Posted on 11/25/2011 6:55:10 AM PST by marshmallow
Tens of thousands wait for hours in freezing temperatures to kiss belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother
MOSCOW — Braving freezing cold temperatures and ice-covered sidewalks, tens of thousands of Russians stood in line Wednesday to see and kiss a newly arrived relic of the Virgin Mary in Russia's largest Orthodox cathedral.
The Virgin Mary's Cincture, a belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother, was brought to Russia last month from Mount Athos, a monastic community in Greece.
Kissing the relic, which is encased in an ornamental box, is believed to help barren women conceive and heal other ailments.
The line of people, mostly women, waiting to enter the golden-domed Christ the Savior Cathedral stretched for 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) along the Moscow River despite temperatures that dropped to below minus 5 Celsius (23 Fahrenheit).
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
I was reposing my response to 22. Any answer? Is it JW? Or maybe SDA?
Maybe you have the wrong teacher?
I Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
If we are cleansed by the blood of Christ and we appear before the throne of God as pure what will we be judged for?
Cat got your tongue? Are you unwilling to disclose what odd cult teaches the things you post?
About the latter, I have asked before, but never received anything close to an answer :
How can it be that the Holy Spirit directs two believers to mutually exclusive conclusions on what Scripture means? One example, among many - can a "born again" believer fall away and lose his salvation? Some sola religions say yes; some say no.
That is confusion, of which God is not the Author.
Ok, but only if you don’t tell anyone. K? It’s all from scripture. You know, those 66 books we call the Bible.
Catholics like those third grade picture books don’t they?
How can it be that the Holy Spirit directs two believers to mutually exclusive conclusions on what Scripture means? One example, among many - can a "born again" believer fall away and lose his salvation? Some sola religions say yes; some say no.Maybe, just maybe, CynicalBear in his careful and alone, solo study of whatever odd translation of Holy Writ he believes to be the one and only, TRUE version of tthe Word of God can answer that time tested question. Maybe.
That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.
CynicalBear wrote:
“That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.”
Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.
Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear:
What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?
What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?
What particular translation of the Bible must we study?
What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?
What makes you certain you are right?
Salvation is granted either by faith OR works. Deserved OR undeserved. Merited OR unmerited. NOT both, NOT and, one or the other. God became man so that man can be redeemed. We cannot pay the penalty for even one sin of our own because the price, the wages, of sin is death - and it's not a physical death but eternal separation from God. But he loved us so much that he made a way for us. Jesus Christ took upon himself the sins of the world - past, present and future - and paid the penalty in our place. When we receive him as our Savior, believe in him, we are made righteous, justified, sanctified and purified. When God looks at us he sees the righteousness of Christ because we are found in him, not having a righteousness of our own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. Phillipians 3:9
So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin, is the false one and is teaching an accursed gospel.
Why make this thread about another poster? Either stick to the subject or refrain from sarcastic name calling - it doesn’t help your cause.
Do you have a hall monitor badge?
Why do you object to me asking another poster who claims to be CERTAIN of the TRUTH questions?
So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin...So you can freely sin in your denomination? Once saved, always saved?
“So I’m CERTAIN they would have included it in their creeds.”
You are? Really? So what is the last Council you consider dogmatic? If any?
What good is a creed if a fundamental belief, crucial to one's salvation, is MISSING? NOT MENTIONED? SILENT ON THE SUBJECT? Hmmmmmm....creeds are crucial to "Christianity" WHY, again?
That is not worshiping Christ
By kissing a belt that may or MAY NOT BE from Mary??? I think it lines up more with superstition
Of course, Mary is an example to us of unflinching faith and, of course, we should honor her for her place as the mother of our Savior. We love her as a sister in the Lord and rejoice that one day we will meet her in Heaven. She is honored and respected without the mistake of placing her between us and Jesus. We will all be equal to each other in Heaven and we will give all glory and praise to him. There will BE no mother, father, husband or wife, but only brothers and sisters together in Christ. Only Jesus is our mediator with the Father and because of HIM we have received grace, mercy and forgiveness.
I think some people here confuse age or numbers or might to make something right, but God is the source for all truth and the Bible is his infallible authority gift to us his children. We should know by now that fallible men are not worthy of our unquestioning trust. That is why God gave us the Scriptures as well as the indwelling Holy Spirit who will lead us into all truth.
lets look at that..1st we would have EXPERTS validate the authenticity of the object..2nd no one would kiss them expecting to get as little less burn time by that ...Odds are that this belt is not from mary and like most Rc "relics" is little more than a scam
Why do you start with a typical Catholic error?
1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>> What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?<<
Jeremiah 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
Job 15:8 Have you heard the council of God? and do you limit wisdom to yourself?
>> What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?<<
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
>>What particular translation of the Bible must we study?<<
The one with 66 books along with a Greek Hebrew lexicon.
>>What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?<<
The one led by Jesus Christ whose members may be may find themselves in any one of a myriad of churches or no organized church at all.
The last Council that I consider dogmatic is the first Council. At Jerusalem. Acts 15. Where James, the brother of Jesus, was president. I’m not aware of any more Christian Councils in the Bible after that one.
Oh sure, you had to bring up the fact that Jesus had a brother and Mary had other children didn’t you. :-)
Ignoring the Catholic bash (my question was to sola believers...what I hear you saying is that if two such believers come to different conclusions (which they do on many important and vital matters) then one of them is simply not listening to the Holy Spirit. Please confirm that is what you are saying.
lol! You don’t think it was too much TRUTH overload, do you?..:)
They are more to be pitied than censured.
So according to you Russian Orthodoxy is not a Christian church?
Haven't you heard? the Moderator wouldn't need to have deputies if we do a good enough job moderating ourselves. It was a friendly reminder. As far as objecting to asking another poster questions of which he feels certain is the truth, I have no problems at all with that, in fact, CB was doing just that. If that was what you were really doing, then I wonder why there was a need to couch your questions with:
Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.
Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear
Your other questions were valid AND asked appropriately and, I would hope, asked in a spirit of respect. Any other way doesn't deserve an answer.
There is only one “vital matter”.
“believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved – and your house”.
What other "vital matter" could you possibly be talking about?
CynicalBear wrote:
“That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.”
Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.
Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear:
What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?
What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?
What particular translation of the Bible must we study?
What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?
What makes you certain you are right?
Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you believe that Jesus was a human? Have you heard of the heresies that arose that denied this human nature?
How can one ignore over 1500 years of Christianity and have the conceit to believe that that whole time period was darkness and error?
As has so often been pointed out on so many threads, sola believers need to come to terms that they ignore the foundation that was laid by Christ for the building of His Church and have laid a different one.
I speak these words as one who did exactly that. It is what I was raised in. Came a time that I was blessed to lay aside my bigotry, admit to my ignorance and begin to look at the passages that I had NOT underlined in my Bible. And to figure out where my Bible actually came from.
What about the passage that says "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved? So is it believe only or believe AND be baptized. I read both in my Bible?
Galatians 2:16-21
Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Galatians 5:13-26
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
>>>>>So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin, is the false one and is teaching an accursed gospel.
Alternately, that viewpoint is completely false.
If we must be baptized to be saved it would be works based. Salvation is not based on what we do but on what Christ did. Scripture over and over again shows that we do not perform works to be saved, but that we will perform works if we are saved. Baptism is not the cause of being saved but a response to being saved. The question then is this If you are saved, and you know what baptism means and that it was commanded by Christ, why would you not be baptized?
A person does not become baptized to be saved, but a person is saved and is therefore baptized.
Even two of the early Christian writers indicate that the verses you refer to are not actually found in the early manuscripts. Eusebius (Quaestiones ad Marinum I) says that they are not in "accurate" copies of Mark and are missing from "almost all" manuscripts; Jerome (Epistle CXX.3, ad Hedibiam) testifies that almost all Greek manuscripts of his time lack vss. 9-20.
So even the Catholic Church would have to admit that the verses of Mark 16:9-20 should not be used for doctrine.
Especially stay away from Ignatius of Antioch. That "medicine of immprtality" talk and the instructions regarding the Bishops might rock our world as it did mine.
And vice versa. Say, how deep DOES the rabbit hole go?
You have used excerpts of this prayer several times. The spin placed on it is incorrect. There is nothing in that prayer that supplants or replaces God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
It is a poetic prayer, an ode(a la the psalms), regarding the blessings Mary has received from God. It was written on the occasion of the declaration of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. It is not a prayer that is said in Mass, nor one that Catholics are bound to pray.
It says nothing of Mary being the source of our salvation. Rather she is the first recipient of Salvation and knew our Lord more intimately than any human from the moment of His conception to His death and then His ascension.
