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Argument For Homosexuality In The Church
http://www.relegere.org/index.php/bct/article/viewFile/274/257 ^ | Blind Eye Jones

Posted on 10/22/2011 7:56:36 AM PDT by Blind Eye Jones

Adriane Thatcher has written a book (Savage Text) where in he offers an argument for the acceptance of homosexuality in the Christian church. His argument runs along the lines that we should look at the passages that condemn homosexuality as savage text (text that renders scripture holy) – in the same way we should look to passages in the Old Testament that show God’s predilection for child killing, his wrath and vengeful wars against local tribes as savage text. These texts should not be used by the church because they contradict the loving character and message of Jesus. It should be reminded that the Bible is not the Word of God, but a witness to The Word of God. To elevate these passages as the Word of God or use the Bible as a guide book approach is bibliolatry: to make the Bible into a false idol. Jesus (as the fulfillment of the Old Testament) ultimately provides the standard by which we should judge homosexuals and minorities. Jesus would not condemn homosexuality because he is the God of Love and preaches love, compassion and inclusivity.

I am taking a course that will be using Adrian Thatcher’s book and looking for ideas that will counter this argument. Thanks.

Here is a review of his book:

http://www.relegere.org/index.php/bct/article/viewFile/274/257


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: antinomianism; enablers; fdrq; fornication; gomorrah; homonaziagenda; homosexualism; homosexualist; homosexualistic; onanism; pederasty; porneia; religiousliberalism; sexualimmorality; sexualsin; sodom; sodomite; sodomites; sodomy; sourcetitlenoturl; theologicalliberal; vanity
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1 posted on 10/22/2011 7:56:38 AM PDT by Blind Eye Jones
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Link to the review of his book:

http://www.relegere.org/index.php/bct/article/viewFile/274/257


2 posted on 10/22/2011 7:57:49 AM PDT by Blind Eye Jones
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To: Blind Eye Jones
These texts should not be used by the church because they contradict the loving character and message of Jesus

LOL. Jesus didn't come to Earth to be your buddy.

3 posted on 10/22/2011 7:58:58 AM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: Blind Eye Jones

There is NO argument for homo’s in the church. They don’t belong there, unless it is to confess their sins and try to find that unlit crooked path we are to follow.


4 posted on 10/22/2011 8:01:04 AM PDT by NoGrayZone ("Get ready for an aberration of historic proportions" - Herman Cain)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Using this logic you can justify anything. Simply condemn anything in the bible that does not validate your personal opinion as “savage text”.


5 posted on 10/22/2011 8:01:23 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Sorry, a correction to what I’m written:

(text that renders scripture holy)= (text that renders scripture unholy)


6 posted on 10/22/2011 8:02:03 AM PDT by Blind Eye Jones
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To: Last Dakotan

And what “loving character” did Jesus apply to the overturning of sales tables in the Holy Temple?


7 posted on 10/22/2011 8:02:44 AM PDT by NoGrayZone ("Get ready for an aberration of historic proportions" - Herman Cain)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Jesus spoke of hell and its reality more than everyone else in the Bible combined. How does this square with the author’s concept of the “loving character” Jesus?


8 posted on 10/22/2011 8:06:58 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Churches or societies should not encourage bad behavior by giving it validity.


9 posted on 10/22/2011 8:11:12 AM PDT by vicar7 ("Polls are for strippers and cross-country skiers" Sarah Palin)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

They are accepted, if they are willing to change. Come as you are but don’t stay that way.


10 posted on 10/22/2011 8:18:29 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Come as you are but don’t stay that way.

Spot on.
11 posted on 10/22/2011 8:21:08 AM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Blind Eye Jones
This fellow would be a good recruit for the Red Letter Christians.
12 posted on 10/22/2011 8:21:30 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Even my liberal wife believes it is plain wrong for homosexuals to be ordained clergy.


13 posted on 10/22/2011 8:22:46 AM PDT by The Great RJ ("The problem with socialism is that pretty soon you run out of other people's money" M. Thatcher)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Here’s some more savage text. We might as well air it all out. I guess we should rip out the pages which contain such things:

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 16:24 (KJV)

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:53 (KJV)

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:33-38 (KJV)

We can come up with more if necessary. The point is, the author can remake God into whatever he wants, and that can be HIS God, but it will not be the TRUE God, the God who is there. The God who will eventually sit as his judge. Then he can tell Him why he deleted or ignored “savage text.”

The issue is, “Who gets to judge which words to accept and which ones to reject?” Is it that each person gets to make that decision? Or is it that each person can pretend he has the right to make such decisions, and can pay for his error later, when he faces the true Judge?

