Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Harold Bloom's Anxiety of (Mormon) Influence
The New Republic ^ | Nov. 14, 2011 | Alec MacGillas

Posted on 11/15/2011 5:25:40 AM PST by Colofornian

One odd feature of this bizarre Republican primary season is what we haven't seen yet: a full-bore re-litigation of Mitt Romney's Mormonism. There was a one-day tizzy last month over the anti-Mormon comments by Southern Baptist Convention leader Rev. Robert Jeffers, a Rick Perry supporter, but that's pretty much been it, which is all the more notable given that Romney's not the only Mormon in the race.

Instead, the only ones to really contend with the implications of Romney's Mormonism have been a few voices about as far from GOP circles as one can get. First, there was Chris Lehmann's recent cover story in Harper's, which did not address Romney's candidacy directly but which posed an intriguing theory for why the country may be more open to Mormons these days: because the country has increasingly embraced a Mormon-style form of prosperity theology fusing morality, materialism and financial success, with a strong helping of gold fetishism. Mormons, Lehmann suggests, need not worry about making themselves acceptable to other Americans because Americans are becoming them.

Yesterday came a more surprising entrant in the small camp of 2011 Mormon skeptics: Harold Bloom, the legendary Shakespeare scholar at Yale best known for "Anxiety of Influence," (1973), which argued that poets and writers are engaged above all in a struggle with their great precursors. I knew that Bloom had strong side interests in the mystic traditions of Gnosticism and the Kabbalah but I would not have expected him to be weighing in as heavily on the matter of Romney's Mormonism as he did in the Times' Sunday Review. In his characteristically ornate prose, Bloom delivers the bluntest warning against electing a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that I have seen this season. He does so by contrasting Mormon founder Joseph Smith, whom Bloom finds quite compelling, with the current leaders of the church, whom he views as hardly distinguishable from the more self-interested members of the 1 percent now being targeted by the Occupy Movement:

...Should Mr. Romney be elected president, Smith’s dream of a Mormon Kingdom of God in America would not be fulfilled, since the 21st-century Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has little resemblance to its 19th-century precursor. The current head of the Mormon Church, Thomas S. Monson, known to his followers as “prophet, seer and revelator,” is indistinguishable from the secular plutocratic oligarchs who exercise power in our supposed democracy. The Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed has little enough in common with the visions of Joseph Smith. The oligarchs of Salt Lake City, who sponsor Mr. Romney, betray what ought to have been their own religious heritage.

Though I read Christopher Hitchens with pleasure, his characterization of Joseph Smith as “a fraud and conjuror” is inadequate. A superb trickster and protean personality, Smith was a religious genius, uniquely able to craft a story capable of turning a self-invented faith into a people now as numerous as the Jews, in America and abroad...Joseph Smith continues to be regarded by many Mormons as a final authority on issues of belief, though so much of his legacy, including plural marriage, had to be compromised in the grand bargain by which the moguls of Salt Lake City became plutocrats defining the Republican party.

At the same time as he sees today's Mormonism as having become indistinguishable from the rest of the plutocracy, Bloom directly challenges the notion that the faith must be accepted on the same terms as other religions.

A Mormon presidency is not quite the same as an ostensibly Catholic or Protestant one, since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints insists on a religious sanction for its moralistic platitudes. The 19th-century Mormon theologian Orson Pratt, who was close both to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, stated a principle the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never repudiated: “Any people attempting to govern themselves by laws of their own making, and by officers of their own appointment, are in direct rebellion against the kingdom of God.”

Mormons earn godhead though their own efforts, hoping to join the plurality of gods, even as they insist they are not polytheists. ... The Mormon patriarch, secure in his marriage and large family, is promised by his faith a final ascension to godhead, with a planet all his own separate from the earth and nation where he now dwells. From the perspective of the White House, how would the nation and the world appear to President Romney? How would he represent the other 98 percent of his citizens?

Bloom concludes on an ominous note.

Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education, hardly evident in the anti-intellectual and semi-literate Southern Baptist Convention. I wonder though which is more dangerous, a knowledge-hungry religious zealotry or a proudly stupid one? Either way we are condemned to remain a plutocracy and oligarchy. I can be forgiven for dreading a further strengthening of theocracy in that powerful brew.

Granted, Harold Bloom's ruminations on Mormonism deep in the Sunday Times are likely not to register much in the South Carolina GOP primary. But the piece is worth reading in full.


