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Russians Flock to See Virgin Mary Relic
MSNBC ^ | 11/23/11 | Mansur Mirovalev

Posted on 11/25/2011 6:55:10 AM PST by marshmallow

Tens of thousands wait for hours in freezing temperatures to kiss belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother

MOSCOW — Braving freezing cold temperatures and ice-covered sidewalks, tens of thousands of Russians stood in line Wednesday to see and kiss a newly arrived relic of the Virgin Mary in Russia's largest Orthodox cathedral.

The Virgin Mary's Cincture, a belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother, was brought to Russia last month from Mount Athos, a monastic community in Greece.

Kissing the relic, which is encased in an ornamental box, is believed to help barren women conceive and heal other ailments.

The line of people, mostly women, waiting to enter the golden-domed Christ the Savior Cathedral stretched for 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) along the Moscow River despite temperatures that dropped to below minus 5 Celsius (23 Fahrenheit).

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: christianity; moscow; religion; russia
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To: RobbyS
How many of the Bill Graham crusade people have lived the lives they promised?

I don't know because the Billy Graham stuff is not all one denomination but rather many churches and denominations working together.

This event is basically Catholic. The difference in holiness within the local Catholic churches ought to be easier to document.

651 posted on 11/28/2011 8:17:10 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Running On Empty

Thank you for the encouragement.

I actually learn a lot from posting here and it is a blessing to be able to so quickly look things up and read about the theology behind so many differing beliefs.

I always pray for guidance before I write. If others learn from it, then it is worth the time spent.

I am grateful for all here, especially my fellow Catholic FReepers. It truly is a labor of love for us.


652 posted on 11/28/2011 8:27:50 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette

He liked to use the word “mystery” because the “mysteries” were given to him to give to us by direct revelations of the risen Christ. He could not be clearer in what he meant. The only way to miss it is because a person chooses NOT to see it.


653 posted on 11/28/2011 8:30:29 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

Yes, the irony is they eschew the infallibility of the Church while certain of their own.

It has ever been thus and will ever be so.

We do what we can.


654 posted on 11/28/2011 8:33:03 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette

>>>>>Why is it that Catholics are not allowed to disagree with each other?

Because that would show the untruth of the harpies’ insistance that we all must think alike or the priests will send us to hell.


655 posted on 11/28/2011 8:37:29 PM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: CynicalBear

****Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.****

You will have to explain your understanding of that passage more fully because nowhere in it do I see where Jesus says that Scripture is the key to the kingdom.

****2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.*****

Excommunication from the Church. Which again does not say that the Scriptures are the keys to the kingdom.

****The Apostles, not just Peter, were given the “keys of knowledge” which would be what people needed to be saved.****

Scripture says they were given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, not knowledge. And no one has said that Peter served as a dictator, he was the leader as the rock, not the tyrant.

I would like you to present from Scripture where the key of knowledge is equated to the keys to the kingdom and where it is said that Scripture is the key to the kingdom.

Otherwise, what you have done is read into what you have posted an implicit understanding of what is not explicit in Scripture.


656 posted on 11/28/2011 8:44:39 PM PST by Jvette
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To: smvoice

I do not disagree that Paul did indeed have the “mystery” revealed to him by Jesus. What I disagree with is that Paul is the only one to have received this revelation.

The revelation and the gospel that Paul received was the same as that of the others. Paul emphasizes that he received them straight from the risen Christ, not because he was given a different revelation, but because he had to prove that he was given the same revelation as the others. It was about the authenticity of himself as a preacher of the good news.

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, WE declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for OUR glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Did Paul have a mouse in his pocket?

Paul taught in accordance with Peter and the others, he sought their approval and imprimatur.


657 posted on 11/28/2011 9:02:16 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
That is simply not true. The gospel that was given to Paul is explained in Gal.1:11. "For I certify you, brethren, that THE GOSPEL THAT WAS PREACHED OF ME is NOT AFTER MAN. For I NEITHER RECEIVED IT OF MAN, neither was I TAUGHT IT, but by the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST."

