Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Are We Seeing the Beginning of Religious Persecution in America?
Our Sunday Visitor ^ | 11/6/11 | Russell Shaw

Posted on 10/27/2011 8:29:35 AM PDT by marshmallow

Catholic Church agencies are closing their doors under new laws, policies gutting conscience rights

Is America on track for a religious freedom crisis generated by secularists in and out of government bent on pushing churches around on a variety of fronts? Fresh evidence strongly suggests that the answer is yes.

Take what’s been happening lately in Peoria, Ill. In early October, the Diocese of Peoria announced it was discontinuing Catholic Charities foster care services in reaction to a new law requiring state-funded programs to place children with unmarried couples living in civil unions. The diocese said Charities also would withdraw from all its state contracts, said to total $23 million annually.

“I have a responsibility to assure that Catholic Charities operates consistently with the teaching and values of the Church,” explained Peoria Bishop Daniel Jenky.

Earlier, the Diocese of Rockford, Ill., also ended its foster care services. Three other Illinois dioceses — Belleville, Joliet and Springfield — are still fighting the new law in court.

National trend

The events in Illinois mirror a growing national trend. The ability of religious institutions to operate free from government pressure to violate their conscientious convictions has increasingly come under attack.

Repeatedly, the pressure has been brought to bear on churches on behalf of groups ranging from same-sex couples to federal officials backing coverage for contraception and sterilization in religious employers’ health plans. In the eyes of the secular militants, the First Amendment rights of religious institutions are of diminished importance.

In a Sept. 20 letter to President Barack Obama, Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York protested recent administration moves aimed at various Catholic Church programs. Archbishop Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, warned of an impending “national conflict between church and state of enormous proportions” which he said would harm both.......

(Excerpt) Read more at osv.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: christophobia; illinois; persecution

1 posted on 10/27/2011 8:29:38 AM PDT by marshmallow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
One needs to recognize that
this is largely self-inflicted.

Members of the RCC have voted
overwhelmingly
for baby-killing Democrats.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

2 posted on 10/27/2011 8:38:22 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012
And how many Jewish people voted for Obama?
3 posted on 10/27/2011 8:45:14 AM PDT by mtg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

Certainly Christian persecution, I don’t think religious persecution in general. And faux Christianity mixed with paganism and progressive philosophy is still ok. And Islam is “hands off” — protected religion.


4 posted on 10/27/2011 8:46:22 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012

Comment #3 really skewered you! Touche!!!


5 posted on 10/27/2011 8:48:56 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
When a charity completely funded by Catholic donations is forced to conform or fold then that will be persecution.

A Catholic charity that gets its funding from the government has to play by the government's rules however perverse.

Our government is no longer guided by Christian principles so any organization that gets funding from them will have to use the money in ways that are no longer guided by Christian principles.

If you lay down with dogs, etc.

6 posted on 10/27/2011 8:51:27 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mtg
And how many Jewish people voted for Obama?

Only the Atheists.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
7 posted on 10/27/2011 9:01:33 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: steve86
See #7
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

8 posted on 10/27/2011 9:03:53 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: steve86
Touche!!!

pas de touché

9 posted on 10/27/2011 9:16:57 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: mtg

About 70 million Catholics and 6 million Jews in the USA. Obama won by 10 million popular votes.

No realistic hypothesized Jewish votes switching from Obama to McCain would have changed the election’s outcome. Can the same claim be made about Catholic votes?


10 posted on 10/27/2011 9:19:38 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
Are We Seeing the Beginning of Religious Persecution in America?

The title caught my attention. Christians have been persecuted in America for quite a while. My daughter's friend received a death threat for starting a bible club in high school, over 15 years ago. Christians have been unwelcome in universities and Hollywood for quite a while.

11 posted on 10/27/2011 9:27:55 AM PDT by aimhigh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

Here’s my theory:

The rise of militant Islam is a mere side show. The real problem is the rise of the secular worldview that is the the anti-biblical worldview ( ex. the normalization of Homosexuality). At some point the muslims (satan’s useful idiots) will no longer be compatible with New World Order and will have to conform or be disposed of.


12 posted on 10/27/2011 9:44:21 AM PDT by Augustinian monk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
It is time for civil disobedience. In other words, revolution.

