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Purgatory and Praying for All the Faithful Departed
Insight Scoop ^ | November 2, 2011 | Carl Olson

Posted on 11/02/2011 1:38:19 PM PDT by NYer

A Scriptural Reflection on the Readings for November 2, 2011 | The Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed | Carl E. Olson

“I’ve always had a hard time explaining purgatory,” the man said. “Didn’t the Second Vatican Council say that Catholics no longer have to believe in purgatory?”

That remark was made to me years ago, not long after I had entered the Catholic Church. Although I was saddened to hear it, it didn’t surprise me. In the course of studying various Catholic doctrines, I had learned that certain beliefs, including purgatory, were often avoided or even ignored by some Catholics. And this, unfortunately, meant that many Catholics don’t appreciate the Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed, which is all about praying for those who are in purgatory.

“I think purgatory is rather simple to understand,” I responded. “The problem is that we often have to do away with our flawed notions of purgatory.”

Growing up in a Fundamentalist home, I had been told purgatory was the belief that everyone gets a “second chance” after death. Purgatory, I had also been taught, was just another Catholic invention without any basis in Scripture. 

What I learned years later was quite different. I saw that the early Christians prayed for the dead, and that this practice was based, in part, on the actions of those Jews who had prayed for the dead (cf., 2 Macc. 12:41-46). As today’s reading from the Book of Wisdom indicates, the idea of spiritual cleansing was a common one in the Old Testament: “For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.”

It followed logically that if there was life after death for the just, those who were just would be cleansed fully and completely, if necessary, before entering the presence of God. This, of course, also flowed from the deepened understanding of death and resurrection given through the life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Savior had promised, in today’s Gospel, “that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him on the last day.”

But the early Christians recognized that not every disciple of Jesus is perfectly cleansed in this life from venial sins. St. Augustine explained that the Church’s prayers, the Mass, and the giving of alms provided spiritual aid to the dead. “The whole Church,” he wrote, “observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf.”

It is ironic that the culture of death, which is present in so many ways, is so afraid to face death squarely and honestly. It tries to cheat and avoid death, both mocking it and cowering before it in movies, books, video games, and music. We fear death because it is so mysterious and hidden. We fear it because it seems so unjust that the vibrancy of life can end so suddenly and completely. If this world is all that exists, then death is to be feared. But it also will not be denied.

St. Paul, on the other hand, embraced death—that is, the death of Jesus Christ. “We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death,” he wrote to the Christians in Rome, “so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.” 

All Souls not only provides us an opportunity to pray for those who have gone before us, but also reminds us of our mortal end. We cannot deny it. But by God’s grace we can and should prepare for it, trusting that the Lord our Shepherd will guide us through the valley of darkness.



TOPICS: Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: brokencaucus; purgatory
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1 posted on 11/02/2011 1:38:22 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Prayer for the souls in purgatory ping!


2 posted on 11/02/2011 1:40:32 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
Why are you starting a new thread? These beliefs and concepts about purgatory and praying for the dead are ongoing here.
3 posted on 11/02/2011 1:44:22 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS! This means liberals AND libertarians (same thing) NO LIBS!)
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To: NYer

The idea of purgatory has been around for 600 years or so, but I’m unclear on who came up with it. Anyone know?


4 posted on 11/02/2011 1:49:33 PM PDT by Jedidah
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To: Jedidah

Longer’n that.


5 posted on 11/02/2011 2:00:46 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
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To: Jedidah
How can you think purgatory is a six hundred year old “idea” when it's been part of Scripture since way more than six hundred years prior to Christ? Are you Catholic or did you just miss the Catholic Caucus designation?
6 posted on 11/02/2011 2:10:26 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Mad Dawg

I was drawing from the Catholic Encyclopedia, which refers to some gatherings in the 1400s. It was apparently an idea that developed over time.


7 posted on 11/02/2011 2:10:46 PM PDT by Jedidah
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To: Responsibility2nd

This is a caucus thread. If you aren’t Catholic, stay off it.


8 posted on 11/02/2011 2:13:18 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Judith Anne; Religion Moderator

Are you a Religion Moderator? I think a bad attitude such as yours needs to be checked.

And - I’m sure if I’m wrong, I’ll be corrected - ALL are welcome on any Religion threads as long as they are respectful.


9 posted on 11/02/2011 2:18:00 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS! This means liberals AND libertarians (same thing) NO LIBS!)
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To: Jedidah
The idea of purgatory has been around for 600 years or so, but I’m unclear on who came up with it. Anyone know?

600? More like 2000, as reflected by graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it.

