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Russians Flock to See Virgin Mary Relic
MSNBC ^ | 11/23/11 | Mansur Mirovalev

Posted on 11/25/2011 6:55:10 AM PST by marshmallow

Tens of thousands wait for hours in freezing temperatures to kiss belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother

MOSCOW — Braving freezing cold temperatures and ice-covered sidewalks, tens of thousands of Russians stood in line Wednesday to see and kiss a newly arrived relic of the Virgin Mary in Russia's largest Orthodox cathedral.

The Virgin Mary's Cincture, a belt that Christians believe was worn by Jesus' mother, was brought to Russia last month from Mount Athos, a monastic community in Greece.

Kissing the relic, which is encased in an ornamental box, is believed to help barren women conceive and heal other ailments.

The line of people, mostly women, waiting to enter the golden-domed Christ the Savior Cathedral stretched for 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) along the Moscow River despite temperatures that dropped to below minus 5 Celsius (23 Fahrenheit).

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: christianity; moscow; religion; russia
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To: CynicalBear

I was reposing my response to 22. Any answer? Is it JW? Or maybe SDA?


51 posted on 11/25/2011 4:00:28 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: RobbyS
>> Everyone has the capacity to learn a language, but the language he does learn depends on his teachers.<<

Maybe you have the wrong teacher?

I Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

52 posted on 11/25/2011 4:06:04 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: narses

If we are cleansed by the blood of Christ and we appear before the throne of God as pure what will we be judged for?


53 posted on 11/25/2011 4:12:43 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Cat got your tongue? Are you unwilling to disclose what odd cult teaches the things you post?


54 posted on 11/25/2011 4:22:09 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: marshmallow
I read the whole thread. I see the quick hijack as usual. I detect more than a whiff of envy. These sola religions have no coherence. They have no historic authenticity. They rail against "man made traditions and institution". But all thy bring is their own opinions or the opinion of whatever teacher / man has captured their loyalty. Or they have the Holy Spirit giving the assurance for whatever they decide to believe in.

About the latter, I have asked before, but never received anything close to an answer :

How can it be that the Holy Spirit directs two believers to mutually exclusive conclusions on what Scripture means? One example, among many - can a "born again" believer fall away and lose his salvation? Some sola religions say yes; some say no.

That is confusion, of which God is not the Author.

55 posted on 11/25/2011 4:31:51 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: narses

Ok, but only if you don’t tell anyone. K? It’s all from scripture. You know, those 66 books we call the Bible.


56 posted on 11/25/2011 4:35:33 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Really? And yet you posit some very odd beliefs that seem to twist scripture into pretzels. That is the danger in:


57 posted on 11/25/2011 4:36:50 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses

Catholics like those third grade picture books don’t they?


58 posted on 11/25/2011 4:41:30 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: don-o; CynicalBear
don-o asks:
How can it be that the Holy Spirit directs two believers to mutually exclusive conclusions on what Scripture means? One example, among many - can a "born again" believer fall away and lose his salvation? Some sola religions say yes; some say no.
Maybe, just maybe, CynicalBear in his careful and alone, solo study of whatever odd translation of Holy Writ he believes to be the one and only, TRUE version of tthe Word of God can answer that time tested question. Maybe.
59 posted on 11/25/2011 4:44:45 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses; don-o

That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.


60 posted on 11/25/2011 4:51:01 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; don-o; crusadersoldier; Ellzeena; Anvilhead; stonehouse01; Goreknowshowtocheat; ...

CynicalBear wrote:

“That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.”

Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.

Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear:

What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?

What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?

What particular translation of the Bible must we study?

What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?

What makes you certain you are right?


61 posted on 11/25/2011 4:58:57 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses; CynicalBear
I won't speak for Cynical Bear, but the "Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church" that I would pay attention to are the creeds that speak of the Assumption of Mary. You know, like the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed, or any other accepted creeds of the early church. After all, they were closest in time to the event. So I'm CERTAIN they would have included it in their creeds. Especially in light of the fact that it is one of those doctrines a Catholic MUST believe for salvation.
62 posted on 11/25/2011 5:14:08 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: CynicalBear
You are correct. There can only be two answers and not the thousands that those who hold to their own magesterium's interpretation expect everyone to believe. Either someone who is born again by faith in Jesus Christ stays saved if he sins or he loses his salvation if he sins. Scripture clearly says we are saved by faith apart from works so, if staying saved is based on works, then we are NOT saved by faith apart from works.

