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Following the Truth: A Biblical Roadmap To The One, True Church (Catholic or Open)
CatholicLane.com ^ | May 12, 2011 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 11/28/2011 8:12:49 AM PST by Salvation

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To: ottbmare

Would this be why the Catholic Church altered the 10 commandments? The second commandment of not making or bowing down to graven images seems to be violated at each gathering.

Think the Lord doesn’t care about it? Read the Old Testament and see His rage against idolatry.

None of my Catholic friends even read their Bibles. Quite honestly, many of them have deeply lacked any type of work ethic.

Just for your reading pleasure, here’s the 2nd Commandment:

Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations.


101 posted on 11/28/2011 3:12:25 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: RoadTest
I think you mean, "that's what the Council of Trent taught," don't you? Because the Council took place in the mid-sixteenth century. Other councils, Vatican I and Vatican II, have taken place since and have clarified doctrinal points.
102 posted on 11/28/2011 3:13:05 PM PST by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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Also, read how the Lord didn’t want to establish a hierarchy, which you can read about in Judges and in Samuel. Isreal wanted a King. The Lord didn’t want them to have a king, but instead wanted to appoint judges to handle disputes. I don’t believe it’s the Lord’s will to have a hierarchial system as exists in the Catholic Church.

Please quit saying that the non-Catholics are not posting scriptural references. We are. You are just refusing to acknowledge them.

Please answer me about the omission of the 2nd commandment. I’m curious as to how this passes the smell test for most Catholics.


103 posted on 11/28/2011 3:13:51 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: sasportas; NYer
You are cherry-picking randomly.

Did you miss NYer's post above?

Reality check ... Non-Catholic Clergy Abuse & Crimes


104 posted on 11/28/2011 3:15:02 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Country Gal

**None of my Catholic friends even read their Bibles.**

Well, we do!


105 posted on 11/28/2011 3:18:49 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ottbmare

I don’t believe that any denomination has a monopoly on the truth. And to say that any does is wrong.

I believe we will see Baptists, Catholics, Pentecostals, Lutherans, (insert Christian denomination here).

It’s through the Blood of Christ and nothing else. As far as needing to go through a priest for the forgiveness of our sins, “No man comes to the Father, except through the Son”. No one else is needed. Praise God for that!


106 posted on 11/28/2011 3:19:48 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: sasportas; Salvation
Remember, it is your institution, not Protestantism, that forces celibacy on its Popes, priest, and nuns.

Forces? Who ever told you that?! Celibacy is chosen, not forced - and - it is SCRIPTURAL. (1 Corinthians 7:32-35). Moreover, the Catholic Church has many married priests, the majority of which are found in the Eastern Churches. Yesterday, a seminarian visiting our parish, related the story of his journey to the priesthood. Coming from an Eastern Catholic Church, he explained how he had approached the option of married vs celibate. He CHOSE celibate, to emulate St. Paul.

Hope this clarifies your misunderstanding of the Catholic priesthood.

107 posted on 11/28/2011 3:22:44 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: JohnC2004

Some important scriptures:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

I don’t need a priest or any other human to give me access to my heavenly Father.

What I need to be saved:
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Personally from what I’ve seen, many Catholics are not filled with the Holy Spirit. I’ve seen so many horrible work-ethic abuses that take place by my Catholic co-workers, and often wonder how they can reconcile this with their “faith”. Not to mention the abuses that have occurred throughout history by the Catholic church.

It’s heart-breaking. Thankfully, many people are opening their Bibles and reading God’s plan of salvation for themselves. Our church is filled with former Catholics who have found freedom. Praise you, Jesus!


108 posted on 11/28/2011 3:23:32 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Salvation
Catch-22.
Not even. Are you actually interested in the "how" or just taking cheap shots?
109 posted on 11/28/2011 3:27:44 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Salvation

A. unless you are a prophet you can’t say that.
B. There are prominent US politicians who call themselves Catholics who not only embrace those ideas, they actively promote them. And their Catholic priests and Bishops apparently are perfectly ok with it.


110 posted on 11/28/2011 3:28:49 PM PST by DManA
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To: Country Gal

I think you need to get some new Catholic friends or else start studying the truth about the Catholic Church.

You are believing those comic book things that get passed out at non-Catholic churches.

Please, one person above started with the encyclopedia.


111 posted on 11/28/2011 3:30:59 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Country Gal

Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

I invite you to attend one and feel the difference. You will be astounded at what the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus Christ feels like.


112 posted on 11/28/2011 3:32:12 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; ottbmare

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/church-authority.html


113 posted on 11/28/2011 3:32:12 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: DManA

The bishops have reprimanded them and asked them not to receive Communion.

Actually these people have excommunicated themselves by supporting abortion, etc. They won’t be happy at their particular judgment, unless they have a death-bed re-conversion, that is.


114 posted on 11/28/2011 3:34:11 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DManA

They are not REAL Catholics, only CINOs.


115 posted on 11/28/2011 3:34:38 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Three whole posts berfore a fundie says something ignorant.


116 posted on 11/28/2011 4:08:50 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: Country Gal
And Baptists play with Jesus action figures.
117 posted on 11/28/2011 4:10:09 PM PST by rzman21
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To: NYer

Your interpretation of 1 Cor. 7 doesn’t square with 1 Tim. 3:2...and other passages that I’m not going to take the time to look up, 1 Tim. 3:2 is all we need.

As to your claims that the RCC, and the Eastern Orthodox to a greater extent, are loosening up on celibacy, I’m sure altar boys everywhere are happy to hear that!


118 posted on 11/28/2011 4:15:17 PM PST by sasportas
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To: PetroniusMaximus
. (I haven’t been able to get a clear answer from a Catholic yet.) On what does the Catholic church base it’s claim to authority? Serious question.

I have personally answered this question to you five times. You either don't like the answer of can't understand it but here goes for the sixth time.

Now pay attention to the Words of Jesus

Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Jesus promises the Church will be built on Peter, that Church will have authority and the succesors ofthe apostels willhave that same authority. seems pretty clear.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

Tells the apost4els to spread th word.

Here is the authority he gave to the aposltes and their succesors.

(forgiving sins) Joh 20:23 whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

(Offer the sacrifice of the Mass) 1Co 11:23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 1Co 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.

(Speak with God's own voice)Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that rejecteth you rejecteth me; and he that rejecteth me rejecteth him that sent me.

(power to legislate)Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(power to discipline)Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.

119 posted on 11/28/2011 4:33:53 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: Nifster
I will take the KJV translation as being done with utmost care and thoughtful prayer. Then try the Douay Rheims, It actually has all the orignal books of the Bible
120 posted on 11/28/2011 4:37:41 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: Country Gal

My dear sister in Christ, seriously, I’ve been in Catholic churches all over Europe and the US and I can’t ever recall one occasion in which the people were worshipping statues of birds and fish. Not a single one. Offhand I can’t even remember seeing a statue of a bird or a fish in a Catholic church, much less one being worshipped. Catholics don’t even worship statues of people.

You see, this is exactly what I meant when I wrote that it’s helpful to have an exchange about the specific doctrinal points Protestants dislike about Catholicism. Too often there’s some kind of misconception about what Catholics do and believe.


121 posted on 11/28/2011 4:53:27 PM PST by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: Salvation; NYer

Great article, thanks for the ping.


122 posted on 11/28/2011 4:56:56 PM PST by Gerish (Feed your faith and your doubts will starve to death.)
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To: verga

“Now pay attention to the Words of Jesus...”

So you are saying that the Catholic church base it’s claim to authority on the Scripture?


123 posted on 11/28/2011 5:16:18 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: narses

“Not even. Are you actually interested in the “how” or just taking cheap shots?”

I wouldn’t post the argument if I didn’t believe it to be true.


124 posted on 11/28/2011 5:27:31 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: narses; ottbmare

Looks like that article says the Catholic church bases it’s claim to authority on the Scripture.

Is that your position?


125 posted on 11/28/2011 5:29:56 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: rzman21
"Protestantism is founded on William of Ockham’s philosophy and its application to the Bible and Christian faith in general."

They can't stick to it and make any sense of their own doctrines, though. They pick out or make up a doctrine that suits their own intellect, figure out that the simplest case disagrees with their preferred doctrine, then make up reasons to take exception with their own approach. Even applying Ockham would show them how wrong they are on my things. They do begin with Ockham but they drop that approch like a hot rock as soon as anyone asks a question rather than allowing themselves to be force fed.

Regards

126 posted on 11/28/2011 5:36:41 PM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: ottbmare; Country Gal
"Offhand I can’t even remember seeing a statue of a bird or a fish in a Catholic church, much less one being worshipped. Catholics don’t even worship statues of people."

I think this sort of illustrates her point...

"You must never worship or bow down to them,"
127 posted on 11/28/2011 5:38:16 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: verga

“Three whole posts berfore a fundie says something ignorant.”

That’s very often the crux of catholic argument, “You non catholics are simply too STUPID to understand our position!”

You realize that’s the same argument the Leftist and liberals use.


128 posted on 11/28/2011 5:46:25 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Catholics venerate Mary. We don’t worship her. When we kneel, we are praying to God and we are asking Mary, the woman God chose to be the vessel in which He would begin to live as man, to join her prayers to ours. When you’re sick or in distress, you probably ask holy people in your church or among your friends to pray for you, because you knows that the Bible tells us “the prayers of the righteous availeth much’” So if you ask someone else who is specially holy and specially privileged by God to pray for you, her prayers might help things even more than if you ask your friend to pray for you.

Yes, there is beautiful artwork in and around Catholic churches—some of the most beautiful work ever made by humans. Statues and paintings are reminders to help us visualize, not objects of worship.


129 posted on 11/28/2011 5:51:09 PM PST by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Certainly Scripture is a critical part. Understand that Scripture as scrip - the written documents - post dated the founding of the Church, at least in regards the New Testament. The Acts of the Apostles are a very important part of the foundational authority of the Universal Apostolic Church. Since the very Church that codified the WRITTEN Acts also was the Church that the Apostles governed, they also had already established the start of what we now call Tradition, which supports the same authority.


130 posted on 11/28/2011 5:54:38 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

That’s why the Eastern Church doesn’t use statues.


131 posted on 11/28/2011 5:56:38 PM PST by rzman21
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Then are you saying that Jesus lied when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church?


132 posted on 11/28/2011 7:12:53 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

***
“We are to look to “the Church” to discover the truth…but which one? “

A hint: It won’t be one that molests your children then seeks to cover it up.
***

No it will be your local school district or Protestant church.


133 posted on 11/28/2011 7:14:15 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: Salvation

I’ve been to several Catholic masses. They left me feeling very empty. I could not wait to get back to my church service to feel the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus Christ.

Our non-denominatinal church specializes in reaching out to the drug / alcohol addicted. So many people have been able to be freed from horrible addictions just by the Blood of Christ and a true relationship with Him. Not through sacraments.

Why do so many Catholics call us evangelicals “Jesus freaks”? If you love someone, you should want to talk about them. Not make fun of people who do.


134 posted on 11/28/2011 8:26:35 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: rzman21

We don’t bow down to them.


135 posted on 11/28/2011 8:26:41 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: ottbmare

The last Mass that I was at (and it’s been the same for the prior masses, too btw), people would do some sort of curtsie thing before even sitting down. While doing so, they would look at a statue of Mary and make the sign of the Cross.

Sure looked like bowing, or at least curtsying, to me.

No, it wasn’t to a statue of a fish or a bird, it was to a statue of Mary.

The old testament is replete with God’s warning of people making idols and bowing down to them. Open any of the books in the Old Testament and you’ll see it.


136 posted on 11/28/2011 8:27:03 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: verga

John 16:25

This passage is after the Lord’s supper and after Jesus’ comment to Peter about being the rock.

25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

He had been speaking figuratively up until just before He was arrested.


137 posted on 11/28/2011 8:27:23 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: ottbmare

I do ask people to pray for me. I don’t bow down to them.

This is one of the things that drives me crazy. Catholics swear that they don’t bow down to statutes, yet every Catholic mass I’ve been do, they are bowing down to statutes. Then they say that’s not what’s really happening. Please, don’t insult my intelligence.

I believe Catholics are Christians. Just stop with the “We are the true church” stuff. It’s not correct and is insulting to those of us who love Jesus with all of our hearts and work so hard to spread His message and are not Catholic. It is very disrespectful and wrong.


138 posted on 11/28/2011 8:27:42 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

“Then are you saying that Jesus lied when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church?”

The church is made up of the true followers of Jesus Christ.

Death, i.e. the “Gates of Hell” will not prevail against His followers for He will raise them up on the last day.


139 posted on 11/28/2011 8:33:41 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Salvation
"How would you know you were forgiven? How would you know God forgot your sins?"

So you do doubt my salvation, just because I don't attend a Catholic church?

My answer - 2 Cor 13:5 - "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"

Do you fail this test?

Here is an excellent resource regarding salvation:

...snip...

Conclusion

If you're lacking assurance--if you're plagued withdoubts and have lost your joy, become useless in Christian service, empty in worship, cold in praise, passionless in prayer, and vulnerable to false teachers--whatever the problem, know there is a cure: obeying God's Word in the power of the Spirit.

Let's take the first step toward doing that by applying an ancient technique--a question-and-answer process known as a catechism--to help us think through what God's Word teaches about assurance. The Greek word katacheo means "to echo back." So echo back God's truth as you slowly and thoughtfully read the following:

■Question: What is the essential duty a person has in this world? Consummating a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, which is to recognize His work on the cross and His resurrection from the dead as the satisfying atonement for sin, and to walk in accordance with that relationship.

■Question: Don't all members of the church have a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? No, only those who are truly saved.

■Question: How can I be certain I have that saving relationship? The Lord will have done in your soul His own sovereign will--that of calling you to Himself through a work of conviction and humiliation so you will have discovered your sin and misery, and, being so seriously agitated and threatened by it, you long for the Savior.

■Question: How can I know if I've made sufficient discovery and admission of my sin? By taking salvation to your heart above any other pursuit in life. It will make Christ, your Redeemer, very precious to your soul. It will make you fear sin, repent, and seek to be saved on God's terms.

■Question: What's another way of discerning a saving relationship to Christ? A strong and serious affection that reaches toward Christ as He is progressively revealed to you in the gospel. Such love is the product of saving belief.

■Question: Are there other marks of a relationship with Christ? You are truly saved when you have been made a whole new person, graciously changed and renewed. That is best evidenced by a desire to shun sin and pattern your life in obedience toward God's righteous demands.

■Question: What if I find sin prevailing over me? Although every sin deserves eternal vengeance, if you regularly confess your sins with unhypocritical repentance and shame before God--fleeing to Christ for forgiveness for all known and unknown iniquities--He will grant you mercy and pardon because you stand in grace, and your salvation is forever secure.

■Question: What if my sins are serious and repeated? Whatever they are, Jesus Christ has paid the price for them so that if you sincerely and earnestly have turned to Him in repentant faith, you will never enter into condemnation. Moreover, His gracious provision for those who believe includes power to overcome sin and live righteously.

■Question: Is faith alone the requirement for salvation? Yes, it is the only basis upon which God offers peace and pardon to mankind. However, faith--if it is genuine--will not be alone in the soul, but will always be accompanied by true repentance and an eager desire to conform to God's will and way.

■Question: How can I be sure I've settled my eternal destiny with the Lord? Express with your mouth to God what the Holy Spirit through Scripture has led you to believe in your heart.

■Question: What are the results of a relationship with Christ? Union and communion with God here, and blessed fellowship and glory hereafter.

■Question: How can I come to full assurance that I have such a relationship? By affirming the promises of God as revealed in Scripture by the internal witness of the Spirit, and by manifesting real and righteous fruit born out of love for the Person of Christ and the desire to bring Him honor and glory.

Don't continue to live with doubts about your eternal salvation. Rather, live with the blessed assurance God wants you to enjoy as His child.

http://www.gty.org/resources/Positions/P17/A-Believers-Assurance-A-Practical-Guide-to-Victory-over-Doubt
140 posted on 11/28/2011 8:36:40 PM PST by Squidpup ("Fight the Good Fight")
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To: ottbmare

“When we kneel, we are praying to God and we are asking Mary, the woman God chose to be the vessel in which He would begin to live as man, to join her prayers to ours.”

That is not always the case, my friend. Many prayers, sanctioned by the RCC, are not asking Mary to pray for the petitioner, they are asking Mary to grant out of her own store of grace the answer to some need.

THAT is prayer TO Mary.

She is the one answering the prayer. She is dispensing the goods.

There are even prayers to lesser saints asking them to intercede to Mary on behalf of the petitioner. That’s even more layers of mediation. When does it stop?

The disciples were clear. There is only ONE mediator between God and man.


141 posted on 11/28/2011 8:41:32 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer

Are you doubting my salvation as well?


142 posted on 11/28/2011 8:43:34 PM PST by Squidpup ("Fight the Good Fight")
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

I agree


143 posted on 11/28/2011 9:01:13 PM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to...otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: PetroniusMaximus

And were you aware that in some of the early fathers’s writings that the apostles were transported miraculously to Mary’s bedside as she died?


144 posted on 11/28/2011 9:08:21 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Squidpup
Your salvation is your business.

I just know that my sins are forgiven and forgotten because God is the one who forgives them.

 
enter the Table of Contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church here
1449 The formula of absolution used in the Latin Church expresses the essential elements of this sacrament: the Father of mercies is the source of all forgiveness. He effects the reconciliation of sinners through the Passover of his Son and the gift of his Spirit, through the prayer and ministry of the Church:
God, the Father of mercies,
through the death and the resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

It is sad that many are not interested in delving into the grace provided by the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Penance.

145 posted on 11/28/2011 9:11:18 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: raygunfan

Still no one has refuted the tenets of all the Scripture in the article.

Amd I’m still in one piece ready to post another post in the series tomorrow. LOL!


146 posted on 11/28/2011 9:14:33 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Country Gal

There are no non-Christians in heaven?


147 posted on 11/28/2011 9:40:49 PM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to...otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: Salvation

There have been plenty of refutes. You just don’t want to see them. I’ve posted numerous scriptures. Just the same tactic that the liberals use. Very sad.


148 posted on 11/28/2011 11:19:48 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: PetroniusMaximus
So you are saying that the Catholic church base it’s claim to authority on the Scripture?

Scriptures are one of the three legs of the stool we stand on. along with Sacred Tradition and the the Authority of the Magesterium. Did you actually read the verses I quoted to you, and are you going to admit that I supplied those exact same verses to YOU on at least 5 previous occasions?

149 posted on 11/29/2011 5:08:25 AM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
That’s very often the crux of catholic argument, “You non catholics are simply too STUPID to understand our position!” You do understand the difference between ignorant and stupid? I clearly used the word IGNORANT.

You realize that’s the same argument the Leftist and liberals use.

YOU realize that misquoting is also a tactic that leftists and liberals use. This is the second time in the same thread that YOU have done that to me.

150 posted on 11/29/2011 5:13:09 AM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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