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Mormonism, Catholicism, and the Romney Candidacy
The Catholic Thing ^ | June 2011 | Francis Beckwith

Posted on 10/26/2011 8:31:31 PM PDT by rzman21

By Francis J. Beckwith 1 In a piece recently published in the Catholic and Evangelical portals of the Patheos website, Warren Cole Smith explains why he cannot support Mitt Romney’s candidacy for President of the United States. “A Vote for Romney is a Vote for the LDS Church” reminded me of the sort of anti-Catholic screeds that were widely published during the presidential candidacy of Senator John F. Kennedy.

Catholics conversant with the 1960 election will recognize in Mr. Smith’s piece the sort of histrionics that were employed against them and their faith in the not-too-distant past. Consider this excerpt from Smith's essay:

The Christian worldview teaches that there is a short tether binding beliefs to the values and behaviors that flow from them. If the beliefs are false, then the behavior will eventually – but inevitably – be warped. Mormonism is particularly troubling on this point because Mormons believe in the idea of “continuing revelation.” They may believe one thing today, and something else tomorrow. This is why Mormons have changed their views, for example, on marriage and race. Polygamy was once a key distinctive of the religion. Now, of course, it is not. Mormons once forbade blacks from leadership roles. Now they do not. What else will change? Where to begin? First, the claim that “if beliefs are false, then the behavior will eventually – but inevitably – be warped,” depends on the plausibility of the belief in question and not on the overall plausibility of the worldview from which it heralds. For example, suppose that Mr. X, a Mormon, believes that marriage is a one-flesh communion between one man and one woman, and thus he aligns himself with the Catholic tradition, though he believes this understanding of marriage because he heard it from a Mormon prophet and he believes that the prophet speaks infallibly on such matters.

Although, as a Catholic, I do not believe that Mormon prophets are real prophets, this does not mean I believe that Mormon prophets may not utter true beliefs. After all, Mormonism developed out of nineteenth century American Protestantism, which is itself the result of the sixteenth century schism within Catholic Christianity. For that reason, it should not be a surprise to discover that the LDS [Latter Day Saints] get a lot of things right about the nature of the moral life and civil society, even though one may have good reason to believe that Mormonism as a theological tradition is mistaken.

Mitt Romney: Should his Mormonism trouble Catholics?

So, there is nothing incoherent in saying that one may have good reasons to reject a particular theological tradition, such as Mormonism, Islam, or Christian Science, while at the same time claiming that the tradition embraces beliefs that are nevertheless true. Mr. Smith, however, seems to believe that a belief is false if it is tethered to a worldview that is false. But that cannot be right, since it is overwhelmingly the case that people who hold a religious faith we think is mistaken are able to quite easily hold true beliefs that are derived from that faith but can be defended as true independently of it.

Second, Mr. Smith seems to be claiming that because LDS theology has changed over time based on the directives of an unaccountable magisterium, therefore, Mormon candidates cannot be trusted to hold those beliefs that they presently hold in common with traditional Christians. This is reminiscent of the old anti-Catholic canard that one ought not to vote for Senator Kennedy because he will take orders from the pope. So, just as a Catholic candidate must unthinkingly listen to the Supreme Pontiff (as it was often depicted during the 1960 election), an LDS candidate must obey his capricious and authoritarian leadership as well.

But in both cases the critic holds a one-dimensional and superficial understanding of doctrinal development. Take, for example, the two LDS cases cited by Mr. Smith – polygamy and the priesthood. In both cases the LDS Church has moved in the direction of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the Reformers, all of which have rejected polygamy as well as racial tests for clerical office. So, far from being a sign that portends to a theologically arbitrary LDS future, these shifts are positive and reasonable developments in Mormon doctrine that traditional Christians should applaud and support. That is, one may view these shifts as evidence that Mormonism is moving closer to the moral and doctrinal commitments of the Christian communities from which it sprang in the nineteenth century.

Third, it seems that the changes within Mormonism are far more modest than the sort one finds within Mr. Smith’s own Evangelical Protestantism. For example, on the matters of women’s ordination, abortion, contraception, divorce, eternal punishment, Chalcedonian formulation of the Incarnation, infant baptism, ecclesiology, the nature of God, and even the inerrancy of Scripture, Evangelicals have held a wide variety of views over the past fifty years, all of which are considered by many Evangelical scholars as well within the bounds of orthodoxy.

But unlike Mormonism, or even Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, there is no magisterium within Evangelicalism that is constrained by the doctrinal pronouncements of its predecessors, such as in church councils or in official catechisms. Pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback Church has far more latitude for changing his church’s doctrine than do Pope Benedict XVI and Mormon President Thomas S. Monson in tinkering with their own.

