Skip to comments.Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)
Posted on 10/31/2011 6:33:10 PM PDT by Colofornian
When Mormons use the term saviors to describe other Mormons, its not a figurative or spiritual usage:
When living persons are baptized for the dead, they literally become saviors to others (Part of chapter entitled, How to Become a Savior on Mount Zion: Duty Lesson 12 p. 223 1974-1975 When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren Study Guide 1974)
In light of an agreement made by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not to baptize Jewish holocaust victims, to comply... ...or not to comply. That has been the Jewish-Mormon issue over the years.
The Canadian Jewish News ran an article, Baptizing deceased Jews against Mormon policy: spokesperson in the Summer of 2010. In that article, a member of the Mormons High Council in Santa Monica, Calif. (Mark Paredes), was cited as a representative for the Mormon church on speaking on Mormon-Jewish relations.
Paredes was quoted in that July 2010 article as saying there is 99.99 per cent compliance today with the 1995 memorandum of understanding that was signed between the Mormons, formally the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Jewish leaders. A few years earlier, it had come to light that some Mormons Paredes says it was only eight had submitted the names of tens of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims for what Mormons call proxy immersions for the dead.
Paredes, who until recently was the executive director of the Zionist Organization of Americas western region, said, No one thinks that more than a handful of Mormons, out of nearly 14 million [worldwide] continue to defy the churchs policy [on proxy immersions].
If the Mormons didnt think all of their following could obey them, then why offer such an agreement to begin with?
Paredes, the Mormon representative, claimed that Mormons have never been permitted to baptize the dead beyond their own ancestors? Yet even Lds presidents of the church have done that!!! Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff baptized 100 different people from John Wesley to all but 3 U.S. presidents and 56 Declaration of Independence signers in the late 19th century.
The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George," assured Woodruff. "They called upon us, knowing that we held the keys and power to redeem them. I will here say, before losing, that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized for it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others; I then baptized him for every President of the United States, except three; and when their cause is just, somebody will do the work for them. (Wilford Woodruff, Sept. 16, 1877, Journal of Discourses, 19:229)
So were these Declaration of Independence signers, past U.S. presidents, John Wesley, Columbus and others converted to Mormonism beyond the grave?
Per Paredes, the Mormon representative, he claimed that the Mormon practicing of baptizing dead spirits by proxy is highly inaccurate to refer to proxy immersions as posthumous conversions, making Mormons of the dead, etc. (July 2010, Canadian Jewish News)
Paredes take was interesting. Because if the Mormons whose goal is to convert the dead -- thought they were already saved, we wouldnt have Mormon leaders talking as if they and the rest of the Mormon church were new saviors of the world, now would we?
Mormons like to frame their temple actions toward the dead practices such as... ...baptisms, ...ordinations, ...washings and anointings, ...endowments and sealings -- as proxy means of simply giving dead spirits a choice in the afterlife.
The problem with this revisionism of Mormon history is this is not the way some earlier Mormon prophets framed this temple activity.
For example, Wilford Woodruff, the same Mormon prophet who began halting Mormon polygamy, claimed past-tense redemption via such baptisms of the dead, saying I have had some thousands redeemed here. How does he know they were redeemed if they still had to choose? Did the dead communicate with him?
Here is what he had to say in context:
You have had power to redeem your dead. A great many of you have done this, and I hope all of you will continue as long as you have any dead to redeem. Never cease that work while you have the power to enter into the Temple I have had some thousands redeemed here. I have had baptisms, ordinations, washings and anointings, endowments and sealings for them, the same as if they were standing in the flesh themselves...I held the keys of their salvation (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, pp. 191-192)
Woodruff was one truly obsessed with the dead: There is hardly any principle the Lord has revealed that I have rejoiced more in than in the redemption of our dead (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, pp. 192-193)
The string of Mormon prophets of John Taylor, Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith certainly heavily inculcated the idea that saviors of the dead were plural and they werent talking about Jesus Christ as being THE Savior of the dead!
And, unlike the Bible, which places a definitive THE before Jesus Christ as THE Savior (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14), Mormon prophets have long and consistently preached that the Mormon churches produces saviors plural! (Lds often cite Obadiah 21, which the KJV renders as "saviors"; the NIV makes it clear that these "deliverers" are there to govern the mountains of Esau; not become proxy saviors taking Jesus' role as Savior of the World!)