Just ignore these STUPID laws. Refuse to cooperate at all. If fined, refuse to pay. What are they going to do arrest the priest? Move church funds to safe locations, out of reach of government.

Just as criminals have discovered that it is unlikely that they will be caught and if caught, unlikely to be convicted, and if convicted, likely to get parole or a light sentence.

We need to start disobeying unconstitutional laws and stupid government mandates. This happens all the time. Dumb laws that people just ignore. We need to do more of this. They (government) just can't enforce the laws if enough people rebel. There aren't enough cops, judges, or jails to do so. That is what revolutions are. Civil disobedience. Hell No, I won't go! or Hell No I won't do it! Stop bending to the will of corrupt government. Stop being Lemmings. Stop jumping off the cliff because they pass some dumb law telling you to do so.

They say, let's pass this law because if X were to happen, it would be devastating.

First question. Has X ever happened? How often does X happen?, compared to what? What adverse consequences will there be for passing X? Does the good out weigh the bad?

Since lawmakers are incapable of common sense, we have to make them irrelevant.

13 posted on 10/27/2011 9:46:55 AM PDT by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear; marshmallow
A Catholic charity that gets its funding from the government has to play by the government's rules however perverse.

When you call something "CatholicCharities"
and it is government funded, it is disingenuous.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
14 posted on 10/27/2011 9:47:39 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: faucetman

A law isn’t a law unless they can enforce it. Without enforcement, a law is meaningless.


15 posted on 10/27/2011 9:50:41 AM PDT by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012
Are you saying that 75-85% of Jewish people are Atheists? Wasn't the percentage that voted for Obama in that range?
16 posted on 10/27/2011 9:52:02 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: steve86

Sorry for the spelling and capitalization errors today: this is not even a true smart phone I’m using and I just broke my glasses!


17 posted on 10/27/2011 9:55:08 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: steve86
Urkel 2012 and two guys he knows are the only people he thinks aren't atheist and Urkel is keeping a watchful eye on one of them.
18 posted on 10/27/2011 10:12:44 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

Hardly the beginning. Just a new change in relativistic social law.

The changes really began in the 1900s when Dewey began pushing for public schools that didn’t teach any one specific religion but just promoted common things from all of them. His goal was to have schools promote a secular humanist morality and get religion out of schools/education (ie society). They wanted to impart a humanist morality. And as all such types of moral systems are relative, they shift and change over time and what was once okay and good becomes bad, and vice versa, depending how the leaders of such institutions wnat ot move things via the Hegelian dialectic process.


19 posted on 10/27/2011 10:14:34 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin; steve86
Urkel 2012 and two guys he knows are the only people he thinks aren't atheist and Urkel is keeping a watchful eye on one of them.

Seek YHvH in His WORD.

Isa 55:6
Seek YHvH while He may be found;
Call upon Him while He is near.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
20 posted on 10/27/2011 10:32:39 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012
There's a whole lot of disingenuousness going on ...

Jewish Charities Look to Stimulus Bill To Stave Off Cuts

21 posted on 10/27/2011 10:57:23 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear
Jewish Forward : Progressive rag

If you steal from others to do your tithes,
YHvH will still see it as stealing.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

22 posted on 10/27/2011 11:05:30 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

As to the question, asked by the headline: yes. But provided that we pray, try to be holy, and trust in the Lord, all is well, regardless.


23 posted on 10/27/2011 12:09:36 PM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jjotto

If Protestants all voted against Obama it wouldn’t even matter how all the Jews and Catholics voted. Most Americans are Protestants. They put Obama and every other president in U.S. history in office.


24 posted on 10/27/2011 12:17:22 PM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
Most Americans are Protestants. They put Obama and every other president in U.S. history in office.

A very bitter pill for a lot of FReepers to swallow! Accepting this fact would also cut down the number of posts by 25% or so.

25 posted on 10/27/2011 12:24:12 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

The beginning???

Sorry, that ship sailed years ago.


26 posted on 10/27/2011 12:44:58 PM PDT by Jack Hammer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
But the stupid liberal Democrat American bishops will go right on winking at this and preaching about "social justice."

There's something fundamentally evil about the Democrat party; once it gets its hooks in a particular ethno-cultural group it seems to be all but impossible to break out. Look how long it took white Southerners to even consider voting Republican. I smell gofrit (that's "brimstone," y'all).

27 posted on 10/27/2011 1:25:29 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Augustinian monk
The rise of militant Islam is a mere side show. The real problem is the rise of the secular worldview that is the the anti-biblical worldview ( ex. the normalization of Homosexuality). At some point the muslims (satan’s useful idiots) will no longer be compatible with New World Order and will have to conform or be disposed of.

Believe it or not, I agree with you. Despite my screen name, I have never been among those "conservatives" who berated moslems for not seeing the wonders of Voltaire and of the eighteenth century European "enlightenment."

28 posted on 10/27/2011 1:29:18 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Secret Agent Man
The changes really began in the 1900s when Dewey began pushing for public schools that didn’t teach any one specific religion but just promoted common things from all of them. His goal was to have schools promote a secular humanist morality and get religion out of schools/education (ie society). They wanted to impart a humanist morality. And as all such types of moral systems are relative, they shift and change over time and what was once okay and good becomes bad, and vice versa, depending how the leaders of such institutions wnat ot move things via the Hegelian dialectic process.

Ever notice that you can't find a single advocate of relativism or situational ethics who isn't absolutely opposed at all times to "racism," "sexism," "homophobia," "discrimination," "equality," etc.?

These "relativists" aren't relativistic about everything.

29 posted on 10/27/2011 1:33:53 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012
"Jewish Forward : Progressive rag"

Prototypical ad hominem argument.

A clear sign of inability or unwillingness to think logically.

I wonder what the all-knowing One thinks of that?

30 posted on 10/27/2011 1:35:02 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
If Protestants all voted against Obama it wouldn’t even matter how all the Jews and Catholics voted. Most Americans are Protestants. They put Obama and every other president in U.S. history in office.

This is sadly 100% true.

We get the government, and the "rulers," that we deserve.

31 posted on 10/27/2011 1:35:48 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear; marshmallow; steve86; mtg; Rashputin; UriĀ’el-2012
Don't mean to start a big hoo-haw, but so far as I know Uri'el is no more Jewish than I am (and I'm not Jewish). He's one of those Fundamentalist Protestants who is convinced that Fundamentalist Protestantism is Judaism, that the Protestant bible is identical to the TaNa"KH, and (I believe) that the Protestant bible is self-authorized, self-authorizing, and self-evidently true.

Uri'el, I apologize if I am mischaracterizing you here, but some of your debate opponents seem to think you're a conventional Orthodox Jew.

32 posted on 10/27/2011 1:44:55 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator
Uri'el, I apologize if I am mischaracterizing you here, but some of your debate opponents seem to think you're a conventional Orthodox Jew.

And I'm responsible for their inability to comprehend ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
33 posted on 10/27/2011 2:01:30 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012
"And I'm responsible for their inability to comprehend ? "

Given the phallicsieze in your arguments, yes. have a nice day

34 posted on 10/27/2011 2:37:50 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012

Oops, I didn’t spell fallacies correctly.


35 posted on 10/27/2011 2:41:42 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012; Zionist Conspirator; marshmallow; steve86; mtg; Rashputin
"And I'm responsible for their inability to comprehend?"

Uriel: You and I might actually agree on whatever point it is you are trying to get across, but you have such a terse and disagreeable way of expressing yourself that whatever that point is is lost on me.

There is also a huge amount of self-righteousness in the way you attempt to communicate which doesn't ever go over very well on FR.

36 posted on 10/27/2011 3:17:48 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Secret Agent Man

Public schools have been and continue to be the seed bed of growing the secular humanism that now thinks teaching five year olds about gay sex is just fine and right.

Christians NEED to LEAVE the public schools.

They ARE destroying this nation!


37 posted on 10/27/2011 3:27:02 PM PDT by TruthConquers (Delendae sunt publicae scholae)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear
You seem to disagree with my analysis
of the Forward
Started by socialists with the
Socialist Labor Party in 1890s.
Involved with the Socialist
Democratic Party of America

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are
engraved in the front of the building.


38 posted on 10/27/2011 3:53:41 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: UriĀ’el-2012
What analysis? You merely said it was a leftist rag.

I reported a fact from there, i.e. that there were lots of self-proclaimed Jewish charities that received much of their funding from the government.

Do you disagree with this fact?

I have been informed that you might not be Jewish in the conventional sense of the word. Regardless, my main point is that any charity, whatever it calls itself, that receives government aid is going to have to modify its behavior to conform to government rules. So I don't believe that forcing some "catholic" or "jewish" charities that collect government funds is a form of religious persecution.

If a religious based charity that received 100% of its funding from private persons was required to kowtow to government rules that infringed on their religious beliefs then that might be construed as religious persecution.

Are those statements you can agree with? Or not?

What point were you trying to make? Sorry if it wasn't as obvious to me as to you. I realize that people on FR love to go off on tangents and make relatively unrelated points such as 'such-and-such is socialist', but I'm hoping you are not one of those people.

39 posted on 10/27/2011 4:16:10 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator
Relativism is really just a form of opportunism. Those at the top of society have the right to decide what is moral —right now. The Roman republic had their basic rules cut in stone so that all might know what they were: this in opposition to the arbitrary power of the kings they had deposed.
40 posted on 10/27/2011 5:57:48 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear

That didn’t save Bob Jones University from federal intervention. If they can punish a school for practicing radical discrimination, they can punish a school for discriminating against gays.


41 posted on 10/27/2011 6:03:11 PM PDT by RobbyS (Back in Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
True.

BTW, "equality" in my post should have read "inequality," but I trust that was easily surmised.

42 posted on 10/27/2011 6:27:43 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
"That didn’t save Bob Jones University from federal intervention. If they can punish a school for practicing radical discrimination, they can punish a school for discriminating against gays."

If a religious institution claims that it is an important part of their belief system that they be able to quietly pray in private, then any government that denied them the ability to do so would rightly be declared tyrannical and guilty of persecution.

If a religious institution claims that they need to engage in human sacrifice of unwilling victims then a government that prevented them from doing so would be considered sane.

The Bob Jones Univ case is one of those borderline cases. Our Constitution has been interpreted to make racial discrimination a crime. Some may argue that that is an incorrect interpretation of our Constitution, but there it is. Under the current generally accepted interpretation Bob Jones Univ was engaging in discrimanatory behavior which the federal government had an obligation to stop. I'm not exactly certain of the particulars. If Bob Jones University had a single student in attendance receiving federal loans, then they would be considered as an institution receiving federal aid and would come under the jurisdiction of all of the appropriate federal laws. This is why places like Hillsdale refuse all federal aid.

If at some point in the future discrimination against gays is put on a par with racial discrimination then the federal government will be required to oppose it regardless of whether a particular institution is getting federal funding. This is the point at which the government would begin persecution.

There would presumably still be a significant number of citizens around who would, for example, oppose gay weddings performed on their premises. If they attempted to prevent such weddings from proceeding and the government tried to stop them then all hell should break lose.

But I wouldn't hold my breath.

43 posted on 10/27/2011 7:18:41 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear
my main point is that any charity, whatever it calls itself, that receives government aid is going to have to modify its behavior to conform to government rules. So I don't believe that forcing some "catholic" or "jewish" charities that collect government funds is a form of religious persecution.

My point exactly.

Calling something "CatholicCharities" while it is
being supported by US Taxpayers is disingenuous.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
44 posted on 10/28/2011 8:23:33 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
Religious persecution? No.
45 posted on 10/28/2011 8:25:23 AM PDT by verity (The Obama Administration is a Criminal Enterprise.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear
What analysis? You merely said it was a leftist rag.

Not to put too fine a point on it:

The Forward has been a Marxist
anarcho-syndicalist newspaper
for well over a hundred years.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
46 posted on 10/28/2011 8:36:00 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: who_would_fardels_bear
Uri'el>Jewish Forward : Progressive rag

Prototypical ad hominem argument.

A clear sign of inability or unwillingness to think logically.

I wonder what the all-knowing One thinks of that?

I believe you are "Projecting".

47 posted on 10/28/2011 8:43:37 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: TruthConquers
Christians NEED to LEAVE the public schools. They ARE destroying this nation!

What you said. They are inherently rotten and Marxist to the care. Yes, I know there are good people working in them, but they are what they are.

48 posted on 10/28/2011 8:53:33 AM PDT by Marathoner (Occupy Wall Street = Parasites on Parade)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson