Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Naw, I'm not that gullible...If you tell me you are pulling a red wagon and it turns out that you are eating a ham sandwich because that's what pulling a red wagon means to you,,,blah, blah, blah...
We say, "For freedom Christ has set you free," while we think that freedom and responsibility are essentially related.
The problem isn't definition, it's deception...You don't get to create a new definition within your religion while using the old definition outside of your religion...
I will label that as doublespeak while trying to get out of a hot spot...
There are no unsaved people in the conversation
Indeed. The people who go through purgatory all have been saved already, as the only exit from purgatory is heaven. It would be therefore illogical for St. Paul to jumble the hell into this conversation, and so he did not.
It is the 'work' which shall go thru the fire...No man will go thru a fire... There is no pain nor suffering [this opinion is repeated three times]
Well, there is a suffering of loss in verse 15. Also recall that the believer himself is said to be a building in verse 9. So it is true that the inferior works are burned, but the entire building, that is the entire man is tested by fire. The good works remain, like gold and stone are not damaged by fire, and the inferior works, such as stubble, burn off. The test of fire is however applied to the whole of the building, that is to the whole of the man.
Pretty simple stuff here to read and understand...It's a matter of believing what one reads...
Yes. Generally, while much in Catholicism is very detailed and very complex theology, the Catholic faith is accessible, simple, and readily present in the Holy Scripture, unlike the Protestant's deceptive convolutions over every word.
No amount of praying on earth will change a single bad work into a good one
That is not why Christians pray for the dead souls in purgatory. We pray to ease their passage, like you pray for any traveler.
That guy you people speak about over there in Luke going to jail till the price is paid doesn't live in the church age...
The parable is in the scripture and the scripture is for our instruction today. When Christ gave us this parable he was preparing us for the Church Age. It is rather characteristing of Protestant deception to take out of the Gospel anything they don't like in it, on the grounds that Christ's words somehow do not apply to us.
The parable of unmerciful debtor can be read as a temporal judgment by a court of men, but there is no reason to ignore the implications of it for the judgment by God after death. Christ did not tell the parable to remind us of the existence of tort law, so we should seek for a higher meaning in all His teaching.
As the the duration of the purgatorial process, we should remember that the souls in purgatory already live outside of time. We know that the amount of purgatorial suffering somehow is proportional to the amoung of purgation that is necessary, so our mind natually thinks of it as having a certain duration, by analogy with fire that needs time to burn the stubble off. However, one could believe, like you do, that the purgatorial cleansing is instantaneous. In fact, the Pope recently reminded us of this possibility.
You seem to be a little stingy with some of the details of the teaching...Says here that your religion teaches and believes that Jesus died for all sins, PAST...Not future...That in itself explains the direction you guys always go in...
There's some wild stuff on this page... From EWTN
Does the blood of Christ not purify us totally when we receive Him as Lord and Savior? A sin is forgiven if, and only if, we are contrite; a sin I am not sorry for having committed is a sin that is not forgiven. Does Christ blood completely purify me? To the degree I am sorry for my sins.
But suppose we grant the Protestant notion that when I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior I am totally and perfectly purified. Such an admission, however, does not necessarily entail a perpetual purification; at the time of my initial encounter with Christ, I might be perfectly and completely purified, but what happens when later that day I commit a sin?
Or are we to say that a Christian cannot commit a sin? Surely not. Or are we to believe that the moment he does sin it is instantly washed away regardless of his non-contrition for having committed that sin? Surely not.
If Christians do commit sin, then he is not clean. His garments have become soiled. Christ tells us that only those with unsoiled garments can walk with Him (cf. Rv 3.4-5).
Christians are constantly in the need for purification; we never reach a point when we no longer need to be bathed in the most precious Blood of our Savior. We always need Jesus!