The lesson to be learned here is that one should examine another’s theological tradition with at least as much charity and rigor as one expects others to assess one’s own. (I know that this last sentence will probably come back to haunt me).

Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He is the author or editor of over a dozen books including Politics for Christians: Statecraft as Soulcraftand The New Mormon Challenge: Responding to the Latest Defenses of a Fast Growing Movement, finalist for the 2003 Gold Medallion Award in theology and doctrine.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; catholicism; covertmittbot; inman; mittromney; mormonism; romney; slickmitt
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1 posted on 10/26/2011 8:31:34 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21

Well done, especially considering the childish contempt you earlier experienced.


2 posted on 10/26/2011 8:52:59 PM PDT by wita
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To: wita

My point all along has been that Evangelicals ought to look at the plank in their own eyes when it comes to where their beliefs square with those of the early Christians before they judge the Mormons.

I was raised in a Protestant home, but I left when I started seeing that early Christian belief and Protestant teaching were worlds apart.


3 posted on 10/26/2011 9:07:30 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21
Evangelicals ought to look at the plank in their own eyes when it comes to where their beliefs square with those of the early Christians before they judge the Mormons.

Please explain.

4 posted on 10/26/2011 9:12:07 PM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: dragonblustar

Read the Church fathers and find out for yourself. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

“To know history is to cease to be a Protestant” - Bl. John Henry Cardinal Newman

Virtually every single belief Evangelicals attack Catholics for believing was taught by the early Christians.


5 posted on 10/26/2011 9:20:23 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21

The thread discusses beliefs of non-Catholics and therefore does not qualify for the “Catholic Caucus” label. It will be removed.


6 posted on 10/26/2011 9:24:17 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: rzman21
Just rule out RINO liars and you rule out Romney before even caring what religion he claims to take seriously. I don't see how anyone who is a Conservative ever even considers him when he has bragged about RomneyCare. Knowing anything about him other than that is more information than you need to rule out voting for and supporting him. If Mormons all vote for him then they're just proving that as a group they're every bit as stupid as black folks 97% of whom voted for Barry.
7 posted on 10/26/2011 9:47:06 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: rzman21

Romney. Not a baptized Christian. If sacramental grace is not a necessity of the Presidency, then it might not be a problem. But add in the fact that Mitt and his inner circle are corrupt ...


8 posted on 10/26/2011 10:12:42 PM PDT by campaignPete R-CT (I will go back to New Hampshire to campaign.)
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To: rzman21

I have serious objections to this particular analysis. It is unfortunate.

Yes, there are many things that Mormons believe that Catholics also believe. However, the differences are wide and broad.

As much as I dislike the Anglicans, my Anglican baptism is accepted by the Catholic church. They would not do so for the Mormons.

That alone should be the first sign that the gulf is broader between Catholicism and Mormonism than between any of the Protestants.


9 posted on 10/26/2011 10:34:36 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: BenKenobi

I agree. However, it is true that evangelicalism has become less and less orthodox during the past forty years. I would, however empty many South Baptists who are more dogmatic in their teachings than many of them realize. They cling to an interpretation of Scripture that is closer to that of the chief Reformers than do many of the other mainstream denominations.


10 posted on 10/26/2011 10:47:04 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: rzman21

I’m of the opinion (and my fellow Freepers are free to disagree with me on this) that a man’s faith is his own business. Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, Adventists, Christian Scientists, etc. etc, whatever you believe, as long as you’re a person of character, who displays integrity in his or her affairs and has the courage of his convictions, then I care little for how you choose to worship your Creator.

I don’t care that Mitt Romney is a Mormon. I know many Mormons, indeed I have Mormon friends, and they are good, decent people with whom I have no quarrel. While I may think that some of their beliefs are misguided, or even somewhat silly, I respect their freedom to worship as they choose and if their understanding of God is different than my own, well, so be it.

What I do care about is that Mitt Romney is a phony, a man who I believe wants to be the President so badly that he would say whatever it took to be elected to that office. I have no idea what he believes in, nor do I care much, because his positions shift according to the political winds and when he speaks, I don’t hear conviction, rather I hear desire for power. He would be an absolute disaster as a candidate and I truly think the Republican establishment is making a terrible mistake if they back him for high office.

I won’t vote for a man I don’t respect, and I don’t respect Mitt Romney. Period, point blank. It has nothing to do with him being a Mormon, it has everything to do with his insincerity and naked lust for power.