Lds prophet John Taylor: " ...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163)
Taylor: "We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit (LDS "prophet" John Taylor, March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
Lds prophet Wilford Woodruff: YOU will be recognized as Saviors upon Mount Zion (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, p. 189, 2004)
Woodruff: WE become saviors on Mount Zion as we build temples and receive saving ordinances on behalf of the dead. (Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, p. 187)
Lds prophet Joseph Fielding Smith: ... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (LDS "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
Lds prophet Joseph F. Smith: Teach your children and let yourselves be taught the fact that it is necessary for you to become saviors upon Mount Zion (Joseph F. Smith, Teachings of Presidents: Joseph F. Smith, p. 412, 1998)
Joseph F. Smith: WE have a certain work to do in order to liberate they are unprepared for eternal life: we have to open the door for them, by performing ordinances which they cannot perform for themselves, and which are essential to their release from the prison-house, (Joseph F. Smith, Ibid, p. 410)
The Christian counterclaim is that Jesus Christ has already done that, minus any ritual mumbo-jumbo performed in a man-made temple. Jesus said His personal temple one that would zero in on death and the only real temple worth anything regarding salvation was the temple of His body (John 2:19-21). That body was laid on the cross. He liberated us and opened the door; we are free to walk out of the prison-house of our sin nature, bondage to this world, bondage to Satan, bondage to a fear of death, etc!
Lds prophet Joseph F. Smith emphasized that not only do Lds need to perform every law and every requirement of the (Mormon) gospel for themselves, but for the dead as well:
No man can enter into the Kingdom of God but by the door and through the means that Jesus Christ has offered to the children of men. Not a soul that has ever lived and died from off the face of this earth shall escape a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they receive it and obey it, the ordinances of the gospel will be performed for and in their behalf, by their kindred, or their posterity in some generation of time after them, so that every law and every requirement of the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be carried out, and the promises and requirements fulfilled for the salvation of the living and also for the salvation of the dead. (Teachings of Presidents: Joseph F. Smith, p. 307, 1998; original source Latter-day Saints Follow Teachings of the Savior, Scrap Book of Mormon Literature, 2 vols. 2:561-562).
In other words, Jesus proxy blood didnt fulfill the requirements and debt-payments and falling short of fulfilling the law. Mormon proxy sweat labor has to fulfill that. And for how many of the dead of history?
The work of saving the dead has practically been reserved for the dispensation of the fullness of times, when the Lord shall restore all things. It is, therefore, the duty of the Latter-day Saints to see that it is accomplished. WE cannot do it all at once, but will have the 1,000 years of the millennium to do it in. In that time the work must be done in behalf of the dead of the previous 6,000 years, for all who need it. (Lds prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:166)
From the article: Paredes, the Mormon representative, claimed that Mormons have never been permitted to baptize the dead beyond their own ancestors? Yet even Lds presidents of the church have done that!!! Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff baptized 100 different people from John Wesley to all but 3 U.S. presidents and 56 Declaration of Independence signers in the late 19th century.
From the article: Mormons like to frame their temple actions toward the dead practices such as...
...washings and anointings,
...endowments and sealings
-- as proxy means of simply giving dead spirits a choice in the afterlife. The problem with this revisionism of Mormon history is this is not the way some earlier Mormon prophets framed this temple activity. For example, Wilford Woodruff, the same Mormon prophet who began halting Mormon polygamy, claimed past-tense redemption via such baptisms of the dead, saying I have had some thousands redeemed here. How does he know they were redeemed if they still had to choose? Did the dead communicate with him?
Since you have stated time and time again that you believe that Mormonism is a bunch of hooey, what difference does it make? I don’t get it. You use the word “literal” - what on earth?
How many Mormon threads does this make for you today?
You’re on a roll. Methinks you’re eating too much sugar from the kiddie’s buckets.
When one considers that the "inventor" of their cult was an adulterer, stone reader, embezzler, and major con-man, then I guess they can think that they can be anything.
But any decently informed Christian has nothing but pity for them to be so horribly mislead by the teachings of the LDS.
May Joseph Smith, Jr., rest in peace on the planet Kolob (which he hasn't told us where to find it). And may his 40+ wives rest in peace with him. Maybe if he'd left his magic stones back here in Ohio, we could find the money he embezzled from the citizens in Kirtland . . . they don't talk much about Kirtland.
No, SD - reading comprehension time. Mormons used the word "literal"
(Part of chapter entitled, How to Become a Savior on Mount Zion: Duty Lesson 12 p. 223 1974-1975 When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren Study Guide 1974)
How many people on this forum scream and yell that the earth is only 6,000 + or - years old?
They take the Bible as the “literal” truth.
Who put the Bible together? Wasn’t GOD. Was a bunch of MEN sitting around deciding on the most politically expedient expedient.
Sandy there ya go again...
Meknows you iz over the target
Bombs away !!!
Bigheadfred, I wonder if I could tempt you with some Chuck Missler off of YOUTUBE? Look him up and twist your moustache a bit on evolution, time, light, clones, and other subjects...
Once again - vomit!
mormonISM is sick and a blasphemy of the Bible.
'Cause Mormon leaders used that word...but you don't read the Melchizedek study guides that mentioned that...'cause Mormon leaders don't allow women to be part of the 'priesthood' -- unlike the Protestant church that recognizes the "Priesthood of ALL believers" (1 Peter 2:4-9; Rev. 1:6)
What on earth?
Saundra, that's why this series is called The OTHER World -- the demonic world that serves as its source ... and unintended focus...
mormonISM is more than hooey - it the the blasphemy of God Almighty’s Word.
It is not mormon threads it is mormonISM threads.
Why are you so obsessed with Mormonism? Worship how you see fit, and allow others to do the same. There is a great deal of religious bigotry on this site, mostly from those who profess to be Christians.
Godzilla: No, SD - reading comprehension time. Mormons used the word "literal"
After years of reading the hit-and-run style employed by posters like her I believe I may have noticed a trend. <rolleyes>
Telling the truth about Mormonism doesn't seem to be the objective. Obscuring the truth and diverting attention seems to be the objective.
You tell ‘er, Daddy.
SUREly they can do as well as their adored founder and Leader: Joseph Smith!
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Slap the hand when it reaches into your bag!
The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535541
I'm glad you settled THAT conundrum!
"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."---Joseph Knight's journal.
"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.
"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.
In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:
"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."
"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)
In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12June 15, 1879, pp. 190-91.)
Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"("A New Witness for Christ in America,"Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)
"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.
That's tellin' 'em!!
Sandy is not interested in mormonISM she appears to be interested only in mormons. If she were truly interested in mormonISM it would seem that she would leave mormonISM and embrace Christianity, as mormonISM is anti-Christian.
See my tagline.
Wait a minute? I can baptized for the living as a well...breathing and now symbol of LDS?
When did this Shiite happen?
Why was I not consulted about a decision so important?
What information is required for LDS “members” to do this?
But you’re not Mormon, erh, Christian...right?
Why does it matter? Is there a bag limit on FR now?
Any comment on the substance of the post?
Didn’t think so.
Just use a little “trick” from the Alinsky handbook.
I'm still waiting to read the threads posted by FR mormons providing sourced articles regarding mormon beliefs.
I'm sure there are plenty of occasions where mormon leaders contradicted the statements shown in Colofornian's posts, right? Let's see them instead of the constant whining and ad hominems.
Mormonism's Demands of Christians
They demand that Christians not only recognize them as equal, but are expected to grant them equality while the non-Biblical doctrines and practices and denial of Christian beliefs are to be NOW (under the Mormonism Affirmative Action rule), left intact even though they have been inimical to settled and accepted Christianity since the inception of mormonism by Joseph Smith.
Mormonism not only demands a "seat at the Christian banquet table", it demands to set the menu, control the guest list, collect the funds from the ticket sales, and choose its own non-Biblical unedited and false message from its chosen speaker, all the while whining about being persecuted.
Thank you for this thread
Mormons have hated me and my Christian beliefs ande my family and their Christian beliefs for 180 years..
A couple of exposing threads over a couple of weeks or months hardly makes up for all the pain and hatred sent our way from the devotees of Joseph Smith...
Paredes, the Mormon representative, claimed that Mormons have never been permitted to baptize the dead beyond their own ancestors?
He can “claim” all he wants to
but it has happened time and time agtain...
My ancestors are not the ancestors of the ones who have scoured the cemetaries and taken their names from their well kept tombstones...
or got their names from military rolls or from books of transcribed church records...
This is such an evil ghoulish practice...
I turns my stomach to know that not only were my Christian ancestors dead dunked into Mormonism...
But also many of the Jeweish victims of Hitler were also along with Hitler himself...
How sick and perverted does this practice of necro-baptism get ???
How would Tommy Monson like to be dead dunked into Anism or Islam ???
Wait a minute? I can baptized for the living as a well...breathing and now symbol of LDS?
It has happened
The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes.
A protest drive initiated by Jewish genealogists escalated it to a nationally publicized issue that was followed by public outcry. American Jewish leaders considered it an insult and a major setback for interfaith relations. They initiated discussions with the Mormon Church that culminated in a voluntary 1995 agreement by the Church to remove the inappropriate names. Activists continue to monitor Mormon baptismal lists, seeking removal of inappropriate entries.
Has the church done anything to uphold its decade-old agreement with the Jewish community? The bad news is that the Mormons did (and still do) hijack Jewish genocide victims and other Jewish dead. Moreover, when a Jew is baptized, the door is open for all of his deceased ancestors to be baptized as well. Regrettably, their baptismal records place before the public a revisionist view that these deceased Jews were Mormons, a position they would have rejected in life.
A commentator on this topic said that anti-Semites who desecrate Jewish cemeteries want to destroy even the memory of Jews by breaking their tombstones and other symbols whereby we honor and remember them. He concluded that baptism of the Jewish dead is just a more sophisticated form of breaking tombstones.
A blogger wrote: "I don't buy the argument that it's done for selfless reasons. It's not selflessness, it's arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church's agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it's even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can't be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?"
We want to say this to all well-meaning Christians: We don't want to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, reincarnated, resurrected, or enraptured. We just want to be left alone. After 2000 years -- is it so much to ask?
In 1995 the LDS Church and representatives of the Jewish community signed the agreement described at the beginning of this article. Jews have objected to the continuing Mormon practice of wrongful baptism of the Jewish dead, especially in the case of Holocaust victims, claiming that the practice mirrored the forced baptism of Jews in the middle ages.
A decade later this wrongful practice, which demonstrates a disrespect for Jews and Jewish feelings, has not ended. Because of public objections, the Church did remove names of thousands of Jewish holocaust victims from the IGI. However, they continue the baptismal ritual that hijacks Jewish forebears. Names of thousands of baptized Jews have not yet been expunged from within the growing Church records while new victims continue to be added. Removed names often reappear at a later date. Their practice of turning dead Jews into Mormons is a brazen act that may obscure the historical record for future generations. One hundred years from now, will anyone know who you were?
Today is my grandmother’s birthday (my mothers mother)
Although shes been dead for 50 years and died a well documented Christian no doubt she was dead dunked into Mormonism...
On my fathers side I have found his grandmother who died in 1945 and some of her forbears back a bit...
The Mormons have some erroneous info on this lady, my great grandmother, but they have refused over the years to change their records...
Regardless of the fact that I have correct and official documents they claim they never make any mistakes...
Members of her family have also been dead dunked, endowed, married, and sealed all the way dfown to all living descendants...
Since this happened to one of them in the 1950s and I was already born, that made me a living descendant, a Mormon according to the Mormon beliefs...
Well i dont want to be a Mormon...so that now makes me an “apostate”...
and that destines me to the Mormon so called “outer darkness”
See how much easier it is just to believe in the REAL God...the LORD Jesus Christ and Him crucified ???
Actually, if we take the statement from this BYU prof (Daniel Ludlow, editor of the prolific Encyclopedia of Mormonism) below literally
-- a word which apparently some Mormon posters like Saundra Duffy have trouble understanding
-- then your observation is quite astute, Vendome!
Perhaps the most unique thing about our temple ordinances," wrote BYU professor Daniel H. Ludlow, is that they can be performed for the dead (those who have lived on the earth during earlier periods)
as well as for the living (those living on the earth now).
Such ordinances as baptism, the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and temple marriage are performed in our temples for the dead and the living.
Source: Selected Writings of Daniel H. Ludlow: Gospel Scholars Series, p. 365
So. Per this BYU "scholar":
(1) the most unique thing about Lds temple ordinances
(2) is they can be performed for the living & the dead
(3) This includes such ordinances as baptism and temple marriage
(4) To quote him: "Such ordinances as baptism, the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and temple marriage are performed in our temples for the dead and the living"
If proxy baptisms & temple marriages can be performed for the dead, then of course it's only "fair game" that proxy baptisms & temple marriages can be performed for the living. Hey, Ludlow the BYU scholar says so!
And as for your insinuations, Vendome, that this is some kind of "infringement" upon you or somethin' *(Your Shiite reference & "Why was I not consulted about a decision so important?"), who are you to stand in the way of the salvation and eternal marriage of your own soul?
Oh, and btw, if a Mormon Smithesque "prophet" comes along in the future, and says Mormons can perform temple proxy honeymoon "endowments" in the future (especially for the more well-endowed)...you're not to complain about that, either, if you find a Mormon bride & if some Mormon dude becomes a honeymoon proxy "stand-in" for ya.
After all, to use the Niemoller analogy:
First they came for the dead to baptize them,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't dead.
Then they came for the dead to have them married on the other side of the veil,
and I didn't speak out because I still wasn't dead; besides, I was already married.
Then they came for the Jewish holocaust victims,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jewish holocaust victim.
Then they came for my bride at honeymoon time,
and the Mormons made sure no Gentiles were allowed in the Mormon temple to speak out for me.
Now I have a favor to ask of you: Would you repeat your same comment -- placing it @ this thread posted Oct. 30: Mormons even marry the dead by proxy (Vanity: The OTHER World Series
The reason is that the Ludlow quote is actually part of the vanity posted on that thread...and, since it discusses Mormon temple ordinances, is quite relevant there!
He wants you to repent of your error and to find the One True God.
TN, I have to say it: I think you & Vendome are just gettin' a wee bit testy over the "benevolent" actions performed upon your soul by proxy Mormons.
(I may have to call upon Elsie's sidekick, Mormon Dude, to properly lecture you back into embracing 'The Principles')
Here, the Mormons have "redeemed" you (past tense)
via taking your soul into their temple care
[not sure how it is our so-called 'Gentile' souls are allowed into their temples, but our bodies are not]
And here you are already threatening "apostasy" from the Mormon camp!
Now, I know, I know. Some Lds reading this will object. They'll claim they are ONLY [think Mississippi accent as you read this] givin' us po' Gen-tiles a choyce to accept da Mormon 'gospel' on da udder side...
But to 'hear tell' their Mormon 'prophets' the choosin' & the redeemin' & the convertin's been dun!
"...I hope all of you will continue as long as you have any dead to redeem. Never cease that work while you have the power to enter into the Temple I HAVE HAD some thousands redeemED here. I HAVE HAD baptisms, ordinations, washings and anointings, endowments and sealings for them, the same as if they were standing in the flesh themselves...I held the keys of their salvation (Lds "prophet" Teachings of Presidents: Wilford Woodruff, pp. 191-192)
Now, if Brother Woodruff's authority was good for the "average Mormon" to deem polygamy off limits in 1890 & beyond...
...Then Brother Woodruff's authority to say he HAS personally REDEEMED THOUSANDS of Gentiles as if he saved them "in the flesh"...
...[and he says he ordained them, washed them, anointed them, endowed them, and sealed them to boot as if they were there 'in the flesh']
...Then who are you TN to "go AWOL" on your bros from the pre-existence?
Repent, sister 'Nana, for the kingdom of the post- existence is at hand!
More like a Kick in the Side; you mean!
That jerk slips in whenever I am away from the keyboard and raises havoc among these threads!
I'm surprised that Jim's kitty hasn't sprayed the Sulfurous Surprise on him(?) yet!
At least he's (?) not learned the secret of the invisible font!