In Gal. 2:2-9 we read that when Paul went up to the leaders at Jerusalem to communicate to them "THAT GOSPEL which I preach among the Gentiles, (v.2), they "saw" (V. 7), and "perceived" (v.9) that God had indeed entrusted a new revelation to him, and solemnly, publicly, officially, gave him "the right hand of fellowship" (v.9), acknowledging him as God's new apostle to the nations and agreeing to confine their own ministry henceforth to Israel.

"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived THE GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME..."(v.9). They didn't teach him anything. He taught them the gospel he was preaching: the gospel of the grace of God.

Once again, it PLAINLY says what it says.

658 posted on 11/28/2011 9:32:59 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: CynicalBear
We as Christians are Priests unto God which means access to Heaven and people of heaven. What here in Zechariah is pointing about the time of Christ or Priests of Christ era. That is now and since Christ's age from the beginning.

Here is the main passage I believe Christ showed me in prayer years ago on that it is proper and not a fluke. I at one time did not believe it either but through prayer and travail the Good Lord directed me to these scripture verses. Then after these verses are catholic scripture answers from a site(Scripture Catholic).

Zechariah Chapter 3

7 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou also shalt judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee a place of access among these that stand by.

Parallel

RSV 7: "Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my charge, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here.

NRSV 7 `Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here.

Douay 7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and Beep my charge, thou also shalt judge my house, and shalt keep my courts, and I will give thee some of them that are now present here to walk with thee.

NAB 7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you walk in my ways and heed my charge, you shall judge my house and keep my courts, and I will give you access among these standing here.

KJV 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

WEB 7 "Thus says Yahweh of Armies: 'If you will walk in my ways, and if you will keep my charge, then you also shall judge my house, and shall also keep my courts, and I will give you a place of access among these who stand by.

ESV 7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my charge, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here.

NASB 7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here. The Branch

NIV 7 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: `If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.

YOUNG 7 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts: If in My ways thou dost walk, And if My charge thou dost keep, Then also thou dost judge My house, And also thou dost keep My courts, And I have given to thee conductors among these standing by.

NOTICE THIS ONE IS YOUNG"S LITERAL TRANSLATION-One of the closet to the original language translation. I believe Conductors includes prayers in the house of the Lord. The access is to others in heaven. Of course they way God sees it.

Greek 7: tade <3592> {THUS} legei <3004> {SAYS} kurioV <5rain> pantokratwr <3841> {ALMIGHTY} ean <1437> {IF} en <1722> {IN} taiV <3588> {THE} odoiV <3598> {WAYS} mou <1473> {MY} poreuh <4198> {DO YOU GO} kai <2532> {AND} ean <1437> {IF} ta <3588> {THE} prostagmata <4366> {ORDERS} mou <1473> {MY} fulaxhV <5442> {YOU SHOULD GUARD} kai <2532> {AND} su <1473> {ARE YOU} diakrineiV <1252> {SHALL LITIGATE} ton <3588> {THE} oikon <3624> {HOUSE} mou <1473> {MY} kai <2532> {AND} ean <1437> {IF} diafulaxhV kai <2532> {AND} ge <1065> {INDEED} thn <3588> {THE} aulhn <833> {A COURTYARD} mou <1473> {MY} kai <2532> {AND} dwsw <1325> {I WILL GIVE} soi <1473> {TO YOU} anastrefomenouV <390> {ONES PACING} en <1722> {IN} mesw <3319> {THE MIDST} twn <3588> {OF THE} esthkotwn <2476> {STANDING} toutwn <3778> {THESE}

Vulgate 7 haec dicit Dominus exercituum si in viis meis ambulaveris et custodiam meam custodieris tu quoque iudicabis domum meam et custodies atria mea et dabo tibi ambulantes de his qui nunc hic adsistunt

ASV 7 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou also shalt judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee a place of access among these that stand by.

Darby 7Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts; and I will give thee a place to walk among these that stand by.

NKJV 7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'If you will walk in My ways, And if you will keep My command, Then you shall also judge My house, And likewise have charge of My courts; I will give you places to walk Among these who stand here.

