Posted on 10/19/2011 5:21:41 PM PDT by wmfights
Hearing Mitt Romney’s surrogate Bill Bennett refer to me as a bigot and Jon Huntsman call me a “moron” last week after my controversial comments on Mormonism, amid calls for civility and tolerance in public discourse, reminds me of the exclamation: “We will not tolerate intolerance!” But beyond the personal insults, I am concerned that these men are attempting to prematurely marginalize religion as a relevant topic in elections. Utilizing such incendiary rhetoric against those of us who dare bring up a candidate’s spiritual beliefs cuts off discussion about religion before it begins.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
I had forgotten about this verse, P-Marlowe. The others are insightful, but this Levitical mandate goes all the way to birth rights.
I expect there will be serious disagreement with this interpretation, but I don't see how the literal rendering can be overcome.
You have opened a floodgate.
I must rethink my entire position. I am determined to be a biblical Christian and a follower of YHWH's words.
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I oppose Romney for his political ideology not his theology.
Robert Jeffress is apparently as stupid as Jimmy Carter. He doesn't even realize The Washington Post is using him to foment discord within The Republican Party.
Which, to me, isn't necessarily a bad thing except, in this case, it doesn't serve any purpose. Except for The Washington Post, The DemocRAT Party, Liberalism in general, etc.
There are real issues that need to be discussed that will affect the future of America. Romney's religion is not one of them.
Romney would be just as disagreeable if he was, well, the Pastor of Robert Jeffress's church.
That philosophy worked great in Jimmy Carter's case, didn't it?
Of course, the fly in that ointment was that if didn't elect Carter, we would've ended up with Ford. Ford might've ended up being worse than Carter. We'll never know. But it was pretty well accepted that Carter was much more Christiany than Ford.
I oppose Romney for political reasons, not religious reasons.
The Washington Post doesn't give a flying fig about Robert Jeffress's or your concernes about Romney's religious beliefs. They want discord within The Republican Party and, sorry to be so blunt, people like you are falling for it.
In The Washington Post's eyes, you are the equivalent of the people at Infest Wall Street. That is to say, useful idiots.
Sorry for the directness. Sometimes it takes a little tough love to get a point across.
I simply don't know how to overcome the literal rendering of this verse. The literal, as you point out from Strong's is": "As the native"
And the context of the Old Testament seems to apply to nomads, those who would wander in and wander out. And it applies to those nomads settling in a particular area receiving their rights.
This seems to be saying I have to treat illegal wanderers as if they are natives.
It would seem to mean that Perry was being TOO HARD on the children of illegals who had been born or raised here.
It will require a lot of prayer for me to go that far.
Well, there's a prophecy that the aliens living in the Land will receive their inheritance in Ezk. 47:21-23, but whether that applies in the present world is a bit of a question. Deu. 26:12-13 puts the alien among the widow, orphan, and Levite as those who would need material support, so it's not like people could just show up and they'd be given 40 acres and a mule.
Of course, the flipside is that the alien was required to observe the Torah of the Land and the rulings of Israel's elders just as much as the native Israeli. Clearly those in this country illegally are not doing that, so what benefits their children should be able to receive is a grey area not expressly covered by Torah.
I would argue that P-Marloew is correct in post# 35 that we should regard this as a matter of "Christian charity." The Torah commands us to set aside borders of the field for the poor to glean and to loan freely to the poor--but it doesn't tell you how much. The fact that there are laws for indebtured servitude indicates that the Torah recognizes that at a certain point, charity has to stop. A person is not required to give charity to the point of causing his own children to lose their inheritance, nor to enable a user. A person is not un-Christian for arguing that we've surpassed that point on the illegal immigrant question.
Moreover, the Bible also states flatly that the Holy One hates bribes. Much of the politics surrounding the illegal question are driven by a kind of bribery circle-jerk: Politicians can use their power to extend benefits to illegals as a kind of bribe to the growing Hispanic community in order to get votes (another kind of bribe).
Having said all that, I'm not a Perry supporter, but not because of what he signed into law as Governor that was passed by the state legislature. Rather, I'm concerned with the authoritarian streak demonstrated in some of the executive orders he signed to bypass the legislature entirely (i.e., the vaccine issue) as well as the support he's garnering from the New Apostolic Reformation, which I consider just as much an aberration from Biblical Christianity as Mormonism.
Not that many of the GOP candidates excite me this year. I'll probably throw my support behind Herman Cain, even if it's probably a lost cause.
Shalom
Of course I was born and raised in San Antonio Texas and lived in the area for a half century. I did not grow up in fear of illegal immigrants out of Mexico. Indeed, the culture of South Texas is highly influenced by its Mexican past.