Salvation is granted either by faith OR works. Deserved OR undeserved. Merited OR unmerited. NOT both, NOT and, one or the other. God became man so that man can be redeemed. We cannot pay the penalty for even one sin of our own because the price, the wages, of sin is death - and it's not a physical death but eternal separation from God. But he loved us so much that he made a way for us. Jesus Christ took upon himself the sins of the world - past, present and future - and paid the penalty in our place. When we receive him as our Savior, believe in him, we are made righteous, justified, sanctified and purified. When God looks at us he sees the righteousness of Christ because we are found in him, not having a righteousness of our own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. Phillipians 3:9

So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin, is the false one and is teaching an accursed gospel.

63 posted on 11/25/2011 5:15:40 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: narses

Why make this thread about another poster? Either stick to the subject or refrain from sarcastic name calling - it doesn’t help your cause.


64 posted on 11/25/2011 5:20:03 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

Do you have a hall monitor badge?

Why do you object to me asking another poster who claims to be CERTAIN of the TRUTH questions?


65 posted on 11/25/2011 5:21:47 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: boatbums
So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin...
So you can freely sin in your denomination? Once saved, always saved?
66 posted on 11/25/2011 5:22:48 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: smvoice

“So I’m CERTAIN they would have included it in their creeds.”

You are? Really? So what is the last Council you consider dogmatic? If any?


67 posted on 11/25/2011 5:26:55 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses; CynicalBear
WHAT? You say the Assumption of Mary is not part of the Apostle's Creed, or the Nicene Creed, or ANY of the other accepted creeds of the early church? One of the basic tenats of the Catholic faith, and one that every Catholic MUST believe to be saved one day. And it's not even in the summaries of the FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS OF THE FAITH [185-192]??

What good is a creed if a fundamental belief, crucial to one's salvation, is MISSING? NOT MENTIONED? SILENT ON THE SUBJECT? Hmmmmmm....creeds are crucial to "Christianity" WHY, again?

68 posted on 11/25/2011 5:31:22 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: GOP Poet
Beautiful to see Russians able to publicly worship Christ again.

That is not worshiping Christ

69 posted on 11/25/2011 5:42:48 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: cunning_fish
In Orthodoxy they are worshiping Father (God), Mother (Mary) and Son (Jesus).

By kissing a belt that may or MAY NOT BE from Mary??? I think it lines up more with superstition

70 posted on 11/25/2011 5:44:36 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: smvoice; CynicalBear
You make a salient point. If the belief in Mary's sinlessness, her ever virgin status, her assumption bodily into heaven, her necessary intercession for us and her status as Mother Of God were so critical for Christians to believe, then why is there NO Scriptural basis for any of those? The apostle John was given the duty to care for her after the Crucifixion and he died in old age many years after Mary would have died, yet he said NOTHING about those doctrines, not in the Gospel, not in his epistles nor in the book of Revelation. I don't know about you, but I would think that if those really WERE apostolic traditions why were they omitted from Holy Scripture? Why did it take hundreds of years later for the ideas to take root? If they are SO critical to the Christian faith, then why is Scripture silent?

Of course, Mary is an example to us of unflinching faith and, of course, we should honor her for her place as the mother of our Savior. We love her as a sister in the Lord and rejoice that one day we will meet her in Heaven. She is honored and respected without the mistake of placing her between us and Jesus. We will all be equal to each other in Heaven and we will give all glory and praise to him. There will BE no mother, father, husband or wife, but only brothers and sisters together in Christ. Only Jesus is our mediator with the Father and because of HIM we have received grace, mercy and forgiveness.

I think some people here confuse age or numbers or might to make something right, but God is the source for all truth and the Bible is his infallible authority gift to us his children. We should know by now that fallible men are not worthy of our unquestioning trust. That is why God gave us the Scriptures as well as the indwelling Holy Spirit who will lead us into all truth.

71 posted on 11/25/2011 5:45:34 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: RobbyS; crosshairs
No more than we worship Lincoln by paying thousands of dollars for his letters and autographs.

lets look at that..1st we would have EXPERTS validate the authenticity of the object..2nd no one would kiss them expecting to get as little less burn time by that ...Odds are that this belt is not from mary and like most Rc "relics" is little more than a scam

72 posted on 11/25/2011 5:48:08 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: narses; smvoice
>> Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear:<<

Why do you start with a typical Catholic error?

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

>> What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?<<

Jeremiah 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

Job 15:8 Have you heard the council of God? and do you limit wisdom to yourself?

>> What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?<<

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

>>What particular translation of the Bible must we study?<<

The one with 66 books along with a Greek Hebrew lexicon.

>>What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?<<

The one led by Jesus Christ whose members may be may find themselves in any one of a myriad of churches or no organized church at all.

73 posted on 11/25/2011 5:49:04 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: narses

The last Council that I consider dogmatic is the first Council. At Jerusalem. Acts 15. Where James, the brother of Jesus, was president. I’m not aware of any more Christian Councils in the Bible after that one.


74 posted on 11/25/2011 5:51:31 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

Oh sure, you had to bring up the fact that Jesus had a brother and Mary had other children didn’t you. :-)


75 posted on 11/25/2011 6:01:18 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.

Ignoring the Catholic bash (my question was to sola believers...what I hear you saying is that if two such believers come to different conclusions (which they do on many important and vital matters) then one of them is simply not listening to the Holy Spirit. Please confirm that is what you are saying.

76 posted on 11/25/2011 6:02:35 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: CynicalBear

lol! You don’t think it was too much TRUTH overload, do you?..:)


77 posted on 11/25/2011 6:07:58 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: marshmallow

They are more to be pitied than censured.


78 posted on 11/25/2011 6:11:38 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: RnMomof7

So according to you Russian Orthodoxy is not a Christian church?


79 posted on 11/25/2011 6:17:42 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: narses; CynicalBear
Do you have a hall monitor badge? Why do you object to me asking another poster who claims to be CERTAIN of the TRUTH questions?

Haven't you heard? the Moderator wouldn't need to have deputies if we do a good enough job moderating ourselves. It was a friendly reminder. As far as objecting to asking another poster questions of which he feels certain is the truth, I have no problems at all with that, in fact, CB was doing just that. If that was what you were really doing, then I wonder why there was a need to couch your questions with:

Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.

Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear

Your other questions were valid AND asked appropriately and, I would hope, asked in a spirit of respect. Any other way doesn't deserve an answer.

80 posted on 11/25/2011 6:17:53 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: don-o
>> which they do on many important and vital matters<<

There is only one “vital matter”.

“believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved – and your house”.

What other "vital matter" could you possibly be talking about?

81 posted on 11/25/2011 6:18:31 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

CynicalBear wrote:

“That’s not difficult to answer at all. One of them isn’t listening. Just like the Catholics don’t listen.”

Well, let us listen to the prophet CynicalBear then.

Questions, oh holy and all knowing CynicalBear:

What Councils of the Church should we pay attention to?

What Creeds enunciated by the ancient Church should we pay attention to?

What particular translation of the Bible must we study?

What denominations are the closest to what you are certain is the True Church?

What makes you certain you are right?


82 posted on 11/25/2011 6:30:37 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: boatbums
and her status as Mother Of God were so critical for Christians to believe, then why is there NO Scriptural basis for any of those?

Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you believe that Jesus was a human? Have you heard of the heresies that arose that denied this human nature?

How can one ignore over 1500 years of Christianity and have the conceit to believe that that whole time period was darkness and error?

As has so often been pointed out on so many threads, sola believers need to come to terms that they ignore the foundation that was laid by Christ for the building of His Church and have laid a different one.

I speak these words as one who did exactly that. It is what I was raised in. Came a time that I was blessed to lay aside my bigotry, admit to my ignorance and begin to look at the passages that I had NOT underlined in my Bible. And to figure out where my Bible actually came from.

83 posted on 11/25/2011 6:33:23 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: CynicalBear
What other "vital matter" could you possibly be talking about?

What about the passage that says "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved? So is it believe only or believe AND be baptized. I read both in my Bible?

84 posted on 11/25/2011 6:37:02 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: narses
So you can freely sin in your denomination? Once saved, always saved?