10 posted on 11/02/2011 2:28:00 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: Jedidah
It may have been given that name and formalized then, but there are references in several parts of the OT which means they're since well before Christ. What would you call the various allusions in Hosea to punishment for sins of those who are destined for heaven and in Jeremiah where it talks about punishment of those who are destined for heaven being proportionate to their sins. That isn't taking place in this life in either case.

I'm beginning to believe a lot of people who didn't have to struggle with becoming Catholic due to having been granted the grace to see the errors of the Protestant and Protestant derived religion they were in don't ever dig into the teaching of the Church. If so, that's probably the major reason why so many cradle Catholics fall for the propaganda, half-truths, and lies that lead them away from the Church and a real understanding of what Christ taught.

Check out post #27 in the thread about purgatory that's full of lies, misinterpretations of Scripture, and so on. That post has a good starting set of references and you can get several good books on the topic from Saint Benedict press, TAN, and others. It's worth spending time to study and understand because it's an amazing eye opener on just how merciful Christ really is. For all the bluster you might hear about any belief in purgatory being the same as doubting the sufficiency of the sacrifice Christ made, it's quite the opposite.

A real understanding of the Communion of the Saints and Purgatory leads you to a deeper understanding of how Christ paid for everything and is totally sufficient in every way, he also provided a complete and merciful way for us to be purified and enter heaven in the state we were created to exist in rather than just having our sin hidden a bit. You know, one guy wearing a batman cape to cover his sin, another less sinful guy just wearing a single white glove to hide his sin, and so on. No such BS, Christ has the perfect way to purify us through the fire to burn away the straw rather than a way to smuggle us into heaven in his diplomatic pouch.

That's not less belief in the sufficiency of Christ, it's a realization of just how His sacrifice is so perfect in that it makes Love, Grace, Mercy, and Justice, all work perfectly rather than ignoring the Justice intrinsic to God the Father and therefore, intrinsic to Christ. After all, Christ cannot be the perfect sacrifice unless He is perfectly Just as well as perfectly sinless.

JMHO

11 posted on 11/02/2011 2:32:23 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Responsibility2nd

This is a CAUCUS THREAD. You’ve already made known on another thread that you don’t consider Catholics Christians.

“Are you a Religion Moderator? I think a bad attitude such as yours needs to be checked.”

You’d best be off before we get charlie horses from laughing too hard.


12 posted on 11/02/2011 2:34:39 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Responsibility2nd; Religion Moderator

**Purgatory and Praying for All the Faithful Departed (Catholic Caucus)**

Did you miss the words “Catholic Caucus” in the title?

Responsibility2nd; Religion Moderator


13 posted on 11/02/2011 2:37:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: OpusatFR; Judith Anne
Excuse me, but I have read the rules on Caucus Threads. And I am in compliance with them.

I'm not sure, but I don't think rudeness on your part (and Judith Anne) is called for.

14 posted on 11/02/2011 2:39:14 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS! This means liberals AND libertarians (same thing) NO LIBS!)
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To: Responsibility2nd; Religion Moderator
your post:
"Excuse me, but I have read the rules on Caucus Threads. And I am in compliance with them. I'm not sure, but I don't think rudeness on your part (and Judith Anne) is called for."

Per the rules you linked to:
"For instance, if it says “Catholic Caucus” and you are not Catholic, do not post to the thread. "

So, you're Catholic but do not consider Catholics to be Christian, is that it?

15 posted on 11/02/2011 2:43:35 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: NYer
I wrote this for RCIA tonight

All Saints All Souls
All Saints - Throughout the year, we will provide to you the names of a very few of the very many famous saints. We do not pretend to know all those in whom we think God has done great things to make his Love known. The chief wonder is not their fame, profound and moving writing, sacrificial lives, or even the miracles which accompany them.
The chief wonder is the Love of God operating in their lives, and through their lives in our world. So on All Saints Day, one of the highest ranking feasts of the Church, we celebrate, with all the joy and wonder we can muster, the glory of God working in the world through saints known and unknown.

We hold that God invites all of us to live “righteous” lives. “Righteous” has become in many quarters a word almost of derision. We hear “righteous” and we think “self-righteous.” But justice, “righteousness” matters. It is a thing God wants to plant in us, and to cultivate in us so that it will grow into charity, the perfection of righteousness. And then God means that perfection to grow into a greater perfection: holiness, sanctity, the thing for which we call these people “saints.”
We may find when we look, on the one hand, at God's Holy Ones, and, on the other, at ourselves, that the distance seems too great to travel, the gap too vast to cross.
We must remember that, in Jesus, God crossed a far vaster gap and travelled a far greater distance, that between Creator and creature. And then he crossed from Life to death. And he did all this to bring you who are reading this, into the joy of his holiness. To trust in him is to trust that he can do in us what we cannot do for ourselves. He can make us, even us, holy.

To celebrate All Saints Day is to celebrate the loving Power, the powerful Love of God and his extravagant scattering of Love and Power through all he has made.
All Souls - It is impossible for us to be very clear about eternity. It is not LESS than time the way a diamond, beautiful and static, is still less than life. It is more than time (whatever that might mean), it comprehends time. Some say for God all times are now. C. S. Lewis suggests the more dynamic, “I call all times soon,” in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
To talk about some Divine things we must use the language of process, of time, even while we know it is inadequate. So when we think of the perfection of those who die (as the vast majority of us do) with much growth to be accomplished in us, we will slip into the language of time.
What I think we MUST hold is that God is as solicitous of our freedom as a lover might be. He doesn't want conquest, he wants eager assent. So he must woo us into the holiness that will delight both him and us.

For many, the final stage of that courtship is what we call “purgation” and “purgatory.” And it is authoritatively suggested that not all of it will be fun. Even a dog who loves to please his master finds some of the baths unpleasant, after all, while he still knows that the master who gives them does so in love.
Now who can say HOW our prayers are effective? Not I! But I can say that almost everyone suspects that through prayer one reaches that eternity where all times — past, present, and future — are soon. And we who pray also long to pray for those we think to be suffering.
We can shed, maybe ought to shed, the kind of book-keeping attitude that seems to suggest that so many prayers of this or that kind will ease suffering by some quantifiable amount. Better to enter faithfully and gratefully into the privilege of being able to share in God's love for his redeemed children, trusting that prayers DO help, and in important, if mysterious, ways.
Therefore we pray on this day, and all the time, for the departed.

16 posted on 11/02/2011 2:43:38 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
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To: Salvation; Religion Moderator

I don’t think this article allows a “caucus” designation since it discusses the beliefs of non-Catholics. Moderator?


17 posted on 11/02/2011 2:48:15 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: armydoc
Purgatory and Praying for All the Faithful Departed (Catholic Caucus)
All Souls' Day: Praying for the dead is a Christian duty
All Saints or All Souls? Differences should be black and white
All Souls' Day [Catholic Caucus]
Why I Am Catholic: For Purgatory, Thank Heavens (Ecumenical)
Q and A: Why Pray for the Dead? [Ecumenical]
“….and Death is Gain” – A Meditation on the Christian View of Death [Catholic Caucus]
99 & 1/2 Won’t Do – A Meditation on Purgatory
The Month of November: Thoughts on the "Last Things"
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)

November 2 -- All Souls Day
On November: All Souls and the "Permanent Things"
"From the Pastor" ALL SAINTS & ALL SOULS
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
To Trace All Souls Day [Ecumenical]
All Souls Day [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Roots of All Souls Day
The Commemoration of all the Faithful Departed (All Souls)
During Month of Souls, Recall Mystic, St. Gertrude the Great
All Saints and All Souls

18 posted on 11/02/2011 3:09:56 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

What was that- Catholic buckshot?


19 posted on 11/02/2011 3:37:13 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: NYer

The article does not qualify for the caucus label since it describes the beliefs of non-members, in this case Fundamentalists. I will remove the caucus label.


20 posted on 11/02/2011 4:41:15 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Responsibility2nd
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

Read my profile page for guidelines pertaining to the Religion Forum.

21 posted on 11/02/2011 4:44:41 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: NYer
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
22 posted on 11/02/2011 5:42:48 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Responsibility2nd; Religion Moderator; OpusatFR; Salvation

Wrong. You’fe made your anti=Catholic feelings known here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2801461/posts?page=123#123

Everyone knows you are not Ctholic. Get off the thread


23 posted on 11/02/2011 6:33:20 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Jedidah

This is a Catholic Caucus thread. Foir active practising Catholics only.


24 posted on 11/02/2011 6:36:06 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: HarleyD

Catholic Caucus thread. For active practising Catholics ONLY.


25 posted on 11/02/2011 6:38:33 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Religion Moderator; OpusatFR; Salvation; NYer

Just a note that you removed the Caucus Designation THREE HOURS after the article was posted. Why not give the OP a chance to remove the offending phrase instead of just yanking the Caucus label? Because it looks like only one sentence did not comply


26 posted on 11/02/2011 6:56:03 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Judith Anne

I said up thread that you are rude. And now you are wrong and rude. This is not a Caucus thread.

