Russians Flock to See Virgin Mary Relic

MSNBC ^ | 11/23/11 | Mansur Mirovalev

[marshmallow]

Tens of thousands wait for hours in freezing temperatures to kiss belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother

MOSCOW — Braving freezing cold temperatures and ice-covered sidewalks, tens of thousands of Russians stood in line Wednesday to see and kiss a newly arrived relic of the Virgin Mary in Russia's largest Orthodox cathedral.

The Virgin Mary's Cincture, a belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother, was brought to Russia last month from Mount Athos, a monastic community in Greece.

Kissing the relic, which is encased in an ornamental box, is believed to help barren women conceive and heal other ailments.

The line of people, mostly women, waiting to enter the golden-domed Christ the Savior Cathedral stretched for 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) along the Moscow River despite temperatures that dropped to below minus 5 Celsius (23 Fahrenheit).

[narses]

CynicalBear wrote:

“That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.”

Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.

Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear:

What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?

What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?

What particular translation of the Bible must we study?

What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?

What makes you certain you are right?

[smvoice]

I won't speak for Cynical Bear, but the "Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church" that I would pay attention to are the creeds that speak of the Assumption of Mary. You know, like the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed, or any other accepted creeds of the early church. After all, they were closest in time to the event. So I'm CERTAIN they would have included it in their creeds. Especially in light of the fact that it is one of those doctrines a Catholic MUST believe for salvation.

[boatbums]

You are correct. There can only be two answers and not the thousands that those who hold to their own magesterium's interpretation expect everyone to believe. Either someone who is born again by faith in Jesus Christ stays saved if he sins or he loses his salvation if he sins. Scripture clearly says we are saved by faith apart from works so, if staying saved is based on works, then we are NOT saved by faith apart from works.

Salvation is granted either by faith OR works. Deserved OR undeserved. Merited OR unmerited. NOT both, NOT and, one or the other. God became man so that man can be redeemed. We cannot pay the penalty for even one sin of our own because the price, the wages, of sin is death - and it's not a physical death but eternal separation from God. But he loved us so much that he made a way for us. Jesus Christ took upon himself the sins of the world - past, present and future - and paid the penalty in our place. When we receive him as our Savior, believe in him, we are made righteous, justified, sanctified and purified. When God looks at us he sees the righteousness of Christ because we are found in him, not having a righteousness of our own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. Phillipians 3:9

So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin, is the false one and is teaching an accursed gospel.

[boatbums]

Why make this thread about another poster? Either stick to the subject or refrain from sarcastic name calling - it doesn’t help your cause.

[narses]

Do you have a hall monitor badge?

Why do you object to me asking another poster who claims to be CERTAIN of the TRUTH questions?

[narses]

So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin...

So you can freely sin in your denomination? Once saved, always saved?

[narses]

“So I’m CERTAIN they would have included it in their creeds.”

You are? Really? So what is the last Council you consider dogmatic? If any?

[smvoice]

WHAT? You say the Assumption of Mary is not part of the Apostle's Creed, or the Nicene Creed, or ANY of the other accepted creeds of the early church? One of the basic tenats of the Catholic faith, and one that every Catholic MUST believe to be saved one day. And it's not even in the summaries of the FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS OF THE FAITH [185-192]??

What good is a creed if a fundamental belief, crucial to one's salvation, is MISSING? NOT MENTIONED? SILENT ON THE SUBJECT? Hmmmmmm....creeds are crucial to "Christianity" WHY, again?

[RnMomof7]

Beautiful to see Russians able to publicly worship Christ again.

That is not worshiping Christ

[RnMomof7]

In Orthodoxy they are worshiping Father (God), Mother (Mary) and Son (Jesus).

By kissing a belt that may or MAY NOT BE from Mary??? I think it lines up more with superstition

[boatbums]

You make a salient point. If the belief in Mary's sinlessness, her ever virgin status, her assumption bodily into heaven, her necessary intercession for us and her status as Mother Of God were so critical for Christians to believe, then why is there NO Scriptural basis for any of those? The apostle John was given the duty to care for her after the Crucifixion and he died in old age many years after Mary would have died, yet he said NOTHING about those doctrines, not in the Gospel, not in his epistles nor in the book of Revelation. I don't know about you, but I would think that if those really WERE apostolic traditions why were they omitted from Holy Scripture? Why did it take hundreds of years later for the ideas to take root? If they are SO critical to the Christian faith, then why is Scripture silent?

Of course, Mary is an example to us of unflinching faith and, of course, we should honor her for her place as the mother of our Savior. We love her as a sister in the Lord and rejoice that one day we will meet her in Heaven. She is honored and respected without the mistake of placing her between us and Jesus. We will all be equal to each other in Heaven and we will give all glory and praise to him. There will BE no mother, father, husband or wife, but only brothers and sisters together in Christ. Only Jesus is our mediator with the Father and because of HIM we have received grace, mercy and forgiveness.

I think some people here confuse age or numbers or might to make something right, but God is the source for all truth and the Bible is his infallible authority gift to us his children. We should know by now that fallible men are not worthy of our unquestioning trust. That is why God gave us the Scriptures as well as the indwelling Holy Spirit who will lead us into all truth.

[RnMomof7]

No more than we worship Lincoln by paying thousands of dollars for his letters and autographs.

lets look at that..1st we would have EXPERTS validate the authenticity of the object..2nd no one would kiss them expecting to get as little less burn time by that ...Odds are that this belt is not from mary and like most Rc "relics" is little more than a scam

[CynicalBear]

>> Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear:<<

Why do you start with a typical Catholic error?

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

>> What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?<<

Jeremiah 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

Job 15:8 Have you heard the council of God? and do you limit wisdom to yourself?

>> What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?<<

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

>>What particular translation of the Bible must we study?<<

The one with 66 books along with a Greek Hebrew lexicon.

>>What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?<<

The one led by Jesus Christ whose members may be may find themselves in any one of a myriad of churches or no organized church at all.

[smvoice]

The last Council that I consider dogmatic is the first Council. At Jerusalem. Acts 15. Where James, the brother of Jesus, was president. I’m not aware of any more Christian Councils in the Bible after that one.

[CynicalBear]

Oh sure, you had to bring up the fact that Jesus had a brother and Mary had other children didn’t you. :-)

[don-o]

That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.

Ignoring the Catholic bash (my question was to sola believers...what I hear you saying is that if two such believers come to different conclusions (which they do on many important and vital matters) then one of them is simply not listening to the Holy Spirit. Please confirm that is what you are saying.

[smvoice]

lol! You don’t think it was too much TRUTH overload, do you?..:)

[lastchance]

They are more to be pitied than censured.

[lastchance]

So according to you Russian Orthodoxy is not a Christian church?

[boatbums]

Do you have a hall monitor badge? Why do you object to me asking another poster who claims to be CERTAIN of the TRUTH questions?

Haven't you heard? the Moderator wouldn't need to have deputies if we do a good enough job moderating ourselves. It was a friendly reminder. As far as objecting to asking another poster questions of which he feels certain is the truth, I have no problems at all with that, in fact, CB was doing just that. If that was what you were really doing, then I wonder why there was a need to couch your questions with:

Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.

Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear

Your other questions were valid AND asked appropriately and, I would hope, asked in a spirit of respect. Any other way doesn't deserve an answer.