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:10-11 (KJV)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Phil 2:12-13 (KJV)


14 posted on 10/22/2011 8:26:55 AM PDT by Rocky (REPEAL IT!)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Last time I checked, it’s God’s Universe and and He gets to make the rules. Some human egos want to run the show and would like for God to get out of the way of the enlightened few.


15 posted on 10/22/2011 8:28:54 AM PDT by JPG (America is worth saving. All hands on deck!)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Well...then I guess it’s ok to have “spouse swappin’ night” to run concurrently with “pot luck” dinners...


16 posted on 10/22/2011 8:33:23 AM PDT by WKUHilltopper (And yet...we continue to tolerate this crap...)
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To: Blind Eye Jones
Jesus would not condemn homosexuality
because he is the God of Love and preaches
love, compassion and inclusivity.

The above words are those of haSatan !

There is only ONE YHvH.

NAU Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! YHvH is our God, YHvH is one!

NAU Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! YHvH OUR GOD IS ONE YHvH;

There is only ONE YHvH

There are not two or three gods nor
a pantheon of gods including
a queen of heaven.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
17 posted on 10/22/2011 8:34:24 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: NoGrayZone

In our liberal parish, we have the mandatory gay week.

Basically every homo shows up to harass and hiss at the sermon, make noise and do condescending anecdotes during the sermon. WHEN it’s NOT gay week, those very same homos are not around, so just like gay parades, if it’s NOT about them...they do not care.


18 posted on 10/22/2011 8:39:14 AM PDT by max americana
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To: Blind Eye Jones; Last Dakotan

These people are nuts. “Jesus would not condemn homosexuality because he is the God of Love and preaches love, compassion and inclusivity.”

“And what “loving character” did Jesus apply to the overturning of sales tables in the Holy Temple?” Exactly!

Remember when Jesus made the “money changers” feel loved and included? “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;” John 2:15 Pretty compassionate there.

Adriane Thatcher is a FREAKING IDIOT! Sorry if I didn’t make you feel included Adriane.


19 posted on 10/22/2011 8:45:08 AM PDT by ConservativeChris
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To: max americana

Why are you still with them?


20 posted on 10/22/2011 8:45:42 AM PDT by NoGrayZone ("Get ready for an aberration of historic proportions" - Herman Cain)
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To: NoGrayZone

Try looking for an English speaking Catholic church in super blue L.A...


21 posted on 10/22/2011 8:48:23 AM PDT by max americana
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To: Blind Eye Jones
Man's fall came when he ate of the tree "of the knowledge of good and evil". Ever since then his rebellion has been under girded by one thing

-"I'll decide what's right and wrong" God's input doesn't matter.

Come Lord jesus.

22 posted on 10/22/2011 8:48:42 AM PDT by tx_eggman (Liberalism is only possible in that moment when a man chooses Barabas over Christ.)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Wisdom of Solomon 12:1-6, For thy immortal spirit is in all things. / Therefore thou doest correct little by little those who trespass, / and dost remind and warn them of the things wherein they sin, that they may be freed from wickedness and put their trust in thee, O Lord. / Those who dwelt of old in thy holy land / thou didst hate for their detestable practices, / their works of sorcery and unholy rites, / their merciless slaughter of children, / and their sacrificial feasting on human flesh and blood. / These initiates from the midst of a heathen cult, / these parents who murder helpless lives, / thou didst will to destroy by the hands of fathers.”


23 posted on 10/22/2011 8:49:56 AM PDT by G Larry (I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character)
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To: Blind Eye Jones
The Bible IS the Word of God. He is Faithful and True (Rev 19:11). The Bible is faithful and true (Rev 22:6). The words that God speaks are spirit and they are life (John 6:63). Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4).

"[And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, ...] And if a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13

Looks like He means what He says. Sodomy is an abomination and deserving of capital punishment. Anyone who says otherwise is calling God a liar.

Those pushing for sodomite acceptance might try to float the line "we are under grace and no longer under the law." The law is eternal. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. (Read Hebrews) Because we are in him, we establish the law. (Read Romans). Those who break the law will be punished. The believer's sins are forgiven, but there will be consequences in this life. The unbeliever is under condemnation and the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:18, 3:36).

Jesus said:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:26

People no longer fear God and respect him. Instead they "excuse" and make life "comfortable" for those in wicked sins, consigning them to an eternity in the lake of fire. That is not loving. If you love someone, you will tell him what he is doing is a wrong in hopes of reaching him with words of life. Sadly, many will be so reprobate that they cannot be reached.

24 posted on 10/22/2011 8:50:06 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Isaiah 5:18-21, “Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, / who draw sin as with cart ropes…/ Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, /who put darkness for light and light for darkness, / who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! / Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, / and shrewd in their own sight!”


25 posted on 10/22/2011 8:51:10 AM PDT by G Larry (I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

When God ordered the Israelites to destroy certain peoples, I think we have to assume that He knew what He was doing. It’s not that the Israelites were more savage than later Christians, or that the Old Testament God was different from the New Testament God, but that God decides through His providential will.

Those people who were destroyed were idol worshippers, and most of them had practices like sacrificing their own children to idolatrous Gods, such as Moloch. Or practicing prostitution in the temples of various goddesses.

We’ve all heard the phrase, “Kill them all, and let God sort them out.” Presumably if there were any good people among those tribes that were eliminated, God took care of them.

The commission of homosexual acts, in contrast, is always an evil, back then and now. Not having homosexual inclinations, but putting them into practice. It would never be right in a Christian priest or clergyman. Nor can it be excused in Christian laymen, because the job of the clergy is to preach God’s word and convert sinners.


26 posted on 10/22/2011 8:51:41 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius.)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Matthew 5:17 (NIV)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”


27 posted on 10/22/2011 8:51:41 AM PDT by Azeem (There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo.)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Last Dakotan

Anyone thinking that unchanging homos are OK is worse than a Satanist


29 posted on 10/22/2011 8:55:02 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: max americana

If the Catholic church is accepting homo’s, perhaps it’s time to look for a new religion, similar to your beliefs.

Saying nothing, or doing nothing about it is accepting it.


30 posted on 10/22/2011 9:02:36 AM PDT by NoGrayZone ("Get ready for an aberration of historic proportions" - Herman Cain)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Basically every sentence this guy writes is contradictory to Scripture, refuting it one sentence at a time would result in several refutation sentences for each one he wrote.

The whole work is so far out there it’s preposterous.


31 posted on 10/22/2011 9:07:43 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We need to fix things ourselves)
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To: G Larry
Isaiah 5:18-21...Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, / and shrewd in their own sight!

Very good. This nails it. No ambiguity there!

32 posted on 10/22/2011 9:12:17 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Anyone who argues that homosexuality is a legitimate, sanctioned form of sexual contact seeks to accomplish Satan’s purposes in the Earth and make Satan’s job a whole lot easier to do.


33 posted on 10/22/2011 9:24:55 AM PDT by Tonytitan
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To: Blind Eye Jones

The problem is, anti-homosexuality is also in the NEW Testament.

Logic, why don’t they teach logic in these schools...


34 posted on 10/22/2011 9:25:57 AM PDT by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
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To: NoGrayZone

>Saying nothing, or doing nothing about it is accepting it.

yer right...let me just uproot my entire business and home and head to a parish akin to my liking 200 miles away.


35 posted on 10/22/2011 9:26:31 AM PDT by max americana
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To: Blind Eye Jones

If you believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, came to earth, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross, then you can be fully assured that the God who sacrificed his only Son on a Cross for the sins of humanity will keep his word and not allow sin, in the form of homosexuality, to come into His Kingdom.

- God condemned homosexuality under the law of the Patricarchs.
- God condemned homosexuality under the law of Moses.
- God condemned homosexuality under the law of Christ.

When Jesus prayed in the garden “yet not as I will, but as You will.”, that should be sufficient to the homosexuals that no matter how much THEY want to do what they want, Christ showed that you do what GOD wants.


36 posted on 10/22/2011 9:26:43 AM PDT by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Thatcher, as well as other so called “theologians,” are continuing the attack of Satan on God’s word that began when the serpent asked Eve, “Did God say?” in Genesis 3.

If the Bible is not God’s inspired word to humanity, then we can twist it any way we want to fit our particular lifestyles, and do it in the name of religion. Moral relativism attempts to make Jesus of Nazareth into a “nice guy.” The truth is quite the opposite.

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.” Matt 10:34-36

“I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.” John 17:9

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!” Matt 23:15

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” Matt 23:33


37 posted on 10/22/2011 9:26:57 AM PDT by Bed_Zeppelin
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To: max americana

I’m just saying. If you can only find a non English speaking church, or if your churches around you are full of the homo agenda, then just quit it all together.

Have your own family service at home. He will not only understand, but guide you into it.

Those who are like minded might join you. Put the word out there. If your home isn’t big enough, get the word out. Perhaps someone else can do it in theirs.

I’m just saying you have options.....don’t get trapped.