Those that maintain that the act of faith a person made X-number of years ago in the past is sufficient for forgiveness of subsequent sin, grossly misunderstands justification; also implicit in such a belief is a denial of sanctification. If justification did it all, for all times, then sanctification makes absolutely no sense.
ping for later
Christ doesn't want us having a one on one relationship with his mother or any departed beings gone to Heaven for example while we are in this world. We are shown what this gets you when a man pleaded with Abraham. I do believe there is a verse as well where horrors were brought by calling on the dead for favor. Christ wants a one on one relationship with us. Through Him and Only Through Him do we come too the Father asking in His Name. We we finally go before The Father Our Father sees not our sin. He sees His Son. Our sin is removed. Not by years of existence in some obscure place hoping that our remaining sins eventually go away, but rather by the Baptism of The Blood Of Jesus Christ the very instant we except His free gift of salvation. Remember everyone what John The Baptist said of Christ and Baptisms.
This stuff reminds me of children who have formed a club. Admission is free if you ask too join. But first you have to go do this, do that, meet this condition and that condition that the leaders of the club can think of. Of course these making the rules were excepted into the club and did none of it.
Mans Conditions upon salvation and our relationship with GOD have cause heartaches and The Bible is full of examples. The Galatians are a good example of what I am saying.
CAPS were intentional because The Gospel should be shouted :>}
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The Protestant fantasy of what the purgatory is, -- is not biblical. The purgatory as a place where the soul already saved by Christ's grace alone undergoes purification before it enters heaven is entirely biblical. See for example, the discourse of the purification of the saved by burning off their inferior works in 1 Cor. 3 While some Protestants may misunderstand what RC purgatory is, as do many Roman Catholics, some Roman Catholics earnestly assert 1Cor. 3:15 refers to purgatory, this reflects reading into the text, and the note in their own official NAB Bible, including its latest revision, states, “The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.” (http://usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=1%20Corinthians&ch=3). Not that approved in Rome or CF teachings are always consistent Aquinas stated in 13th century that, Bellarmine stated that “there are six opinions.” on 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. However, in dealing with the attempt to convert 1Cor. 3 into support purgatory, in short what the context supports is that the judgment here is at the time of the return of Christ, not commencing upon death, and in context, what is tried by fire here is the manner of persons (“any man's work”) one built the temple of the Lord with, 1Cor. 9:1) with the faithful being rewarded, with true believers being one's “joy and crown,” (Phil. 4:1) while the suffering, is a negative, a loss of rewards. (1Cor. 3:15) the Corinthians were following men more than Christ, (1Cor. 3:4) and thus Paul states that they are the fruit of the work of the sowers Apollos and himself, but God gives the increase, (1Cor. 3:5-7) and that “every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour,” believers themselves being God's building, (1Cor. 3:9) built upon Christ. (1Cor. 3:11) The judgment here is at the time of the return of Christ, not commencing upon death, and in context, the “work” that is tried (“any man's work”) is the manner of persons one built the temple of the Lord with. 1Cor. 9:1) Thus the admonition is “let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon,” 1Cor. 3:10), as what is built is either imperishable or perishable, 1Cor. 3:12) which “the day [of Christ] shall declare” by fire, (1Cor. 3:13) with the work that abides the fire gaining the builders a reward, (1Cor. 3:14) true believers being precious jewels and one's “joy and crown,” (Phil. 4:1) whereas if any mans works are burned then the believer suffers loss, a negative loss of rewards (Cor. 3:15) — not gain as would be the case if salvific personal purification was the case. But if anyone defiles the church, as one was doing in the next chapter, then he would be destroyed if he died in that state. (vs. 16,17) I will expand on this, and references are hypertext and should be read, and most can be seen by pop up in my similar comments here. Thanks be to God, "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 8 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 9 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 10 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 11 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 12 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 13 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 14 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:8-15, emph. Mine) The immediate and larger context is about the nature of the church, and here it deals with judgment (at the time of Christ's return) as regards the manner of work one builds it with. God's judgment will reveal who men were following, and building His church with. The Corinthians were, like Rome, thinking of instruments of God “above what it written” (1Cor. 4:6, and “written” almost always refers to Scripture), resulting in unnecessary carnal divisions (1Cor. 3:4) and also counting manifestly gross sinners as members. (1Cor. 5:1) And as they collectively are the temple of God, if any man defile it and will not repent, shall God destroy them. (1Cor. 3:17; cf. 11:32) See also below on when moral sanctification takes place in the believer. The judgment then of 1Cor. 3:15 is about one's workmanship in building the church, and “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire,” Rather than these works being personal faults which one must be purified from (and would be counted a joy for losing), and of sins being expiated (atoned, compensated for) through potentially thousands of years of “fire and torments or purifying' punishments,” (Indulgentiarum Doctrina; cp. 1. 1967) so they can enter heaven, instead those being judged are already with the Lord in heaven, the time of this judgment being the time of the Lord's return, which the Corinthians are to wait for, (1Cor. 4:5; cf. 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev. 11:18; 22:12) when believers will forever be with the Lord, (1Thes,. 4:17) that being the “day of Christ.” (2Thess. 2:2; 1Cor. 1:8; Phil. 1:6,10; 2:16) As for that which is burned, “the day shall declare” “what sort it is,” (1Cor. 3:13) with the works being what one builds the church with, whether in planting or watering, this material being souls, who are “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,” “builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit,” (Eph. 2:20; cf. 1Cor. 3:11) being “God's building,” (1Cor. 3:9) as living stones are “built up a spiritual house,” (1Pt. 2:5) with true believers being God's “jewels,” (Mal. 3:17) In distinction to the lost, the precious stones with fire-tried faith endure the fire of testing, (1Pt. 1:7) and believers are rewarded by Christ at His coming for building with true stones. Therefore Paul himself calls the Corinthians themselves “my work in the Lord.” (1Cor. 9:1) “and we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 2Cor. 1:14) And says to the Thessalonians, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” (Phil. 4:1) In contrast to gold, silver, valuable jewels and precious stones, whose death is precious in the sight of the Lord, (Ps. 116:15) the fire burns up the fake stones, these represented as “wood, hay and stubble,” and tares, (Mt. 13:30; cf. 1Cor. 3:17) and which is a negative loss for the builder, as a man is not crowned, except he strive lawfully. (2Tim. 2:5) Those who suffer loss due to false converts being burned up will themselves be “saved so as by [through] fire,” as a man who lost his possessions in a fire, though one must have some fruit to be considered a believer. (Mt. 25:30; cf. 8:12; 22:13) And Paul labored in the Lord, so that whether present of absent when He returned, he would find “Well done” for being faithful over a few things, (2Cor. 5:9; Mt. 25:21,23) and faithful shepherds shall be rewarded with “a crown of glory that fadeth not away.” (1Pt. 5:4) In additional distinction to postmortem purgatorial purification, personal sanctification is always shown to be done in this life, even if by extreme means as that of 1Cor. 5:5, in bringing a soul back to saving faith. Nowhere does Scripture tell of believers being in a postmortem place of suffering for purifying of faults, though this is extrapolated by some out of a few texts which fail to establish it. In contrast to such, the tormented postmortem state of the lost is clear, and their suffering is in accordance with accountability, relevant to grace given, (Lk. 10:13-14; 12:48; while the clear references to the postmortem place of the elect is with the Lord. Paul describes the passing from this life as being “clothed upon with our house which is from heaven,” to be with the Lord, which is something to earnestly be desired, and is in contrast to our groaning on earth. (2Cor. 5:1-4) Not only would the penitent criminal who went to Paradise (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as well as Paul be with the Lord upon their passing, (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8: “we”) but so would every resurrected raptured Corinthian (1Cor. 15:51ff) or Thessalonian, “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1Thess. 4:17) even though Paul had not attained to perfection, (Phil. 3:12) and the Corinthians in particular were in need of greater purification, (2Cor. 7:1) though not all were believers. (2Cor. 13:5) While saving faith is one that characteristically walks in the obedience of faith, (Heb. 5:9) there are consequences in this life for forgiven sin, (2Sam. 12) from lost opportunities to loss of lives, as well as chastisement for in this life needed for conformity to Christ, (Heb. 12) which can be severe. Believers also may suffer loss of rewards due to their manner of workmanship, as there will be postmortem accountability for what a believer did. (Rm. 14:10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) And meeting the Lord's disapproval will not be a light thing, part of which i surmise will be the grief at realizing how much their lack in “the obedience of faith” cost souls, and robbed God of the glory they could have given their sacrificial Lord and Savior. Yet this only takes place at His return, (2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering upon death. And while the loss of rewards in 1Cor. 3 does reflect upon the character of the builder, yet in summation, in context and in conjunction with other texts on the day of judgment, the fire is not about making postmortem expiation for sin and or being personally purified upon death, but the fire is that which consumes the false building material, which is shown to be the manner of converts one built the church with, directly or indirectly, and the suffering is the consequential suffering of loss of rewards at the future return of Christ, a negative loss, for building the church with such bad material, versus stones like Peter which the Lord used to build His church with, with all believers being stones (1Pt. 2:5) without which there is no church to build. This is what is most clearly warranted by the text, and to read purgatory into it is wresting it to conform to one version* developed from nebulous church tradition. *The Orthodox do have some versions of a postmortem preparation (necessarily a place of punishment but rather a place of growth), but overall reject Roman Catholic purgatory, as one source states, “Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.” — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076 Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Kallistos Ware acknowledges several schools of thought among the Orthodox on the topic of purification after death. This divergence indicates that the Catholic interpretation of purgatory, more than the concept itself, is what is universally rejected. — http://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory |
Once again a very well researched post daniel1212!
It is true that 1 Cor 3:9-15 can be interpreted in different ways than that of the purgatory, like most allegorical passages in the scripture. It also should be noted that the Catholic NAB is produced by most liberal Catholic Bible scholars available in cooperation with the Protestants, -- always a bad idea. A serious Catholic should wholly disregard the "catholic" NAB comments.
The statement I made is that the Purgatory is the primary subject matter of 1 Cor 9-15, because I am confronting the evident Protestant falsehood that there is "no" biblical support for the concept of Purgatory. In that light, I will respond to your post.
The judgment here is at the time of the return of Christ
That is a serious objection as indeed the "day of the Lord" most naturally refers to the Second Coming of Christ and the attendant universal judgment, as opposed to the particular judgment of everyone immediately upon one's death. If one were to conclude from 1 Cor. 3 that upon the last judgment some people will suffer the purgatorial fire, such a believer would be in keeping with the passage. The problem with this interpretation is that it makes the particular judgment a non-event: the believer is saved and ... is made wait till the Second Coming to enter heaven and be with the Lord. While this reading is possible, it is not mandated by the text as it is possible that the manifestation to others is delayed but the purification itslef is immediate.
if any mans works are burned then the believer suffers loss, a negative loss of rewards (Cor. 3:15) — not gain as would be the case if salvific personal purification was the case.
There is both a loss and a gain described in 1 Cor. 3 (vv 8, 15) and in the case of the purgatorial passage according to the Church there is also a loss of the direct passage into sainthood, and a gain of that very sainthood in the end. There is no contradiction between the scripture and the teaching of the Church here.
if anyone defiles the church, as one was doing in the next chapter, then he would be destroyed if he died in that state
Indeed, and one burdened by a grave and unconfessed sin, espacially that of holding the damnable Protestant convictions in order to hurt the Catholic Church, will indeed not be saved even through purgatory, but rather damned forever.
The judgment then of 1Cor. 3:15 is about one's workmanship in building the church, and “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire,” Rather than these works being personal faults which one must be purified from (and would be counted a joy for losing), and of sins being expiated (atoned, compensated for) through potentially thousands of years of “fire and torments or purifying' punishments,” (Indulgentiarum Doctrina; cp. 1. 1967) so they can enter heaven, instead those being judged are already with the Lord in heaven
Ther is no such distinction as "workmanship in building the church" opposed to "personal faults which one must be purified from". When one commits a sin, that is a sin against the entire Church as well as an individual loss, and when one does penance, that builds him individually and also builds up the Chruch as a whole (Col. 1:24). That the passage is not about the clergy only is seen in "every man's work" being underscored in the passage.
Nowhere does Scripture tell of believers being in a postmortem place of suffering for purifying of faults
In this passage, 1 Cor 3 verses 13 through 15 in particular we see that post-mortem suffering. Your point seems to be that the souls that go through the purgatorial cleansing are with the Lord already, -- which indeed in a way they are -- so you yourself agree that the suffering and loss described in the passage in focus is occuring following the believer's natural death.
the fire is that which consumes the false building material, which is shown to be the manner of converts one built the church with
No, because in 1 Cor 3:9 every believer is said to be such building. It is therefore he himself being burnt in the cleansing fire, not some disembodied "works" or "materials". You are not following the language of the metaphor through.
Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Kallistos Ware acknowledges several schools of thought among the Orthodox on the topic of purification after death. This divergence indicates that the Catholic interpretation of purgatory, more than the concept itself, is what is universally rejected
It is good that you study the Orthodox sources. Any Protestants will go miles toward the Kingdom of Heaven if he converts to the Orthodox Church and obeys her patriarchs in where they are correct and in a few cases where they are ... not in error, but in an attempt to deepen the schism. The truth is that there is much in Western Catholic Church that is peculiar to it and is not shared by the East. In this case, both East and West agree on the essentials, that there is a purification after death of those capable of being purified and thus saved, thanks to the infinite mercy of Christ. The specific Western practices and pieties are not obligatory for the East if they don't have the mind for them.
In my impression your response is a personal insult.
Good.This saves me the trouble of reading anything else you write.
I'm not asking this contentiously (or not meaning to, anyway. It's a problem I've been working on since 1973.
Nice work, both of you.
Good luck with you works based salvation. I use the word luck because it’s obvious you haven’t put your faith in the completed work of Christ.
But on an exegetical level, you must know that is quite an ambiguous, enigmatic verse, which is open to interpretation (an RC on CA answers stated it was “clear as mud").
The Catholic NAB states,
What is lacking: although variously interpreted, this phrase does not imply that Christ’s atoning death on the cross was defective. It may refer to the apocalyptic concept of a quota of “messianic woes” to be endured before the end comes; cf. Mk 13:8, 19–20, 24 and the note on Mt 23:29–32. Others suggest that Paul’s mystical unity with Christ allowed him to call his own sufferings the afflictions of Christ. — http://usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Colossians&ch=1
The conservative Haydoc RC commentary, states,
Ver. 24. And fill up those things....in my flesh for his body, which is the church.[5] Nothing was wanting in the sufferings or merits of Christ, for a sufficient and superabundant redemption of mankind, and therefore he adds, for his body, which is the church, that his sufferings were wanting, and are to be endured by the example of Christ by the faithful, who are members of a crucified head. See St. Chrysostom and St. Augustine. (Witham) --- Wanting. There is no want in the sufferings of Christ himself as head; but many sufferings are still wanting, or are still to come in his body, the Church, and his members, the faithful. (Challoner) --- St. Chrysostom here observes that Jesus Christ loves us so much, that he is not content merely to suffer in his own person, but he wishes also to suffer in his members; and thus we fill up what is wanting of the sufferings of Christ. (St. Chrysostom) — http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id212.html
It sees the application is being what is wanting, and want to apply this sacramentally.
Some Protestant commentators also see as referring to the union the church has with Christ, and suffering with Him as believers are called to do till He returns.
I myself see it as that also, and especially to Paul, as he was foretold what things he himself would have to suffer for Jesus name, (Act 9:18) and while there is no lack in the sufferings of Christ in making the perfect atonement for all our sins to be forgiven, yet practical perfection of the body remains a goal, and as a result of the Atonement believers do instrumentally participate in the perfection of the saints (Eph. 4:12) as we follow Christ, and which entails suffering, both by choice and by consequence, (Phil. 1:29; 2Tim. 3:12; 1Pt. 2:21) in the sense that the body is not one member but many, (1Cor. 12:14ff) and is interdependent (but “co-dependent upon God) and minister grace to each other. Paul thus stated,
And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. (2Cor. 1:6)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (2Tim. 2:10
It is also true that we enter in other men's labors, (Jn. 4:38) in the sense that we are affected by the iniquities or virtues of those before us, and Paul expresses debt to the Jews for instance. We in America have entered into the labors of God-fearing men, as well as the shortcomings of others who were not, and today's generation will suffer more from the latter.
And the church, as the interdependent body of Christ, does “dispense” grace as its members act in obedience toward Christ, in sacrificial love. And the more faith-full and virtuous one is, individually and corporately, then the more effectual such can be as an instrument of grace. By application includes everything from prayer to laying on of hands in ministering the Spirit (Gn. 3:5) to posting on FR (sometimes).
Where i see the problem is when the conveyance of grace by born again believers in dependance upon seeing God manifest His power is replaced by formalism, by perfunctory practices and confidence in ritual by any church which fosters such, and make it much like a bank transaction, which may have a form of Godliness but do not manifest the power thereof. And i do come short in the latter, but know that there is a vast difference between the two.
What I do remember is being a child told by my mother that the nuns were close to God like the angels. To calm my fears about first days of school.
Well that all changed when the pre Vatican council two nun threw chalk at me. I was in shock that she would do that so I threw the eraser at her. sShe then came came over to hit me. I pulled her habit off. To say the least. I got left back. She did not want to teach me proper or go out of the way to help in my childhood view.
Next year I had the greatest teacher and nun. She would sing the abc's with a guitar. She was a real "saint " in my view. What a woman. I believed she always was on fire in the Holy Spirit love. I always wonder what happen to her. She reminded me of Julie Andrews in Sound of Music. Like the way she love the Von trapp kids.
I never would of met this woman who helped changed my young life. Our Lord allows somethings for the greater good of our souls. Metmom it does not have to be our faults at times in life. We are only human and simple sinners at times in need of the Savior' s love every day. I always get that beautiful presence of peace with prayer.
Praise Jesus to you!
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
If you understand how God made the covenant with Abraham you understand how it is He who does it all. Remember that He put Abraham into a deep sleep and God Himself acted as both sides in the making of the covenant.
So for you responsibility and therefore freedom (an association which of course can be questioned) is not essential to the human?
Nobody likes the NAB as far as I know. The friars I hang with use the RSV.
I think the excerpt from the Haydoc is pretty much what I think.
Of course it is unthinkable that there would be anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ. That's what make the verse important. I think it is not limited to his experience but that it pertains to the Church as his fulness, though he would be full without us.
and as a result of the Atonement believers do instrumentally participate in the perfection of the saints (Eph. 4:12) as we follow Christ,
Could you say more about "instrumentally"?
by perfunctory practices
A note: the practices aren't perfunctory. The practitioners sometimes are.
The "risk" of an ex opere operato 'scheme' is precisely that the priest and the people can 'go through the motions.' The benefit is that it doesn't matter -- in two ways. (1) The one person in the congregation who is awake that morning loses nothing if the priest and the other people aren't.
(2)And this is not the only time they have attended Mass. That's not unimportant. Sometimes what looks like a Mass attended or sung asleep is just a coming consolation or perceived grace "building up a head of steam,' so to speak. I never intended to learn the Magnificat, but on a day I really needed to sing to God (in my paddocks where it would scare only the sheep) I found to my surprise that I had the words I needed right there! All those recitations of evening prayer were "paying off."
And finally, as I say about the Rosary, it's risky to judge by external appearances. It just looks like a bunch of people droning on. You can't see from the outside what is going on inside.
No where in the book of James does he say works are needed for salvation...
The book of James was written to a converted church , not heathens seeking salvation . It tells them how their conversion is seen by the unsaved world . It is not about becoming saved or being saved. It is about the fruit of your salvation.
Eighteen times in this short letter James calls them Sisters and brothers
This is not a letter telling men how to be saved..
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
This is an amplification of the teaching of Jesus that we know a tree by the fruit it bears. It is how we know the saved from the unsaved. It does not declare that the man has faith ...but that he SAYS he has faith.
This addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one .Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save.This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.
The bible is clear that it is God that gives the faith and it is God that ordains the works of the saved
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Too bad Jesus couldn't finish the job He was sent to do:(
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