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Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish
Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: catholic; ecus; episcopagan; episcopaganbishop; homonaziagenda; homonazibishop; homosexualagenda; homosexualbishop; religiousfaggot; religiousleft; romancatholic; sanfranpsycho; sanfransicko; sexualpaganism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
>>my friend, how do you know that the Apostle John wrote the Gospel of John.<<

It didn’t take the RCC to come up with that when any other scholar could and did conclude the same thing.

1. He was evidently a contemporary of the events described:

The writer was personally known to the High Priest and entered his residence along with Jesus on the night when Jesus was arrested (18:15). This author alone mentions the fact that it was the servant of the High Priest who had his ear cut off by Peter (18:10). This author deals with questions which are relevant to the period prior to AD 70 and not with controversies which were occurring in the second century connected with the Gnostic and Ebionite groups. (cf 6:15; 11:47-50) Many other details indicate contempoaneity with the events described.

2. He was Jew of Palestine:

The opening words of the book demonstrate an acquaintance with Hebrew (cf Genesis 1:1). On three occasions there are quotes from the Hebrew (12:40; 13:18; 19:37). There is intimate knowledge displayed regarding the Hebrew festivals viz. the Festival of Booths (7:2 Tabernacles KJV) the Feast of Dedication (10:22) and the Passover (21:13,23; 6:4; 13:1;18:28). Jewish customs and ways of thinking are familiar to the author eg. questions about purification (3:25;11:55), marriage customs, especially the method of arranging the waterpots (2:1-10); customs relating to burial (11:38,44; 19:31,40). Knowledge of the geography of Palestine is demonstrated such as the descent from Cana to the Sea of Galilee (2:12) and also the fact that Jacob's well is deep (4:11). Specific places such as Ephraim (11:54), Mount Gerizim (4:20), Jerusalem and the Kidron valley (18:1), Bethsaida and Siloam (5:2; 9:7), and Golgotha (19:17 etc).

3. He was John, the beloved disciple.

This can be deduced in a general sense from the above facts. He indicates the precise hours when particular events took place (1:39; 4:6,52; 19:14). He records quotations of the disciple Philip (6:7; 14:8), Thomas (11:16;14:5), Judas (14:22), and Andrew (6:8-9). He leaned on the breast of Jesus at supper on the night of the betrayal (13:23-25) and was among the three 'inner circle' of Peter, James, and John. Peter is distinguished from this author by name in 1:41-42;13:6,8 and James had become a martyr very early, long before the Gospel was written (Acts 12:2). He has a particular way of introducing himself (John 13:23; 19;26; 20:2; 21:7,20). These facts cumulatively make it difficult to come to any other conclusion, but that John was the author of the Gospel which bears his name.

Source: The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, Merril F. Unger, Moody, Chicago. 1988. p 701.

751 posted on 11/27/2011 7:41:06 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
The mass did not become an official doctrine until pronounced by the Lateran Council of 1215 under the direction of Pope Innocent III,

There was no priests in the new church.it was about 300 AD before the first priesthood appeared..

Greg Dues has written Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide (New London: Twenty Third Publications, 2007). On page 166 he states, "Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions."

"A clearly defined local leadership in the form of elders, or presbyteroi, became still more important when the original apostles and disciples of Jesus died. The chief elder in each community was often called the episkopos (Greek, 'overseer'). In English this came to be translated as 'bishop' (Latin, episcopus). Ordinarily he presided over the community's Eucharistic assembly."

"When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice, the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title 'priest' (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist."

No priesthood, no sacrifice, no "liturgy" (unless one calls singing liturgy), no altar... The Catholic mass, and system is found NO WHERE in the Biblical NT church ..sorry you have been had

752 posted on 11/27/2011 8:12:50 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: MarkBsnr
However, rebaptism is only for pagans. I wonder if this will conclude as I suspect..

Were the people that John baptized re baptized?