Galatians 2:16-21

Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 5:13-26

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

85 posted on 11/25/2011 6:38:03 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

>>>>>So, I would have to say that whatever denomination or cult or sect teaches that we can lose our salvation if we sin, is the false one and is teaching an accursed gospel.

Alternately, that viewpoint is completely false.


86 posted on 11/25/2011 7:04:36 PM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: RnMomof7
Didn't someone say something about how if all the splinters of wood purported to be from the cross of Christ were collected together, they could build a thousand ships? Sometimes, I think people take things more than a bit too far and, as it relates to our Savior, Jesus Christ, it brings shame unto his name. With all the supposed relics and visions and apparitions with their shrines and basilicas, fountains and altars, I wonder how many people have really and truly come to saving faith in Jesus Christ? How many do we never hear of who went away brokenhearted, dead in faith and severely disappointed that their sincere entreaties for miracles went ungranted, or their precious children suffered and died? I believe God desires us to seek after him and his will and not place our hopes in relics and tangible things but to rest in knowing his will for us will always be what is best for us.
87 posted on 11/25/2011 7:10:16 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: don-o
So were they saved before they were baptized? How about the thief on the cross?

If we must be baptized to be saved it would be works based. Salvation is not based on what we do but on what Christ did. Scripture over and over again shows that we do not perform works to be saved, but that we will perform works if we are saved. Baptism is not the cause of being saved but a response to being saved. The question then is this If you are saved, and you know what baptism means and that it was commanded by Christ, why would you not be baptized?

A person does not become baptized to be saved, but a person is saved and is therefore baptized.

Even two of the early Christian writers indicate that the verses you refer to are not actually found in the early manuscripts. Eusebius (Quaestiones ad Marinum I) says that they are not in "accurate" copies of Mark and are missing from "almost all" manuscripts; Jerome (Epistle CXX.3, ad Hedibiam) testifies that almost all Greek manuscripts of his time lack vss. 9-20.

So even the Catholic Church would have to admit that the verses of Mark 16:9-20 should not be used for doctrine.

88 posted on 11/25/2011 7:19:56 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
So do we have a trustworthy Bible or not? Interesting reference to "the early Christian writers". Be careful going there. There be a lot of writings that will smash the man made sola doctrines.

Especially stay away from Ignatius of Antioch. That "medicine of immprtality" talk and the instructions regarding the Bishops might rock our world as it did mine.

89 posted on 11/25/2011 7:31:09 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: Judith Anne
Alternately, that viewpoint is completely false.

And vice versa. Say, how deep DOES the rabbit hole go?

90 posted on 11/25/2011 7:32:53 PM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: CynicalBear

You have used excerpts of this prayer several times. The spin placed on it is incorrect. There is nothing in that prayer that supplants or replaces God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

It is a poetic prayer, an ode(a la the psalms), regarding the blessings Mary has received from God. It was written on the occasion of the declaration of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. It is not a prayer that is said in Mass, nor one that Catholics are bound to pray.

It says nothing of Mary being the source of our salvation. Rather she is the first recipient of Salvation and knew our Lord more intimately than any human from the moment of His conception to His death and then His ascension.

It is an expression of the joy and love Catholics have for the Mother of Our Savior, our mother, given to us from the cross as He suffered and died for our sins.

“When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’. Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’” (Jn 19:26-27).

It seems that in the joylessness that is protestantism, it is inconceivable to acknowledge that there is no love, no praise and no honor that man can give Mary greater than that bestowed on her by God when He chose her to bear His Son to the world.


91 posted on 11/25/2011 8:00:28 PM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear
How about the thief on the cross?

Gee! I do not think hanging on the cross made it easy to be baptised. He had what was called baptism of desire. Christ then recognized his humble request.

You are fully saved when your spirit from your body walks pass the pearly gates and you know you are pass them from yards away. So you can look back and make sure. Where the devil can never tempt you again. But in the mean time you will be tempted till then which means your not completely done with your journey in the Lord.

92 posted on 11/25/2011 8:08:04 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: don-o
Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you believe that Jesus was a human? Have you heard of the heresies that arose that denied this human nature?

Yes, I do believe that Jesus is Almighty God incarnate and I have no problem with the idea that Mary gave birth to Jesus who is wholly God and wholly man. The Council of Nicea was convened to dispute the heresies that falsely tried to deny the Deity of Jesus and they did a pretty good job of stating, as best as humans can, the mystery of the Trinity. However, I think they went too far by asserting that this made Mary the mother of God. My objection to that is twofold. One, God had no beginning so he had no mother. Jesus the second person of the Triune God, also had no beginning, he always existed and Mary gave birth to the humanity of Jesus not his Deity. Now, I realize that for some, these cannot be separate, but we know from Scripture that Jesus always was, always existed with the Father in eternity, he took on humanity at the incarnation. Christ Bearer, Cristotokos, I would have no problem with.

The second objection is that the result of that ruling in Nicea has resulted in an ever developing, ever growing exaltation of a human being, Mary, that in some cases exceeds that which is given to Jesus and SHOULD be given to him alone.

How can one ignore over 1500 years of Christianity and have the conceit to believe that that whole time period was darkness and error?

I'm not ignoring anything just disagreeing with what is a fault we have as humans that of over doing everything. Just like Peter after the Mount of Transfiguration was so eager and excited he wanted to build a memorial to the event and put in it three altars for Jesus, Moses and Elijah. But what did God say? "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him." Matthew 17:3-5. Now that says something to me about who is supposed to be glorified and honored and praised. At the end EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father.

As has so often been pointed out on so many threads, sola believers need to come to terms that they ignore the foundation that was laid by Christ for the building of His Church and have laid a different one.

I don't ignore that at all but the foundation IS Jesus, HE is the shepherd, we are all members of the Body of Christ that are IN Christ. And the concept of Scripture being the infallible and authoritative source for the truths of the Christian faith is a dearly and ancient held principle. It is NOT a new idea at all. This is an excellent source for reading what the early church leaders believed about the Scriptures and their place in determining the truths we should follow: http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers.htm. I hope you will take a few moments and read it, it is very educational and helpful.

I speak these words as one who did exactly that. It is what I was raised in. Came a time that I was blessed to lay aside my bigotry, admit to my ignorance and begin to look at the passages that I had NOT underlined in my Bible. And to figure out where my Bible actually came from.

As someone who may have made the opposite journey from yours, I not only sought to understand the whole of the Bible but also the Christian faith. I have no ill will nor do I hold any bigotry towards others who don't see things exactly as I do. I think there is no place for such things if we are Christians. Now I DO know where my Bible came from and I have grown in my appreciation of it. We are all moving on a path - none stand still - and God is drawing all to himself. I begrudge no ones journey and only try to be a lantern to the truths he has taught me. I know not everyone will hear it, but I can only do as he leads me and I leave the outcome to him. I don't participate on these forums to injure or destroy but to build up the body of Christ.

93 posted on 11/25/2011 8:08:25 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: CynicalBear
Acts 2:

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

He also says "save yourselves". Thats an action on our part.

Peter wastes his time with baptism? I do not think so.

94 posted on 11/25/2011 8:14:22 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass.)
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To: don-o
>> Be careful going there<<

Not if I’m using them to counter the Catholics who hold them as authoritive.

95 posted on 11/25/2011 8:14:35 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Judith Anne
Alternately, that viewpoint is completely false.

Well then don't hold back. Where is your proof that it is "completely false"? Do you have anything more to offer than just blanket statements? I'd like to hear it.

96 posted on 11/25/2011 8:19:59 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: RnMomof7

Early Christian writings indicate that the Virgin Mary actually visited Mt. Athos. If anyone had a chance to acquire an article of her clothing, it would have been the residents of Mt. Athos. In honor of the Holy Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary, no other woman has been permitted to set foot on Mt. Athos since then.


97 posted on 11/25/2011 8:21:46 PM PST by toothfairy86
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To: boatbums

Sorry, I’m busy lighting candles.


98 posted on 11/25/2011 8:21:55 PM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: boatbums
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
So you never, ever have "fits of rage" or any of the others listed sins? Never?
99 posted on 11/25/2011 8:24:48 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: boatbums

Do you have anything more to offer than just blanket statements? I’d like to hear it.


100 posted on 11/25/2011 8:25:40 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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