Other Related Passages

Deuteronomy 17 9: and coming to the Levitical priests, and to the judge who is in office in those days, you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision.

Deuteronomy 17 12: The man who acts presumptuously, by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the LORD your God, or the judge, that man shall die; so you shall purge the evil from Israel.

1 Kings 3 14: And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days."

Isaiah 62 9: but those who garner it shall eat it and praise the LORD, and those who gather it shall drink it in the courts of my sanctuary."

Scripture

I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

659 posted on 11/28/2011 9:42:57 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: metmom

This is Russian, btw. Hit on the Orthodox/Eastern rites. But you are avoiding the point, which is the efficacy of the means. No one believes in honoring Mary is not a believer in Jesus, unless he/she is a Muslim. Presumably, no one who answers Graham call is not a believer. The The evangelist can only cast the seeds. The ground it lands on is beyond his country. And we believe this is the role that Marty has been playing, which is a messenger to an unbelieving world. Rather, Our Lord has chosen to send a messenger who is taken to be Mary, and her message is all, at bottom, Repent. I am thinking of the apparition at LaSalette, now, where childen encounter a weaping woman, who cries for our sakes and warns the children of dire events soon to come, that the hand of her son is about to strike. I am thinking now,also of the image of the Last Judgement in the Sistine Chapel. There we see no gentle and kind shepard, but the Christ of the Apocalypse, and his role as the ruler of the world.


660 posted on 11/28/2011 9:53:51 PM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
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To: FormerLib

THe only YOPIS in actions where the ones pushing the idol worship


661 posted on 11/28/2011 10:05:25 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera

If you are accusing other Christians of “worshiping idols”, you are bearing false witness against your brothers.

Worry about your own soul instead of your neighbor, whom you see as steeped in vice.


662 posted on 11/29/2011 4:52:30 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Jvette; smvoice; metmom; boatbums; RnMomof7; caww
The space allotted hear doesn’t allow for in depth study but if you truly want to understand the information is available. I’ll give you some pointers and you can take it from there.

Start with knowledge opens doors right? With the right knowledge you can become a lawyer or whatever. Knowledge will help you get into places while lack of knowledge will lock you out. The keys to that knowledge are books, writings and teaching.

In Old Testament times when the Jews made a mad a doctor of the law he received the key to the closet in the temple where they kept the sacred books and the tablets to write on. Those books contained the laws of the Jews. Thus the reference in Luke.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

They were keeping the information that God had commanded away from the people and were only teaching the portions of the law they found benefited the elite and helped them maintain superiority over the people. A reference to that can be found in Matthew 23 when Jesus accused them of doing the external things but not teaching the spiritual truths.

The binding and loosing also comes from Jewish customs. The priests could declare a person unfit for fellowship with the people. If the person was not following the laws of God they could be “bound” or kept out of the gatherings. They also considered that what they “bound” on earth was also “bound” in heaven because they were the keepers of the law that God had given them. That’s the context of the verse in 2 Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians: 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Christ had given all the information or “knowledge” for New Testament believers to the Apostles thus the statement in Matthew.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The Apostles had been taught the New Testament teachings of grace and forgiveness that gave the people life eternal in heaven. That information was considered the “key” to heaven. The Apostles had been given that “key” and just like the Old Testament Jewish “lawyer” they were empowered to teach those and could declare someone who didn’t believe or taught falsely “bound” and not fit for fellowship with believers. That person would also be considered “bound” in heaven also.

663 posted on 11/29/2011 6:52:35 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: FormerLib

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

My brothers have the Spirit , they know not to bow down to idols.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


664 posted on 11/29/2011 7:00:11 AM PST by Lera
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To: johngrace
>> We as Christians are Priests unto God which means access to Heaven and people of heaven.<<

We do NOT have access to the “people of heaven”. We have access to the “Throne of God” but communication with those no longer living on this earth has always been forbidden. Witness that even the Apostles were not allowed to speak to Moses and Elijah who appeared with Jesus.

>> and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here.<<

The right of access among those, the same access as they have, you will be one of those. Not access “to” those.

>> Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.<<

That is totally injecting a meaning that is not in Romans 8.

Romans 8:35-39 simply says that nothing will separated us from the love of Christ. Nothing about communicating with those who have left this earth.

>> Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.<<

You did notice that Jesus was “transformed” and that the disciples were not allowed to speak with them right?

Your entire post that you propose as proof is total conjecture. Yes those who have gone on to heaven are “alive” but we are not instructed to communicate with them in any way shape or form. In fact, the only time contact with departed souls is talked about in scripture it is condemned.

665 posted on 11/29/2011 7:26:02 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: smvoice

Gal 1:20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

Paul was a persecutor of Christ through the persecution of His followers. That he was now a convert created suspicion among those to whom he was preaching. There were those who came among them as spies to turn them over to the authorities.

It was important that he be authenticated as having the same commission and message as that of Peter and the others since they had walked with Jesus and Paul had not.

Paul had to show that what he preached was from Jesus and not from Peter and the others. Apostolic imprimatur was crucial to the reception of Paul as well as the message.

As for the revelation he went to Jerusalem to share, it was concerning circumcision of Gentile converts.

Gal 2:4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Paul had begun teaching that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised but others were disputing that saying the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. Paul goes to Jerusalem to confirm that what he was teaching was true.

Gal 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Accepting that Jesus had revealed this to Paul, Peter pronounces that it would be a burden to require circumcision for the Gentiles. Paul testifies to the works God has done among the Gentiles. Upon hearing what Peter had to say and hearing the testimony of Paul and Barnabas, James agrees also and calls for a letter to be written and read in Antioch.

The letter says in it:Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Paul receives from the others verification of what he is teaching. Now, in Galatians when Paul is writing of this event and the council, he says that he did not need to have God’s approval, but he needed that of “those held in high esteem”, those whose opinion was acceptable and binding on the followers of the Way.

6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a] just as Peter had been to the circumcised.[b] 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c] and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

No where here does Paul say that he has a different gospel from that of Peter and the others. He only says that they, Cephas and John recognized that he had received the grace to preach to the Gentiles.

When I read this I see the Church at work exactly as it works now. Glory be to God.


666 posted on 11/29/2011 8:34:57 AM PST by Jvette
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To: Lera
Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

What Catholics as a whole seem to miss is that these verses don't say not to worship them although that is what is implied, but we are not to bow down to images.

The first thing Catholics do is deny that they worship the images, but if you watch, in any Catholic church, you DO see people bowing down before them, like when they're lighting candles to them representing the prayers they are praying to them.

667 posted on 11/29/2011 8:50:14 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Jvette
Acts 9:15: "Go thy (Ananias) way; for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

Why wouldn't Christ just send Paul to the 12 for instruction? Why wouldn't Christ give Peter the information that he would teach Paul? As a matter of fact, why wasn't Paul just made the 12th Disciple, instead of Matthias?

Acts 9:26: "And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples; bu they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple." Why the fear? Why didn't Christ speak to Peter the way he spoke to Paul and tell Peter that Paul was a chosen vessel unto Him? THe Disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, what they bound on earth was bound in heaven, what they loosed on earth was loosed in heaven. They would have had confirmation of Paul's revelations from the risen Christ, had Christ chosen to reveal it to them. Yet we read:

"And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; AND SAW HIM SAYING UNTO ME, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will NOT RECEIVE THY TESTIMONY CONCERNING ME". Acts 22:17,18.

This was Paul's first return to Jerusalem after his conversion. The Lord appeared to Paul again, commanding him to depart from Jerusalem because his testimony to Israel would now be futile. What had made his testimony to Israel futile? Something changed. Peter and the 11 were told to stay REMAIN IN JERUSALEM. Paul was told to quickly depart Jerusalem. Hmmmm....Obviously THEY were performing something HE wasn't part of...and vise-versa.

668 posted on 11/29/2011 9:03:47 AM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: CynicalBear
I read my Bible in Holy Spirit Deep. It's pray. I know from he who is within us. I can't help it if you read your Bible Holy Spirit light. LOL.