And instead of complaining to the RM about how they do their job, take the advice they gave me in post 21:

“Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.”


27 posted on 11/02/2011 7:06:18 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS! This means liberals AND libertarians (same thing) NO LIBS!)
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To: Responsibility2nd

You posted long before the RM did. I’ve never posted to yoiu before, and won’t ever again as long as you stay off Caucus threads.


28 posted on 11/02/2011 7:14:03 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Judith Anne; NYer

If NYer would like to repost this article as an “ecumenical” thread and have this one pulled, (s)he should let me know.


29 posted on 11/02/2011 8:21:11 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: HarleyD
Ecc 9:5" For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. "

This was written before Christ but then how do we explain Matthew 27:

51 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

This certainly shows the "many holy people who had died were raised to life."

I would gather the dead in the first quote is talking about the spiritually dead not physical as Christ talks in the Gospels. You know when he states do not worry about the first death(human body dies) but the second death(spiritual death or going to Hell).

30 posted on 11/03/2011 12:53:48 AM PDT by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: All; HarleyD
Ecc 9:5" For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. "

This was written before Christ but then how do we explain Matthew 27:

51 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

This certainly shows the "many holy people who had died were raised to life."

I would gather the dead in the first quote is talking about the spiritually dead not physical as Christ talks in the Gospels. You know when he states do not worry about the first death(human body dies) but the second death(spiritual death or going to Hell).

31 posted on 11/03/2011 12:54:21 AM PDT by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: Judith Anne

It isn’t marked as a Caucus thread which requires (Catholic Caucus) at the end. Had I known I would not have post to this article. In looking through the posts, there still seems to be some confusion at whether or not this is a Caucus thread as it is still not marked as such.


32 posted on 11/03/2011 3:15:09 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: johngrace; All
This was written before Christ but then how do we explain Matthew 27:

You don't have to go back as far as Matthew 27. There were many places where Christ raised people from the dead; the woman and her son, the Jewish leader and his dead daughter, Lazarus, etc. Paul raised the boy who fell out of the window in which he fell asleep. In fact you'll find some places in the Old Testament of people being raised from the dead (Elisha comes to mind). But none of these examples have anything to do with their final death. Even after being raised again, they all died again. They were raised to bring glory to God and to show God is fully capable of raising people from the dead.

And none of the people that were raised would I classify in the sense of "holy" as I take it you mean. They were ordinary people who did what God wanted them to do. Yes they were holy in God's eyes but not in the sense of some great saints. Does any of us know what the dead son did after he was resurrected? Or the Jewish leader's little girl? Or even Lazarus or the boy who fell out of the window?

I would gather the dead in the first quote is talking about the spiritually dead not physical as Christ talks in the Gospels. You know when he states do not worry about the first death(human body dies) but the second death(spiritual death or going to Hell).

Ecc 9:5" For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. "

For the living know that they will die (spiritually), but the dead know nothing (about dying), and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Do you really think your analysis makes sense? I would suggest that those who were raised from the dead, Lazarus, the little girl, the boy sleeping in the window, all knew they would die again. And once dead, then comes judgment. For we certainly don't remember them except what is written by God.

33 posted on 11/03/2011 4:22:42 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: NYer; taxcontrol; estrogen
Thanks NYer, ping to estrogen
34 posted on 11/03/2011 4:33:31 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: estrogen

Purgatory is in fact DUE to the efficacy of Christ’s one-time sacrifice. It is the final sanctification/cleansing for those going to heaven. It is not a “last chance to get to heaven” as those who are going to heck aren’t going to experience purgatory, only those going to heaven are.


35 posted on 11/03/2011 4:35:20 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Jedidah; Mad Dawg; Rashputin
The idea of purgatory dates back to the Early Church. Wait, it actually dates back to the Jews as we read in Maccabees. Jews still observe this

Christian catacombs have inscriptions dating from AD 71. This was a continuation of the Jewish practice of praying for the dead

36 posted on 11/03/2011 4:37:54 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: HarleyD
Though Ecc 9 goes on to say

7.. for God now accepteth thy works

In fact,that verse 5 -- signifies that they 'know nothing more' as to the actions of this world unless it is revealed to them by the grace of God. They have no ability or power to secure their eternal state which is a grace from God and which they grew in during their lifetimes if they were saved. Those in final sanctification are in the process to heaven, being scrubbed clean of sin by the grace of God, by the blood of the Lamb

37 posted on 11/03/2011 4:46:16 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos
In fact,that verse 5 -- signifies that they 'know nothing more' as to the actions of this world unless it is revealed to them by the grace of God.

Verse 7 is talking about those who are still alive...

Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

God NOW accepts their works WHILE they are alive. And we should rejoice and take comfort in that. Once dead, then judgment. It only confirms verse 5 which makes a distinction between the living and the dead.

38 posted on 11/03/2011 4:54:47 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
I brought verse 7 to say that for God now accepteth thy works. -- if one accepts this, then works DO have a part to play, right? God accepts they works
39 posted on 11/03/2011 5:54:31 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Judith Anne
This is a caucus thread. If you aren’t Catholic, stay off it.

Wow....great attitude that will really draw people to the Catholic faith....NOT!!!!

Is the "Catholic Caucus" like the Congressional Black Caucus - everyone needs to stay on the plantation or else?

40 posted on 11/03/2011 6:07:31 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: 2nd amendment mama; Religion Moderator

Three hours after the thread was openws as a Catholic Caucus thread, and after numerous non-Catholics had posted on the thread, the Religion Mod changed the designation to non-Caucus.

The confusion was not caused by me. I, like numerous Catholic posters, prefer to post on Caucus threads of interest to me, particularly to stay away from controversy on Catholic topics. If you read the thread, a number of Catholic posters protested against the non-Cathlic posters, not me only. I feel no need to be courteous to those who jump on Caucus threads to argue about Catholic topics. This is commonly done, and is very rude. If you have a problem, take it to the mod. I can assure you, if a Catholic posted on a defferent caucus thread, the other csucus would protest even more loudly, as they have in the past.

Have a charming day.


41 posted on 11/03/2011 6:17:52 AM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Cronos
if one accepts this, then works DO have a part to play, right? God accepts they works

Of course works DO play a part. The question really is WHO gives you those "good" works that are pleasing to God?

There is only ONE work that we need to do, believe. And we even have to pray for our belief. Our Lord Jesus is the vine. We are the branches. It is He that cause us to bear fruit.

God commands that we go and bear fruit. But God must bless us so that we will bear fruit. It's like Augustine's prayer, "Command what you will, and grant what you command." God told Adam and Eve's race to go forth, be fruitful and multiply. Yet we say children are a GIFT from God, which they are. It isn't because Adam and Eve's race ability to create children. It is because God creates the souls. God commands and yet God must grant what He's commanded.

This is an extremely important principle on the nature of God. I only wished that I thought it up. :O)

42 posted on 11/03/2011 7:01:23 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Judith Anne; armydoc; 2nd amendment mama; Responsibility2nd; Jedidah; All
The antagonism on this thread was caused by non-caucus members challenging the caucus on thread.

In the future, when any of you believe the article does not qualify for a "caucus" contact me by Freepmail.

Do not disturb the caucus.

If it does not qualify, I will follow-up and remove the caucus label with an explanation.

43 posted on 11/03/2011 8:03:48 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you.


44 posted on 11/03/2011 8:16:23 AM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Religion Moderator; Judith Anne

You must admit that Judith Anne’s hatefulness contributed to the “antagonism” to which you refer.

I asked an honest question. Her attitude does not reflect well on the church.


45 posted on 11/03/2011 9:02:29 AM PDT by Jedidah
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To: Jedidah
It takes two to tango.

That said, don't make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

46 posted on 11/03/2011 9:28:19 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

So right.

Whatever happened to “Love one another as Christ has loved you.”

“Love your enemies.”

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”


47 posted on 11/03/2011 9:33:21 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I would like to see all of that on this forum.


48 posted on 11/03/2011 9:36:01 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: HarleyD
First you post this on a thread about praying for the dead person's living soul..

Ecc 9:5" For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. "

That the dead know nothing and no reward( Is this not your original intent). Then I show you in scripture were people who have been dead for centuries shows they were in a middle state between here and heaven. Who obviously are going to Heaven by Christ. There are released in the Gospel. Then you go on with still not understanding the significance of what went on with this gospel

"And none of the people that were raised would I classify in the sense of "holy" as I take it you mean."

I quoted scripture only about Holy.The Holy you question is in the Gospel of Matthew. I did not put it there. The Holy Spirit did by Matthew.

Matthew 27:51 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

Freeper Regards!!

49 posted on 11/03/2011 10:28:50 AM PDT by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: Cronos
A good explanation. I read it is the Trip to heaven by theologians that believe in purgatory. That is it in a nutshell to get away from all the misunderstanding stereo type remarks. It is the trip to heaven. Some do not know that if a soul is in this state, heaven is the final destination.

I have read were people thought a soul can lose heaven which is impossible. Why because it is the trip by God in this belief. No more chance for hell.

50 posted on 11/03/2011 10:53:15 AM PDT by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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