38 posted on 10/22/2011 9:33:43 AM PDT by NoGrayZone ("Get ready for an aberration of historic proportions" - Herman Cain)
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To: MNJohnnie
Using this logic you can justify anything. Simply condemn anything in the bible that does not validate your personal opinion as “savage text”.

I couldn't agree more. It's always easier to embrace some simple (and simplistic rule that 'works for you' than it is to do the right thing and interpret the entirety of the Bible as a whole.

I ALWAYS refuse to get into a 'dueling Bible verses' contest - otherwise, I end up, as the joke goes, 'tying my ass to a tree and then walking 10 miles".

39 posted on 10/22/2011 9:37:20 AM PDT by Quality_Not_Quantity (A half-truth masquerading as the whole truth becomes a complete untruth. (J.I. Packer)
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To: max americana

http://www.archdiocese.la/directories/parishes/indult.html

These are the parishes that have tridentine masses. I don’t know how far all of these are from you.

Personally, I’d recommend going to the spanish speaking masses. Better that the mass obeys Christ.


40 posted on 10/22/2011 9:38:57 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: I still care

“Logic, why don’t they teach logic in these schools...”

Logic is the enemy of emotional socialism!


41 posted on 10/22/2011 9:54:10 AM PDT by G Larry (I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character)
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To: Blind Eye Jones
Just my 2 cents...

When behavioral practices originally condemned in the Old Testament are again condemned in the New Testament, they cannot be considered “savage” text. This is because the New Testament condemnation either comes directly from Jesus or comes from one of his recognized apostles.

Homosexuality is condemned in a number of places in the Old Testament. It is again condemned New Testament, most famously in Paul's Letter to the Romans (which lists it among a catalog of sinful Roman behaviors).

However it is again condemned in Jude (Jude 1: 5-11, KJV):

“5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.”

Note the reference in verse 7 to Sodom and Gomorrah, their destruction, the reason for their destruction, and the fact that they are meant to be an example.

Consequently, you have homosexuality being condemned in both testaments, a direct linking of the New Testament condemnation to the Old, and the New Testament condemnation being done by apostles who either knew Jesus personally during his earthly ministry or, in Paul's case, were called directly by Jesus after his resurrection.

The only way the “savage text” argument works is if the author proves that the apostles (who collectively authored all of the text of the New Testament) were themselves ignorant of the “loving nature” of the Lord they served.

And if one portion of the text fails to reflect the "loving nature of Jesus," what other forbidden behaviors is the author next going to say are permitted? Pedophilia? Bestiality?

42 posted on 10/22/2011 9:54:17 AM PDT by Captain Rhino (“Si vis pacem, para bellum” - If you want peace, prepare for war.)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

The definitive statement about homosexuality was made with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, today’s equivalent being Key West, FL and Northampton, MA.


43 posted on 10/22/2011 9:58:25 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: BenKenobi; max americana
I attended a tridentine mass at San Fernando Mission. It's not too far from the intersection of the 5 and 405.

It was a well-attended beautiful mass held within the old mission church.

44 posted on 10/22/2011 9:59:57 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

Well I hope it’s not too far for poor max americana to travel. I know exactly what his concerns are. I used to have to walk to the cathedral downtown in the winter just to go to mass.


45 posted on 10/22/2011 10:02:40 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

“These texts should not be used by the church because they contradict the loving character and message of Jesus.”

Never mind that the next time the world sees Jesus, he’ll be dipped in blood and riding a horse, intent on wiping out all of the armies of the world in a single day.


46 posted on 10/22/2011 10:06:17 AM PDT by lurk
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

OK, I;m stumped..what’s a “tridentine mass”?


47 posted on 10/22/2011 10:06:17 AM PDT by max americana
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To: max americana

Latin mass with the rite prior to the Novus Ordo (instituted in Vatican II). Basically goes back to where the Church was in the early 60’s. Usually a good bet to find faithful Catholics. :)


48 posted on 10/22/2011 10:17:44 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Why Judaism (and then Christianity) Rejected Homosexuality http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PragerHomosexuality.php


49 posted on 10/22/2011 11:00:14 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (Obamageddon, Barackalypse Now! Bam is "Debt Man Walking" in 2012 - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Blind Eye Jones

Easy argument winner.

What about the loving Jesus talking and warning people about Hell? And to stop doing their evil deeds and repent otherwise they too would end up in Hell?

Seems if we have to throw away the verses about homosexuality, we have to throw away everything Scripture says about people going to Hell.

And then you might as well not even use the Bible anymore because you’ve defeated its purpose.


50 posted on 10/22/2011 11:32:23 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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