In my years there, I do not recall migrant farm workers out of Mexico disturbing the peace. Ditto for domestic workers, e.g. housekeepers and yardmen. The criminal element was about the same as it was elsewhere and I had no fear walking around in obviously non English speaking neighborhoods.
But the illegal drug runners out of Mexico are a different story altogether - and have become an increasingly dangerous threat.
Sadly, we cannot discern what a person is "up to" simply by looking at him - and so, in my view, the best solution is to make sure everyone coming into this country is accounted for thus allowing us to presume that those who eluded the accounting did so for a reason and send them away. All the other immigrants would be legal and welcomed.
I am a Perry supporter. He is the most pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, experienced governor in the running.
My vote is a religious one at the root. After four years of vacuum or worse, this country desperately needs a leader who kneels before God:
I'll guess you don't. Was Perry required to sign the bill ? I'll guess he was not required to do so. If you encourage Lawlessness, you are Lawless. If Perry wants to reach into his own pocket and Do you honor the aged ? When a stranger resides among you, Or do you encourage Lawlessness ?
or NAsbU Leviticus 20:2 "You shall also say to the sons of Israel: I doubt it. What I see in your argument is ripping one verse Seek the face of YHvH in His WORD. You could start by keeping Holy YHvH's Shabbat and His Feasts. Many believe that Yah'shua was circumcised on this Feast Day. Today is the feast of Rejoicing with the WORD. Interesting how you rip verses out of context.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
NAsbU Leviticus 19:30 'You shall keep My sabbaths
Do you keep YHvH's Shabbat ?
and revere My sanctuary; I am YHvH.
give "charity" to illegal aliens(criminals) he is free to do so.
do you treat him as a native and apply the U.S. Law ? NAsbU Leviticus 19:37 'You shall thus observe all My statutes
Do you follow this ?
and all My ordinances and do them; I am YHvH.'"
'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning
in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely
be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
out of context to encourage Lawlessness.
Also known as the Eighth Day of Assembly
If you judge candidates on how they keep the Levitical laws, then I don't see you supporting any current candidate as NONE of them keep the Levitical laws. Does that make them all in rebellion to YHVH?
Uriel, you are a hypocrite of the first order. You claim that Perry is in open rebellion against God because he allegedly has "stolen" tax money (which has been appropriated by the State Legislature for this purpose) and given it to "criminal" aliens (but these "aliens" have committed no crime other than having been brought here by their parents when they were children).
Your judgment of Perry is hardly a righteous judgment as you seem to make the keeping of Levitical laws as a requirement for holding public office in this nation.
But there is nothing in the Levitical law which forbids treating aliens as if they were native born citizens. In fact, the Levitical law requires it. If anything you should be praising Perry for his signing of the biblically consistent Dream Act and you should be condemning any politician that does not favor such treatment for these sojourners.
But then you are a hypocrite. You have proven it for all to see.
You brought up YHvH's Law.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiachYou seem to reject YHvH's Law except
to rip it out of context to win a debating point.If you encourage Lawlessness , then you are Lawless.
Seek the face of YHvH in His WORD.
And if you argue like an idiot, then you are an idiot.
Look, you're both wrong.
Uriel, you're wrong because the Torah does allow--and in fact, commands--the leaders to collect a tithe to assist the Levites, widows, orphans, and foreigners. Therefore, Gov. Perry is not "stealing" in doing the same thing with taxes.
You're also wrong for picking and/or engaging in a fight on the eighth day of Sukkot while judging others on whether they keep the Torah.
Marlowe, you're wrong for calling Uriel a hypocrite just because he's weighing the competing demands of the Torah differently than you. What, the Torah's command to provide love and support for the foreigner is all-encompasing? Should the Israelites have handed over their grain to support the Philistines? Was David a hypocrite for going to war against those illegally moving into Israel's Land while writing psalms of praise for the Torah?
Furthermore, how far back would I have to go to find a post you've written referring to the Democrats "stealing" our taxes to pay for their pet projects? I'm pretty sure every single person on FR has used that rhetoric at one time or another. Should we treat a politician more leniantly just because he has an "R" next to his name?
Seems to me that that would be the very definition of hypocrisy.
This is NOT a black-and-white, cause-the-Bible-says-so issue, and the only way anyone can try to claim otherwise is to yank single verses out of their context to win a point. It is a complicated one on which reasonable people can honestly disagree about what degree of aid, if any, is due the children of a large number of foreigners who have crossed the border illegally.
So how about everyone take a deep breath and start showing each other some charity?
