Skip to comments.Transubstantiation: Change We Can Believe In
Posted on 10/19/2011 7:55:51 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
It's also the perfect rebuke to The -1.
One of those Catholic doctrines like the Immaculate Conception some of us protestants have scriptural difficulty with.
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Jesus said to them, Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to youthey are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 You do not want to leave too, do you? Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.
Audacious, isn't it? One might even say it's The Audacity of Hope.
As well as some Catholics. I'm sorry, but my wife and I went to Catholic school together for 12 years, but we just don't understand (or believe) "Transubstantiation, the "Immaculate Conception," and many other doctrines of the faith. We believe that they were created by man, not God. We respect Catholics, but we prefer to worship in other Christian churches.
Thank you- that is the relevant Scripture.
How do we get from the wafer and the wine, though?
We ( the P’s) accept this symbolically. We are participants in the death and resurrection of Christ. We identify with Him in the process, which some of us would argue includes Him going to Hell for us in the process.
Transubstantiation asserts that the wafer becomes His Flesh, and the wine His blood.
We(I) would say that the difficult part is the Identification, where we as believers must die to ourselves, in order to apprehend Christ’s sacrifice.
Thanks again, as I am but a journeyer..
Indeed. Paul knew this to be True:
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me. 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes.
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
I for one don’t believe that Catholics have horns; I have met many faithful Catholics much more reverant and serving than myself.
A quest for doctrinal purity tends to lead to an excessively legalistic splitting of hairs (there’s a joke about that, Heretic Scum!)
But, I believe God is pulling the Church to the center.
Brian, this is awesome! Thank you.
For those who do not understand, but perhaps are interested, or wish to see the scriptural basis for the dogmatic Catholic belief, two links:
Fascinating- I have not reviewed that passage in this context for some time.
That many would be ill or perhaps die due to unworthy Communion is interesting indeed.
Some of us are not big fans of “pharmakeia” or the practioners “pharmakyos”.
This might brighten your day ;-) My family saw it and everyone loved it. It instantly became our favorite desktop background.
The dogma of the real presence predates the canonization of the New Testament. Not to mention, the Orthodox more or less share the same doctrine as the Catholic Church although Aristotle’s terminology isn’t used.
Eastern Catholics don’t make use of Aristotle’s philosophy.
The Protestant denial of the real presence is a 16th century innovation that the earliest Christians would have found odd.
Rhanks so much, FRiend.
Yes. I don't think Paul would make such an assertion over a simple wafer, or a simple symbol. There just has to be more to it. Of course, the earliest Christians were unanimous in their belief in the Real Presence. It was only questioned after a thousand years had passed in Church history, and then only rejected by some sects after 3/4 of the history of Christianity had passed.
Of course, all the historic Christian denominations still cling to this belief, rightly so. And it brings more believers home than any other subject.
My pleasure. My oldest son liked it so much, he is going to have it printed as a poster and hang it on his dorm room door at Christendom College.
i hope you believe St John understood what the Eucharist is, whether it is merely bread or it is the Body of Christ.
after all, he was present at the Last Supper and we know he was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
now, if we agree on St John, can we also agree that Ignatius was taught what the Eucharist was by St John correctly? i am sure you were taught what your pastor thinks the Lord’s Supper is, just as Ignatius was taught by St John.
now, Ignatius wrote 7 epistles in the late first century just before he was martyred in Rome for his faith.
in one of these epistles, Ignatius says the Gnostics did not participate in the Eucharist because they denied it was the Body of Christ.
why do protestants continue with this gnostic heresy?
Scriptural difficulty? Jesus said “This is My Body”, He didn’t say this represents my body.
i would say the difficulty is not scriptural, but rather using the natural mind rather than the eyes of faith.
As a prot; the Real Presence is not a familiar doctrine.
King James Version (KJV)
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I have to suspect this verse relates somehow.
The Spirit is indeed here as a Comforter and Friend.
Jesus lives, and guides his Bride to the Truth.
would the Holy Spirit not lead the Church correctly for 16 centuries on what the Eucharist is? 16 centuries is a long time, don’t you agree?