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The Errors of Martin Luther's German Bible
http://www.cogwriter.com/luther.htm ^

Posted on 11/01/2011 6:08:48 PM PDT by rzman21

Sola Scriptura or Prima Luther? What Did Martin Luther Really Believe About the Bible?

By COGwriter

Most people realize that the Living Church of God (or any of the true Churches of God) cannot be part of the Roman Catholic Church. However, some do not realize that the Living Church of God is not part of the Protestant reformation movement led by Martin Luther (our history predates Luther, and the actual Roman Catholic Church for that matter, please see the History of Early Christianity).

Regarding the Bible, the Living Church of God believes that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and, and is profitable for doctrine" (II Timothy 3:16, NKJV throughout unless otherwise stated).

Did Martin Luther agree?

Martin Luther publicly taught that only the Bible should be used as doctrine. One of the rallying cries of his movement was sola Scriptura (translated in English as 'the Bible alone'). This is one of the major positions that many professing Protestants respect Martin Luther for.

Although Martin Luther stated that he looked upon the Bible "as if God Himself spoke therein" he also stated,

My word is the word of Christ; my mouth is the mouth of Christ" (O'Hare PF. The Facts About Luther, 1916--1987 reprint ed., pp. 203-204).

[Specifically, what Martin Luther wrote in German was ""Ich bin sehr gewiss, dass mein Wort nitt mein, sondern Christus Wort sei, so muss mein Mund auch des sein, des Wort er redet" (Luther, 682) - also translated as "I am confident that it is not my word, but Christ's word, so my mouth is His who utters the words"(God's words - the violence of representation. Universitatea din Bucuresti, 2002. http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/filologie/meanings/1.htm, September 25, 2003).]

Did Martin Luther really revere and believe the Bible more than his own opinions? This article will quote Martin Luther extensively to assist the reader in answering that question.

Martin Luther Added to the Book of Romans

The Bible, in Romans 3:28, states,

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Martin Luther, in his German translation of the Bible, specifically added the word "allein" (English 'alone') to Romans 3:28-a word that is not in the original Greek. Notice what Protestant scholars have admitted:

...Martin Luther would once again emphasize...that we are "justified by faith alone", apart from the works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28), adding the German word allein ("alone") in his translation of the Greek text. There is certainly a trace of Marcion in Luther's move (Brown HOJ. Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1988, pp. 64-65).

Furthermore, Martin Luther himself reportedly said,

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

This passage strongly suggests that Martin Luther viewed his opinions, and not the actual Bible as the primary authority--a concept which this author will name prima Luther. By "papists" he is condemning Roman Catholics, but is needs to be understood that Protestant scholars (like HOJ Brown) also realize that Martin Luther changed that scripture.

Perhaps it should also be noted that Martin Luther also claimed that the word for "alone" was needed for a translation into the German language, but that is really only true if one feels that the word alone must be added (according to one person I consulted with who studied German). The truth is that Martin Luther intentionally added a word and many sadly relied on it.

A second rallying cry for followers of Martin Luther was the expression sola fide (faith alone). But it appears that Martin Luther may have intentionally mistranslated Romans 3:28 for the pretence of supposedly having supposed scriptural justification for his sola fide doctrine.

He also made another change in Romans. Romans 4:15 states,

...because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Yet in his German translation, Martin Luther added the word 'only' before the term 'wrath' to Romans 4:15 (O'Hare, p. 201).

This presumably was to attempt to justify his position to discredit the law.

Martin Luther Made At Least One Other Intentional Mistranslation

Martin Luther has also been charged with intentionally mistranslating Matthew 3:2, Acts 19:18, and many other scriptures (ibid, p. 200).

Matthew 3:2 states,

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

Martin Luther, in his German translation, according to at least one Catholic source, changed the word 'repent' to 'mend' or 'do better' (ibid, p. 201), presumably to justify his position that one does not need to obey God's laws through repentance. Others disagree on that point and indicate that the German term chosen can or should be translated as repent.

Yet, irrespective of the translation (as I do not know enough German to have a strong opinion), Martin Luther did not seem to teach strong real repentance as he taught,

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

Martin Luther seemed to overlook what the Book of Hebrews taught:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27).

The Bible, in Acts 19:18, states,

"And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds..."

Yet according to one source, Martin Luther rendered it, "they acknowledged the miracles of the Apostles" (O'Hare, p. 201).

There are several possible reasons why Martin Luther intentionally mistranslated Acts 19:18, but the point on this article is to show that he did.

Another point to be made is that by making mistranslations of the Bible, Protestants have given Catholics reasons to ignore them (cf. 2 Peter 2:1-3). Here is what one Catholic priest has written:

The proponents of Protestantism made false translations of the Bible and misled people into their errors by apparently proving from the "Bible" (their own translations) the correctness of their doctrines. It was all deceit, lying and hypocrisy. (Kramer H.B. L. The Book of Destiny. Nihil Obstat: J.S. Considine, O.P., Censor Deputatus. Imprimatur: +Joseph M. Mueller, Bishop of Sioux City, Iowa, January 26, 1956. Reprint TAN Books, Rockford (IL), p. 224).

Perhaps I should add that many important Protestant-accepted doctrines would have been understood as false if later Protestant translators also would not have made their own intentional mistranslations of other parts of the Bible, especially in the New Testament. Yet, many who profess sola Scriptura even in the 21st century do not know that some of what they have relied on has been intentionally mistranslated.

Martin Luther Preferred to Change John 1:14

Martin Luther also taught,

And John 1 says: "The Word was made flesh," when in our judgment it would have been better said, "The Word was incarnate," or "made fleshly" (Disputation On the Divinity and Humanity of Christ February 27, 1540 conducted by Dr. Martin Luther, 1483-1546 translated from the Latin text WA 39/2, pp. 92-121 by Christopher B. Brown).

This was apparently done to justify his belief that Jesus was fully God and fully human while on the earth.

As Martin Luther correctly pointed out, John 1:14 states that "the Word was made flesh", yet John 1:14, combined with Philippians 2:6-7 show that Jesus 'emptied Himself' (the proper Greek translation; see Green JP. Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, 3rd ed., 1996, p. 607) of His divinity while on the earth.

If not, He could not have been tempted as we are, which He was,

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin" Hebrews 4:15-16).

This is discussed more in the article on Binitarianism.

Martin Luther Stated Jesus Meant the Opposite of What He Said

The Bible, in Luke 10:28, states,

"And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (KJV).

Yet Martin Luther taught,

To do means to believe-to keep the law by faith. The passage in Matthew: Do this and thou shalt live, signifies Believe this and thou shalt live. The words Do this, have ironical sense, as if our Lord should say: Thou wilt do it tomorrow, but not today; only make an attempt to keep the Commandments, and the trial will teach thee the ignominy of thy failure (O'Hare, p.205).

Although Martin Luther mentioned Matthew's account (which is in Matthew 19:16-21), the quote in question is actually from Luke 10:28. It is because of such misinterpretations of what the Bible states that many Protestants have tossed out the necessity to keep the ten commandments, even though scholars agree that they were kept by the early Christians (please see the article The Ten Commandments and the Early Church).

Martin Luther's comments clearly suggest that he felt that Jesus meant the opposite of what He said in Matthew 19:16,

"But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments".

Two articles of related interest may include What Did Jesus Teach About the Ten Commandments? and Hope of Salvation: How the Living Church of God differ from most Protestants

Martin Luther Taught Certain Books of the Bible Were Questionable

Martin Luther had different views of various books of the Bible. Specifically, he had a fairly low view of the Books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation.

The Catholic Encyclopedia claims:

As for Protestantism, the Anglicans and Calvinists always kept the entire New Testament But for over a century the followers of Luther excluded Hebrews, James, Jude, and Apocalypse (Reid, George J. Transcribed by Ernie Stefanik Canon of the New Testament. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume III Copyright © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, November 1, 1908. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).

Martin Luther himself was the obvious reason why, as he wrote,

Up to this point we have had the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow have from ancient times had a different reputation. In the first place, the fact that Hebrews is not an epistle of St. Paul, or of any other apostle (Luther, M. Prefaces to the Epistle of the Hebrews, 1546).

Regarding the New Testament Book of Hebrews Martin Luther stated,

It need not surprise one to find here bits of wood, hay, and straw (O'Hare, p. 203).

He also wrote,

St. James' epistle is really an epistle of straw…for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it" (Luther, M. Preface to the New Testament, 1546).

and

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works…Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching (Luther, M. Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude, 1546).

Interestingly the Epistle of James is the only place in the Bible to actually use the term 'faith alone':

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

One would have to assume that the fact that James 2:24 contradicted Martin Luther's sola fide teaching would have been a major reason that he discounted this book of the Bible.

Protestant scholars have recognized that Martin Luther handled James poorly as they have written:

The great reformer Martin Luther...never felt good about the Epistle of James...Luther went to far when he put James in the appendix to the New Testament.

(Radmacher E.D. general editor. The Nelson Study Bible. Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, 1997, p. 2107)

Martin Luther taught,

Concerning the epistle of St. Jude, no one can deny that it is an extract or copy of St. Peter's second epistle…Therefore, although I value this book, it is an epistle that need not be counted among the chief books which are supposed to lay the foundations of faith (Luther, M. Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude, 1546).

To me, Jude does not sound that similar to 2 Peter, but if even it is, should it be discounted? Maybe Martin Luther discounted it because it warns people:

...to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). And this, sadly, is not something that Martin Luther really did (though he did sometimes make some efforts towards that).

Perhaps none of Martin Luther's writings on the Bible are as harsh as what he wrote about "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1). Specifically he wrote,

About this book of the Revelation of John...I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic…I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep…My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it" (Luther, M. Preface to the Revelation of St. John, 1522).

Another reason Martin Luther may not have been able to accommodate this Revelation of Jesus Christ is because he clearly violated this warning,

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (Revelation 22:18-19).

Martin Luther took away from this book through his comments about it, and this is the same Martin Luther who (as shown previously in this article) added words to the Bible that were not there.

Martin Luther's Comments on Books of the Old Testament Show A Hate for Things Jewish

As the following quotes show, Martin Luther did not care for several books in the Old Testament either:

"Job spoke not as it stands written in his book, but only had such thoughts. It is merely the argument of a fable. It is probable that Solomon wrote and made this book."…

"Ecclesiastes ought to have been more complete. There is too much incoherent matter in it...Solomon did not, therefore, write this book."…

"The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much..."

"The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible." (as quoted in O'Hare, p. 202).

Furthermore, Martin Luther had little use for the first five books of the Old Testament (sometimes referred to as the Pentateuch):

Of the Pentateuch he says: "We have no wish either to see or hear Moses" (Ibid, p. 202).

Martin Luther hated the Jews, which may be why he was against Esther, the first five books of the Bible, and other parts of the Hebrew scriptures.

Notice that Martin Luther advised his followers,

...to burn down Jewish schools and synagogues, and to throw pitch and sulphur into the flames; to destroy their homes; to confiscate their ready money in gold and silver; to take from them their sacred books, even the whole Bible; and if that did not help matters, to hunt them of the country like mad dogs (Luther’s Works, vol. Xx, pp. 2230-2632 as quoted in Stoddard JL. Rebuilding a Lost Faith, 1922, p.99).

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch (Martin Luther (1483-1546): On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543 as quoted from Luther's Works, Volume 47: The Christian in Society IV, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971). pp 268­293).

More on Martin Luther and the Jews (as well as some of his other doctrinal positions) can be found in the article The Similarities and Dissimilarities between Martin Luther and Herbert W. Armstrong.

Martin Luther Claimed that John Was the Only True Gospel

Although Martin Luther decried John for penning the Revelation of Jesus Christ, he did like John. According to Martin Luther,

The first three speak of the works of our Lord, rather than His oral teachings; that of St. John is the only sympathetic, the only true Gospel and should undoubtedly be preferred above the others. In like manner the Epistles of St. Peter and St. Paul are superior to the first three Gospels (O'Hare, p. 203).

Martin Luther's position on this, and some of his other matters, appear to be blasphemous and in contraction to II Timothy 3:16.

Martin Luther' German Translation of the Bible

Perhaps it should be mentioned, that while some have credited Martin Luther with being the first person to translate the Bible into German, this was not the case.

The first translation of the Bible into Teutonic (old German) was apparently by Raban Maur, who was born in 776 (O'Hare, p.183). Actually, by 1522 (the year Martin Luther's translation came out) there were at least 14 versions of the Bible in High German and 3 in Low German (ibid).

However, it is true that Martin Luther's translation, became more commonly available, and possibly more understandable (in a sense)--even though it did include his intentional translating errors.

Martin Luther Preferred to Change a Commandment

Martin Luther seemed to believe that the Sabbath command had to do with learning about God's word, as opposed to rest, as he wrote about it,

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred and gladly hear and learn it (Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation. Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, 1986, p. 10).

"We sin against the Third Commandment when we despise preaching and the Word of God...What does God require of us in the Third Commandment? A. We should hold preaching and the Word of God sacred" (Ibid, p. 68).

The Lutheran Confessions admit:

As we study Luther's expositions of the Decalog, or the Ten Commandments, we find that he does not quote the Third Commandment in its Old Testament form: 'Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy', but rather in the spirit of the New Testament: 'Thou shalt sanctify the holy day' (Mueller, John Theodore. The Lutheran Confessions. Circa 1953, p.10).

In another place, Martin Luther wrote,

Now follows the Third Commandment: "Thou shalt hallow the day of rest." (Luther, M. A treatise on Good Works together with the Letter of Dedication, published 1520. In Works of Martin Luther. Adolph Spaeth, L.D. Reed, Henry Eyster Jacobs, et Al., Trans. & Eds. Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915, Vol. 1, pp. 173-285).

It should be noted that Lutherans (and Roman Catholics) consider the Sabbath to be the Third, not Fourth, Commandment. The order that Martin Luther chose to accept was an order changed by Augustine (please see the article Which Is Faithful: The Roman Catholic Church or the Church of God?) and not the order from the Bible or that as understood by the early Church (please see the article The Ten Commandments and the Early Church). Sadly, Martin Luther often accept Roman Catholic changes instead of believing what the Bible actually taught (and of course, he came up with other teachings that neither the Bible nor the Roman Church supported).

Martin Luther Preferred to Teach Doctrines That Did Not Have Proper Scriptural Support

Martin Luther apparently decided that he could not understand God, but that he should teach the unbiblical doctrine of the trinity. Notice what one Protestant scholar wrote:

For Luther, as for the German mystics, God is Deus absconditus, the "hidden God," inaccessible to human reason...

By emphasizing the sole authority of Scripture and downgrading the work of the church fathers and the decisions of the ecumenical councils, Luther created a problem for his followers. One the one hand, Luther wanted to affirm traditional theology with respect to the doctrine of the Trinity and Christ, but on the other those doctrines are not explicit in Scripture. They are the product of church fathers and the councils (Brown HOJ. Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1988, p. 314).

It should be noted here that NONE of the so-called "church fathers" prior to the end of the second century espoused any trinitarian position (more can be found in the article Did the True Church Ever Teach a Trinity?).

A French Protestant named Rabaud declared,

Luther has no fixed theory of inspiration: if all his works suppose the inspiration of the Sacred Writings, all his conduct shows that he makes himself the supreme judge of it (Rabaud, Histoire de la doctrine de l inspriaation dans les pays de langue francaise depuis la Reforme jusqu a nos jours Paris, 1883, p.42 as quoted in O'Hare, p. 203).

Thus even Protestant scholars realize that Martin Luther considered Prima Luther to be of more importance than Sola Scriptura--those interested in doing God's will should heed the Bible, and most should read the article The Bible and Tradition.

Martin Luther held many doctrinal positions that did not have biblical support, as well as some that did (please see the documented article The Similarities and Dissimilarities between Martin Luther and Herbert W. Armstrong.

Martin Luther Declared That Part of Three Days Equaled Three Days and Three Nights

The Catholic-supporting Augustine declared through an odd calculation that three days and three nights equaled thirty-six hours as ratios of twelve came to thirty-six (please see the article What Happened in the Crucifixion Week?).

Martin Luther, who had been a Roman Catholic, also did not accept that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights as he wrote,

How can we say that he rose on the third day, since he lay in the grave only one day and two nights? According to the Jewish calculation it was only a day and a half; how shall we then persist in believing there were three days? To this we reply that be was in the state of death for at least a part of all three days. For he died at about two o'clock on Friday and consequently was dead for about two hours on the first day. After that night he lay in the grave all day, which is the true Sabbath. On the third day, which we commemorate now, he rose from the dead and so remained in the state of death a part of this day, just as if we say that something occurred on Easter-day, although it happens in the evening, only a portion of the day. In this sense Paul and the Evangelists say that be rose on the third day (Luther M. Of Christ's Resurrection from volume II:238-247 of The Sermons of Martin Luther, published by Baker Book House (Grand Rapids, MI). It was originally published in 1906 in English by Lutherans in All Lands Press (Minneapolis, MN), as The Precious and Sacred Writings of Martin Luther, vol. 11).

However, Jesus clearly said He would be in the grave for three days AND three nights and this would be the sign religious leaders should pay attention to:

An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:39-40).

Jesus being the Messiah was to be proven by Him being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth like Jonah was in the belly of the great fish.

Should we believe the Bible or human tradition? Does anyone really believe that ratios of 12 are how Jesus expected His words to be understood?

Notice what the Book of Jonah states:

Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17).

Does any one really feel that Jonah was only in the belly of the fish for less than three days and three nights?

(Most Protestant commentators hedge on this and claim that parts of days is acceptable so 49 hours is possible--see The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press. Of course the problem with this is that even with 49 hours, it is not possible that Jesus was buried before sunset, about 6:00pm, on Friday and rose prior to sunrise, about 6:00am, on Sunday as that only adds up to 36 hours. Furthermore, if one takes the fact that Jesus died about 3:00 pm, as opposed to the time He was buried, that only makes 39 hours. Hence there is no way that any who actually believes the scriptures over personal interpretation can agree with Martin Luther.)

Conclusion

This author cannot agree with Martin Luther's assessment of the books of the Bible, nor Martin Luther's personal changes.

It appears that Martin Luther truly preferred the concept of prima Luther (the primacy of Luther) and not sola Scriptura when it came to doctrine.

Those of us in the Living Church of God believe that all 66 books of the Bible are inspired and profitable for doctrine (II Timothy 3:16). Because we also believe that we are not allowed to add or subtract from the Bible (see Revelation 22:18-19), we cannot follow the teachings of Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther—who changed or diminished the importance of at least 18 of them (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Esther, Job, Ecclesiastes, Jonah, Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation).

For a more complete background on the history of the Living Church of God, please request its free booklet God's Church Through the Ages or read it online at http://www.lcg.org/files/booklets/gca/default.htm.

For more information on how the Living Church of God differs from Protestantism, please read the article, Hope of Salvation: How the Living Church of God differs from most Protestants. To understand the the relationship between the Bible and tradition, please read Tradition and Scripture: From the Bible and Church Writings.

For specific information regarding the teachings of Martin Luther, please see the article The Similarities and Dissimilarities between Martin Luther and Herbert Armstrong.

Back to home page www.cogwriter.com

Thiel B., Ph.D. Sola Scriptura or Prima Luther? What Did Martin Luther Really Believe About the Bible? www.cogwriter.com (c) 2003/2006/2007/2008/2009/2011 1024


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Orthodox Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: bible; luther; lutheran; martinluther; revisionisthistory
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1 posted on 11/01/2011 6:08:51 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21

Not even a “nice try’ .... Luther was not around for the NIV


2 posted on 11/01/2011 6:23:50 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: rzman21; Charles Henrickson; bcsco

Who is this “Living Church of God” “tradition” and on what authority do they claim primacy regarding the Word of God?


3 posted on 11/01/2011 6:28:14 PM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The acronym explains the science.)
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To: knarf

He would have been rather blunt about it.

I hold fire this time of year. Better for the blood pressure.


4 posted on 11/01/2011 6:28:20 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: rzman21

Too bad they didn’t get to roast him the way they did Hus.


5 posted on 11/01/2011 6:29:45 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: rzman21

i’m not sure this article is trustworthing since it is put out by the church of the living god cult.
this is not a Christian source.
reader beware.


6 posted on 11/01/2011 6:30:19 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

they are sabbath keepers, so they reject the NT Church.


7 posted on 11/01/2011 6:31:54 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: rzman21

Checked out the “Church of God” link. Sounds a lot like Oneness Pentecostal, at least it denies the Trinity. There is much correct info about Luther, but a denial of the Trinity cannot be considered truly Christian. But thanks for the post.


8 posted on 11/01/2011 6:32:36 PM PDT by grumpa
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To: gusopol3
Wow ... THAT'S something I thought I'd never hear or read.

Not sure if I want to hear an explanation, neither

9 posted on 11/01/2011 6:33:45 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

So...pentacostal; glossalalia and such.

Meh.


10 posted on 11/01/2011 6:39:00 PM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The acronym explains the science.)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

Probably the 14,000 plus 1 new protestant sect. Jesus would be so proud.


11 posted on 11/01/2011 6:40:57 PM PDT by conservativguy99
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To: rzman21

So many errors...
Jesus was not dead for 72 hours. Part days were considered full days back then. Just as part years would count as full years - e.g. Nov 2009 to Jan 2011 was 3 years.


12 posted on 11/01/2011 6:41:19 PM PDT by impimp
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To: rzman21

Luther answered these charges himself. A word for word translation is not possible if you want a readable result.

If anyone wants to read more, I suggest here:

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html


13 posted on 11/01/2011 6:44:00 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: rzman21; Goreknowshowtocheat; Absolutely Nobama; Elendur; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; ...

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen


14 posted on 11/01/2011 6:45:47 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
The great deceiver keeps going nonstop.
15 posted on 11/01/2011 6:50:06 PM PDT by tractorman (I never miss a chance to tweak a liberal.)
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To: Mr Rogers

nonsense, romans 3:28 in the KJV is highly readable and it does not contain the word “alone”.

Luther was wrong to add words that change the meaning of the passage.

adding “alone” violates James 2:24

can you imagine the howling if Catholics did this?

let’s see how James 2:24 could be made more “readable”

You see that a man is justified by works alone and not by faith alone.


16 posted on 11/01/2011 6:52:37 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: narses
Amo te latin.
(hope I said that right)
May the Lord bless you.
17 posted on 11/01/2011 6:54:41 PM PDT by tractorman (I never miss a chance to tweak a liberal.)
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To: Gamecock; MEGoody; Belteshazzar; conservativguy99
Probably the 14,000 plus 1 new protestant sect. Jesus would be so proud.

Watch out for falling sects! 7,999 in a single day!

18 posted on 11/01/2011 6:57:12 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Oddly enough, Luther wasn’t translating the Bible into English. And frankly, the venom with which the Catholic Church fought against vernacular translations for the masses pretty much disqualifies it from complaining.

But those who want to know WHY Luther did it can read more at the link I posted. His translation has stood for 500 years, so maybe he had a pretty good idea of how to translate into German vernacular.


19 posted on 11/01/2011 7:04:23 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: tractorman

:)


20 posted on 11/01/2011 7:10:19 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Mr Rogers

LOL! “alone” is not needed if you are talking about, German, Greek, English, French, Swahili, or Martian.

and since the NT was written by, to and for the Church, it has every right to complain about individuals “editorializing” their own opinions of what the verses should say into the text.

we certainly object to when the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Mormons do it, don’t we?


21 posted on 11/01/2011 7:12:03 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: rzman21
For specific information regarding the teachings of Martin Luther, please see the article The Similarities and Dissimilarities between Martin Luther and Herbert Armstrong.

Is this the same organization that published "The Plain Truth" and gave short term apocalyptic warnings in the '70s and earlier? The ones who believe that the Lost Tribes of Israel wound up in England?
22 posted on 11/01/2011 7:12:16 PM PDT by Dr. Sivana (It's fun to play with your vision, but don't ever play with your eyes.--1970s PSA)
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To: Dr. Sivana

the one and the same, as i said earlier, READER BEWARE.

they reject the Trinity, they keep the Sabbath and other OT festivals, and have a kooky theory about the lost tribes of Israel, just to name a few of the issues Orthodox Christians would have with them.


23 posted on 11/01/2011 7:17:36 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

The Catholic Church under the leadership of the Pope had nothing to do with the writing of scripture.

And the Catholic Church violently opposed allowing commoners to read scripture. It wasn’t a ‘bad translation’ they opposed, but common people reading God’s Word.

And if you will read my link, you will find that translations authorized by the Catholic Church DID add ‘alone’:

The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] with the word “alone.”

At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.

Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):

Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] : Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] : We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html

The Catholic Church’s objection to Luther’s translation was that commoners COULD and DID read it.


24 posted on 11/01/2011 7:23:06 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers

these are not translations of the Scriptures, but commentaries by theologians....big difference.

The Catholic Church wrote the NT ( since all the human writers were Catholic ), received the books, preserved the books, copied the books and set the canon of Scripture by rejecting books which claimed to be Scripture but taught doctrines that did not agree with the Catholic Faith.

deal with it.


25 posted on 11/01/2011 7:31:56 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

They were translations made in commentaries. Thus, translations. There were not, after all, a huge number of complete translations made during medieval times...

“The Catholic Church wrote the NT ( since all the human writers were Catholic )”

If by Catholic, you mean someone accepting the authority of the Pope, then no, that is not true. There is no indication during the first 400 years that anyone considered the Bishop of Rome to be the single human head of the church. Indeed, the Orthodox constituted the majority of the Christian Church, and they still do not accept the Pope as their head...do they.

The writers of the NT were catholic - part of the universal church - but NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC.

Nor did the Catholic Church set the canon. Not authoritatively until the Council of Trent, AFTER Luther. That is why the accuser of Luther was free to question the canon status of the Apocrypha.


26 posted on 11/01/2011 7:47:17 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers
The title Catholic Church was created by the Anglicans who speciously pretended they still belonged to the Catholic Church. The Orthodox believe they are the Catholic Church. I might add that they accept the same OT canon as the Catholic Church with the additions of the 3rd Book of Maccabees, the First Book of Esdras, and the Prayer of Manasseh. So what's your point about the canon? The Orthodox local Council of Jerusalem reaffirmed what the Council of Trent said a century earlier, which further reaffirmed what the early councils of the Church said. QUESTION III. What Books do you call Sacred Scripture? Following the rule of the Catholic Church, we call Sacred Scripture all those which Cyril {Lucar ELC} collected from the Synod of Laodicea, and enumerated, adding thereto those which he foolishly, and ignorantly, or rather maliciously called Apocrypha; to wit, “The Wisdom of Solomon,” “Judith,” “Tobit,” “The History of the Dragon,” “The History of Susanna,” “The Maccabees,” and “The Wisdom of Sirach.” For we judge these also to be with the other genuine Books of Divine Scripture genuine parts of Scripture. For ancient custom, or rather the Catholic Church, which hath delivered to us as genuine the Sacred Gospels and the other Books of Scripture, hath undoubtedly delivered these also as parts of Scripture, and the denial of these is the rejection of those. And if, perhaps, it seemeth that not always have all been by all reckoned with the others, yet nevertheless these also have been counted and reckoned with the rest of Scripture, as well by Synods, as by how many of the most <156> ancient and eminent Theologians of the Catholic Church; all of which we also judge to be Canonical Books, and confess them to be Sacred Scripture. http://catholicity.elcore.net/ConfessionOfDositheus.html
27 posted on 11/01/2011 7:56:41 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Mr Rogers

“Even some Catholic versions of the New Testament also translated Romans 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] as did Luther. The Nuremberg Bible (1483), “allein durch den glauben” and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) say “per sola fede.”

Same link.

Also see “An Open Letter on Translating” By Dr. Martin Luther, 1483-1546:

http://www.archive.org/stream/anopenletterontr00272gut/ltran11.txt

An excerpt:

“I also know that in Rom. 3, the word “solum” is not present in
either Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me
that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these
knotheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same
time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text -
if the translation is to be clear and accurate, it belongs there.
I wanted to speak German since it was German I had spoken in
translation - not Latin or Greek. But it is the nature of our
language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed,
the other denied, we use the word “solum” only along with the word
“not” (nicht) or “no” (kein). For example, we say “the farmer
brings only (allein) grain and no money”; or “No, I really have no
money, but only (allein) grain”; I have only eaten and not yet
drunk”; “Did you write it only and not read it over?” There are a
vast number of such everyday cases.

In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is
not the Latin or Greek usage. It is the nature of the German
tongue to add “allein” in order that “nicht” or “kein” may be
clearer and more complete. To be sure, I can also say “The farmer
brings grain and no (kein) money, but the words “kein money” do
not sound as full and clear as if I were to say, “the farmer
brings allein grain and kein money.” Here the word “allein” helps
the word “kein” so much that it becomes a clear and complete
German expression.

We do not have to ask about the literal Latin or how we are to
speak German - as these asses do. Rather we must ask the mother
in the home, the children on the street, the common person in the
market about this. We must be guided by their tongue, the manner
of their speech, and do our translating accordingly. Then they
will understand it and recognize that we are speaking German to
them.

For instance, Christ says: Ex abundatia cordis os loquitur. If I
am to follow these asses, they will lay the original before me
literally and translate it as: “Out of the abundance of the heart
the mouth speaks.” Is that speaking with a German tongue? What
German could understand something like that? What is this
“abundance of the heart?” No German can say that; unless, of
course, he was trying to say that someone was altogether too
magnanimous, or too courageous, though even that would not yet be
correct, as “abundance of the heart” is not German, not any more
than “abundance of the house, “abundance of the stove” or
“abundance of the bench” is German. But the mother in the home
and the common man say this: “What fills the heart overflows the
mouth.” That is speaking with the proper German tongue of the
kind I have tried for, although unfortunately not always
successfully. The literal Latin is a great barrier to speaking
proper German.

So, as the traitor Judas says in Matthew 26: “Ut quid perditio
haec?” and in Mark 14: “Ut quid perditio iste unguenti facta est?”
Subsequently, for these literalist asses I would have to translate
it: “Why has this loss of salve occurred?” But what kind of
German is this? What German says “loss of salve occurred”? And
if he does understand it at all, he would think that the salve is
lost and must be looked for and found again; even though that is
still obscure and uncertain. Now if that is good German why do
they not come out and make us a fine, new German testament and let
Luther’s testament be? I think that would really bring out their
talents. But a German would say “Ut quid, etc..” as “Why this
waste?” or “Why this extravagance?” Even “it is a shame about the
ointment” - these are good German, in which one can understand
that Magdalene had wasted the salve she poured out and had done
wrong. That was what Judas meant as he thought he could have used
it better.”


Luther was not trying to make a literal translation, but a good one.

“Why should I talk about translating so much? I would need an
entire year were I to point out the reasons and concerns behind my
words. I have learned what an art and job translating is by
experience, so I will not tolerate some papal ass or mule as my
critic, or judge. They have not tried the task. If anyone does
not like my translations, they can ignore it; and may the devil
repay the one who dislikes or criticizes my translations without
my knowledge or permission. Should it be criticized, I will do it
myself. If I do not do it, then they can leave my translations in
peace. They can each do a translation that suits them - what do I
care?

To this I can, with good conscience, give witness - that I gave my
utmost effort and care and I had no ulterior motives. I have not
taken or wanted even a small coin in return. Neither have I made
any by it.”


28 posted on 11/01/2011 7:59:28 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers
Although the extent of the Roman primacy as it developed in the Middle Ages came to be disputed the primacy of the Pope of Rome was a matter of historical fact. I'm a Melkite Catholic, so I adhere to the theory of the pentarchy, which views the papacy in a horizontal fashion. Rome has always been first. "Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416
29 posted on 11/01/2011 8:01:31 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Mr Rogers

the historical ignorance is breathtaking.

prior to 1054, the Orthodox were in communion with the Catholic Church, all part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

the Baptist heretics( that i believe you follow ) did not show up for 500 years after the Great Schism.

i am grateful that unlike Baptism and the Eucharist, the Baptists accepted the Catholic canon of the NT.
since the canon of Scripture was not attacked until the 16th century, there was no reason for the Church to authoritatively set the canon. there were no 66 book Bibles used by anyone prior to the 16th century. various Church councils in the 4th century set the 73 book canon and this was universally accepted until 7 books were thrown overboard by certain sects in the 16th century.

one is only Catholic if they hold to the Catholic Faith. since Baptists do not accept the Nicene Creed, they can not be considered “Catholic” in any sense.


30 posted on 11/01/2011 8:02:57 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: rzman21

“The Orthodox believe they are the Catholic Church. I might add that they accept the same OT canon as the Catholic Church with the additions of the 3rd Book of Maccabees, the First Book of Esdras, and the Prayer of Manasseh. So what’s your point about the canon?”

Well, if the Orthodox have the same canon PLUS extra books, then the Orthodox do NOT have the same canon as the Roman Catholics.

Further, the Roman Catholic Church left unsettled at Trent if the Apocrypha was good for just reading, or if it was also good for determining doctrine. That remains an open question for Catholics.


31 posted on 11/01/2011 8:04:17 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel
Who is this “Living Church of God” “tradition” and on what authority do they claim primacy regarding the Word of God?

"The Living Church of God is a new organization with an old history. The Presiding Evangelist, Dr. Roderick C. Meredith, was one of the original evangelists ordained by the late Herbert W. Armstrong in December 1952. blah blah blah."

Looks to be a Worldwide Church of God spinoff.

"The Father and the Son comprise the 'Godhead.' There is one God (1 Corinthians 8:4 and Deuteronomy 6:4). Scripture shows that God is a divine Family which began with two" (!!)", God the Father and the Word (Genesis 1:26; Ephesians 2:19; 3:15; Hebrews 2:10-11)"

32 posted on 11/01/2011 8:04:44 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("Can a leopard change his spots, or a dispensationalist his faulty hermeneutic?")
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To: rzman21; Mr Rogers

don’t bother quoting St Irenaeus to our FRiend mr rogers, since Irenaeus believed in baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist and apostolic succession, he probably considers him a pagan!
everyone knows the Church went apostate in the late 1st century and had to be restored in the 16th century.


33 posted on 11/01/2011 8:08:00 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Mr Rogers

19th century Protestant scholar Philp Wace Schaff observes:
Luther was not the first, but by far the greatest translator of the German Bible, and is as inseparably connected with it as Jerome is with the Latin Vulgate. He threw the older translation into the shade and out of use, and has not been surpassed or even equaled by a successor. There are more accurate versions for scholars (as those of De Wette and Weizsäcker), but none that can rival Luther’s for popular authority and use.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/luther02.html

Why people believe such ignorant lies about the Catholic Church and the Bible is beyond me.


34 posted on 11/01/2011 8:08:27 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Mr Rogers

I’m enjoying your posts. This is very interesting.


35 posted on 11/01/2011 8:10:28 PM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

It seems you know nothing of history OR baptists.

Did you not know that the Orthodox NEVER accepted Papal authority over them?

Were you not aware that there were MANY discussions about what was scripture and what was not, although the majority of the NT was never questioned?

Were you not aware that the accuser of Luther had written that the Apocrypha wasn’t to be used for doctrine?

And no, I’ve never met a Baptist who claimed to be Roman Catholic. We do claim to be Christians - which I believe the Roman Catholic church now accepts - and thus part of the catholic - universal - church.


36 posted on 11/01/2011 8:12:39 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers

That’s spurious. What happened at the Council of Trent was any debate over the canon was sealed and Tradition was reaffirmed.

My point is that the only people who dispute the canon of the Old Testament are the Protestants who preferred to listen to anti-Christian Jewish rabbis in selecting their canon rather than to the consensus of the early fathers and councils.

But Trent didn’t make any decisions on 3rd Maccabees, etc., so it is conceivable that they could be admitted as canonical by the Western Church at some point.

Referring to Judith, Maccabees, etc. was a Protestant innovation.

The Apostolic Constitutions c. 380 A.D., which constituted part of Roman Catholic canon law until 1917 and still do for the Orthodox:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/apostolic.html
Canon 85: Concerning Holy Scripture.

Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by all of you, both clergy and laity. Of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; one of Joshua the son of Nun; one of the Judges; one of Ruth; four of the Kings; 1 two of Paralipomena (the books of Chronicles); two of Ezra; 2 one of Esther; [one of Judith;] 3 three of the Maccabees; one of Job; the one hundred and fifty Psalms; three books of Solomon: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs; the sixteen of the Prophets. And see that those newly come to discipleship become acquainted with the Wisdom of the learned Sirach. 4 And ours, that is, of the New Testament, are the four Gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen epistles of Paul; two epistles of Peter; three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which it is not appropriate to make public before all, because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles.


37 posted on 11/01/2011 8:17:42 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Mr Rogers

there is only one authority on earth that can definitively state what the canon is and it has this authority because it received it directly from Jesus as recorded in Matthew 28. that authority is the Catholic Church, it alone is the pillar of truth and it alone has been promised the Holy Spirit to lead it to all truth.

since you state i know nothing about the baptists, enlighten me, where were the baptists in the 2nd century? who were it’s church fathers? what about the 3rd century? 4th? 5th? etc etc til the 16th. let’s see what you know about them.


38 posted on 11/01/2011 8:20:13 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: rzman21

“Why people believe such ignorant lies about the Catholic Church and the Bible is beyond me.”

Hmmmm....

See here:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/wyclif5.html

and this:

“II. The Middle Ages:

Owing to lack of culture among the Germanic and Romanic peoples, there was for a long time no thought of restricting access to the Bible there. Translations of Biblical books into German began only in the Carolingian period and were not originally intended for the laity. Nevertheless the people were anxious to have the divine service and the Scripture lessons read in the vernacular. John VIII in 880 permitted, after the reading of the Latin gospel, a translation into Slavonic; but Gregory VII, in a letter to Duke Vratislav of Bohemia in 1080 characterized the custom as unwise, bold, and forbidden (Epist., vii, 11; P. Jaff;, BRG, ii, 392 sqq.). This was a formal prohibition, not of Bible reading in general, but of divine service in the vernacular.

With the appearance, in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, of the Albigenses and Waldenses, who appealed to the Bible in all their disputes with the Church, the hierarchy was furnished with a reason for shutting up the Word of God. The Synod of Toulouse in 1229 forbade the laity to have in their possession any copy of the books of the Old and the New Testament except the Psalter and

86
such other portions as are contained in the Breviary or the Hours of the Blessed Mary. “We most strictly forbid these works in the vulgar tongue” (Harduin, Concilia, xii, 178; Mansi, Concilia, xxiii, 194). The Synod of Tarragona (1234) ordered all vernacular versions to be brought to the bishop to be burned. James I renewed thin decision of the Tarragona synod in 1276. The synod held there in 1317 under Archbishop Ximenes prohibited to Beghards, Beguines, and tertiaries of the Franciscans the possession of theological books in the vernacular (Mansi, Concilia, xxv, 627). The order of James I was renewed by later kings and confirmed by Paul II (1464-71). Ferdinand and Isabella (1474-1516) prohibited the translation of the Bible into the vernacular or the possession of such translations (F. H. Reusch, Index der verbotenen Bcher, i, Bonn, 1883, 44).

In England Wyclif’s Bible-translation caused the resolution passed by the third Synod of Oxford (1408): “No one shall henceforth of his own authority translate any text of Scripture into English; and no part of any such book or treatise composed in the time of John Wycliffe or later shall be read in public or private, under pain of excommunication” (Hefele, Conciliengeschichte, vi, 984). But Sir Thomas More states that he had himself seen old Bibles which were examined by the bishop and left in the hands of good Catholic laymen (Blunt, Reformation of the Church of England, 4th ed., London, 1878, i, 505). In Germany, Charles IV issued in 1369 an edict to four inquisitors against the translating and the reading of Scripture in the German language. This edict was caused by the operations of Beghards and Beguines. In 1485 and 1486, Berthold, archbishop of Mainz, issued an edict against the printing of religious books in German, giving among other reasons the singular one that the German language was unadapted to convey correctly religious ideas, and therefore they would be profaned. Berthold’s edict had some influence, but could not prevent the dissemination and publication of new editions of the Bible. Leaders in the Church sometimes recommended to the laity the reading of the Bible, and the Church kept silence officially as long as these efforts were not abused.

III. The Roman Catholic Church since the Reformation:

Luther’s translation of the Bible and its propagation could not but influence the Roman Catholic Church. Humanism, through such men as Erasmus, advocated the reading of the Bible and the necessity of making it accessible by translations; but it was felt that Luther’s translation must be offset by one prepared in the interest of the Church. Such editions were Emser’s of 1527, and the Dietenberg Bible of 1534. The Church of Rome silently tolerated these translations.

1. Action by the Council of Trent.

At last the Council of Trent took the matter in hand, and in its fourth session (Apr. 18, 1546) adopted the Decretum de editione et usu librorum sacrorum, which enacted the following: “This synod ordains and decrees that henceforth sacred Scripture, and especially the aforesaid old and vulgate edition, be printed in the most correct manner possible; and that it shall not be lawful for any one to print, or cause to be printed, any books whatever on sacred matters without the name of the author; or in future to sell them, or even to possess them, unless they shall have been first examined and approved of by the ordinary.” When the question of the translation of the Bible into the vernacular came up, Bishop Acqui of Piedmont and Cardinal Pacheco advocated its prohibition. This was strongly opposed by Cardinal Madruzzi, who claimed that “not the translations but the professors of Hebrew and Greek are the cause of the confusion in Germany; a prohibition would produce the worst impression in Germany.” As no agreement could be had, the council appointed an index-commission to report to the pope, who was to give an authoritative decision.

2. Rules of Various Popes.

The first index published by a pope (Paul IV), in 1559, prohibited under the title of Biblia prohibita a number of Latin editions as well as the publication and possession of translations of the Bible in German, French, Spanish, Italian, English, or Dutch, without the permission of the sacred office of the Roman Inquisition (Reusch, ut sup., i, 264). In 1584 Pius IV published the index prepared by the commission mentioned above. Herein ten rules are laid down, of which the fourth reads thus: “Inasmuch as it is manifest from experience that if the Holy Bible, translated into the vulgar tongue, be indiscriminately allowed to every one, the rashness of men will cause more evil than good to arise from it, it is, on this point, referred to the judgment of the bishops or inquisitors, who may, by the advice of the priest or confessor, permit the reading of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue by Catholic authors, to those persons whose faith and piety they apprehend will be augmented and not injured by it; and this permission must be had in writing. But if any shall have the presumption to read or possess it without such permission, he shall not receive absolution until he have first delivered up such Bible to the ordinary.” Regulations for booksellers follow, and then: “Regulars shall neither read nor purchase such Bibles without special license from their superiors.” Sixtus V substituted in 1590 twenty-two new rules for the ten of Pius IV. Clement VIII abolished in 1596 the rules of Sixtus, but added a “remark” to the fourth rule given above, which particularly restores the enactment of Paul IV. The right of the bishops, which the fourth rule implies, is abolished by the “remark,” and the bishop may grant a dispensation only when especially authorized by the pope and the Inquisition (Reusch, ut sup., i, 333). Benedict XIV enlarged, in 1757, the fourth rule thus: “If such Bible-versions in the vernacular are approved by the apostolic see or are edited with annotations derived from the holy fathers of the Church or from learned and Catholic men, they are permitted.” This modification of the fourth rule was abolished by Gregory XVI in pursuance of an admonition of the index-congregation, Jan. 7, 1836, “which calls attention to the fact that according to the decree of 1757 only such versions in the vernacular

87
are to be permitted as have been approved by the apostolic see or are edited with annotations,” but insistence is placed on all those particulars enjoined by the fourth rule of the index and afterward by Clement VIII (Reusch, ut sup., ii, 852).

3. Rules and Practice in Different Countries.

In England the reading of the Bible was made by Henry VIII (1530) to depend upon the permission of the superiors. Tyndale’s version, printed before 1535, was prohibited. In 1534 the Canterbury convocation passed a resolution asking the king to have the Bible translated and to permit its reading. A folio copy of Coverdale’s translation was put into every church for the benefit of the faithful, and fastened with a chain. In Spain the Inquisitor-General de Valdes published in 1551 the index of Louvain of 1550, which prohibits “Bibles (New and Old Testaments) in the Spanish or other vernacular” (Reusch, ut sup., i, 133). This prohibition was abolished in 1778. The Lisbon index of 1824 in Portugal prohibited quoting in the vernacular in any book passages from the Bible. In Italy the members of the order of the Jesuits were in 1596 permitted to use a Catholic Italian translation of the Gospel-lessons. In France the Sorbonne declared, Aug. 26,1525, that a French translation of the Bible or of single books must be regarded as dangerous under conditions then present; extant versions were better suppressed than tolerated. In the following year, 1526, it prohibited the translation of the entire Bible, but permitted the translation of single books with proper annotations. The indexes of the Sorbonne, which by royal edict were binding, after 1544 contained the statement: “How dangerous it is to allow the reading of the Bible in the vernacular to unlearned people and those not piously or humbly disposed (of whom there are many in our times) may be seen from the Waldensians, Albigenses, and Poor Men of Lyons, who have thereby lapsed into error and have led many into the same condition. Considering the nature of men, the translation of the Bible into the vernacular must in the present be regarded therefore as dangerous and pernicious” (Reusch, ut sup., i, 151). The rise of Jansenism in the seventeenth century, and especially the appearance, under its encouragement, of Quesnel’s New Testament with moral reflections under each verse (Le Nouveau Testament en franois avec des reflexions moroles sur chaque vers, Paris, 1699), which was expressly intended to popularize the reading of the Bible, caused the renewal, with increased stringency, of the rules already quoted. The Jesuits prevailed upon Clement XI to publish the famous bull Unigenitus, Sept. 8, 1713, in which he condemned seven propositions in Quesnel’s work which advocated the reading of the Bible by the laity (cf. H. J. D. Denzinger, Enchiridion, Wrzburg, 1854, 287). In the Netherlands, Neercassel, bishop of Emmerich, published in 1677 (in Latin) and 1680 (in French) a treatise in which he dealt with the fourth rule of the Tridentine index as obsolete, and urged the diligent reading of the Bible. In Belgium in 1570 the unlicensed sale of the Bible in the vernacular was strictly prohibited; but the use of the Antwerp Bible continued. In Poland the Bible was translated and often published. In Germany papal decrees could not very well be carried out and the reading of the Bible was not only not prohibited, but was approved and praised. Billuart about 1750, as quoted by Van Ess, states, “In France, Germany, and Holland the Bible is read by all without distinction.” In the nineteenth century the clergy took great interest in the work of Bible Societies. Thus Leander van Ess acted as agent of the British and Foreign Bible Society for Catholic Germany, and the society published the New Testament of Van Ess, which was placed on the Index in 1821. The princes-bishop of Breslau, Sedlnitzki, who afterward joined the Evangelical Church, was also interested in circulating the Bible. As the Bible Societies generally circulated the translations of heretics, the popes;Leo XII (May 5, 1824); Pius VIII (May 25, 1829); Gregory XVI (Aug. 15, 1840; May 8, 1844); Pius IX (Nov. 9, 1846; Dec. 8, 1849) issued encyclicals against the Bible Societies. In the syllabus of 1864 “socialism, communism, secret societies, . . . and Bible Societies” are placed in the same category. As to the effect of the papal decrees there is a difference of opinion within the Catholic Church. In theory the admonition of Gregory XVI no doubt exists, but practise often ignores it.”

