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Constantine the Great and the rise of Monasticism
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America ^ | Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh

Posted on 11/15/2011 4:28:39 PM PST by rzman21

Monasticism in the Orthodox Church

His Eminence Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh

THE ORTHODOX MONASTIC TRADITION - THE BEGINNINGS.

Since the early years of the Christian era, Christians have been called by Christ Himself to life in the world without being of the world (John 17:13-16). They are distinct from the world, because of their special conduct and their exemplary ethical life. When, toward the middle of the second century of the Christian era, Christian life reached a low ebb, some Christians, both men and women, reacted to this by raising their own personal standards of austere Christian life. They practiced chastity, celibacy, poverty, prayer and fasting (Justin, I Apology 15:6; Athenagoras, Apology 33; and Galenus, De Sententiis Politiae Platonicae).

These people considered themselves Christians selected to live the life of angels (Matt. 22:30). They lived by themselves or in special houses as a community. At about the middle of the third century, they began fleeing the world and going to the desert, where they established permanent habitations, whether by themselves or in small groups. They are known as the "anchorites" (from anachoresis: departure, flight); the hermits (from eremos: desert); and the monastics (from monos: alone, for a monastic "lives in the presence of God alone").

A good example of an anchorite monk is Saint Anthony the Great, who fled the world [c. 285] and established himself in the desert of Middle Egypt. Many people imitated his example; they went and lived close to him, thus "populating the desert" (Troparion of St. Anthony). These monks lived by themselves in huts and small houses to form a village called "lavra" (later the concept of "lavra" develops, as we will see). St. Anthony is considered the Father of Orthodox monasticism, for his kind of monasticism, that of "living alone with God as his only companion" remained the most cherished monastic ideal for the monks of the Eastern Orthodox Church throughout the ages.

The establishment of Christianity as a legal religion of the roman Empire by Constantine the Great, with the edict of Milan (313), led to a new decline in the ethical life of Christians. In reaction to this decline, many refused to accept any compromises and fled the world to become monastics. Monasticism thrived, especially in Egypt, with two important monastic centers, one in the desert of Nitria, by the Western Bank of the Nile, with Abba Ammoun (d. 356) as its founder, and one in the desert of Skete, south of Nitria, with Saint Makarios of Egypt (d. ca. Egypt 330) as its founder. These monks were anchorites, following the monastic ideal of St. Anthony. They lived by themselves, gathering together for common worship on Saturdays and Sundays only.

Whereas Saint Anthony the Great is the founder of anchorite monasticism, Saint Pachomios of Egypt (d. 346) is the founder of the so-called "cenobitic" (from Koinos bios: communal life) monasticism. Pachomios started as an anchorite himself in the Thebaid, Upper Egypt. Later in that same place, he founded the first "monastery" in the modern sense of the term. St. Anthony's lavra was a village of anchorites who lived by themselves in their own huts and had a life in common, practiced common daily prayer evening and morning, worked in common, had common revenues and expenditures, and common meals, and wore the same identical monastic garb. This garb consisted of a linen tunic or robe and belt, a white goat skin or sheep skin coat and belt, a cone-shaped head-cover or hood (koukoulion) and a linen scarf (maforion or pallium). At this stage, monks were identified with lay people seeking Christian perfection. No religious ceremony was required, and no monastic vows. Monks were prohibited from becoming clergy.

Anchorite monasticism existed in other places besides Egypt. However, "organized monasticism," that is, of the "cenobitic" type, spread to Sinai, Palestine and Syria from Egypt. Two monks from Egypt, St. Ilarion (d. 371) and St. Epiphanios, later bishop of Salamis in Cyprus (d. 403), brought organized monasticism to Palestine.

Monasticism at this time was identified with the "charismatics" of the ancient church. This identification of monasticism with the "enthusiastic element" in the church led to some abuses, of which those around Eustathios of Sebastia (d. 380) are good example. Eustathios introduced monasticism into Asia Minor from Egypt. His followers became overzealous; they taught that marriage and meat-eating made salvation impossible; they were, in fact, advocating monasticism for all Christians. The Council of Gangra (343) condemned these over-enthusiastic practices. Another heresy that affected monasticism during this same time was "Messalianism," which appeared in Mesopotamia (c. 350 A.D.). Messalians were ascetics who practiced poverty, celibacy and fasting. They rejected the sacramental life of the church and pretended to see God with their physical eyes. They spread in Syria and Asia Minor; they finally were anathematized by the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus [431]. Under the influence of the Messalians, the non-sleepers or Vigilant (Akoimetoi) type of monasticism was developed in the area of Constantinople (mid-fifth century). The most famous instance was the Studion monastery, renowned for its polemic against the Iconoclasts. St. Symeon of Antioch [ca. 460] also developed the Stylite type of monasticism, living himself on a pole (stylos) for over 36 years.

Monasticism became a strong movement in the life of the church. The church not only condemned anti-church groups and tendencies within monasticism, but also guided and directed the monastic movement to meet its own needs. One of the ways through which this occurred was through a convergence of monasticism and clergy: monks were now ordained in a special religious service at which they subscribed to special monastic vows, thus becoming a special class of Christians standing between the clergy and the laity. This development was mostly due to the efforts of Saint Basil, Archbishop of Caesaria in Cappadocia.

BASIL THE GREAT AND THE CONSTITUTION OF ORTHODOX MONASTICISM .

Eustathios of Sebastia introduced monasticism to Asia Minor; he influenced St. Basil, who borrowed whatever was good in his innovations, including the monastic garments, monastic vows, and the special religious service (tonsure) that indicated the special status of a monk, superior to that of lay people, and subordinate to the clergy.

Among the many ascetical works of St. Basil, two are the most significant in terms of regulating the life of monasticism: the "Great Rules" (Oroi Kata Platos), and the "Brief Rules" (Oroi Kat' Epitomen). These rules regulate the life in the cenobitic monasteries: they extol the monastic life in common as the ideal Christian life, the "life of perfection," while at the same time indicating the dangers of the solitary anchoretic life. St. Basil's Rules became the Magna Carta of Monasticism, both in the East and in the West, throughout the monastic tradition. The difference is that while in the Christian East the anchorite spirit of St. Anthony continues to persist as the original monastic ideal, thus at times reacting against the organized monasticism of a Pachomian, cenobitic type promulgated by Saint Basil in the Rules, the Christian West, after the modifications to the Basilian Rules by St. Benedict, remains faithful to the cenobitic spirit of organized monasticism.

St. Basil set Christian perfectionism as the goal of monastic life. The monks were to practice Christian virtues together, especially love; to practice obedience to a spiritual father; to practice chastity and poverty, and share the common goods of the monastery. After they achieved Christian perfection, they were allowed to come back to the world and help others to achieve Christian perfection. Thus, the monks had the mission of "social workers" as well. St. Basil's institutions, especially his Basileias, which was at the same time an orphanage, a "kitchen for the poor," and a school for the illiterate was in practice run by monks. This was St. Basil's way of utilizing the monastic movement to benefit the mission of the Church in the world.

Following St. Basil's example, the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (451), in its canonical legislation, placed the monastics in a given Diocese under the direct jurisdiction of the diocesan bishop. Only this bishop can allow the foundation of new monasteries in his diocese (Canons 4 and 8). Thus in the Orthodox Church the possibility of the creation of monastic "Orders," as we see them developing in the West during the Middle Ages, was once and for all eliminated.

Monasticism also spread in the West. Its origins go back to St. Athanasios of Alexandria, who was exiled to the West (399). His Life of St. Anthony was translated into Latin by Evagrios of Antioch (380). Two Latin monks, Rufinus and St. Jerome, who lived in Palestine, brought monasticism to the West when they returned, during the second half of the 4th century. St. Ambrose of Milan (d. 395) introduced monasticism in Northern Italy, and St. Augustine (d. 430) in Northern Africa, whence monasticism was transplanted to Spain. St. Martin of Tours (370) introduced monasticism into Northern France (Gaul), and St. Honoratus of Arles into the South. St. John Cassian founded two monasteries near Marseilles (415); he had become acquainted with monasticism in Egypt and Palestine, and was ordained a deacon by St. John Chrysostom in Constantinople. At. St. John's deposition, John Cassian returned to Gaul to establish monasticism there.

THE ROLE OF MONASTICISM IN THE BYZANTINE AND THE OTTOMAN STATES.

With the development of Monasticism during the fourth century and thereafter, many monastics became involved with the various heresies, especially those concerning the Christological dogma. Most of the monastics were the defenders of the Orthodox faith. Still, Eutyches, an archimandrite from Constantinople, headed the heresy of monophysitism. On the Orthodox side, St. Maximos the Confessor (c. 580-662) played an important role in defeating the heresies of monothelitism and monoenergism. The Sixth Ecumenical Council (680) condemned monothelitism and reestablished the doctrine of Chalcedon. During the time of the iconoclastic controversy, the Studite monks, led by St. Theodore the Studite (759-826), played a very important role. In addition to organizing his monastery, the Studion, on the basis of the cenobitic principles of St. Pachomios and St. Basil, St. Theodore also wrote his three Antirrhetics against iconoclasm.

After the condemnation of the iconoclasts, monasticism thrived even more. Many representatives of the Byzantine aristocracy became monks. Monks were men of letters; clergy received their education in the monasteries. Bishops, metropolitans, and patriarchs were taken from their ranks; monks were involved with the church affairs, at times for the good of the church, at times creating trouble. Monasteries existed in almost every diocese, with the Bishop as their head, planting a cross in their foundations. Since 879, the right was given to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople of planting a cross in monasteries that were under the jurisdiction of other dioceses throughout the empire. They were called "Patriarchal Stavropighiac Monasteries." This right exists to our days.

With the Arab conquest of Syria, Palestine and Egypt (during the 7th century), new centers for monasteries were sought and founded, among which were Mount Olympus in Bithynia and the Holy Mount Athos.

During the entire Byzantine period, the monks took an active part in the life of the Church in general. Still, spirituality was their strength. Concerning this tension in Christian anthropology, two schools of thought were represented; that of Evagrios ponticus (d. 399), who followed a Platonic and Origenistic doctrine pertaining to the "mind," thus de-emphasizing the importance of the human body and becoming dualistic, and St. Makarios of Egypt (or, better, the writings attributed to him), present a more Christian, holistic anthropology; for in this theology man is a psycho-physical entity, and, as such, being a destined to deification. "Prayer of the mind," in the Evagrian spirituality, becomes "prayer of the heart" in the Macarian spirituality. The two schools of thought with the two different anthropologies continue to find representatives throughout the history of the Church.

Saint Symeon, the New Theologian (949-1022), marks an important development in monastic spirituality. A disciple of a Studite monk, he left the Studion to join the small monastery of St. Mamas in Constantinople, were he was ordained a priest and became the abbot. He wrote several works, among which are the fifty-eight hymns of "Divine Love," in which he stresses that the Christian faith is a conscious experience of God. St. Symeon is the exponent of an intensive sacramental life, which leads to this personal conscious experience, as we can see in his Hymns. In this he is a predecessor of Hesychasm, which also shares this personal experience of God in conjunction with intensive sacramental life.

Finally, the spirituality of Hesychasm, as enunciated in the theology of St. Gregory Palamas (1296-1359), is of paramount importance not only in the life of monasticism, but also in the life of the entire Church. An Anthonite monk, St. Gregory took it upon himself to defend the holy Hesychasts of the Holy Mountain in their ways of praying and experiencing the presence of God the "uncreated light" that they contemplated. Barlaam the Calabrian had led the attack against the pious monks and their psycho physical method of prayer, and accused them of "gross materialism," Messalianism, calling them "navel-souls" (omphalopsychoi) and "navel-watchers" (omphaloskopoi).

The hesychastic method of prayer consists of regulating one's breathing with the recitation of the "Jesus prayer": "O Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." The prayer is repeated constantly until it descends from the lips and minds into one's heart. At the end of the process, the peace of Christ is poured into the heart of the worshipper, and the light itself of Christ shines upon him and around him. This light, as that of the Holy Transfiguration of Christ, may also be seen by our physical eyes.