It is an expression of the joy and love Catholics have for the Mother of Our Savior, our mother, given to us from the cross as He suffered and died for our sins.
“When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’. Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’” (Jn 19:26-27).
It seems that in the joylessness that is protestantism, it is inconceivable to acknowledge that there is no love, no praise and no honor that man can give Mary greater than that bestowed on her by God when He chose her to bear His Son to the world.
Gee! I do not think hanging on the cross made it easy to be baptised. He had what was called baptism of desire. Christ then recognized his humble request.
You are fully saved when your spirit from your body walks pass the pearly gates and you know you are pass them from yards away. So you can look back and make sure. Where the devil can never tempt you again. But in the mean time you will be tempted till then which means your not completely done with your journey in the Lord.
Yes, I do believe that Jesus is Almighty God incarnate and I have no problem with the idea that Mary gave birth to Jesus who is wholly God and wholly man. The Council of Nicea was convened to dispute the heresies that falsely tried to deny the Deity of Jesus and they did a pretty good job of stating, as best as humans can, the mystery of the Trinity. However, I think they went too far by asserting that this made Mary the mother of God. My objection to that is twofold. One, God had no beginning so he had no mother. Jesus the second person of the Triune God, also had no beginning, he always existed and Mary gave birth to the humanity of Jesus not his Deity. Now, I realize that for some, these cannot be separate, but we know from Scripture that Jesus always was, always existed with the Father in eternity, he took on humanity at the incarnation. Christ Bearer, Cristotokos, I would have no problem with.
The second objection is that the result of that ruling in Nicea has resulted in an ever developing, ever growing exaltation of a human being, Mary, that in some cases exceeds that which is given to Jesus and SHOULD be given to him alone.
How can one ignore over 1500 years of Christianity and have the conceit to believe that that whole time period was darkness and error?
I'm not ignoring anything just disagreeing with what is a fault we have as humans that of over doing everything. Just like Peter after the Mount of Transfiguration was so eager and excited he wanted to build a memorial to the event and put in it three altars for Jesus, Moses and Elijah. But what did God say? "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him." Matthew 17:3-5. Now that says something to me about who is supposed to be glorified and honored and praised. At the end EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father.
As has so often been pointed out on so many threads, sola believers need to come to terms that they ignore the foundation that was laid by Christ for the building of His Church and have laid a different one.
I don't ignore that at all but the foundation IS Jesus, HE is the shepherd, we are all members of the Body of Christ that are IN Christ. And the concept of Scripture being the infallible and authoritative source for the truths of the Christian faith is a dearly and ancient held principle. It is NOT a new idea at all. This is an excellent source for reading what the early church leaders believed about the Scriptures and their place in determining the truths we should follow: http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers.htm. I hope you will take a few moments and read it, it is very educational and helpful.
I speak these words as one who did exactly that. It is what I was raised in. Came a time that I was blessed to lay aside my bigotry, admit to my ignorance and begin to look at the passages that I had NOT underlined in my Bible. And to figure out where my Bible actually came from.
As someone who may have made the opposite journey from yours, I not only sought to understand the whole of the Bible but also the Christian faith. I have no ill will nor do I hold any bigotry towards others who don't see things exactly as I do. I think there is no place for such things if we are Christians. Now I DO know where my Bible came from and I have grown in my appreciation of it. We are all moving on a path - none stand still - and God is drawing all to himself. I begrudge no ones journey and only try to be a lantern to the truths he has taught me. I know not everyone will hear it, but I can only do as he leads me and I leave the outcome to him. I don't participate on these forums to injure or destroy but to build up the body of Christ.
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
He also says "save yourselves". Thats an action on our part.
Peter wastes his time with baptism? I do not think so.
Not if I’m using them to counter the Catholics who hold them as authoritive.
Well then don't hold back. Where is your proof that it is "completely false"? Do you have anything more to offer than just blanket statements? I'd like to hear it.
Early Christian writings indicate that the Virgin Mary actually visited Mt. Athos. If anyone had a chance to acquire an article of her clothing, it would have been the residents of Mt. Athos. In honor of the Holy Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary, no other woman has been permitted to set foot on Mt. Athos since then.
Sorry, I’m busy lighting candles.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.So you never, ever have "fits of rage" or any of the others listed sins? Never?
Do you have anything more to offer than just blanket statements? I’d like to hear it.
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