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: bloom; lds; mormon; theocracy
From the article: In his characteristically ornate prose, Bloom delivers the bluntest warning against electing a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that I have seen this season. He does so by contrasting Mormon founder Joseph Smith... with the current leaders of the church, whom he views as hardly distinguishable from the more self-interested members of the 1 percent now being targeted by the Occupy Movement ...Should Mr. Romney be elected president, Smith’s dream of a Mormon Kingdom of God in America would not be fulfilled, since the 21st-century Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has little resemblance to its 19th-century precursor. The current head of the Mormon Church, Thomas S. Monson, known to his followers as “prophet, seer and revelator,” is indistinguishable from the secular plutocratic oligarchs who exercise power in our supposed democracy.

From the article: Mormons earn godhead though their own efforts, hoping to join the plurality of gods, even as they insist they are not polytheists. ... The Mormon patriarch, secure in his marriage and large family, is promised by his faith a final ascension to godhead, with a planet all his own separate from the earth and nation where he now dwells. From the perspective of the White House, how would the nation and the world appear to President Romney? How would he represent the other 98 percent of his citizens?

Bloom also references Joseph Smith as "a superb trickster."

Delacoert posted the Bloom article: Will This Election Be the Mormon Breakthrough?

1 posted on 11/15/2011 5:25:42 AM PST by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: delacoert

Ping mention in post #1


2 posted on 11/15/2011 5:26:08 AM PST by Colofornian (I’ve been amazed at some of the JoPologists and McScuses that have been surfacing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
Evidence of a Mormon leadership penchant for a theocracy. It wouldn't need Romney assuming the initiative...Thomas Monson -- or another Mormon -- could take over for Monson as "prophet" and treat Romney as a puppet on a string. Romney has already sworn a temple oath to devote ALL of his resources to "Zion" (the Mormon church).
Lds Leader Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words)
John Taylor Lds 'Prophet' #3 “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862)
Orson Hyde President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)
Heber J. Grant Lds 'Prophet' #7 "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984)
Harold B. Lee Lds 'Prophet' #11 ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989)
Spencer Kimball Lds 'Prophet' #12 "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983)
What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984)
Ezra Taft Benson Lds 'Prophet' #13 Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #5 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney? Ya hear that Jon Huntsman?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #9 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt? Still listening, Jon?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #10 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt? What say ye Jon?)
Mitt Romney as POTUS??? Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]

3 posted on 11/15/2011 5:28:33 AM PST by Colofornian (I’ve been amazed at some of the JoPologists and McScuses that have been surfacing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

As I have said before, it will be the conservative Christians who will DECIDE the next GOP canidiate.


4 posted on 11/15/2011 5:32:14 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Bloom also references Joseph Smith as "a superb trickster."

Naomi Wolf references Harold Bloom as a dirty old man groper.

5 posted on 11/15/2011 5:38:28 AM PST by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Place marker


6 posted on 11/15/2011 6:25:01 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

What a crock. Mormons were monolithically Democrat until the 70s. The 1970s. Almost 100 years ofter the repudiation of plural marriage. Dude, I know you have a giant axe to grind against the Mormon church, but at least try, for crying out loud, to get stuff that can’t be trivially dismissed.


7 posted on 11/15/2011 6:44:55 AM PST by Technocrat (Cain-Newt 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Technocrat
100 years ofter the repudiation of plural marriage

Let's start with your 100-year ago assumption:

Early 1960s: Author Carmon Hardy cites a poll taken of mainstream Mormons: 40% say they would engage in polygamy if told to by their "prophet."

Then, LDS apostle Bruce McConkie’s book, Mormon Doctrine (pp. 577-579 of 1966 edition, republished 1979 which was approved by the LDS First Presidency…unlike the initial late 1950s version which was not) says that polygamy will return to the Saints before Jesus returns.

"...the holy practice" [of plural marriage]
"will commence again after the Second Coming of the"
[Mormon] "Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium."
Source: Mormon Doctrine, Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Bookcraft, republished, 1979, p. 578 Now we're down to the last 30-50 years...

1998 LDS “Church Handbook of Instructions” for LDS: A deceased woman may be sealed to ALL men to whom she was legally married during her life.” (“Sealed” in this case = sealed for all eternity to her multiple husbands, making her a polyandrous woman) [This sounds contemporary doesn’t it? If the LDS Church did not want this proxy sealing practice being done in its temples, it has total authoritative ‘say-so’—as it does in shutting the door on proxy baptisms in the cases of Jewish Holocaust victims]

Also current practice:: The LDS Church, as mentioned above, still allows a husband to be sealed in its temple to multiple wives (but only one "on this earth" wife at a time).