Saint Gregory established that the experience of the Holy Hesychasts was an authentic one, for it is similar to that of the disciples on Mount Tabor. Theologically it is justified by the distinction between essence and energies in God, this light being the "uncreated light," or the "uncreated energy" of God, that "can descend toward us," whereas the essence of God "remains unapproachable" (St. Basil).

After the fall of Constantinople, the number of idiorrythmic monasteries continued to grow, a fact which brought a further decline to monastic life. The 16th century was the lowest ebb. In reaction to this problem, many of the monks themselves, especially on the Holy Mountain, left the main monasteries and turned to idiorrhythmic ones, establishing Sketai (dependencies) of the main monasteries, with a more rigorous typikon (order). Also, Patriarchs Jeremy II of Constantinople, Silvester of Alexandria, and Sophronios of Jerusalem led the attack against idiorrhythmic monasticism, thus managing to counteract its spread. Cenobitic monasticism prevailed for a while, but the tide soon went in its original direction. Many monasteries of the Holy Mountain, including the mother monastery, the Great Lavra, became idiorrhythmic. Today an idiorrhythmic monastery may become cenobitic but not the other way round. Hopefully, this will guarantee that organized monastic life will finally prevail, according to the Basilian ideal of monasticism.

Monasticism played an important role under the Ottoman Empire, as well. The monks not only kept the faith alive, but they also kept the Greek culture and literature alive. Not only did the education of clergy continue at the monasteries, but the monasteries became the "clandestine school" (Krypho Scholeio) for all the Greeks under Turkish occupation. The monks thus prevented the Christian nations under Turkish occupation from being assimilated to them, and thereby became the natural leaders of national ("ethnic") resistance against the oppressors. It is no accident that the Greek Revolution started in 1821 at a monastery in the Peloponnesos, Aghia Lavra, with Metropolitan Germanos of Old Patras raising the banner of revolution and blessing the arms of the Greek freedom fighters.

THE MONASTIC COMMUNITY OF THE HOLY MOUNT ATHOS.

Monasticism existed on the Mountain even before the tenth century. Many anchorites were living on Mt. Athos, especially in the area of Ierissos. The anchorites lived in the cells (kellia), and were organized according to the general pattern, selecting a "leader" (protos) from among themselves to keep a semblance of order. Some of those cells were built for many anchorites to live in, and some of these joint habitations were called "monasteries." Two of these were in existence on the Mount before the tenth century: Zogrophou and Xeropotamou.

However, cenobitic monasticism, which is considered to be the beginning of the Great Republic of Monks on the Holy Mountain, only started in 963 when monk Athanasios the Athonite built the cenobitic monastery of Meghisti Lavra, with the help of the Emperor Nicephoros Phokas and the continued support of Emperor John Tsimiskis. The community soon became a "pan-Orthodox" community: Iberians (Georgians), Russians, Serbians, Bulgarians and Romanians joined the Greeks to form the pan-Orthodox community, a "Republic of Monks."

Each of the monasteries had its own abbot; one, chosen leader as Protos, was installed by the emperor himself. Following the example of Lavra, which was given an autonomous status, all the monasteries were considered royal monasteries, without any ecclesiastical dependence. This was changed by Emperor Alexios Comnenos (1081-1118), who gave the Patriarch the right to supervise the monasteries (Novella 37); all the monasteries thus became "Stavropighiac" and Patriarchal. The Patriarch appointed the Bishop of Ierissos to be his representative at the Holy Mountain.

The multiplication of idiorrythmic monasteries under the Turkish occupation affected the Holy Mountain; they dismissed their abbots and even the Protos in the course of the seventeenth century. The abbot was replaced by two or three "trustees" chosen yearly by the monks; the Protos was replaced by four supervisors (Epistatai) who changed every year. One of them chosen as chief supervisor (Protepistatis), as a "first among equals." The Republic, consisting of twenty monasteries, is still represented in the Synaxis by as many representatives that meet twice a year, or as necessary. The representative of Lavra presides over the Synaxis. This typikon, established in 1783 by Patriarch Gabriel IV of Constantinople, still regulates the life of the Anthonite republic of monks.

ORTHODOX MONASTICISM TODAY.

With the conversion of the Slavs in the ninth and tenth century, monasticism spread to the Slavic countries as well, where it continues to thrive up to our day, in spite of communist oppression. Important monasteries in Russia - Zagorsk, Optimo, and Valamo - continue the hesychastic tradition. Great monks and spiritual fathers were exponents of this tradition, including St. Nilus (1433 1508), St. Seraphim of Sarov (1759-1833), and Father John of Kronstadt (1829-1908), a married priest. Monasticism thrives today in Romania, Serbia, and even Bulgaria.

On the Holy Mountain itself, there is an impressive monastic renewal: several monasteries, inactive in the recent past, were recently populated by young, educated, enthusiastic monks, who give new life and a new spirituality, more in conformity with that of St. Basil, to the Holy Mountain. The monastery of Stavronikita is an example. Under the guidance of important spiritual fathers on the Holy Mountain today - among them ore Father Ephraim, abbot of Philotheou; Father Aimilianos, abbot of Simonos Petra; and abbot Vassilios of Stavronikita - monasticism is thriving on the Holy Mountain, both spiritually and intellectually. The pattern of cenobitic life prevails at present, and continues to gain ground.

Spiritual fathers from the Holy Mountain visit the States, including Holy Cross Theological School. Interest has been generated among young men and women who aspire to monastic life and wish to see its tradition flourish in America. The St. Gregory Palamas Monastery in Hayesville, Ohio under the Greek Orthodox Diocese of Pittsburgh, has this potential.

In our day, there is a monastic renewal, as a reaction to the materialist spirit in our society, in almost every Orthodox land. Longovarda Monastery, Nea Makri, and St. John's Monastery on Patmos are some of the active monasteries in Greece outside Mount Athos. As for the States, the major Holy Places, monasteries and shrines connected with them, are under the jurisdiction of the Synodal Church outside Russia. Among these monasteries are: Saint Tikhon's, near South Canaan, Pennsylvania (OCA); Novo-Diveyevo convent, near Spring Valley, New York; Holy Transfiguration Monastery and Convent in Boston, Convent of the Vladimir Mother of God, San Francisco, California, Holy Dormition Monastery, Northville, Alberta, New Skete Monastery, near Cambridge, New York and Holy Annunciation Monastery (Carpatho Russian Diocese), Tuxedo Park, New York.

SUGGESTIONS FOR FURTHER READING:

H. Waddell, The Desert Fathers, London 1936.

N.F. Robinson, Monasticism in the Orthodox Churches, London, 1916.

C. Cavarnos, Anchored in God, Athens, 1959.

© 2011 Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. Terms of Use. Copyright Sources. This site has been made possible by a grant from Leadership 100.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; evangelical; orthodox
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To: muawiyah

You wrote:

“Sounds to me that you are prone to discount ALL Orthodox claims, even archaeological evidence.”

You presented none.

” Now, where do you see St. Sophia in all this?”

In the same place it’s been since the 6th century.

” Did the Bishop of Rome have authority over the services there?”

When?

“Did he direct the order of worship?”

Again, when?

“Come on now, “vladimir998”, you’ve blown your Eastern cover.”

Show me when I claimed any. Can you?

“BTW, I think the first time I encountered you on Free Republic you were denying the existence of the “Dark Ages” or the vast desolation in Western Europe shortly after 535 AD.”

I do not use terms which make no sense. The “Dark Ages” effectively makes no sense. What centuries were the “Dark Ages”? How do we know? Based on what criteria? According to what standard? Who uses the term for political purposes? Why should I ally myself with them by using the same term when it makes no sense?


41 posted on 11/16/2011 6:41:07 AM PST by vladimir998 (Public school grads are often too dumb to realize they're dumb)
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To: vladimir998
1700? No Orthodox church along the Volga?

Vlad, my boy, you are nuts ~

42 posted on 11/16/2011 6:46:41 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: vladimir998

Oooh! I’ll take this one. It’s a gimme. It is so simple a child can understand it!

MATTHEW 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

“Moses’ seat” is the Old Testament equivalent of the later claimed “Seat of St. Peter” from Linus forward. You do not find it elsewhere because it did not exist. It was fraudulent.

.

God gave to Moses the same authority (e.g. divorce) he gave to Peter but not to their “successors”, pretended or not:

NUMBERS 12
5 And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

.

MATTHEW 23
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

Just look around the Vatican.

.

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Pope = Papa = Father (as are all priests called)
Who gave you the right to directly contradict scripture?

.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
...
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

The history of the Catholic Church. (e.g. on the destruction of the Cathars mixed with Catholics, ‘kill them all and let God sort them out’.)


43 posted on 11/16/2011 6:47:35 AM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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To: muawiyah

Learn to read more carefully. You made a FALSE claim. There was no Viking funeral in 1700. The one you’re talking about happend in about 921. You were off by almost 800 years.

There were NO ORTHODOX CHURCH ALONG THE VOLGA in 921. Russia was only converted in 988. Is this beginning to sink in now? You were wrong about the story. You were wrong about when it took place. You were wrong in your conclusions. You apparently didn’t even read closely the book you cited. Again, look at page 425 of the book you mentioned.

Get a clue.


44 posted on 11/16/2011 6:54:15 AM PST by vladimir998 (Public school grads are often too dumb to realize they're dumb)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

You wrote:

“Oooh! I’ll take this one. It’s a gimme. It is so simple a child can understand it!”

Except you apparently don’t.

““Moses’ seat” is the Old Testament equivalent of the later claimed “Seat of St. Peter” from Linus forward. You do not find it elsewhere because it did not exist. It was fraudulent.”

So, you’re claiming Jesus told the Apostles to follow something that was fraudulent? “All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do”

“Pope = Papa = Father (as are all priests called)
Who gave you the right to directly contradict scripture?”

It doesn’t contradict scripture. If your interpretation was valid then Jesus would have contradicted His own words. See John 8:55-57

“The history of the Catholic Church. (e.g. on the destruction of the Cathars mixed with Catholics, ‘kill them all and let God sort them out’.)”

The whole “kill them all” myth is exactly that. There’s no reliable historical evidence anyone ever said them before the storming of a town in the Albigensian crusade. Medieval warfare was harsh. What was done on the battlefield by soldiers has nothing to do with Catholic doctrine.

Can you actually present any evidence for your claims?


45 posted on 11/16/2011 7:07:35 AM PST by vladimir998 (Public school grads are often too dumb to realize they're dumb)
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To: muawiyah

Is it beginning to sink in now?

Do you now realize that you didn’t even get right what the book said?

It was 921, not 1700.

It wasn’t that Russia was just nominally Christian, it was that Russia wasn’t Christian at all because it didn’t convert until more than 60 years AFTER THE EVENT you mentioned.

Get it now?


46 posted on 11/16/2011 7:10:23 AM PST by vladimir998 (Public school grads are often too dumb to realize they're dumb)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

Don’t place yourself in the place of God. All I see is not the Word of God, but rather your twisting of the Word of God to suit your own prejudices.

There’s not much difference between someone like you who twists the scriptures to suit your prejudices against Apostolic Christians, both Catholic and Orthodox, and those who twist the Scriptures to defend their love of homosexuality.

In the end, those of you who believe in Solo Scriptura set your own consciences above Scripture even if you refuse to admit it.

It’s not much of a leap from going from being your own Pope and Ecumenical Council to being your own God.

Liberal and Fundamentalist Protestants are two sides of the same coin.


47 posted on 11/16/2011 7:30:46 AM PST by rzman21
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To: vladimir998

Arguing with Fundamentalist Protestants is like arguing with a brick wall because all you ever get is a mutual monologue.

They have their minds made up, and no amount of historical argument or appeals to how the Church Fathers read the Bible, etc. will open their minds.

They believe that they are individually superior to the Church Fathers and that they have an infallible understanding not of what the Bible says, but what it means. (Even Satan can quote scripture.)

As a historical note, the Patriarch of Alexandria was referred to as Pope before the Popes of Rome adopted the title.


48 posted on 11/16/2011 7:37:31 AM PST by rzman21
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To: vladimir998
If another poster says that you, personally, worship Mary then ping me because that would be "making it personal" - it would be "reading your mind."

If however he says that Catholics worship Mary then he is expressing his own mind and not reading yours.

As another example, "Scientologists are cultists" is not making it personal but "You are a cultist" is making it personal. Another, "Protestants are heretics" is not making it personal but "You are a heretic" is making it personal.

49 posted on 11/16/2011 7:41:59 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

kinda like religion moderators are poopies is different from you are a poopie?


50 posted on 11/16/2011 7:46:01 AM PST by going hot (Happiness is a momma deuce)
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To: vladimir998

No, Jesus did not say follow something fraudulent. The Pharisees had some authority. But had it been entirely legitimate, as Moses followed all the Lord’s commandments, he would not have differentiated them from the authority of Moses in Numbers 12.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Uh... the Jews were physically the Children of Abraham. The physical relationship of Father goes back to the 10 Commandments. How many children has the “Pope” had?


51 posted on 11/16/2011 7:48:51 AM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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To: rzman21

I don’t even see you reference the Word of God.

You can’t beat something with nothing.


52 posted on 11/16/2011 7:51:27 AM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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To: Religion Moderator

Catholics do not worship Mary.

But they definitely fantasize about her, e.g. the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the intercession of Mary.


53 posted on 11/16/2011 7:57:20 AM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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To: going hot

Yes.


54 posted on 11/16/2011 7:58:42 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

Playing Bible bingo is a fruitless endeavor. Even the Devil can quote scripture.

And considering that scriptural citations come down to interpretation, I’m not interested in playing your games.

In the end, I’m arguing with you and not with scripture.


55 posted on 11/16/2011 8:02:27 AM PST by rzman21
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

So do the Orthodox. And Martin Luther did for that matter.


56 posted on 11/16/2011 8:04:15 AM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21

> Even the Devil can quote scripture.

But you can’t? From you it sounds dismissive.

> And considering that scriptural citations come down to interpretation, I’m not interested in playing your games.

A “living, breathing document”, is it?

> In the end, I’m arguing with you and not with scripture.

And since I only quote Scripture, you are arguing with Scripture. Where you misinterpret, as with “Father”, I correct you. But you just ignore all my cites or, worse, attempt to set Scripture against Scripture.


57 posted on 11/16/2011 8:17:25 AM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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To: vladimir998
You are going by dates of official Christianization ~ how utterly stupid. Missionaries had been at work years ~ decades ~ even centuries before those dates.

And no, the date is in the 1700s.

Russia is a huge country with vast expanses between populated centers. The situation was far worse a century ago, and two centuries ago they didn't even have roads in much of the place.

I think you are confounding Kazan with Northwestern Russia which wasn't even demarcated ~ a land of reindeer, swamps, Pomars and Sa'ami.

58 posted on 11/16/2011 8:22:51 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

Yeah. It’s a living, breathing document that you interpret as you choose by linking together passages that agree with your preconceived notions.

You aren’t telling me what scripture says. Rather all I’m seeing is your interpretation of scripture.

You rely on your Fundamentalist Traditions of men when it comes to interpreting the Bible. So you do exactly what you criticize the Church for doing.

I have nothing more to say.


59 posted on 11/16/2011 8:53:56 AM PST by rzman21
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

I choose not to because you will not listen anything I have to say about scripture, so arguing with you is a fruitless exercise.

Here’s my scripture citation for you from Proverbs 26:4-14:
4 When arguing with fools, don’t answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are. 5 When arguing with fools, be sure to answer their foolish arguments, or they will become wise in their own estimation. 6 Trusting a fool to convey a message is as foolish as cutting off one’s feet or drinking poison! 7 In the mouth of a fool, a proverb becomes as limp as a paralyzed leg. 8 Honoring a fool is as foolish as tying a stone to a slingshot. 9 A proverb in a fool’s mouth is as dangerous as a thornbush brandished by a drunkard. 10 An employer who hires a fool or a bystander is like an archer who shoots recklessly. 11 As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. 12 There is more hope for fools than for people who think they are wise. 13 The lazy person is full of excuses, saying, “I can’t go outside because there might be a lion on the road! Yes, I’m sure there’s a lion out there!” 14 As a door turns back and forth on its hinges, so the lazy person turns over in bed.


60 posted on 11/16/2011 8:56:29 AM PST by rzman21
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