Shalom and Hag Sameach
foreigners foreigner I don't seem to find that.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Please provide the citation.
Gen. 31:15; Jdg. 19:12; 2 Sam. 22:45f; 1 Chr. 22:2; Neh. 9:2; 13:3; Ps. 18:44f; Prov. 20:16; Isa. 2:6; 56:6; 60:10; 61:5; 62:8; Jer. 50:37; 51:2; Ezek. 7:21; 44:7ff; Obad. 1:11
Gen. 31:15; Jdg. 19:12; 2 Sam. 22:45f; 1 Chr. 22:2; Neh. 9:2; 13:3; Ps. 18:44f; Prov. 20:16; Isa. 2:6; 56:6; 60:10; 61:5; 62:8; Jer. 50:37; 51:2; Ezek. 7:21; 44:7ff; Obad. 1:11
I understand the sentiment. I'm Baptist and if he was the nominee would have no problem voting for him. If we ended up with Romney and I was confident he was Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Anti-Homosexual Agenda, Pro-2nd Amendment I would vote for him reluctantly. Unfortunately he is none of those things.
He is a hypocrite because he judges Perry with a different standard than he judges everyone else while claiming at the same time that he is judging "righteous judgment". That's BS.
He has on just about every thread I've seen planted this nonsense about Perry being a thief because he signed the Texas Dream Act which was passed almost unanimously by the Texas Legislature and which treats the Children of Illegal aliens in a manner consistent with the requirements of the Torah that he pretends to be so committed to.
Sorry Buggman, I'm not backing down on this. Uriel has shown no Christian compassion for sojourners who have themselves committed no crimes.
This land does not belong to Uriel, it belongs to God. As Christians we are obligated to show not only compassion for sojourners, but to treat them as natives. If the government does not enforce immigration laws, then it is as if there are no laws. It is the government which has been lawless and allowed this situation to grow. It has benefited our politicians who have bought votes from companies that hire illegals and hispanic groups that take advantage of them for political gain.
The Children of illegal aliens who were brought here by their parents are not criminals. They are children who are to be pitied as they are people without a country. They were permitted to remain in the country to live as natives and yet they find themselves in the precarious position of not being legally able to obtain employment or even a drivers' license in the only country they have known.
I would agree with Perry that anyone who would not show compassion for these children has no heart. And anyone who would publicly accuse Perry (a professed Christian) of being a thief because he treated these children in a manner consistent with the whole body of scripture, is, IMHO, NOT A CHRISTIAN.
Sorry, but Uriel's position is not a Christian position. Nor is it a Jewish Position. It is a secular heartless position.
We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. The Commandment coupled with the commandment to love God with all our hearts fulfills all the other laws. If we personally treat sojourners as anything less than we treat native borns or our own selves, then we violate the commandments of Christ.
I am sick and tired of Uriel's twisted nonsense in regard to Perry's position on the Texas Dream Act. Uriel is a hypocrite. There is not getting around that.
I was surprised by that as well.
The Mormons are not friends to Catholics, athough they are quite peaceable American citizens, and our allies==to a degree—in the cultural wars. But good fences make good neighbors.
Well said.
I think we have done ourselves a disservice by so quickly assuming it's bigoted to not support someone of a radically different faith.
FWIW, the law also requires that they pursue American citizenship.
I know this is ground people don't like covering, but the state of TX is confronted with a real problem. What do you do with young adults brought here illegally at a young age. These young adults have no connection to the country they were brought from and are not citizens in the country they grew up in. The fed. govt. has done nothing to resolve the problem and as a result the state has a growing population of people with no place to call home.
TX did not want to punish the children for the sins of the parents. So it seems to me the only thing you can do is try and get them assimilated into the American society. If we secure the border and place severe punishments on employers we will stop this problem.
Perry & Bachmann had nothing to do with this controversy. Pastor Jeffress was asked a question by a lib reporter for politico and then Bill Bennett jumped up and made a big deal of linking this to Perry calling Pastor Jeffress a bigot in the process. The actual sentiments of Pastor Jeffress are at the link. If you read his opinion you might be surprised.
X: I had forgotten about this verse, P-Marlowe. The others are insightful, but this Levitical mandate goes all the way to birth rights.
All the more reason to eliminate the magnet that draws people here illegally.
I will credit Obama with doing more in the last 3 years to eliminate that magnet than any other president in History. Another 5 years of Obama and most of us will be looking to emigrate to some South American country just to find a job. Our current economy is certainly no magnet for illegals.
Perry gets blamed because illegal aliens are leaving other states to move to Texas. Well, that is because there are jobs in Texas.
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