753 posted on 11/27/2011 8:31:15 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: MarkBsnr
I don't doubt the ability of God to preserve Truth. He Has - in the institution of the Church. It is the institutions of men - the legacy of the Reformation - that take away from the transmission of God's word to men.

how nice of ya :)

So how do you pick and choose what is preserved truth and what is fable in the Bible mark?? How do you know the church is an institution of God??

Capitalizing the G is good.. but believing His word ...is what is God expects of us...

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

754 posted on 11/27/2011 8:40:18 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: narses

That NT church had no mass, There was no priesthood, no altars. The Lords table was not considered a sacrifice in the early church, so there were no need for those things that one needs for a sacrifice. no “eucharist, no vestments , no confessions, no 7 sacraments, no priesthood, no pope, no immaculate conception , no assumption, no relics, no purgatory, no indulgences, no “holy water”, no such animal as “apostolic succession... nada... nothing .....
There was no Roman catholic church until the 300’s even then there was no “mass” no “sacrifice” , no purgatory , etc...

If you can show me any of these things in scripture practiced in the NT church please do... if you can show me where jesus told the apostles their “gifts” were transferable please do...


755 posted on 11/27/2011 8:57:18 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: MarkBsnr

Fundamentalists have more confidence in their own personal infallibility than they do in serving God or others.


756 posted on 11/27/2011 9:37:42 PM PST by rzman21
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To: RnMomof7

That NT church had no mass, There was no priesthood, no altars. The Lords table was not considered a sacrifice in the early church, so there were no need for those things that one needs for a sacrifice. no “eucharist, no vestments , no confessions, no 7 sacraments, no priesthood, no pope, no immaculate conception , no assumption, no relics, no purgatory, no indulgences, no “holy water”, no such animal as “apostolic succession... nada... nothing .....
There was no Roman catholic church until the 300’s even then there was no “mass” no “sacrifice” , no purgatory , etc...

>>The burden of proof is on you. Prove it.

>>What is your evidence that the Church of Rome wasn’t founded until the 300s?

Show me where Eusebius says the Church of Rome was founded in the 300s. I’m not a Roman Catholic, so I don’t live or die by Rome’s claims.

The only thing you stated that is true is there weren’t any indulgences, but I want you to prove to us exclusively using patristic texts.

You might start by reading Dom Gregory Dix’s book “Shape of the Liturgy”. I’ll add that he was an Anglican.
http://bit.ly/ry2ZLX

I know how ignorant I am, so prove it without making use of the Bible. That’s my challenge to you.

You are infallible too, so I want to bask in your intellect.


757 posted on 11/27/2011 9:46:23 PM PST by rzman21
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To: metmom

I RARELY post my interpretation, rather let Scripture speak for itself.

>>From what I can see that’s all you do. You have your interpretation of Scripture and the Church Fathers have theirs.

You proclaim your interpretation of the Bible based on your selective quotation of scripture outside of historical, linguistic, and other contexts that any trained exegete of scripture would use.

So my argument is with your 21st century reinterpretation of scripture in the light of the sectarian Tradition you were raised in.

Had you been raised, say as a Lutheran, you’d be singing a slightly different tune.

Take the Power of the Keys for example, which Lutherans like Catholics and Eastern Orthodox claim give priests and ministers the authority to remit sins. Lutherans say its based on Sola Scriptura, but you don’t.

John 20:21 for example is the scriptural basis for sacramental absolution. Martin Luther even taught this. I didn’t accept confession and absolution as a Catholic. I learned it as a Lutheran.

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc06/htm/iii.lxv.htm

But in your TRADITION, it’s unbiblical. So that comes down to your private opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession_in_the_Lutheran_Church

Face it, you have appointed yourself Pope and Ecumenical Council and have endowed yourself with the gift of infallibility.

There’s hardly any difference from your last post to me and an ex cathedra statement from the Pope of Rome or the Council of Nicaea’s declaration on the divinity of Christ.

I don’t claim infallibility for myself, but it seems you have done so implicitly.

Don’t tell me what is Biblical and what isn’t because that judgment is your private judgment.

It smacks of spiritual pride and arrogance. James 2:24.


758 posted on 11/27/2011 10:01:57 PM PST by rzman21
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To: MarkBsnr

The Argumentum ad Constaninem doesn’t explain why the Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East remain so close to Catholicism despite the fact they broke with Rome in rebellion against Constantine’s successors.

The Constantine folks seem to forget that his immediate successors persecuted people like St. Athanasius for his orthodox confession of faith.

Perhaps the Evangelicals who bash Constantine are closet Arians. :)


759 posted on 11/27/2011 10:05:25 PM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21; RnMomof7; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
RnMom:That NT church had no mass, There was no priesthood, no altars. The Lords table was not considered a sacrifice in the early church, so there were no need for those things that one needs for a sacrifice. no “eucharist, no vestments , no confessions, no 7 sacraments, no priesthood, no pope, no immaculate conception , no assumption, no relics, no purgatory, no indulgences, no “holy water”, no such animal as “apostolic succession... nada... nothing ..... There was no Roman catholic church until the 300’s even then there was no “mass” no “sacrifice” , no purgatory , etc...

tc:>>The burden of proof is on you. Prove it.

Read the Book of Acts. Show us where any of that was practiced in the early church.

Please also provide Scripture instructing believers to perform those specific duties, and show us the Scriptural evidence of the doctrines of the immaculate conception, assumption of Mary, holy water, the confessional, for example.

In addition, it's not possible to prove a negative. Prove that they did have it.

Nobody is obligated to believe any claim of something having happened without proof of it. Say so doesn't constitute proof.

The mentality of *It's true until you prove it isn't because we claim it* is the last resort of those who have NO argument or evidence to support their claims.

Epic fail.

760 posted on 11/27/2011 10:06:20 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: rzman21

The Oriental Orthodox broke with Rome in 451 about 125 years after Constantine.

And the Assyrian Church of the East broke with Rome in 431.

Yet they believe in everything that Evangelicals hate the Roman Catholic Church for save Roman supremacy and the scholastic interpretation of purgatory.

(I might note that the scholastic interpretation of purgatory isn’t a dogma of the Catholic Church because Eastern Catholics are not required to teach it.)


761 posted on 11/27/2011 10:08:26 PM PST by rzman21
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To: metmom

Do what, read the Book of Acts with your sectarian bias as the start?

There’s ample extra-scriptural evidence for the Catholic-Orthodox perspective.

I’m not telling anyone to disprove a negative. The Book of Acts only tells part of the story.


762 posted on 11/27/2011 10:13:24 PM PST by rzman21
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To: metmom

I have plenty of evidence, but the disproof of a negative comes in because you will reject any evidence I put forth.

Sola Scriptura rests on Occam’s Razor, not the Bible.


763 posted on 11/27/2011 10:15:12 PM PST by rzman21
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To: MarkBsnr
The Pope has less money and possessions than you do. Think on that.

You need to think on it. Reality is you have no idea what the pope has only what you are told and then add you have no idea what I have - equals a statement that truly lacks substance.

I could be in a class where there are hundreds of millions have less than me - that wouldn't make the pope unique.

However, the Vatican/RCC are into a 'poor attitude' with their 'vows of poverty'. Like being poor is a virtue. Yet, the pope lives in opulence with all it's pomp. 'Do as I say and not as I do'.

The pope is a KEPT man.

764 posted on 11/27/2011 10:35:54 PM PST by presently no screen name ( If it’s not in God’s Word - don’t pass it off as truth! That’s satan’s job.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Excellent post.

no clue about Church History.

Pretty much sums it up. Otherwise...

"To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."
John Henry Cardinal Newman

765 posted on 11/27/2011 10:36:27 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: rzman21
Okay. What do these “extra-biblical” sources say about when a priesthood began in the Christian church? About when vestments for these priests became necessary? What “evidence” is there for a requirement that certain special hand movements be made during the mass?

Or for monasteries and cults like the Legion of Christ (part of the sexual abuse scandal ongoing)?

766 posted on 11/28/2011 12:17:01 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: CynicalBear
Nah, if a person doesn’t even grasp the track of the conversation it’s just not worth the time.

We don't care if you lose track of the conversation. We are instructed by God to try to bring you to Christ. We don't consider it a waste of time.

767 posted on 11/28/2011 4:43:08 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: RnMomof7
Were the people that John baptized re baptized?

Deflecting again? Why are you being so coy about baptism? Is there a Mormon skeleton in your closet?

768 posted on 11/28/2011 4:45:30 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: RnMomof7
I don't doubt the ability of God to preserve Truth. He Has - in the institution of the Church. It is the institutions of men - the legacy of the Reformation - that take away from the transmission of God's word to men.

how nice of ya :)

It's not about me. It's about Christ.

So how do you pick and choose what is preserved truth and what is fable in the Bible mark?? How do you know the church is an institution of God??

I don't pick and choose - that is a legacy of the Reformation. I simply believe in the institution that Christ left for us and that He said would never fail. In spite of the Reformation and the efforts of satan.

Capitalizing the G is good.. but believing His word ...is what is God expects of us...

Giving up the daily bowls of YOPIOS might go a long way to meeting those expectation.

769 posted on 11/28/2011 4:49:17 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: rzman21
Fundamentalists have more confidence in their own personal infallibility than they do in serving God or others.

After dealing with them lo these many years, I have come to the conclusion that it is not about God for them. It is entirely, wholly and completely about them. Look at their words. God is a magic talisman, to be invoked in public. But everything is about them. My salvation, me my mine.

770 posted on 11/28/2011 4:52:39 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: rzman21
Perhaps the Evangelicals who bash Constantine are closet Arians. :)

I think that it is a lot worse than that and they are not in the closet. The Presbyterians are the latest...

771 posted on 11/28/2011 4:54:24 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: presently no screen name
The Pope has less money and possessions than you do. Think on that.

You need to think on it. Reality is you have no idea what the pope has only what you are told and then add you have no idea what I have - equals a statement that truly lacks substance.

JPII left an estate that was comprised of nothing that needed to be disposed of. If you possess a car or a house, you have more than he did.

I could be in a class where there are hundreds of millions have less than me - that wouldn't make the pope unique.

It also does not change the fact that the Pope does not have wealth and the heroes and aftermath of the Reformation did and do.

However, the Vatican/RCC are into a 'poor attitude' with their 'vows of poverty'. Like being poor is a virtue. Yet, the pope lives in opulence with all it's pomp. 'Do as I say and not as I do'.

I'm assuming ignorance of the Pope's lifestyle here. You may wish to actually research facts before you post.

The pope is a KEPT man.

Did you come up with all by yourself?

772 posted on 11/28/2011 5:01:08 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: count-your-change

What’s your beef with vestments? Luther liked them.


773 posted on 11/28/2011 5:22:54 AM PST by rzman21
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To: MarkBsnr

There are few differences between Evangelicals and secularists when it comes to their worldview. Evangelicals just have Christian sprinkles on theirs.

Engaging these Fundamentalists here on FR has shown me they have the same sort of “you can’t tell me what to do” attitude as the secularists.

Liberalism and Evangelicalism are first cousins.


774 posted on 11/28/2011 5:25:24 AM PST by rzman21
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To: MarkBsnr
JPII left an estate that was comprised of nothing that needed to be disposed of

His body did and the only thing that matters is the soul and he gave that to Mary.

It also does not change the fact that the Pope does not have wealth ...

The unbiblical 'vow of poverty' took care of that - however, he lived a very wealthy lifestyle as a welfare recipient - his sheep support his opulent lifestyle.

I'm assuming ignorance of the Pope's lifestyle here. You may wish to actually research facts before you post.

It's ignorance is on your part. You portray him as going through garbage and begging on the corner and living in section 8 housing. Reality is - his subjects kiss his ring while someone shines the Mercedes and the seamstress makes his glittery garments and the chef prepares his meals while others are cleaning the marble. Say one thing - do another. Give to your church, there are lifestyles that need to be supported. It's called giving to the poor in Catholicese.

Popes are the continuation of Roman Emperors. No association with Jesus - who said 'Come, follow Me'. They chose a worldly secular path - the wide road. Sola Popa indeed.
775 posted on 11/28/2011 5:55:20 AM PST by presently no screen name ( If it’s not in God’s Word - don’t pass it off as truth! That’s satan’s job.)
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To: rzman21; count-your-change
What’s your beef with vestments? Luther liked them.

So what????

Why do you think it's relevant what some persons personal opinion is about clothing?

Catholics keep pointing out what they call leaders of Protestantism said and did as if affects what we think of do.

We do NOT follow men. They had their issues, just like the rest of us and when what they say or do doesn't line up with Scripture, it gets recognized as wrong and tossed.

Anyone who puts a church leader of any kind on a pedestal is asking for trouble.

776 posted on 11/28/2011 6:11:14 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name
Matthew 8:20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."

Luke 9:58 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."

777 posted on 11/28/2011 6:15:17 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Exactly.

“But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Matt 6:19,20

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/08/60minutes/main20052140.shtml

But the Vatican agreed to let “60 Minutes” and correspondent Morley Safer in to see some of the priceless artifacts of our collective past.

In Rome, turn a corner and you bump into antiquity - we arrived at the Vatican to find a medieval costume parade in progress. What better way to begin a trek through history.

“There’s about two million printed books,” library curator Timothy Janz told Safer.

And inside the library, the past surrounded us again, as we were shown the magnificent building and its riches.

For instance: the spectacular Bible commissioned in 1476 by the Duke of Urbino. Janz tells us the Bible took years to make by hand: letter by letter, picture by picture.

“Decorated with real gold,” he pointed out, while showing Safer the magnificently ornate pages.

It’s just one of the library’s 80,000 handwritten manuscripts from the ages before the printing press. Add to that two million or so printed books, Christian and pagan, sacred and profane, in virtually every language known to man. There are thousands of prints and drawings

And there’s a huge collection of ancient coins, including the money used in Palestine 2,000 years ago. There are the kind of silver coins Judas was said to have been paid to betray Christ.

There is a map of the world, drawn 50 years before Columbus: at its edge, the Towers of Paradise are depicted. And the library holds an immediate best seller - Columbus’ description of his voyage to the new world, published in 1493.

“In a certain way, the library is kind of the attic of Western civilization,” Safer noted.

“It’s so true. And it’s like many attics, you know? You put things up all the time. You keep on pushing over boxes to make space for more things,” Father Michael Collins, an Irish priest who has written extensively about the Vatican, told Safer.

If you would put the library’s shelves end to end, they would stretch for 31 miles.

“Is there anyone, any single person who really knows what the library holds?” Safer asked.

“Nobody knows exactly what’s there. Because it will be impossible for the human brain, I think, to understand, to remember the titles, who wrote it, when they were written,” Father Collins said.


778 posted on 11/28/2011 6:40:18 AM PST by presently no screen name ( If it’s not in God’s Word - don’t pass it off as truth! That’s satan’s job.)
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To: rzman21
Luther may have and that would seem to show old habits (no pun) are hard to break.
Did not Jesus condemn those who set themselves apart from their brothers by elaborate dress, titles?
Imagine Paul telling Timothy,

“Now see here old man, You're to get rid of these Jewish ephods and outer garments and go with......go with something that shows your rank, say something with scarlet satin or silk, maybe a few crosses and rosaries....oh yes! When you go for the full monte of dress up get this big pointy hat, kinda reminds of a fish's mouth doesn't it, eh? And here's a whole list of stuff for the prebyters to wear when officiating.”

Right. My “beef” is that such are counter to Biblical principal and yours should be that it is a novelty that violates apostolic tradition.

779 posted on 11/28/2011 6:44:15 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: presently no screen name

We have two bookshelves and a couple boxes.


780 posted on 11/28/2011 6:44:55 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

And Luther probably liked Mrs. Luther too though she might’ve been ugly as a toad for all I know.


781 posted on 11/28/2011 6:59:26 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom
Are your books etched in real gold?

Whatever the Vatican/RCC does is opposite of what God's Word says. Their priceless possessions will all be destroyed.

Mark 8:36 "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?"

Mark 8:38 "If anyone is ashamed of me and MY WORDS in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

They prefer their worldly riches and their man-made teachings/doctrines. Satan's empire.
782 posted on 11/28/2011 7:01:03 AM PST by presently no screen name (If it’s not in God’s Word - don’t pass it off as truth! That’s satan’s job.)
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To: count-your-change

Nowhere in scripture is wearing vestments forbidden for Christian clergy.

Where is the verse that forbids Christians from doing those things that aren’t found in scripture?

Catholic/Orthodox worship is founded on the imagery from the Book of Revelation and the sacrifice of the lamb.

Your POV is founded on Ockham’s Razor, not scripture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam’s_razor

Your quest is for a Christianity that never existed.

And I’m not going to try to prove it to you because you are asking me to prove a negative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens


783 posted on 11/28/2011 7:11:21 AM PST by rzman21
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To: metmom

You follow yourself, not Christ.


784 posted on 11/28/2011 7:12:19 AM PST by rzman21
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To: rzman21

In your dreams.


785 posted on 11/28/2011 7:26:41 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Your ego is your God.


786 posted on 11/28/2011 7:35:18 AM PST by rzman21
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To: RnMomof7; Religion Moderator; one Lord one faith one baptism
"The mass did not become an official doctrine until pronounced by the Lateran Council of 1215 under the direction of Pope Innocent III,"

Your posing is an obviously unattributed direct quote from the jesus-is-savior.com website complete with the dangling comma at the end. Compare it to the following I excerpted from that site.

"the mass did not become an official doctrine until pronounced by the Lateran Council of 1215 under the direction of Pope Innocent III,"

Your entire posting effort over the last couple of days is completely thematic with the content of the page it came from. It really is despicable.

787 posted on 11/28/2011 8:03:04 AM PST by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: MarkBsnr; rzman21

“Look at their words. God is a magic talisman, to be invoked in public. But everything is about them. My salvation, me my mine. “

That’s so true. Like rzman21, I was Lutheran and only a couple of years ago recognized the fact that I couldn’t deny the work of Christ throughout history the way Protestant and Protestant derived groups have to. A good many of the Protestant derived groups are actually teaching that “Thy Will” and “My Intellect” are the same things just like Luther substituted personal self-confidence for faith. Luther threw out the definition of Faith as the Scriptures and Church has always taught it and along with the redefinition threw out anything that was an outward sign of faith like sacraments or works. Luther discarded everything to do with faith as either useless or a sin and instead, he claimed that it was personal self-confidence that redeemed men, not Faith as described in Scriptures. Those anti-Catholics and others who declare that they can infallibly interpret Scripture to suit their own prejudices and predispositions could only do such things things if they were one with Christ and the Father, not redeemed individuals living by Faith. They enthrone their own intellect as a part of the Trinity and relegate the Holy Spirit to the role of a reference or footnote.

They have to deny the power of the Holy Spirit in order to personally claim that all the others throughout all of history back to Christ were wrong and not led by the Holy Spirit. Who could dismiss as, “opinions of men”, everything written by all the great figures in Church history except someone who denies the power of the Holy Spirit and the promise of Christ to protect His Church? Who could know the hearts of those who defended and even died for the Scriptures other than someone who believes they are superior to the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit does not sew the sorts of divisions that have grown out of the heresy Luther preached. If the heresies originating with Luther aren’t enough, many of those who slander the Church Christ founded eschew Luther as well and instead claim that the first time the whole truth was revealed to anyone was when someone in the US during the mid-1800s began making false prophecies. How people can even think that Christ as described in the Scriptures would sacrifice Himself for us and then abandon the vast majority of mankind until the sixteenth century or even until the mid-nineteenth century is beyond me. Christ left His Church specifically to teach us and to ordain shepherds for the sheep, sheep who are prone to wondering around aimlessly and falling into error and heresy when they have no shepherd to watch over them. And Christ did not ordain everyone who can open a Bible to be a shepherd, either. The sheep may like pretending they’re the shepherds, but by your fruits you will know them. The sheep outside of His Church are running in every direction ordaining queers, accepting child sacrifice, laughing at the command to be fruitful and multiply, and based on their own understanding, eschewing good works and sinning boldly exactly the way Luther, not Christ, commanded.

Regards


788 posted on 11/28/2011 8:34:42 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: rzman21
“Nowhere in scripture is wearing vestments forbidden for Christian clergy.”

And neither is selling pornography but by understanding the spirit of the Jesus’ commandments we can act with the principles and not have to have a law.

And that is what Jesus’ condemnation of Pharisees is at Matt. 23:1-12. A principle that was followed in the primitive Christian church.

As the the Catholic Encyclopedia comments on the development of priestly vestments:

“Four main periods may be distinguished in the development of the Christian priestly dress. The first embraces the era before Constantine. In that period the priestly dress did not yet differ from the secular costume in form and ornament. The dress of daily life was worn at the offices of the Church...”

Note well...that last sentence,

“The dress of daily life was worn at the offices of the Church.”

No buskins, burkas, albas or susplices, just everyday style of dress. All these are novelties, corruptions developed over time without foundation, corruptions that violated the tradition of the apostles and saints in the the early church.

Ockham’s razor? Do you even know who Ockham was? I'm not likely to follow a Franciscan monk.

And as Scripture makes clear there were no priests in the church of the apostle's day. That too is novelty, a corruption of the offices of service of overseers, elders and serving ministers.

So neither the office of priest nor any wearing of priestly vestments could be handed down from the apostles by command or tradition.

“Your quest is for a Christianity that never existed.”

Passing strange then I find it in Scripture, eh?

789 posted on 11/28/2011 8:36:36 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: rzman21; Iscool
Faith and reason come from the same place

For Catholics but NOT for Christians. Catholics marinate in the sea of deception and that's what comes forth - faith and reason come from the same place - right out of their philosophers' handbook.

Brainwashing - the tool of Catholicism.
790 posted on 11/28/2011 8:42:37 AM PST by presently no screen name (If it's not in God's Word, don't pass it off as truth! That's satan's job)
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To: MarkBsnr
Maybe you should do some research on the Pope's lifestyle before claiming that he lives in poverty. Here's just a small description of the kitchen in his apartment. Click here for full article

Loredana is the queen of the kitchen, which was renovated in 2005 with onyx countertops and gray shelves. She prepares meals on a big marble table for Benedict, who turns 84 on Saturday, and any invited guests. Pasta dishes are her specialty: including pasta with salmon and zucchini, or rigatoni with prosciutto. She keeps in touch with the Vatican supermarket and chooses which vegetables to get from the garden of Castel Gandolfo, a papal retreat in the hills south of Rome.

Onyx countertops and marble tables don't sound like he's living in poverty. I have formica countertops - can't afford onyx, granite or marble. Just which one of us is living in opulence?

This photo definitely shows the squalor that the Pope is living in..... /sarcasm


791 posted on 11/28/2011 8:47:03 AM PST by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: RnMomof7; Natural Law
RnMomof7, what is the source of the excerpt and the other quotes? Always include source information so the moderators can enforce copyright restrictions.

Natural Law, that excerpt "hit" over a thousand times in a Google search. Don't presume that because it exists on a banned site it was therefore copied from that site.

The banning of a site does not make everything the site quotes also banned material. For instance, the banned sites quote the Bible but the Bible isn't banned on the Religion Forum simply because they quoted it.

792 posted on 11/28/2011 8:48:24 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: rzman21; CynicalBear; Lera; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

My God, the God of the Bible, is more than capable of saving me and keeping me without the *help* from any bunch of men who want to control me.

Why is it that it seems that Catholics are incapable of believing that God can deal with us on an individual level to convict us, save us, cleanse us, seal us, teach us, lead us by His Holy Spirit which He promised to us to do those very things?

What’s the issue about having to submit to the authority of any men or group of men who claim to be speaking for God?

It’s as foolhardy to follow one man with his own interpretation of Scripture as a whole bunch of men with their own interpretation of Scripture.

Might doesn’t make right. And longevity doesn’t make right.


793 posted on 11/28/2011 8:53:04 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

794 posted on 11/28/2011 8:56:11 AM PST by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)
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To: Rashputin
The sheep outside of His Church are running in every direction ordaining queers, accepting child sacrifice, laughing at the command to be fruitful and multiply, and based on their own understanding, eschewing good works and sinning boldly exactly the way Luther, not Christ, commanded.

Just like the pedophile priests INSIDE "HIS CHURCH" have done! Only instead of reporting these criminals to appropriate authorities, the "Church" just keeps moving them around and paying off their victims.

795 posted on 11/28/2011 8:59:51 AM PST by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: Religion Moderator; RnMomof7
"Don't presume that because it exists on a banned site it was therefore copied from that site."

With the rampant plagiarism in recent anti-catholics posts and the thematic parallel between the content of them and the banned sites I am not prepared to give her or anyone else the benefit of the doubt that they do not themselves display with respect to the Catholic Church.

If it is perfectly OK for some to assume and post the worst about the Church it is equally OK for Church members to assume and post the worst about those that offer up that garbage. When they are repeatedly caught red handed it is even more fitting.

796 posted on 11/28/2011 9:21:06 AM PST by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: Natural Law; metmom; RnMomof7; smvoice; CynicalBear; Dr. Eckleberg
. . . It really is despicable.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, CLEARLY, the Vatican Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess cult DAFFYNITIONARY is in use again!

Actually, a better example of "despicable" is telling lies about Dr Eckleberg and then ASSAULTING HER AGAIN

INSTEAD

of apologizing for telling lies about her!

Incredible.

And THEN they think we should respect their bankrupt UNBiblical theology and cult.

Photobucket

.

And a better example of despicable than even that is their rebellion against this very clear Scripture:

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

797 posted on 11/28/2011 9:22:13 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom
>> Why is it that it seems that Catholics are incapable of believing that God can deal with us on an individual level to convict us, save us, cleanse us, seal us, teach us, lead us by His Holy Spirit which He promised to us to do those very things?

It’s an elaborate ruse that the RCC has built over the millennia. Subtle changes in word usage to change the meaning of scripture which they used to grasp control and maintain a network of influence. Once they began with the slightly corrupted words of Jesus and the Apostles the need for power and control was easily manipulated by Satan. Power corrupts and complete power corrupts completely. History has shown that the masses long for leadership and once personal responsibility is given over to those who use the lies of Satan scripture tells us “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

Those who refuse to heed Paul’s exhortation to “search the scriptures daily to see if these things are true” will fall for the teachings of those false leaders. Once they have been convinced that scripture is not sufficient most any teaching of those false teachers will be taken as truth.

798 posted on 11/28/2011 9:23:46 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom; rzman21

Yes, God is a personal God. They don’t know HIM and are jealous we do - that’s why we get those dumber than dumb responses.


799 posted on 11/28/2011 9:29:35 AM PST by presently no screen name (If it's not in God's Word, don't pass it off as truth! That's satan's job)
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To: Natural Law; RnMomof7; smvoice
Matthew 6:14-15 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 11 1Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples." 2And he said to them, "When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread, 4and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.

Matthew 18:21-22 21Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

Nobody who claims to be a Christian has the permission or privilege, or luxury, to not forgive, including priests.

800 posted on 11/28/2011 9:30:31 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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