagogue hollering things like "God Damn America" from his pulpit is gravely disturbing. It sheds considerable light on how he speaks down to the American people and treats his job. It has nothing to do with his proclaimed Christian faith but saying he'd never heard such things all those years as a parishioner tells me, again, what we need to know: he's a belittling, divisive, opportunistic liar who will do anything to save his own skin.

I'm often wary of those who make their faith a central theme of their campaign whether it's Huckabee, W, Perry, Bachmann or the sermonizing Bill Clinton back in 1992. I'm not swayed by the rhetoric.

38 posted on 10/19/2011 10:48:01 PM PDT by newzjunkey
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; P-Marlowe; wmfights
Uriel>When Perry steals from American Taxpayers to give the money to Illegal alien criminals he is not following the creator of the universe... Perry is in open rebellion towards YHvH !

Please detail for me, Uriel, any instance in which Governor Perry illegally, against the law, STOLE taxpayer money.

I have not heard of Perry being charged by any state, local, or federal agency for THEFT.

Apparently, you have heard of such illegal activity and will willingly give us a link to an act on Perry's part that is against codified law and prosecutable as theft.

39 posted on 10/20/2011 4:50:41 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: P-Marlowe; Torahman; UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; altura
Leviticus 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

I had forgotten about this verse, P-Marlowe. The others are insightful, but this Levitical mandate goes all the way to birth rights.

I expect there will be serious disagreement with this interpretation, but I don't see how the literal rendering can be overcome.

You have opened a floodgate.

I must rethink my entire position. I am determined to be a biblical Christian and a follower of YHWH's words.

40 posted on 10/20/2011 4:59:56 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: P-Marlowe; Torahman; UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; altura; Buggman
Leviticus 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

I had forgotten about this verse, P-Marlowe. The others are insightful, but this Levitical mandate goes all the way to birth rights.

I expect there will be serious disagreement with this interpretation, but I don't see how the literal rendering can be overcome.

You have opened a floodgate.

I must rethink my entire position. I am determined to be a biblical Christian and a follower of YHWH's words.

41 posted on 10/20/2011 5:00:30 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: xzins; Torahman; UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; altura; Buggman
Leviticus 19:34 Hebrew Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
כְּאֶזְרָ֣ח מִכֶּם֩ יִהְיֶ֨ה לָכֶ֜ם הַגֵּ֣ר הַגָּ֣ר אִתְּכֶ֗ם וְאָהַבְתָּ֥ לֹו֙ כָּמֹ֔וךָ כִּֽי־ גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲנִ֖י יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ 
KJV with Strong's
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you and thou shalt love him as thyself for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt I am the LORD your God

Hebrew Transliteration Strong's English
כְּאֶזְרָ֣ח ke·'ez·rach 249 as the native
מִכֶּם֩ mik·kem 4480 at
יִהְיֶ֨ה yih·yeh 1961 become
לָכֶ֜ם la·chem    
הַגֵּ֣ר hag·ger 1616 the stranger
הַגָּ֣ר hag·gar 1481 resides
אִתְּכֶ֗ם it·te·chem 854 among
וְאָהַבְתָּ֥ ve·'a·hav·ta 157 shall love
לֹו֙ lov    
כָּמֹ֔וךָ ka·mo·v·cha, 3644 according to
כִּֽי־ ki- 3588 for
גֵרִ֥ים ge·rim 1616 were aliens
הֱיִיתֶ֖ם he·yi·tem 1961 become
בְּאֶ֣רֶץ be·'e·retz 776 the land
מִצְרָ֑יִם mitz·ra·yim; 4714 of Egypt
אֲנִ֖י a·ni 589 I am
יְהוָ֥ה Yah·weh 3068 the LORD
אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ e·lo·hei·chem. 430 your God

42 posted on 10/20/2011 6:24:17 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: wmfights
Jimmy Carter was as Christiany a Christian as you could find and he was a complete and utter nincompoop.

I oppose Romney for his political ideology not his theology.

Robert Jeffress is apparently as stupid as Jimmy Carter. He doesn't even realize The Washington Post is using him to foment discord within The Republican Party.

Which, to me, isn't necessarily a bad thing except, in this case, it doesn't serve any purpose. Except for The Washington Post, The DemocRAT Party, Liberalism in general, etc.

There are real issues that need to be discussed that will affect the future of America. Romney's religion is not one of them.

Romney would be just as disagreeable if he was, well, the Pastor of Robert Jeffress's church.

43 posted on 10/20/2011 6:37:49 AM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: annelizly; wmfights
Religious belief DOES matter to me. What a person believes in tells us alot about what kind of decisions he’ll make in office.

That philosophy worked great in Jimmy Carter's case, didn't it?

Of course, the fly in that ointment was that if didn't elect Carter, we would've ended up with Ford. Ford might've ended up being worse than Carter. We'll never know. But it was pretty well accepted that Carter was much more Christiany than Ford.

I oppose Romney for political reasons, not religious reasons.

The Washington Post doesn't give a flying fig about Robert Jeffress's or your concernes about Romney's religious beliefs. They want discord within The Republican Party and, sorry to be so blunt, people like you are falling for it.

In The Washington Post's eyes, you are the equivalent of the people at Infest Wall Street. That is to say, useful idiots.

Sorry for the directness. Sometimes it takes a little tough love to get a point across.

44 posted on 10/20/2011 6:46:30 AM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: P-Marlowe; Torahman; UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; altura; Buggman
...stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you ...

I simply don't know how to overcome the literal rendering of this verse. The literal, as you point out from Strong's is": "As the native"

And the context of the Old Testament seems to apply to nomads, those who would wander in and wander out. And it applies to those nomads settling in a particular area receiving their rights.

This seems to be saying I have to treat illegal wanderers as if they are natives.

It would seem to mean that Perry was being TOO HARD on the children of illegals who had been born or raised here.

It will require a lot of prayer for me to go that far.

45 posted on 10/20/2011 6:51:05 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; Torahman; UriĀ’el-2012; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; altura
The others are insightful, but this Levitical mandate goes all the way to birth rights.

Well, there's a prophecy that the aliens living in the Land will receive their inheritance in Ezk. 47:21-23, but whether that applies in the present world is a bit of a question. Deu. 26:12-13 puts the alien among the widow, orphan, and Levite as those who would need material support, so it's not like people could just show up and they'd be given 40 acres and a mule.

Of course, the flipside is that the alien was required to observe the Torah of the Land and the rulings of Israel's elders just as much as the native Israeli. Clearly those in this country illegally are not doing that, so what benefits their children should be able to receive is a grey area not expressly covered by Torah.

I would argue that P-Marloew is correct in post# 35 that we should regard this as a matter of "Christian charity." The Torah commands us to set aside borders of the field for the poor to glean and to loan freely to the poor--but it doesn't tell you how much. The fact that there are laws for indebtured servitude indicates that the Torah recognizes that at a certain point, charity has to stop. A person is not required to give charity to the point of causing his own children to lose their inheritance, nor to enable a user. A person is not un-Christian for arguing that we've surpassed that point on the illegal immigrant question.

Moreover, the Bible also states flatly that the Holy One hates bribes. Much of the politics surrounding the illegal question are driven by a kind of bribery circle-jerk: Politicians can use their power to extend benefits to illegals as a kind of bribe to the growing Hispanic community in order to get votes (another kind of bribe).

Having said all that, I'm not a Perry supporter, but not because of what he signed into law as Governor that was passed by the state legislature. Rather, I'm concerned with the authoritarian streak demonstrated in some of the executive orders he signed to bypass the legislature entirely (i.e., the vaccine issue) as well as the support he's garnering from the New Apostolic Reformation, which I consider just as much an aberration from Biblical Christianity as Mormonism.

Not that many of the GOP candidates excite me this year. I'll probably throw my support behind Herman Cain, even if it's probably a lost cause.

Shalom

46 posted on 10/20/2011 6:56:30 AM PDT by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.wordpress.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; betty boop; Buggman
Thank you both so very much for your outstanding sidebar on this timely verse!

Leviticus 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Amen!!!

Of course I was born and raised in San Antonio Texas and lived in the area for a half century. I did not grow up in fear of illegal immigrants out of Mexico. Indeed, the culture of South Texas is highly influenced by its Mexican past.

In my years there, I do not recall migrant farm workers out of Mexico disturbing the peace. Ditto for domestic workers, e.g. housekeepers and yardmen. The criminal element was about the same as it was elsewhere and I had no fear walking around in obviously non English speaking neighborhoods.

But the illegal drug runners out of Mexico are a different story altogether - and have become an increasingly dangerous threat.

Sadly, we cannot discern what a person is "up to" simply by looking at him - and so, in my view, the best solution is to make sure everyone coming into this country is accounted for thus allowing us to presume that those who eluded the accounting did so for a reason and send them away. All the other immigrants would be legal and welcomed.

I am a Perry supporter. He is the most pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, experienced governor in the running.

My vote is a religious one at the root. After four years of vacuum or worse, this country desperately needs a leader who kneels before God:

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. – 2 Chron 7:14

God's Name is I AM.

47 posted on 10/20/2011 7:59:14 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: P-Marlowe; wmfights; xzins; altura; Buggman
Uri'el> I use YHvH's commandments to evaluate a politicians suitability for leadership. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

You are a hypocrite, You are NOT judging righteous judgment, your judgment is unjust and by claiming to be "righteous" you are exposing yourself as one who has a mote in your eye.

Perry did not steal anyone's tax money and give it to "criminals". He signed into law a law which was voted in almost unanimously by the elected representatives of the state of Texas.

The law that he signed is actually a good example of Christian Charity as it allows students who are in America through no fault of their own and who graduate from Texas High Schools to be given the same tuition rates as all other students who graduate from Texas High Schools.

For you to accuse Perry of stealing and being in open rebellion against Christ because he treats these children as human beings is the height of hypocrisy.

You need to repent as you have falsely accused your brother (Perry) of theft and your attitude is clearly in violation of God's commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.

If anything, YOU are the one who is in rebellion towards YHvH!

Interesting how you rip verses out of context.

NAsbU Leviticus 19:30 'You shall keep My sabbaths
and revere My sanctuary; I am YHvH.
Do you keep YHvH's Shabbat ?

I'll guess you don't.

Was Perry required to sign the bill ?

I'll guess he was not required to do so.

If you encourage Lawlessness, you are Lawless.

If Perry wants to reach into his own pocket and
give "charity" to illegal aliens(criminals) he is free to do so.

Do you honor the aged ?

When a stranger resides among you,
do you treat him as a native and apply the U.S. Law ?

Or do you encourage Lawlessness ?

NAsbU Leviticus 19:37 'You shall thus observe all My statutes
and all My ordinances and do them; I am YHvH.'"

or

NAsbU Leviticus 20:2 "You shall also say to the sons of Israel:
'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning
in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely
be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Do you follow this ?

I doubt it.

What I see in your argument is ripping one verse
out of context to encourage Lawlessness.

Seek the face of YHvH in His WORD.

You could start by keeping Holy YHvH's Shabbat and His Feasts.

Many believe that Yah'shua was circumcised on this Feast Day.

Today is the feast of Rejoicing with the WORD.
Also known as the Eighth Day of Assembly

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
48 posted on 10/20/2011 9:42:22 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; xzins; P-Marlowe; Torahman; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; altura; Buggman
Interesting how you rip verses out of context. NAsbU Leviticus 19:30 'You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am YHvH. Do you keep YHvH's Shabbat ? I'll guess you don't.

If you judge candidates on how they keep the Levitical laws, then I don't see you supporting any current candidate as NONE of them keep the Levitical laws. Does that make them all in rebellion to YHVH?

Uriel, you are a hypocrite of the first order. You claim that Perry is in open rebellion against God because he allegedly has "stolen" tax money (which has been appropriated by the State Legislature for this purpose) and given it to "criminal" aliens (but these "aliens" have committed no crime other than having been brought here by their parents when they were children).

Your judgment of Perry is hardly a righteous judgment as you seem to make the keeping of Levitical laws as a requirement for holding public office in this nation.

But there is nothing in the Levitical law which forbids treating aliens as if they were native born citizens. In fact, the Levitical law requires it. If anything you should be praising Perry for his signing of the biblically consistent Dream Act and you should be condemning any politician that does not favor such treatment for these sojourners.

But then you are a hypocrite. You have proven it for all to see.

49 posted on 10/20/2011 10:28:07 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; Torahman; wmfights; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; altura; Buggman
You brought up YHvH's Law.

You seem to reject YHvH's Law except
to rip it out of context to win a debating point.

If you encourage Lawlessness , then you are Lawless.

Seek the face of YHvH in His WORD.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

50 posted on 10/20/2011 10:44:22 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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