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc02/htm/iv.v.lxi.htm


39 posted on 11/01/2011 8:20:53 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
That makes Martin Luther a pagan too because he believed in baptismal regeneration as do Lutherans to this day, which is why so many Lutherans become Catholic.
Here's a Protestant service done the right way. :)
40 posted on 11/01/2011 8:21:40 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
The Catholic Church wrote the NT ( since all the human writers were Catholic ), received the books, preserved the books, copied the books and set the canon of Scripture by rejecting books which claimed to be Scripture but taught doctrines that did not agree with the Catholic Faith

Exactly, doctrines of Catholic faith that is in disagreement with Yah'shua Messiah's doctrine:

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever...21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”...23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. 6 So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him

Hebrew 10:28 Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.

Rev 12:17 17 The dragon was infuriated over the woman and went off to fight the rest of her children, those who obey God's commands and bear witness to Yeshua.

Yah’shua Messiah never established any NT church whose doctrine says that the Torah is only for the Jews as Catholicism & Christendom claim and haSatan is very aware of this, thus why he is not concerned about those who don't keep the commandments.

Yah'shua, the 'Alef-Tav' who existed in the beginning, came to confirm His doctrine and to bring the “Good News” to the out of covenant house of Isra’el that they are now back in covenant through His death that released them from the Torah law of divorce. It would behoove NT churchers to actually read the front of the book so they understand what Paul was saying in Romans 7.

41 posted on 11/01/2011 8:23:48 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
there is only one authority on earth that can definitively state what the canon is and it has this authority because it received it directly from Jesus as recorded in Matthew 28. that authority is the Catholic Church, it alone is the pillar of truth and it alone has been promised the Holy Spirit to lead it to all truth

Can you please cite Scripture for that statement where YHVH gave authority over HIS doctrine to the Catholic church?

42 posted on 11/01/2011 8:25:35 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Mr Rogers

What do you call the Douay-Rhiems Bible? Pig Latin. It came out before the King James Bible for the edification of Catholic recusants who refused to become apostates.

The Catholic Church opposed heretical translations of the Bible that aimed to distort the scriptures. It’s that simple.


43 posted on 11/01/2011 8:25:35 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

“there is only one authority on earth that can definitively state what the canon is and it has this authority because it received it directly from Jesus as recorded in Matthew 28. that authority is the Catholic Church, it alone is the pillar of truth and it alone has been promised the Holy Spirit to lead it to all truth.”

Well, of course if I was a Roman Catholic, I’d agree with you. But since Roman Catholics are a minority of Christianity, I guess I’ll feel free to disagree that the Pope rules over all Christendom.

Lots of folks have rejected Papal authority and many of the Catholic doctrines from the beginning. Baptists as an organized body appeared around 1600, holding that scripture ruled over the church for matters of doctrine - which was NOT a new doctrine!

And thus we rejected doctrines long taught by the Roman Catholics, such as Purgatory.


44 posted on 11/01/2011 8:25:35 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: rzman21; Mr Rogers

my wife is lutheran and i often attend services with her, in addition to Mass. the lutheran service follows the Mass very closely, with many prayers the same. if a faithful Lutheran were forced to choose between becoming a Catholic or a Baptist, they would have to choose the Catholic Church since it believes in baptismal regeneration and the Eucharist, which Baptists utterly reject. Lutherans and Catholics both share admiration for St Augustine.


45 posted on 11/01/2011 8:26:51 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: rzman21

I’m not a regular on religion threads... So, apologies... But I’m curious to know why some folk seem to think that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was insufficient? Why must something ~else~ be needed?


46 posted on 11/01/2011 8:27:04 PM PDT by Ramius (personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: patlin

why do you care what Christians believe?


47 posted on 11/01/2011 8:28:08 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Mr Rogers

The Baptists decided to engage in the creative interpretation of Scripture.

1.1 billion Catholics are hardly a minority of global Christianity. The next largest Christian groups are the Orthodox with over 300 million.

So between Catholics and Orthodox, apostolic Christianity constitutes the majority of global Christendom compared with Protestant sectarians who make up the remainder of the 2 billion Christians worldwide.


48 posted on 11/01/2011 8:29:20 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: patlin

The Catholic Church preceded the New Testament.


49 posted on 11/01/2011 8:30:59 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: rzman21

“What do you call the Douay-Rhiems Bible? Pig Latin. It came out before the King James Bible for the edification of Catholic recusants who refused to become apostates.”

It came out AFTER William Tyndale made his translation. And the original DR Bible stunk so bad that it went out of print. The one you buy today was done in the mid-1700s, and pulled largely from the KJV. Which is turn is largely that of William Tyndale & friends...

And the Roman Catholic Church, as I have shown, was opposed to commoners getting their hands on a vernacular translation. That is the history.

“The New Testament portion was published in Reims, France, in 1582, in one volume with extensive commentary and notes. The Old Testament portion was published in two volumes thirty years later by the University of Douai...The New Testament was reprinted in 1600, 1621 and 1633, while both the Old Testament volumes were reprinted in 1635, but neither thereafter for another hundred years...

...Much of the text of the 1582/1610 bible, however, employed a densely latinate vocabulary, to the extent of being in places unreadable; and consequently this translation was replaced by a revision undertaken by bishop Richard Challoner; the New Testament in three editions 1749, 1750, and 1752; the Old Testament (minus the Vulgate apocrypha), in 1750. Although retaining the title Douay–Rheims Bible, the Challoner revision was in fact a new version, tending to take as its base text the King James Bible rigorously checked and extensively adjusted for improved readability and consistency with the Clementine edition of the Vulgate.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay%E2%80%93Rheims_Bible


50 posted on 11/01/2011 8:31:59 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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