Seriously in deep pray God shows there is nothing wrong. The more I pray while reading or not God holds up a scripture in my minds eye at times. That is the main scripture verses shown by The Holy Spirit. This I know my friend without a doubt.

ALSO: You use the Word Transformed. Just remember those Apostles were transformed After The Day of Pentecost in the book of Acts.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

"You did notice that Jesus was “transformed” and that the disciples were not allowed to speak with them right?"

Yes! This event was before Pentecost. So the Apostles were transformed with THe Holy Spirit on Pentecost day.

My Mother was a devout Catholic Christian I left the Church for Indy Churches at the time. I understand your side of the argument I use to believe it too. But through the Holy Spirit. And taking my Mother to Mass the Holy Spirit showed the Bible verses for each step in the Mass. Praying is asking for pray not summoning up spirits like Occultic practices. I know it without a doubt. Praise Jesus to you!

Freeper Regards!

669 posted on 11/29/2011 11:03:19 AM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: johngrace

“I know from He who is within us.” Correction HE in capital letter.


670 posted on 11/29/2011 11:07:44 AM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: Lera

Exodus 20:16 “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”


671 posted on 11/29/2011 11:35:40 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: johngrace
I should have used the word transfigured perhaps.

>>Just remember those Apostles were transformed After The Day of Pentecost in the book of Acts.<<

No they were not. They were filled with the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus before He ascended. He promised them the “comforter” would come and that is what happened. In no way were they transfigured as Jesus was. Making stuff up as the RCC does will always fall in light of the true scriptures.

>>Yes! This event was before Pentecost. So the Apostles were transformed with THe Holy Spirit on Pentecost day.<<

Preposterous! Lying about what scripture says is dangerous and a clear indication that the spirit you claim to be listening to is absolutely not the Holy Spirit sent to the Apostles.

672 posted on 11/29/2011 12:15:58 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Nonsense! Do I sense paranoia ? If you know Christ in deep prayer. You know him. You can even post or say 1john4 . That Christ only as divinity came in the flesh as a human. You have him. He does not care if your Protestant or Catholic if you believe 1John 4 you have him. I personally have met occultic people who have claim that they are Christian. I challenged them to declare Christ came in the Flesh. You know what they could not say it. You could almost see something holding them back.

Do not accuse me of lying! Your theology is a bit off. I know my Savoir ! I know you mean well but do some real prayering then you will know.

673 posted on 11/29/2011 2:57:56 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: FormerLib
Exodus 20:16 “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

That's correct you should not bear false witness against a neighbor .

and

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.


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674 posted on 11/29/2011 3:59:02 PM PST by Lera
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To: metmom
Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.


What Catholics as a whole seem to miss is that these verses don't say not to worship them although that is what is implied, but we are not to bow down to images. The first thing Catholics do is deny that they worship the images, but if you watch, in any Catholic church, you DO see people bowing down before them, like when they're lighting candles to them representing the prayers they are praying to them.


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675 posted on 11/29/2011 5:46:30 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera

If someone tells you that a fellow Christian worships idols, they are lying to you. Any one who repeats that lie, participates in it.

And that makes Satan very happy.


676 posted on 11/29/2011 6:37:27 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: FormerLib

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Do you see where it says not to set up any image ?
See the part right next to it about bowing down ?
I think it makes Satan very happy when people do these things because by doing them they are not making our CREATOR happy since he tells us not to do it over and over again in his WORD.
Why are you trying to play it off as if the people who do this are the victim ? You know Cain tried to play the victim after he killed his brother too.

Bowing down is bowing down !


677 posted on 11/29/2011 7:32:45 PM PST by Lera
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To: FormerLib; Lera

The commands in Scripture concerning idols are to not bow down to them. It doesn’t say to not worship them. So your contention about worship is meaningless because it doesn’t address the Scripture references.

Misquoting Scripture is one of Satan’s favorite tactics.


678 posted on 11/29/2011 7:40:35 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Lera
How do you explain the angels on the ARK of the Covenant. If what you say is an absolute "no" on any statue. Where is God's integrity to be pure with his own law. A Holy God. He ordered Moses to make these. Obviously there is a balance somewhere. Maybe like the pagans do. Frogs. oxen. Birds.

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679 posted on 11/29/2011 7:46:31 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: Lera

. Images and Statues

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.


680 posted on 11/29/2011 7:55:19 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: Lera

. Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

Deut. 5:9 - God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 24:52 - Abraham’s servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God’s Holy Temple.

Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.

2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.


681 posted on 11/29/2011 7:57:39 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: Lera
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2 Chronicles 29:29 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 29And at the completion of the offering up bowed have the king and all those found with him, and do obeisance. << < = = > >>

682 posted on 11/29/2011 8:09:26 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: johngrace
The king may have bowed and worshiped but he wasn't bowing in front of a statue like the picture of the pope bowing in front of the statue of Mary.


You do realize that the Ark of the Covenant was not kept out in the open for people to see don't you ? That picture is very misleading considering it was kept behind a curtain and only one person could go into the room in which it was kept - the HIGH PRIEST , the king was not in the room with the arc. There is no way 2 people would be bowing in front of it .... hmmm could reasons like this be one of the reasons we are not to make images so we don't mislead ?

What did the Ark contain ? The tablets containing the law written by the finger of God . What was sprinkled ? Blood . The blood covered the sins of the people . Why am I telling you this ? Because I know to many of your church try to say Mary is the Ark .

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

(BTW the things I highlighted in bold have a meaning as well in the Temple ... you might searching for their meanings )
683 posted on 11/29/2011 9:30:45 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera
I posted the scripture that has people bowing not worship but honor. Here there are again. Go argue with these verses which are in the Holy Bible. God sees the man's true heart not you simplistic legalistic obsoletisms or declarations.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration. 1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael. Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God’s Holy Temple.

Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

684 posted on 11/29/2011 9:59:46 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: johngrace

I know where God gives direct instructions for how to build the Ark of the Covenant . Show me where he says to build statues of Mary or others and tells you to bow down to them ?


685 posted on 11/29/2011 10:05:02 PM PST by Lera
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To: johngrace
I don't have time tonight to sit and pick each one of these apart so I will choose the first one you list . Who do you think that was that Joshua bowed down to?
I'll give you a little hint it was no mere angel ... Steven also talks about it in Acts 7 just before they stone him.



Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.


Here is another clue with the shoe ... Moses was told the same thing while standing in front of a burning bush.
686 posted on 11/29/2011 10:13:24 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera
John 16:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

The Holy Spirit Guides us. If you know the Holy Spirit you can know. Maybe like things to come later in time. The Bible is ink on Paper. It is a map that points to God.Then you can know God then you can know whats acceptable.

So We can honor/venerate fallen soldiers with a statue in the town square but we can't honor/venerate Mary?

687 posted on 11/29/2011 10:22:19 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: Lera
Let me ask you a question. When God ordered Moses to make the statues on the ark.

Why was it acceptable? Is it because God can do anything and break his own law. Or for some strange reason it is acceptable and God has integrity. But how is it acceptable. If that is true how can some statues be acceptable and others are not accepted?

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688 posted on 11/29/2011 10:30:13 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: johngrace; Lera

*do not bow down before images* means *do not bow down before images*.

There’s just not much way of getting around it.

Bowing down before an image is a direct violation of specific and clear commands of God.


689 posted on 11/30/2011 7:23:05 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice

Again, and again, and again....

Paul did not receive a different gospel. Paul was in danger, the Jewish converts did not accept him because they were AFRAID of him. He had been persecuting them, he was known for it, he was there when St. Stephen was martyred.

Acts 9:26: “And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples; bu they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.”

That is why Jesus told him they would never accept PAUL’s TESTIMONY because of what he had wrought on the new Christian communities.

The other Apostles did accept Paul and had received revelation that he was a disciple. In all the NT, is there a place where any of the others speak against him? NO, they knew who he was.

He could not go to them to learn from them because they were all suspicious and wary of him. He had to have the type of conversion he had. As I have explained to you before.

And Jesus only told the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came upon them. Is it your assertion that only Paul ever left Jerusalem and preached to the Gentiles?


690 posted on 11/30/2011 7:49:36 AM PST by Jvette
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To: metmom

If that is true then God violated his own law. You can’t wiggle that statement. Which we know did not happen. How do explain that people bowed down before the statues of the angels on the ark and they got away with it from God. Something does not make sense here with that statement.


691 posted on 11/30/2011 12:03:10 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: johngrace

There’s a difference between bowing down before the ark which had angels on it and bowing down TO the angels on the ark.

Besides, the statutes that we’ve seen pictures of people bowing down to are not with the ark, but are stand alone’s.

Anyone who bows down before a statue TO it to pray TO it, is disobeying God.

The picture of the pope bowing before a statue of Mary is direct disobedience of the clear commands of God.

Catholics bowing in prayer and lighting candles to statues in churches are disobeying God.

There’s just not much way to rationalize your way out of it.


692 posted on 11/30/2011 12:53:50 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Its all whats inside the person while they are doing it. Honoring or worship. There are verses were it says like it is a definite “no” then God or someone from God does something acceptable. I believe he means like the pagans do otherwise how could he make statues on the ark. Obviously there is a difference. Number one God can not do anything against his character if he did he is not Holy. By his actions we see what your statement is trying to declare is not lock stock and absolute. Thats all.


693 posted on 11/30/2011 1:23:44 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: metmom

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues


694 posted on 11/30/2011 1:29:13 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: johngrace; Lera; CynicalBear; smvoice; boatbums; Quix; HossB86

***sigh***

The verses in Scripture say *bow down to*. They don’t say *do not worship* images. They say *bow down TO*

I have no doubt that that implies worship as well, however, telling me that Catholic don’t *worship* images doesn’t address the fact that they *bow down to* them, before them, whatever, in direct violation of the commands of God.

If God says not to bow down before or to an image, there’s not much getting around what people do with their bodies when in front of these images, no matter what they claim their hearts are doing.


695 posted on 11/30/2011 4:47:00 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; Lera

The lie you are embracing is that icons are idols.

Do either of you believe you are doing good by these falsehoods?

You aren’t, you know. You are attacking other Christians, nothing more.

Don’t deceive yourselves.


696 posted on 11/30/2011 4:56:10 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: FormerLib; Lera
I don't care what Catholics wish to call them. That which we call a rose by any other name.

It doesn't say *icons* or whatever.

It says *IMAGES*.

It's disingenuous to try to claim not sinning merely on the basis of relabeling something or changing definitions.

GOD says to not *BOW DOWN TO* CARVED IMAGES or GRAVEN IMAGES.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It says what it says. If you want to try to weasel out of it, it's your prerogative but don't expect us to believe any of your rationalizations.

697 posted on 11/30/2011 5:21:37 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: FormerLib

The serpent in the garden asked if God really did say too

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.


698 posted on 11/30/2011 5:40:59 PM PST by Lera
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To: johngrace; metmom
John,

I'm a bit shocked at that post of yours.

That kind of cheap rationalization is beneath you, imho.

God insituted the Ark and the behaviors around it.

God instituted the absolutely crucial !COMMAND! to avoid bowing down to any other man made object (with the one exception of the serpent on the staff for healing--which GOD HAD LATER DESTROYED BECAUSE OF IDOLATRY).

Both those facts merely display God's sovereignty.

Neither the Ark nor the brass serpent is the least bit of excuse in God's eyes or any other rational student of the Bible who is exercising consistent logic and integrity about what they are reading.

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall NOT make for yourself
a carved image,
or any likeness
of anything
that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

STILL STANDS FULLY IN FORCE.

IF you think God has changed HIS jealous perspectives on such matters, then I have to wonder if we really know the same God Almighty of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

699 posted on 11/30/2011 5:47:35 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: FormerLib
Soooooooooooo

It's your perspective that God is lying in this passage?

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall NOT make for yourself
a carved image,
or any likeness
of anything
that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

700 posted on 11/30/2011 5:49:06 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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