Hence, each time we see the bumper sticker, "Families are forever" -- that includes the Mormon belief that if you take wives in serial fashion -- you get them ALL as your eternal wives...provided you're a Mormon in good standing with a temple recommend, that is.

If the Mormon church was serious about "eradicating" future polygamy, it would ban the temple ritual for eternal sealings for a second wife. It doesn't. It views itself as the polygamous “feeder system” for eternal life family life.

Mormonism has simply temporarily "colonized" polygamy.

8 posted on 11/15/2011 7:20:43 AM PST by Colofornian (I’ve been amazed at some of the JoPologists and McScuses that have been surfacing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Technocrat
What a crock. Mormons were monolithically Democrat until the 70s. The 1970s

Monolithically Democrat until the 1970s?

They indeed were as a territory up until the 1890s. Then what happened?

Per the 1992 book, Church History: Selections from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, ed. By Daniel H. Ludlow, which is, btw, published by Deseret Book Co. -- owned by the Mormon church, note these Mormon “prophet” machinations in the 1890s:
“To make sure of genuine diversity, the First Presidency asked Joseph F. Smith to join the Republican party, then the less popular of the two parties because of its leading part in the antipolygamy campaign.” P. 529 Bruce A. Van Orden, “Joseph F. Smith” entry

Ah, a mild request, you say?

Keep reading:

“It was time for Utah politics to mirror the federal, with the Democratic and Republican parties both being strong. This took place with impressive dispatch through determined efforts by John Henry Smith, an apostle, and others. At their urging, local LDS leaders—and in some cases entire congregations—were divided along national party lines.” (Edward Leo Lyman, p. 599)

”Urging”? Entire congregations being dictated to, “You become Republicans!” Urging? How about dictate? How about directed?

So much for the Mormon leaders tossing their supposed cherished doctrine of “free agency” under the bus! They tell their dupes they are “free,” all the while controlling even what political party to join!

No wonder 94% of Mormons voted for Romney in ’08 campaign in the states of Utah and Nevada!

1894: Utah reinforces move toward Republicanism:

State politics was reorganized after the 1890 Manifesto discontinuing polygamy was announced, and both the Republican and Democratic party emerged in the state. Many assumed that the traditional ties of many LDS Church leaders to the Democratic party philosophy would make Utah a strong Democratic state. In 1894, however, Republican Frank J. Cannon was elected Utah's delegate in Congress and the Republicans elected 60 members to the Constitutional Convention, a 13-vote majority over the Democratic. [Source for this & below quotes: Utah History Encyclopedia]

After Utah statehood, it swung back the Dems' way by 1896. But 'twas balanced again by 1900...and remained that way -- or with Republicans having more reps...until 1914 when Utah Democrats allied with the Progressive Party.

1920s:

Per the Utah History Encyclopedia: During the 1920s, Utah stayed pretty much in the Republican camp...

So much for your claims of monolithical Dems!

9 posted on 11/15/2011 7:35:15 AM PST by Colofornian (I’ve been amazed at some of the JoPologists and McScuses that have been surfacing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Technocrat
...at least try, for crying out loud, to get stuff that can’t be trivially dismissed.

Posts #8 and #9 have dismissed you as any serious candidate of discussing history with any degree of accuracy.

You have shot once and for all your credibility as a historian. (Time for you to move onto another subject...because your "History" trivial pursuit isn't your forte).

10 posted on 11/15/2011 7:39:04 AM PST by Colofornian (I’ve been amazed at some of the JoPologists and McScuses that have been surfacing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Dear MacGillas:
Go pound sand and stop writing Epstein notes for Romney.

There is enough wrong with his record that I don’t even have to consider his religion.


11 posted on 11/15/2011 8:02:36 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

It seems people don’t want to hear the truth about Mormonism even when they are presented with the truth, kind of like the students at Penn State who didn’t want to hear about their beloved football coach.


12 posted on 11/15/2011 9:10:16 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Oops, looks like I’m gonna have to eat some crow here, I was running on my grandparent’s descriptions of political life in Utah. Actual research does indeed indicate that Republican was the flavor from statehood until WW I, then Democratic mostly until the 80s (except the 50s of course)


13 posted on 11/15/2011 9:11:24 AM PST by Technocrat (Cain-Newt 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Technocrat
Oops, looks like I’m gonna have to eat some crow here, I was running on my grandparent’s descriptions of political life in Utah. Actual research does indeed indicate that Republican was the flavor from statehood until WW I...

(I didn't know you liked crow for desert, too. Uh. If you look at my last post, I highlighted how Republicans were in charge of Utah in the 1920s...that came after WW I...)

14 posted on 11/15/2011 9:15:16 AM PST by Colofornian (I’ve been amazed at some of the JoPologists and McScuses that have been surfacing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Mormonism’s best inheritance from Joseph Smith was his passion for education...

HUH??



In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

15 posted on 11/15/2011 12:20:06 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
He does so by contrasting Mormon founder Joseph Smith, whom Bloom finds quite compelling, with the current leaders of the church, whom he views as hardly distinguishable from the more self-interested members of the 1 percent now being targeted by the Occupy Movement:

OUCH!!

16 posted on 11/15/2011 12:21:23 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Technocrat
Dude, I know you have a giant axe to grind against the Mormon church, but at least try, for crying out loud, to get stuff that can’t be trivially dismissed.

I agree 100%!!!


 

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses  5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses  8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses  8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses  10:230).
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

17 posted on 11/15/2011 12:22:31 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Technocrat
Almost 100 years ofter the repudiation of plural marriage.

Sorry GOD; but we are going to toss you under the bus.


Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President


18 posted on 11/15/2011 12:23:33 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Technocrat
... looks like I’m gonna have to eat some crow here,...

MORMONs (WORTHY [wink-wink] ones at least) finally CAN eat crow; now that the weather has turned cold (12&13)


 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 89
 
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
 
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.
 
  1 A aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
  2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
  3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints.
  4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of bconspiring men in the last days, I have cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
  5 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
  6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
  7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
  8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
  9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
  10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
  11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.
  12 Yea, aflesh also of bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;
  13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.
  14 All agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
  15 And athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
  16 All grain is good for the afood of man; as also the bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
  17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
  18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ashall receive bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;
  19 And shall afind bwisdom and great ctreasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;
  20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.
  21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the adestroying angel shall bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.



19 posted on 11/15/2011 12:26:10 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

People don’t have a clue about the doctrines of the Latter Day Saints. But if Romney gets the nomination, you can be sure that the press will enlighten us.


20 posted on 11/15/2011 10:27:40 PM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

Yep, they’ve got the stories in the can, ready to go.


21 posted on 11/15/2011 10:28:22 PM PST by dfwgator (I stand with Herman Cain.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

“But if Romney gets the nomination, you can be sure that the press will enlighten us.”

And FR will be right there to add fuel to the fire.

On the other hand, it may backfire, as we saw happen after Perry’s pastor stepped in it.

When we members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints were laboring side-by-side with other Christians to pass Prop 8, I do not recall them saying we were going to hell, we’re not real Christians, that we are members of a cult. HOwever, after the victory was won, when it became convenient, some of them turned on us. This is played out here on FR day after day after day.


22 posted on 11/17/2011 8:21:19 AM PST by Saundra Duffy ( For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

You have the advantage that few people know the details of even the theology of their own church. There are profound differences between your Church and mine, but most people will be more interested in the oddities of underwear than in different conceptions of the Trinity. You are fortunate that, for the most part, your church wears the outer garments of the evangelical movement. The more masonic touches that originally meant so much to Joseph Smith, have been eschewed, it seems. I do not think of your Church as a “cult”in the perjorative” sense, but it is as different from Catholicism, or even normative Christianity as the “albi” of the Middle Ages. Such a difference that they caused the outbreak of religious war in Illinois, and NOT just on the issue of polygamy. So radically different was your faith, or at least the perception of it, that the United States forced the territorial constriction of Deseret to the present state of Utah, and then finally to the threat of suppression of your church altogether. It is to your benefit, that most people are totally ignorant of that history. That most people will judge you all for what you seem to be, very middle-American.


23 posted on 11/17/2011 10:28:42 AM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

AMEN!


24 posted on 11/17/2011 2:56:03 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator
Yep, they’ve got the stories in the can, ready to go.

If not; they can't borrow my stuff!

25 posted on 11/17/2011 2:56:36 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
On the other hand, it may backfire, as we saw happen after Perry’s pastor stepped in it.