11 posted on 10/26/2011 11:03:55 PM PDT by NMCicero
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To: rzman21

Religion matters...much like race

JFK did not get 80% of the Catholic vote in 1960 for having good hair


12 posted on 10/26/2011 11:09:06 PM PDT by wardaddy (This GOP field sux)
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To: Rashputin
Rash: Just rule out RINO liars and you rule out Romney before even caring what religion he claims to take seriously

That's a very good point -- I didn't even need to think about what religion Ro-ro believes in to reject him, there's enough rot in his political beliefs.

13 posted on 10/27/2011 12:41:29 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos; Rashputin

Exactly. If Mitt Romney were a constitutional conservative, I wouldn’t care if he burned incense to the Flying Purple People Eater. There are worse qualities in a politician than being a total nut - and being a completely predictable afficionado of big government is one of them.

I don’t know what Rick Perry’s or Herman Cain’s precise religious beliefs are. I’m interested in their potential to destroy the federal government behemoth. I know Rick Santorum is a faithful Catholic with whom I likely have very few religious differences - but I also know he’s a government-snuggler.


14 posted on 10/27/2011 5:36:39 AM PDT by Tax-chick (You can tell them I just sailed away.)
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To: Tax-chick
" ... government-snuggler."

Oh, I like that. I makes me think of an adult wearing PJs with foots in them sitting in the lap of huge stuffed bear with a fur covered face like Joseph Stalin complete with a pipe in its' mouth and a big red star on its' cap.

15 posted on 10/27/2011 8:45:26 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Religion Moderator; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; svcw; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; ...

Too bad there isn’t an “anti-Christian” label available for this thread.


16 posted on 10/27/2011 9:18:59 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (If other churches were dead dunking mormons to save them mormons would be furious.)
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To: greyfoxx39

I agree.


17 posted on 10/27/2011 9:34:53 AM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: greyfoxx39

Busy little beaver...

at least one of the threads started out as a “Catholic Caucus” of all things...

Whats that about ???


18 posted on 10/27/2011 9:47:31 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
Whats that about ???

This stinks to high heaven of "retread"...the only arrow in their quiver is to follow their early leaders and denigrate Christianity and Christians.

19 posted on 10/27/2011 10:00:09 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (If other churches were dead dunking mormons to save them mormons would be furious.)
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To: rzman21
My point all along has been that Evangelicals ought to look at the plank in their own eyes when it comes to where their beliefs square with those of the early Christians before they judge the Mormons.

A very poor attempt at moral equivalency n00b. As many have already pointed out, the variation between the beliefs of Evangelicals and the early Christians is miniscule when compared to the vast gulf that exists between mormonism and the early church.

Most of the NT was written in response to false teachers who called themselves "christian" and exposed those false doctrines they tried to bring into the early church. Are you going to tell us that you believe that the Apostle Paul had a plank in his eye when he suggested to the Galatians that the false teachers there should essentially castrate themselves?

I would point out that the context of the 'plank' reference by Jesus, it was against hypocritical judging of a persons motivations and heart attitudes. It has nothing to do with the teachings of their religion.

This same Jesus commands us to judge righteous judgement. Infact, just a few verses after the 'plank' Jesus tell us to beware “dogs” and “pigs” so that we don’t waste time giving them knowledge of God. The only way you can detect a metaphorical “dog” or “pig” is to judge other people’s actions!

BTW, in your statement, you are guilty of exactly what you are accusing others of. What gives you the right to judge?

20 posted on 10/27/2011 10:04:39 AM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: rzman21
I was raised in a Protestant home, but I left when I started seeing that early Christian belief and Protestant teaching were worlds apart.

Thank GOD that the CATHOLICS haven't changed!

21 posted on 10/27/2011 11:35:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Religion Moderator; rzman21
The thread discusses beliefs of non-Catholics and therefore does not qualify for the “Catholic Caucus” label. It will be removed.

I'm beginning to think that RZMAN21 is an EXcatholic; TURNED mormon!

22 posted on 10/27/2011 11:37:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Tennessee Nana
You left out the... "HMMmmm..."



23 posted on 10/27/2011 11:42:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Rashputin

Excellent imagery! Mr. Santorum shows every sign of believing that government’s gun-to-the-head can be used to support the warm and fuzzy results he prefers, without turning into a monster. I find it odd that an adult man with, apparently, some functionality in daily life could be so naive.


24 posted on 10/27/2011 12:44:00 PM PDT by Tax-chick (You can tell them I just sailed away.)
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To: Elsie

QUESTIONS FOR MITT ROMNEY

Compiled by Richard Packham

News reports say that Governor Romney. looking ahead to the possibility of presenting himself as a candidate for the U.S. presidency in 2008, is meeting privately with Christian leaders to allay their concerns about the fact that he is a Mormon. (See Boston Globe, Nov 2, 2006 at http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/11/02/romney_consults_evangelical_leaders ) These leaders apparently are concentrating on areas such as Romney’s view of gay marriage, abortion, and whether Romney is really a Christian. Undoubtedly Romney’s answers in those areas will satisfy most of these Christian leaders.

However, not knowing much about Mormon doctrine and practices, most Christians are unaware of some of the areas in which the idea of a Mormon as president would raise serious doubts in their minds. They simply don’t know what to ask the governor.

Below are some suggested questions which should be asked of Governor Romney, both by Christian leaders and by journalists.

According to Mormon scripture, the founder of your church (Joseph Smith) was told by God in 1820 that all the churches of the day were “an abomination.” Do you agree with God’s view of other churches, as quoted by Joseph Smith? (Pearl of Great Price, JS-Hist 1:18-19)

According to your church’s Articles of Faith, number eight, the Book of Mormon is the “word of God.” Do you believe that?

According to the Book of Mormon there are only two churches: the “church of the Lamb of God [presumably the Mormon church]” and the “church of the devil,” “the whore of all the earth.” Do you agree with that Mormon scripture? (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

According to the Book of Mormon a dark skin is a curse imposed by God on the unrighteous and their descendants as a punishment for sin. Do you agree with that doctrine? (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 12:22-23, Alma 3:6, 2 Nephi 5:21-22, Jacob 3:8, 3 Nephi 2:15-16, Mormon 5:15; references to the “Lamanites” are taken to be referring to Native American “Indians”.)

According to Mormon doctrine, the president of the Mormon church is a prophet of God, receiving revelations and commandments (God’s laws) directly from God. Do you believe that? (Doctrine and Covenants , 21:5, 43:3, 58:18)

One of the most sacred rituals for adult Mormons, performed only in a Mormon temple, is a ceremony called “the endowment.” Have you undergone this ritual? If so, in what year?

To be admitted to the temple for the endowment ceremony a Mormon must be “in good standing” in the church and undergo a personal interview with church leaders, who examine the member as to whether the member obeys church commandments, supports church leaders, pays full ten percent tithe, wears the prescribed Mormon underwear, abstains from coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco and extramarital sex, and other matters. If the member answers correctly, a pass to the temples (called a “temple recommend”) is issued, good for two years. Do you have such a temple recommend now, indicating that you are in good standing in your church?

In the secret Mormon temple ceremony Mormons take an oath of obedience to “the law of the Lord.” Did you take that oath?

Before 1990, the endowment ceremony required members to take an oath of secrecy not to reveal anything that happened in the temple under penalty of death. Did you take that oath?

In the temple ceremony Mormons also take a secret oath to “consecrate your time, talents and everything which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...” Did you take that oath? Would you consider the office of the presidency of the U.S. to be a “blessing” with which the Lord had blessed you?

Mormons teach that by obedience to all the commandments of Mormonism, a Mormon may attain the highest degree of heaven and ultimately become a god, creating and ruling over his own universe. Do you believe that? Is this your ultimate personal goal?

Although your church presently condemns the practice of polygamy, the scripture commanding it is still in the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132. Many early Mormons were polygamous and married (”sealed”) to numerous wives “for eternity.” Do you believe then that there will be polygamous families in Mormon heaven?

The extensive interest of Mormons in genealogical research is to enable them to perform “baptisms for the dead,” thus posthumously inducting previous generations into the Mormon church. Many non-Mormons become angry when they learn that the names of their ancestors - having often been faithful members of some other religion during life - have been used in this way. often without permission of the living descendants. The posthumous baptism of many Holocaust victims caused considerable anger among Jewish groups, and your church agreed to stop the practice as to them (but admitted that it was unable to do so). Do you feel that such anger is justified? (Would you feel anger if some voodoo cult was using your deceased grandparents’ names in some voodoo ritual, and then announcing to all the world that they were now voodoo worshippers?)

It is well documented that Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, secretly had many wives. Some of those women were at the same time married to other men, some were as young as fifteen, He claimed that he was commanded by God to enter into these marriages. Do you feel that these early marital practices of the church founder were really commanded by God? (See the book In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Mormon historian Todd Compton for detailed biographies of these wives.)

Mormons believe that when Christ returns to earth, a millennium of peace will begin under Christ’s rule (Article of Faith number ten), presumably as a single theocracy. Most Mormons believe that during that time, Mormons will be Christ’s appointed officers and that the law will conform to Mormon teachings. Do you believe that?

According to Mormon scripture (Doctrine and Covenants 135:3) Joseph Smith did more than any other man except Jesus Christ “for the salvation of men in this world.” Do you agree with that, keeping in mind the contributions of men like the Apostles, Saint Paul, Thomas Aquinas, Saint Augustine, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, and others?

http://packham.n4m.org/romney.htm


25 posted on 10/27/2011 12:47:27 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (If we give Sandy a ladder will she preach from the temple roof)
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To: Rashputin

Romney’s politics are fair game. Theological orthodox, however, is not a criteria for the presidency.

Just look at the numbers of presidents who were Freemasons or Unitarians.


26 posted on 10/27/2011 1:04:19 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Godzilla

Have you ever read the Church fathers on matters of sacramental grace, Church authority, etc.?

Mormonism has a lot more in common with the Gnostic sects that were prevalent in the early centuries.

Perhaps the gulf between Catholicism and Mormonism might be further than between Catholicism and Evangelicalism, but that doesn’t make Evangelicalism any more orthodox.

Lutherans have retained far more of apostolic tradition, especially when it comes to the sacraments and ordained ministry than Baptists have, but that doesn’t change the heterodoxy of Lutheran beliefs about grace and Sola Scriptura.

I don’t have the right to judge your soul, but I have the right to judge your beliefs because the Church has already judged them, assuming you are a Protestant.


27 posted on 10/27/2011 1:10:52 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Elsie

You are hysterical.


28 posted on 10/27/2011 1:22:14 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Godzilla

From my perspective as a Catholic. Evangelicalism has kept half of the original loaf of apostolic Christianty while Mormonism has kept a quarter of a loaf.

But you still only have half of a loaf.


29 posted on 10/27/2011 1:32:18 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21
I don’t have the right to judge your soul, but I have the right to judge your beliefs because the Church has already judged them, assuming you are a Protestant.

Then you better pull the beam out of YOUR eye rz, because judging the doctrines is what is being done.

Mormonism has a lot more in common with the Gnostic sects that were prevalent in the early centuries.

Incase you haven't figured out, mormonism is sometimes referred to as American gnosticism by some.

Perhaps the gulf between Catholicism and Mormonism might be further than between Catholicism and Evangelicalism, but that doesn’t make Evangelicalism any more orthodox.

If you believe that then your understanding of mormonism is very poor.

Have you ever read the Church fathers on matters of sacramental grace, Church authority, etc.?

I have read some of the ANF writings - though no where exhaustive. In any case I do not consider their writings superior to what is preserved in the bible.

30 posted on 10/27/2011 1:37:43 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: rzman21
Perhaps the gulf between Catholicism and Mormonism might be further than between Catholicism and Evangelicalism, but that doesn’t make Evangelicalism any more orthodox.

Yet the core essentials remain the same - Evangelicals are as Christian as Catholics or Lutherians. Check out the Vatican II writings.

Yet those same core essentials are denied by mormonism, which makes them inelegible to be grouped with the rest of Christianity.

31 posted on 10/27/2011 1:40:30 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: rzman21; Godzilla; greyfoxx39; Tennessee Nana; Elsie
between Catholicism and Evangelism or Lutheranism and Evangelism, we still believe in ONE God, in much of the tenets of the Nicene Creed and in Jesus Christ as God with the Father and the Holy Spirit

The Mormon religion is polytheistic. J Smith may have taken bits and pieces out of the Revival movement in the 1800s, but his "theology" is not the same.

Mormonism to use your analogy, hasn't kept a quarter of a loaf but rather eats rice instead of bread.

Mormonism is even crazier than the earlier Gnostic heresies, because those at least were heresies

Mormonism is a polytheistic religion with inherent dislogic in it (it cannot be an offshoot of Judeo-Christianity as we are monotheists), so theologically they are completely different from all stripes of Christians

While Evanglicals, Pentecostals, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutheans, Anglicans, Methodists etc. will fight among each other, we are still all under the umbrella term "Christians".

Mormons are not

32 posted on 10/27/2011 2:06:28 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: rzman21; Godzilla; greyfoxx39; Tennessee Nana; Elsie
Evangelicals are as Christian as Catholics or Lutherians.

Which is correct -- we do not re-Baptize a person validly baptised by Trinitarian baptism in a Lutheran etc. Church, yet the Church rejects Mormon "baptism" as non-Christian.

33 posted on 10/27/2011 2:08:22 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos

While Evanglicals, Pentecostals, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutheans, Anglicans, Methodists etc. will fight among each other, we are still all under the umbrella term “Christians”.

Mormons are not
______________________________________

Exactly

We Christians agree on the virgin birth.. that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived... that she did not have sex in order to get pregnantwith Him...

The Mormons say their Mormon god who was once a man came down to Earth and had sex with Mary...

While we Christians agree on the Trinity,

the Mormons deny “God in Three Persons”

While we Christians agree that Jesus shed His blood on the Cross and He died on the Cross to save us,

Mormons claim that salvation or as they called it “atonement” happened in the Garden of Gethsemenee when their Mormon jesus sweated blood and that the Cross has nothing to do with salvation...

and so on...


34 posted on 10/27/2011 2:22:41 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: rzman21

Ya know; OTHER folk have noticed that, too!


35 posted on 10/27/2011 2:46:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Cronos; rzman21; greyfoxx39; Tennessee Nana; Elsie
While Evanglicals, Pentecostals, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutheans, Anglicans, Methodists etc. will fight among each other, we are still all under the umbrella term "Christians".

Indeed you are correct Cronos. So in the excellent comparison you did between Christianity and mormonism doctinally there are no 'beams' or such - it is a pretty straight across evaluation in which mormonism doesn't even come close to Christianity.

Perhaps some need to study up on their doctrines so that difference is more evident to them.

36 posted on 10/27/2011 2:54:59 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla

Ya know “militant Catholicism always makes me suspect. It is very unusual to my experience and I have had more than a little time working together as a Christian of the protestant flavor with fellow Catholic Christians.

Also I know from my time as an Orthodox Christian that the gulf between all three of us is far narrower than any sea between the three of us and the LDS.


37 posted on 10/27/2011 3:33:39 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Cronos

The Mormons aren’t Trinitarians, so according to the ancient canons their baptisms are invalid.

Frankly, I think the Catholic Church should return to the pre-Vatican II practice of conditionally baptizing Protestants who baptize in Jesus’s name or who reject sacramental grace.

http://bit.ly/t93TIo

Mormon baptism lacks what Catholic theology calls “proper intent,” so by the same reasoning Reformed and Baptist baptisms should be regarded as having the same efficacy.

In my Melkite eparchy, Protestants are almost always received by conditional baptism.

Lutheran baptism is valid because it has the same form and intention as Catholic/Orthodox baptism.


38 posted on 10/27/2011 3:33:39 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21
The Catholic Church has not pronounced that Mormon's aren't Christians in a blanket sense. c) Form of Celebration Presupposing the dispensation from the impediment of disparity of cult, the celebration of such a marriage can become particularly sensitive in regard to the canonical and liturgical form. On the one hand, there is no doubt that the canonical form is obligatory for the validity of the marriage between a Catholic and a Mormon (can. 1117); nevertheless, the ordinary of the place can grant a dispensation, observing the conditions prescribed in canon 1127 §2. However, it is well to remember that, although the Mormons can perhaps be considered Christians socially, in the ecclesiastical forum they are to be considered non baptized and therefore for the dispensation from the canonical form there must be applied the criteria that the Bishops' Conference has established for the dispensation from the form in marriages between a Catholic and an non baptized person (can. 1128, 1127 §2). http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-navarrete_en.html It should be remembered that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize Protestant bodies as being true Churches as it does with the Orthodox because they lack the Eucharist.
39 posted on 10/27/2011 3:39:06 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Cronos

Not really. The Mormons are neo-Gnostics.
http://www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm

Many gnostics were polytheists believing in an evil god and a good god.

Mormonism is a Christian heresy, and so is Protestantism.


40 posted on 10/27/2011 3:46:26 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Godzilla

In case you didn’t realize Gnosticism is regarded as a heretical form of Christianity by some.


41 posted on 10/27/2011 3:48:21 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21
In case you didn’t realize Gnosticism is regarded as a heretical form of Christianity by some.

Sure - by some - and still outside of orthodox (please note small 'o') Christianity and is non-Christian by virtue of its denial of the essentials of Christianity.

Others will note that some of those forms of gnosticism developed separately from Christianity and attempted to incorporate components of Christianity into its system.

Either way - non-Christian.

42 posted on 10/27/2011 3:59:37 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla

That was news to St. Irenaeus of Lyons who attacked it as a Christian heresy in the 2nd century.

If I apply the strict standard of some of the Church fathers like St. Augustine then Protestants aren’t really Christians because they deserted the Catholic Church almost 500 years ago.

Your attacking the Mormons is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/church.htm

Schism

“Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Why do we divide and tear to pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that “we are members one of another?” Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, “Woe to that man [by whom offences come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones. Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth.”
Clement of Rome[regn c.A.D. 91-101],To the Corinthians,46(A.D. 91),in ANF,I:17-18

“Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God.”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Ephesians,5(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:51

“For there are many wolves in sheep’s clothing, who, by means of a pernicious pleasure, carry captive(3) those that are running towards God; but in your unity they shall have no place.”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Philadelphians,2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:80

“Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.]”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Philadelphians,3(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:80

“For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar.”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Philadelphians,4(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:81

“But flee from all abominable heresies, and those that cause schisms, as the beginning of evils.”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Smyrnaens,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

“See that ye follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father.”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Smyrnaens,8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

“But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did.”
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4,26:2(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:497

“Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church.”
Cyprian, To Florentius,Epistle 68[66]:8(A.D. 254),in ANF,V:375

“Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree,—when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated.”
Cyprian,Unity of the Church,5(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:423

“The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church...He who does not hold this unity does not hold God’s law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.”
Cyprian,Unity of the Church,5(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:423

“What does the fierceness of wolves do in the Christian breast? What the savageness of dogs, and the deadly venom of serpents, and the sanguinary cruelty of wild beasts? We are to be congratulated when such as these are separated from the Church, lest they should lay waste the doves and sheep of Christ with their cruel and envenomed contagion.”
Cyprian,Unity of the Church,9(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:424

“Let none think that the good can depart from the Church. The wind does not carry away the wheat, nor does the hurricane uproot the tree that is based on a solid root. The light straws are tossed about by the tempest, the feeble trees are overthrown by the onset of the whirlwind.”
Cyprian,Unity of the Church,9(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:424

“Do they deem that they have Christ with them when they are collected together, who are gathered together outside the Church of Christ?”
Cyprian,Unity of the Church,13(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:426

“Only-Begotten. At this time the altogether wicked heretics and ignorant schismatics are in the same case; the one in that they slay the Word, the other in that they rend the coat.”
Athanasius,Festal Letter 6,6(A.D. 334),in NPNF2,IV:521

“For you have said, among other things, that schismatics are cut off like branches from the vine, and, being destined for punishment, are reserved like dry wood for the fires of Gehenna.”
Optatus of Mileve,The Schism of the Donatist,1:10(A.D. 367),in OPT,10

“Indeed it would be monstrous to feel pleasure in the schisms and divisions of the Churches, and not to consider that the greatest of goods consists in the knitting together of the members of Christ’s body.” Basil,To Evagrius,Epistle 156:1(A.D. 373),in NPNF2,VIII:211

“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop.”
Jerome,Commentaries on the Epistle to Titus,3:10(A.D. 386),in JUR,II:194

“And this confession is indeed rightly made by them, for they have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: “I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.”
Ambrose,Concerning Repentance,33(A.D. 390),in NPNF2,X:334

“But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe.”
Augustine,On Faith and Creed,10(A.D. 393),in NPNF1,III:331

“In the time of Donatus, from whom his followers were called Donatists, when great numbers in Africa were rushing headlong into their own mad error, and unmindful of their name, their religion, their profession, were preferring the sacrilegious temerity of one man before the Church of Christ, then they alone throughout Africa were safe within the sacred precincts of the Catholic faith, who, detesting the profane schism, continued in communion with the universal Church, leaving to posterity an illustrious example, how, and how well in future the soundness of the whole body should be preferred before the madness of one, or at most of a few.”
Vincent of Lerins,Commonitories,9(A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:133

“Furthermore, those whom the error of the schismatics severs from the unity of the Church, strive ye, for your own reward, to recall to the unity of concord.”
Gregory the Great[regn A.D. 590-604],To Brunichild,Epistle 11(A.D. 597),in NPNF2,XIII:8


43 posted on 10/27/2011 4:11:55 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21; Cronos
If I apply the strict standard of some of the Church fathers like St. Augustine

You could, but you do not have that authority to speak for the Catholic church as such.

Though the Catholic Church officially sees the Protestantism as 'separated', it does not deny that it falls within the boundries of Christianity.

What I will say is that our religious 'flavor' had nothing to do with those of us who gathered for the day on the Washington mall to pray for our country - nor in dozens of locations across America where Catholic joined their Protestant brethern to honor God. Perhaps you life may be less bitter if you consider those facts.

Your attacking the Mormons is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

Incase you haven't noticed - the official position of the Catholic Church is the same as Protestantism - mormonism is not part of Christianity. And this thread was Mormonism and Catholicism wasn't it?

Paul had this to say about such attitudes as yours -

Rom 16:17 KJV - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

As a former Catholic, I view Catholics as my Christian bretheren. We may scuffle on peripherial issues, but there is no problem with us both affirming our belief in the Apostles or Nicean creeds - which reflect the core of beliefs of Christianity.

Since this thread is about Mormonism and Catholism, you may want to keep it there. If you want to stir up trouble - you know how to start a new thread.

44 posted on 10/27/2011 4:45:52 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's comments about Mormons as Christians is reminiscent of its declaration that Protestant "ecclesial communities" are not Churches. 2. However, it is well to remember that, although the Mormons can perhaps be considered Christians socially, in the ecclesiastical forum they are to be considered non baptized and therefore for the dispensation from the canonical form there must be applied the criteria that the Bishops' Conference has established for the dispensation from the form in marriages between a Catholic and an non baptized person (can. 1128, 1127 §2). http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-navarrete_en.html Mormons are not Christians in the sacramental sense of the word, which is important. But the Catholic Church doesn't go to the extent of many Evangelicals and say they aren't Christians in any sense.
45 posted on 10/27/2011 7:50:46 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21
Mormons can perhaps be considered Christians socially

so you define on the basis of "socially" and a "perhaps" - interesting

Yet the rest of the article points to - doctrinally - mormonism is not Christian in that its baptism is not a valid Christian baptism.

Father Richard John Neuhaus made this observations:

"As is said in the Nicene Creed, "We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church." That reality encompasses doctrine, ministry, liturgy, and a rule of life. Christians disagree about precisely where that Church is to be located historically and at present, but almost all agree that it is to be identified with the Great Tradition defined by the apostolic era through at least the first four ecumenical councils, and continuing in diverse forms to the present day. That is the Christianity that LDS teaching rejects and condemns as an abomination and fraud."

"A closer parallel might be with Islam. Islam is a derivative of Judaism, and Christianity. Like Joseph Smith, Muhammad in the seventh century claimed new revelations and produced in the Qur’an a "corrected" version of the Jewish and Christian scriptures, presumably by divine dictation. Few dispute that Islam is a new and another religion, and Muslims do not claim to be Christian, although they profess a deep devotion to Jesus. Like Joseph Smith and his followers, they do claim to be the true children of Abraham. Christians in dialogue with Islam understand it to be an interreligious, not an ecumenical, dialogue. Ecumenical dialogue is dialogue between Christians. Dialogue with Mormons who represent official LDS teaching is interreligious dialogue."

But the Catholic Church doesn't go to the extent of many Evangelicals and say they aren't Christians in any sense.

But your "catholic" view is that Protestants are not Christian based upon your interpretation of Catholic writings, I find it hard to believe that your 'view' regarding mormonism is any different. Interreligious means non-Christian.

46 posted on 10/27/2011 8:19:07 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: rzman21
Mormon baptism lacks what Catholic theology calls “proper intent,” -- it also severly lacks even the correct Trinitarian formula. Whatever else the Southern Baptists may do, their baptism is according to the Trinitarian formula, hence cannot be compared in any way to Mormon

As you correctly noted Lutheran baptism is valid because it has the same form and intention as Catholic/Orthodox baptism. -- to which you can add in the traditional Anglicans

By just these two exceptions, it proves that we cannot say all Protestants are ... -- that generalization fails.

One can specifically point to a particular denomination, but not a generalization as they are exceptionally different

Mormonism is far more different -- it is not a Christian heresy, but a non-Christian religion.

47 posted on 10/27/2011 9:56:29 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: rzman21; Godzilla
That was news to St. Irenaeus of Lyons who attacked it as a Christian heresy in the 2nd century.

St. Irenaeus attacked Gnosticism as a Christian heresy. Mormonism even in "basic form" did not exist then. Mormonism was created in the 1800s, it is NOT a continuation of any early Christian or pagan thought in any way.

This pagan religion that is Mormonism was a piece of fiction dreamt up by a con-man called J Smith. He took elements of the Revivalist movement, merged it with the interest in Egyptology and put in good ole "burning in the bosom" and came up with his own religion -- of course he let men indulge their urges and get many women, so his new religion was a hit

rzman, you are wrong on one point --> the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically -- since they believe in many gods they are not in the least bit Christian, not even a christian heresy.

48 posted on 10/27/2011 10:06:31 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: rzman21
Mormonism is a Christian heresy, and so is Protestantism.

Dang!

I am SO offended!!

And NOW I am going to devote all my time fighting CATHOLICS instead of MORMONism!


(wink!)

49 posted on 10/28/2011 5:02:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Godzilla
If you want to stir up trouble - you know how to start a new thread.

Resistance is futile!

50 posted on 10/28/2011 5:05:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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