HA ha!

The only backfire was MORMONism's; realizing (too late) that hollerin' OUCH! only made people decide for themselves to look up the TRUTH of the matter!

26 posted on 11/17/2011 2:58:20 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
HOwever, after the victory was won, when it became convenient, some of them turned on us.

Sweetheart; those of us in the know have been against you HERETIC's from day ONE!

27 posted on 11/17/2011 2:59:24 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
That most people will judge you all for what you seem to be, very middle-American.

One can only salute the success of the SLC PR machine for this: they've done their job well.

And this "I am a MORMON" is inspired!

28 posted on 11/17/2011 3:01:12 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
And this "I am a MORMON" is inspired!

(But by whom???)

29 posted on 11/17/2011 3:01:45 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
Speaking of INSPIRED; one cannot help but feel proud (if you're as MORMON) about THESE words from the Glorious Leaders of MORMONism's past:




"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.



Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'



August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)



1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."



We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.



Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).



When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."



When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)





Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 



 

30 posted on 11/17/2011 3:03:24 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

“Sweetheart; those of us in the know have been against you HERETIC’s from day ONE! “

The Christians were not complaining when we Mormons worked side-by-side with them to pass Prop 8. That was my point. Only when it became convenient did many of them turn on us.

I read in the Bible where some folks accused Jesus Christ HImself of being from the devil and being a heretic.

P.S. It’s considered yelling when you use all caps; violates Internet etiquette.

So . . . whatever.


31 posted on 11/17/2011 6:50:13 PM PST by Saundra Duffy ( For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Blah blah blah. Don’t you ever tire of digging through anti Mormon history books and literature? Really, don’t you have anything better to do?


32 posted on 11/17/2011 6:52:29 PM PST by Saundra Duffy ( For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

I must say they sound very like many other white men of their time. I have my opinion about of their theology—that it is false—but I must say that both Smith and Young were truly extraordinary men. Great chieftains. Both but Smith especially, drew men to him with great force. A veritable Robespierre to be silence lest he be convince his enemies.


33 posted on 11/17/2011 8:19:29 PM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
P.S. It’s considered yelling when you use all caps; violates Internet etiquette.

I guess ALL must mean something different to a MORMON.

34 posted on 11/17/2011 8:29:36 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
Don’t you ever tire of digging through anti Mormon history books and literature? Really, don’t you have anything better to do?

So; do you SUPPORT or REPUDIATE all of the QUOTES from MORMONism's leaders that you so cavalierly dismiss because an ANTI reported them before I did?

35 posted on 11/17/2011 8:31:14 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
I must say they sound very like many other white men of their time.

Oh?

I'll bet that folks NORTH of the Mason-Dixon line may disagree; and THAT is where MORMONism originated...

36 posted on 11/17/2011 8:33:09 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
I must say they sound very like many other white men of their time.

And like many of OUR time as well!

37 posted on 11/17/2011 8:34:36 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Maybe literally above the Mason-Dixon line, in Pennsylvania. But the part of the northwest south of the National Road was settled by Southerners. This included Abraham Lincoln’s father and mother. They originated from Rockingham County, Virginia.


38 posted on 11/17/2011 9:02:05 PM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
I was born a few miles south of the National Road; but have lived north of it most of my life. I lived south of it for 2 years about 8 years ago, but now am ~7 miles north of it again (minus 447 feet).


But, as I type this, I am about that far from the Gulf of Mexico - in Biloxi, and anOTHER beautiful day looks as though it is here!


This reply brought to you from the Numerically Enhanced division of TMI Industries, LLC.

39 posted on 11/18/2011 5:34:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Enjoy, and don’t lose too much on the wheels. Incidentally, I was at a reunion the year before Katrina. Went back several years later, and I was stunned by the changes. Seems asthough Mississippi didn’t get as much money as New Orleans.


40 posted on 11/18/2011 12:08:03 PM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

Not to worry; as I KNOW the odds!

The area about a 1/4 mile back from the Gulf is probably 70% empty lots with steps to nowhere and concrete slabs as a shadow of a former home.

Corporations with money have reestablished on the beach road, but only at I-110 is there wall-to-wall developments again.

It’ll be a while with the economy in the tank the way it is.

Saw a 1.3 acre lot today on Beach Blvd for 3.1 mil. sign was VERY faded.


41 posted on 11/18/2011 5:41:07 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson