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Following the Truth: A Biblical Roadmap To The One, True Church (Catholic or Open)
CatholicLane.com ^ | May 12, 2011 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 11/28/2011 8:12:49 AM PST by Salvation

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To: Country Gal
The last Mass that I was at (and it’s been the same for the prior masses, too btw), people would do some sort of curtsie thing before even sitting down. While doing so, they would look at a statue of Mary and make the sign of the Cross. Sure looked like bowing, or at least curtsying, to me

Pay attention I should only have to say this once. They were "bowing down" in the direction of the tabernacle. Catholics believe Jesus was being literal when He said "This is my body" That body is reserved in the Tabernacle. I am certain that you would agree that it is proper to bow down before Jesus correct?

151 posted on 11/29/2011 5:18:02 AM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: Salvation

Luther did not do the translation for the KJV


152 posted on 11/29/2011 5:33:44 AM PST by Nifster
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To: ottbmare

“I think you mean, “that’s what the Council of Trent taught,” don’t you? Because the Council took place in the mid-sixteenth century. Other councils, Vatican I and Vatican II, have taken place since and have clarified doctrinal points.”

Those doctrines have not been rescinded.


153 posted on 11/29/2011 5:34:18 AM PST by RoadTest (For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.)
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To: Country Gal

“Please quit saying that the non-Catholics are not posting scriptural references. We are. You are just refusing to acknowledge them.

Please answer me about the omission of the 2nd commandment. I’m curious as to how this passes the smell test for most Catholics.”

GOOD FOR YOU!

You’re telling the truth. They shuffled the Commandments like a peanut under three shells.


154 posted on 11/29/2011 5:36:23 AM PST by RoadTest (For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.)
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im not so concerned with our non-catholic brethern tossing out their scripture grenades for what the feel are some soft of proof texts...im asking why someone isnt taking the intial article and going down point by point to refute......good grief, even morons like obama have attempted to quote scripture, but when it lacks conherence, itz like watching the replies to this thread.....


155 posted on 11/29/2011 6:05:38 AM PST by raygunfan
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im not so concerned with our non-catholic brethern tossing out their scripture grenades for what the feel are some sort of proof texts...im asking why someone isnt taking the intial article and going down point by point to refute......good grief, even morons like obama have attempted to quote scripture, but when it lacks conherence, itz like watching the replies to this thread.....


156 posted on 11/29/2011 6:05:52 AM PST by raygunfan
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To: raygunfan

Thanks for the put-downs. I’ve not put anyone down. But I’ve been spoken down to often on this thread just because I disagree, and have posted evidence as to why.

Going to sarcasm and name calling (a.k.a. “morons”) doesn’t bode well for the Catholic position. But, from my experience, it’s the natural progression.


157 posted on 11/29/2011 6:18:27 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: verga

“Pay attention - I should only have to say this once”....

Yet another use of sarcasm to support the Catholic position.


158 posted on 11/29/2011 6:19:45 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: Country Gal

i called obama a moron.....where are you finding that name-calling directed at you?


159 posted on 11/29/2011 6:23:30 AM PST by raygunfan
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To: Country Gal

country, actually, the original article does an excellent job of supporting the catholic position, and my post still stands.....please, instead of grabbing the kjv or someother of the myriad of protestant versions of the bible, and grabbing quotes from whatever you feel supports your bible only, scripture only, my pastor is better than your pastor cause he agrees with my interpretation, and take the original article, and and go thru the scripture references there, and show them to be categorically wrong.....so far, no one has done that, and least of you....as you continue to play the victim card, as us big bad evil catholics attempt to hold you down....


160 posted on 11/29/2011 6:27:49 AM PST by raygunfan
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To: raygunfan

Ok - here you go.
1.This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Tm 2:3-4).

No disputes here. It’s a quantum leap to take this and say “This means the Catholic church”. No such inference is even suggested in this scripture.

2. But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tm 3:15).

Agreed again. Where does it say that the “Catholic Church” is this truth? Any church could say this. There is no evidence here supporting the Catholic position.

3. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming (Jn 16:13).

Agreed. He will guide to all truth. He’s guided me to my faith in a non-Catholic church.

4. If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Mt 18:15-18).

Agreed. Again - no support that “The Church” is “The Catholic Church”. The Church is the body of believers. No denomination is inferred.

5.And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:18-19).

Amen! Peter was the leader of the first church. No inference it that church being the Catholic church.

5. Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:1-5).

Our church baptizes people almost every Sunday. It occurs once people confess Jesus as Lord.

8. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him (Jn 6:48-66).

Communion is a very important part of our church. We do it every Sunday. In John 16:25 Jesus says “Up until now I’ve spoken to you figuratively. I will now speak to you plainly”. He said this AFTER the Lord’s supper.

If the bread and wine literally become the flesh and blood - AWESOME!!!! Let’s get it to a lab and do some DNA analysis. I’d love to know what color Jesus’ eyes were and just in general, more about what He looked like.

9. en he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you (Lk 22:19-20).

Same answer as #8.

9. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Wow! I’d sure love to see the Catholics I work with realize that spending half the day on personal phone calls and turning a blind eye to abuse doesn’t speak well of their “works”.

BTW - good luck with the name-calling. That should bring a lot of people into the Kingdom.


161 posted on 11/29/2011 6:29:56 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: raygunfan

When did I say “My pastor is better than your pastor...?”

The original article stated that “We are the true Church...” I believe that this was the ultimate “My way is better than your way....” comment


162 posted on 11/29/2011 6:33:17 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: Country Gal

your ‘refutation’ attempt was tepid at best , all you did was comment on them, you didnt refute anything....you didnt show any of what was posted to be wrong.

and your ignorance of history is showing....there were no other churches until luther kicked of the deformation.....there was one church, and it was catholic, what in the world do you think luther was breaking from? did he post his 95 points on the wall of ‘good book, jesus and me and scripture makes three’ independent bible only church somewhere?

yes, and i use sarcasm, as the truth of the article hasnt been refuted, you make comments on his points, wow, that is really in depth analysis on your part....come on....lame at best.....


163 posted on 11/29/2011 6:43:38 AM PST by raygunfan
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To: raygunfan

In no way is the Catholic position supported in the least in the article. Your “that was lame” comment was expected. It’s really all you have right now.

I support all Christian denominations and want everyone to find their way to Christ. I don’t believe that any one denomination works for everyone. No denomination has a monopoly on the Truth. But when one says “We are the only one”, well, I got to stand up to that.

I’m glad you’ve found peace and strength in the Catholic church. I have found it in a non-Catholic church. We are helping people recover from drug and alcohol addictions, we are feeding hundreds of families in our community through our food pantry, and we are helping people find hope and strength through our divorce care program. We are doing the work of Christ. I believe the Catholic church also does the work of Christ. We’re just not the ones saying “We’re the only source of Truth”, because we know we’re not.

In all humility, blessings to you and your family.


164 posted on 11/29/2011 7:03:36 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: RoadTest

It is not the present teaching of the Catholic Church that anyone who is not a Catholic necessarily goes to Hell.


165 posted on 11/29/2011 7:15:30 AM PST by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: Salvation

“Do you know the actual words of absolution?”

Exodus 33:19 would imply that they aren’t necessary.


166 posted on 11/29/2011 7:42:47 AM PST by antisocial (Texas SCV - Deo Vindice)
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To: Country Gal

The Gospel is not difficult and should not be made to be so. It doesn’t take a lot of words. It’s beauty is in its simplicity.

What you call “lame” because there aren’t a lot of words to it, is beautiful to those seeking after Him.

(BTW - I didn’t comment immediately on each point of the original article, simply because I knew it would not matter what I said. I would be called “lame” or “stupid”).

May the love of Christ penetrate your heart, and may you come to a deeper love of Him, so that it can’t help but overflow to those around you.


167 posted on 11/29/2011 8:07:43 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: verga

“You do understand the difference between ignorant and stupid? I clearly used the word IGNORANT.”

I was referring to the condescending tone of many Catholic’s arguments, of which, sadly, you have provided a notable example.

++++++++++

“YOU realize that misquoting is also a tactic that leftists and liberals use. This is the second time in the same thread that YOU have done that to me.”

Please, get over yourself! Rephrasing your statement is not misquoting. You’re acting oddly self important, as if your posts are some sort of divine pronouncements to be weighed, studied and quoted with citation.

And additionally, you keep referring to having dicussed the issue at hand with me, “on at least 5 previous occasions”. Congratulations on being so orgazined in you posting as to keep up with every post you have ever made! Quite frankly, I can’t remember ever discussing the issue with you a single time. Not that I deny we have discussed this, but I have posted too many times to remember every individal thread.

I will tell you this however, If we did discuss it in the past, you did not provide me a satisfactory answer as to the basis of claimed Catholic authority. If you did, I would no longer be using the argument. As to where you have provided a satisfactory answer on this thread... I will take that up in another post.


168 posted on 11/29/2011 8:29:01 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Country Gal
“Pay attention - I should only have to say this once”....

Yet another use of sarcasm to support the Catholic position

Serious question here.How many times exactly should a Catholic have to explain the basis for a Catholic belief to a non catholic?

Now how about acknowledging the point I made about the tabernacle containing the body, blood, soul, and divinity of God/ Jesus?

169 posted on 11/29/2011 8:31:59 AM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: Salvation

“And were you aware that in some of the early fathers’s writings that the apostles were transported miraculously to Mary’s bedside as she died?”

What bearing would that have on her novelty elevation to a status of a prayer-answering demigoddess in Catholic theology?


170 posted on 11/29/2011 8:32:28 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

“No it will be your local school district or Protestant church.”

No, it will be any church that preaches the message of the Bible without addition or subtraction.


171 posted on 11/29/2011 8:34:08 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Please, get over yourself! Rephrasing your statement is not misquoting.

It is exactly one of two things, either misquoting or lying. Words mean things and there is a huge difference between ignorant and stupid. Ignorant is saying that Catholics worship statues etc.., Stupid is repeating it after the Catholic belief/ position has been explained and clarified to you.

You’re acting oddly self important, as if your posts are some sort of divine pronouncements to be weighed, studied and quoted with citation.

No I am acting justifiably impatient with having to explain the same things over and over to people that will not even take the time to think about the Catholic position. My post are no where near divine pronouncements, but each and everyone of them is completely in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church which has divine origins.

172 posted on 11/29/2011 8:41:30 AM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: verga

Ok - I find it interesting that I’m continuously being told to respond to comments, yet no one responds to mine other than “that was lame”. But, if you insist on this....

I’ve never heard of the position of the tabernacle before, so your insinuation of “how many times must we explain this...” is unfounded. This is the first I’ve ever heard of it. It’s not located in the scriptures and is obviously something only Catholics know about.

People seem to be bowing in whatever direction the statue that they are bowing to is at.

Please respond to my comments about how the Lord’s anger rages at those who bow to idols throughout the Old Testament. I can give you verses if you want, although I’m sure they will be called “lame”.

But if you want them, I’ll give them to you. Be warned - there are a lot!


173 posted on 11/29/2011 8:56:31 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: verga

“It is exactly one of two things, either misquoting or lying.”

Wrong. To rephrase someone’s statement can clarify the original statement.

+++++++++

“Ignorant is saying that Catholics worship statues etc.., Stupid is repeating it after the Catholic belief/ position has been explained and clarified to you.”

Unless Catholics are either:
1. Misinformed about their own practice.
2. Deceitful about the exact nature of their practice.

+++++++++

“”No I am acting justifiably impatient...”

No one is requiring you to be here. You are participating of your own free will. If you are feeling impatient then blame yourself.

+++++++++++

“... each and everyone of them is completely in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church which has divine origins.”

Each and every one? Completely in line?

Come on!!! Get off your high horse!


174 posted on 11/29/2011 8:59:24 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: verga

And if it’s something you truly believe and hold to be dear, you should want to talk about it as many times as needed for someone to understand.

Simply stated, the fruits of the Spirit are:
love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

You can find this in Galatians 5:22-23.


175 posted on 11/29/2011 8:59:54 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: antisocial

You are quoting from the Old Testament.

Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant in the New Covenant of his Word.

I will pray for you on your last day of life.


176 posted on 11/29/2011 9:37:58 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Country Gal
Please respond to my comments about how the Lord’s anger rages at those who bow to idols throughout the Old Testament. I can give you verses if you want, although I’m sure they will be called “lame”.

I have never "bowed to a statue, I have however genuflected before the tabernacle that contains the Body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Speaking of the OT can you explain why God directed the people of Israel to create and look on the Bronze serpent in Numbers 21 4-9.

177 posted on 11/29/2011 10:51:19 AM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
“It is exactly one of two things, either misquoting or lying.”

Wrong. To rephrase someone’s statement can clarify the original statement.

When you change the meaning it is not rephrasing (That would be you being on a high horse) +++++++++ “Ignorant is saying that Catholics worship statues etc.., Stupid is repeating it after the Catholic belief/ position has been explained and clarified to you.”

Unless Catholics are either: 1. Misinformed about their own practice. 2. Deceitful about the exact nature of their practice.

SIGH! Please Go look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. +++++++++ “”No I am acting justifiably impatient...”

No one is requiring you to be here. You are participating of your own free will. If you are feeling impatient then blame yourself.

No I prefer to place the blame right where it belongs, on the willfully ignorant who refuse to even look at legitimate source material.

+++++++++++ “... each and everyone of them is completely in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church which has divine origins.”

Each and every one? Completely in line? Come on!!! Get off your high horse!

Prove me wrong. So far you have offered nothing of substance to refute a single claim I have made. And I am sitting on a normal size chair, I am not fond of high horses, it is to easy to fall off and look foolish (Hint Hint Hint)

178 posted on 11/29/2011 11:02:37 AM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: verga
I was HOPING you'd ask that! It's not wrong to create art. The problem is bowing to it. The Isrealites were never directed to bow to the bronze serpent, nor to the Ark! Where are the tabernacles in these photos located? (BTW - I already commented about the blood and body being symbolic. Jesus said he had been speaking figuratively in John 16:25. Can we agree on this?) Bowing Bowing to the Pope Bowing to Mary
179 posted on 11/29/2011 11:12:40 AM PST by Country Gal
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To: verga

“When you change the meaning it is not rephrasing”

You are grasping at straws. The two words you are quibbling about can have the SAME meaning...

Ignorant: “resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence”

Stupid: “lacking intelligence or reason”

-Merriam Websters

+++++++++++++++

SIGH! Please Go look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

As if that is the UNBIASED final authority!!!

That’s like asking the Soviet Ministry of Propaganda to list out the deficiencies of Marxism/Leninism. I’m sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church isn’t going to say “Catholics bowing and praying to Mary are engaging in idol worship”.

+++++++++++++++

“No I prefer to place the blame right where it belongs, on the willfully ignorant who refuse to even look at legitimate source material.”

Your call.

+++++++++++++++

“Prove me wrong.”

You claim that, “... each and everyone of them [your posts] is completely in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church which has divine origins.” is beyond laughable.

Does the Pope know that you are also infallible? He might want to check with you before he speaks of matter of faith and morals.


180 posted on 11/29/2011 11:24:25 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Salvation

I think we should all recall Paul’s wise words in 1 Corinthians 9:22 in these discussions - I try to find common ground with everyone that I might bring them to Christ.

On this Peter/Rock thing - Please do a word search on Rock, Cornerstone etc and see how many times it comes up in context as referring to Jesus, our Lord, or the Word, which is Jesus, (see John 1) and what he would accomplish for the world by his sacrifice and in his Kingdom. Jesus did not say it was finished on the cross and end 2,000 years of the old covenant and its sacrifices, plus hundreds of man made religious traditions/burdens, to create yet another burdensome religious hierarchy on the physical man, Peter. How would that even be possible or even desirable? Peter would physically die and his spirit join the Lord in Heaven. But Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, has been active here since Pentecost. The Church is STILL being built by this revelation.

What eactly did Peter confess? That Jesus is the Son of God. How are we saved? By believing in your heart and confessing that Jesus is the Son of God.(Romans 10) THAT IS HOW THE CHURCH IS BUILT. We are saved/recreated and join God’s family, by believing and confessing Jesus as our Savior. For 2,000 years, this is how GOD’S CHURCH has grown. We are not joing a social club or secret society, we are being spiritually reborn into God’s family.

People are being born again, filled with the Holy Spirt all over the world and in many different churches to this day. In fact, I just heard a wonderful testimony from a Nigerian Believer yesterday now studying here in the states. He was not recreated by Peter or a denomination, it was through faith in Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit recreating his spirit and providing for all his needs.

It was Peter’s declaration that Jesus was the anointed Son of God, that CONFESSION, is how the Church is built. And in that same verse, Jesus says that HE would build it, not Peter. Jesus is the head of the Church (big C - collection of Believers who trust in Jesus). The Believers are his body on earth. The power of binding and loosing is for all Believers, again not an institution and not just Peter. God is no respecter of persons. All Believers can enjoy all the spiritual gifts.

Start from verse 13 and notice that Jesus was asking them all who he was. The revelation that Peter received from God and confessed is the rock. Jesus never told him to become the first pope - that would be quite a stretch of this passage that even Peter seemingly disagreed with (see 1 Peter 2 and Acts 4). In fact, only a few verses later in Matthew 16, Jesus rebukes him for thinking like Satan and countering the will of God. Jesus tells him that he is looking at things from a human point of view - something we all must avoid.

A few passages referencing Jesus/Rock/cornerstone/Kingdom: (see also Daniel 2 - the supernatural rock that crushes the other kingdoms and fills the earth)

Peter preaching under the anointing of the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus referencing prophecy - He is ‘the stone which was regarded as worthless by you, the builders, which has become the head of the corner.’ Acts 4:11 WEB - This sermon would have been a perfect time to point out that he was the head of the church and the “rock”.

Because it is contained in Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, chosen, and precious: He who believes in him will not be disappointed.” 1 Peter 2:6 WEB, WEY, RSV, NIV - Again Peter writes about who, Jesus, the precious cornerstone who will not disappoint our faith. If Peter ever thought he was the foundation of a church, now would have been a good time to mention it. But no, he always pointed to Christ, His Savior and ours.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - Paul makes it clear, Jesus is the foundation, not Paul, not Peter, not any man or institution other than Jesus. Tradition, philosophy, dogma have no part of the foundation of God’s Church.

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV - Paul discussing and comparing the children of Israel to his new children under the New Covenant. Note - Spiritual rock = Christ, not Peter or even Paul. We are ambassadors of Christ in a fallen world. Just like the Jews we need a supernatural source and supply that can only come from Jesus.

“There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. ... There is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. - 1 Samuel 2:2 - Hannah’s prayer of praise is a beautiful witness.

“The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior! ... “The LORD lives! Praise to my Rock! May God, the Rock of my salvation, be exalted! 2 Samuel 47 - David praising God his rock. Coincidence?

The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. - Psalm 18:2 - Another witness.

Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. ... Be my rock of safety where I can always hide. Psalm 71:3 Yet another witness comparing the Lord to a rock. Remember, Jesus came to FULFILL the law, so everything spoken of him was accomplished by and through him.

He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that... - Luke 6:48 see also Matthew 7:24. The Word (Jesus) is that solid foundation. When the floods come against the house built on the Rock (Jesus) it will NOT fall.

And I’m quoting a much longer passage because it is especially relevant:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.” Romans 9:30-33 NIV - Our righteousness, or right standing with God, is based solely on our faith in Jesus. The simplicity of the Gospel is still a stumbling block for far too many people.

I encourage you to get out your Bible and read the verses above in context, starting with Matthew 16 where the Peter/Rock thing starts. Ask God for wisdom and understanding - He gives it willingly to those searching for the Truth. I have not turned to any denomination or elders or deacons, I have leaned heavily on God’s Word for everything I have written. I have often found that if you pick up the Bible and read it like you have never read it before, it comes alive in your spirit.

If time permits and this thread continues, I will address some of the other points from the source article.


181 posted on 11/29/2011 12:44:57 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz

Beautifully said!

I love Jesus so much. I’m so glad He’s my Rock!


182 posted on 11/29/2011 12:58:45 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Country Gal
You are trying to discuss two separate areas of Catholic Doctrine.

1) Jesus told us clearly in the synoptics that the bread and wine become his literal body, blood, soul, and divinity. This is not a metaphor and it is not figurative.

Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." Joh 6:34 They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."

Joh 6:48 I am the bread of life.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. Joh 6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Joh 6:56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. Joh 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

How much more literal do you want Jesus to be? Now if the tabernacle does contain the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus shouldn't we bow down before it? this is the second time I am asking yo a direct yes or no question, please answer with either a yes or no.

Your second point 2) You keep combing bowing and worshiping. The bowing is not the issue, rather it is the worshiping. God commanded the construction of the Ark of the covenant and the bronze serpent as well as all of the statuary around the Ark. the Jewish people bowed down before this on a regular basis. The Bronze serpent was only destroyed when the Jewish people began to worship it.

183 posted on 11/29/2011 12:59:09 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
“When you change the meaning it is not rephrasing”

You are grasping at straws. The two words you are quibbling about can have the SAME meaning... Ignorant: “resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence” Stupid: “lacking intelligence or reason” -Merriam Websters

Sure and my aunt CAN become by uncle after and addadictomy. Your example is ridiculous, I chose the word ignorant for a reason, you want to quote me then quote me there is no need to rephrase. +++++++++++++++ SIGH! Please Go look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

As if that is the UNBIASED final authorityThat’s like asking the Soviet Ministry of Propaganda to list out the deficiencies of Marxism/Leninism. I’m sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church isn’t going to say “Catholics bowing and praying to Mary are engaging in idol worship”.!!! On what Catholic believe and practice I would have to say YES. Who/What should we go to? If I want to know what Lutherans believe I go to Luther's Catechism, If I want to know what Calvin taught I go to the Penceses. +++++++++++++++

“Prove me wrong.” You claim that, “... each and everyone of them [your posts] is completely in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church which has divine origins.” is beyond laughable. Does the Pope know that you are also infallible? He might want to check with you before he speaks of matter of faith and morals.Could you show me where I said infallible, Again words have meaning. I said my posts were completely in line with Catholic teaching. That does not mean infallible, that means aligned, in unity with, but you have not shown yet where my posts were not in line with Catholic Doctrine. Please post a single example of where my posts are not in line, I will gladly apologize and correct myself.

184 posted on 11/29/2011 1:11:40 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: verga

The theme of John 6 is belief in Jesus Christ. Jesus most certainly used figurative language to explain his meaning. He wanted to see who truly believed in Him and was testing His followers who were only interested in miracles. He chose to use eating and drinking as a metaphor because he was speaking to those who just witnessed the miracle of feeding the 5 thousand. He said “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” He clearly wasn’t talking about physical hunger and physical thirst, because Christians are still physically hungry and thirsty. Instead, he meant those that partake in the bread of life are true believers.

He also said,”Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you.” He then told them “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” However, those followers demanded more signs and didn’t believe.

He knew that some didn’t truly believe as seen in verses 63-64: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus deliberately used a difficult metaphor to see if these followers were really committed to Him. He knew that many would walk away and said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

As expected many followers left after his metaphor of eating His flesh and blood, but his disciples (except for Judas Iscariot) were devoted to Him and remained. Peter said, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


185 posted on 11/29/2011 1:35:03 PM PST by Turtlepower
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To: verga

Yes, I will bow to Jesus when I meet him face to face. He is worthy of all of my praise.

I will not, however, bow to anything created on this earth. Please answer my question about where are the tabernacles located in my photos?

Jesus wasn’t meaning to be literal, as he stated in John 16:25. Which I’ve said several times.
Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

We will have to agree to disagree. I respect your beliefs and I know that they bring you peace. They are not my beliefs. My beliefs bring me peace. I know my denomination is not the “one true” church and I would never state that. It would be nice if you could also state the same. I don’t believe that you can or will, but that’s ok. Jesus is Lord and I live my life for His glory, and it’s not about a denomination.

May God richly bless you and your family.


186 posted on 11/29/2011 2:17:10 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Turtlepower
He knew that some didn’t truly believe as seen in verses 63-64: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus deliberately used a difficult metaphor to see if these followers were really committed to Him. He knew that many would walk away and said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus said my body is real food my blood is real drink. There is no room for equivocation, REAL is REAL. Second if you combine this with the synoptics; In the original Greek he is saying "this is the Body which is me/ Mine. Again no equivocation.

187 posted on 11/29/2011 4:04:27 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: Country Gal
Yes, I will bow to Jesus when I meet him face to face. He is worthy of all of my praise.

And Catholics believe He is in the Tabernacle.

I will not, however, bow to anything created on this earth. Please answer my question about where are the tabernacles located in my photos?

There is no Tabernacle, and they are not worshiping. It may appear that way,but if you ask them they will tell you in all sincerity that they are not. Just as I have said I am not. Are you going to tell me that you know my heart?

Jesus wasn’t meaning to be literal, as he stated in John 16:25. Which I’ve said several times. Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Then why did he say He say His body was REAL food and His Blood REAL drink?

We will have to agree to disagree. I respect your beliefs and I know that they bring you peace. They are not my beliefs. My beliefs bring me peace. I know my denomination is not the “one true” church and I would never state that. It would be nice if you could also state the same. I don’t believe that you can or will, but that’s ok. Jesus is Lord and I live my life for His glory, and it’s not about a denomination.For me to deny that the Catholic Churchis the One true Church would be to Deny Jesus. When Jesus Spoke to Saul/Paul He asked Why do youn Persecute ME?

May God richly bless you and your family. And you and yours as well.

188 posted on 11/29/2011 4:12:33 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: verga

The usage of the phrase “My body is real (or true) food and my blood is real (or true) drink” is still metaphorical. The entire context of John 6 makes it clear that Jesus was speaking of spiritual nourishment, which lasts for eternity. He did not mean to physicaly eat and drink Him.

He means that only He is the true source of spiritual nourishment. If one partakes, which means believes, in Him (The Bread of Life) then they will never be SPIRITUALLY hungry or SPIRITUALLY thirsty. He wasn’t referring to the act of physically eating and drinking.


189 posted on 11/29/2011 5:37:58 PM PST by Turtlepower
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To: verga

The Catholic position of the literal blood and flesh would be so easy to prove. Get it to a legitimate lab and do DNA analysis. Let’s find out what Jesus looked like. I would convert today if the Catholic church could do this.

To you, bowing may not be worshipping, but to God it is. He makes it very clear.

Exodus 20:
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


190 posted on 11/29/2011 5:54:01 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Country Gal

BTW - Idolatry is anything we put before God. It could be our jobs, our money, our possessions, or our denominations.

Anything that is more important to us than our continuous seeking of a deeper relationship with Christ.


191 posted on 11/29/2011 6:19:25 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Country Gal; Turtlepower
Proof that the Holy Eucharist is real blood, real flesh -- Eucharistic Miracles. They will change your mind on this subject.

The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, Italy (The Body and Blood of Christ) [Catholic Caucus]
Do You Believe in Eucharistic Miracles?
Eucharistic Miracle at St. Stephen's in New Boston MI.(Catholic Caucas)
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES

[CATHOLIC CAUCUS]'Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity': The Miracle and Gift of the Most Holy Eucharist
Looking After a Eucharistic Miracle (Franciscan Recounts His Special Mission in Siena)
Eucharistic Miracle: 2009?
Possible Eucharistic Miracle in Poland
The Eucharistic Miracles(Catholic Caucus)
Vatican display exhibits eucharistic miracles
Eucharistic Miracle - Bolsena-Orvieto, Italy
Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano -Verifies Authenticity of the Phenomenon
BLOOD TYPE FOUND IN ICONS IS SAME AS IN SHROUD OF TURIN AND 'LANCIANO MIRACLE'
Eucharistic Miracle: Lanciano,Italy-8th Century A.D.

192 posted on 11/29/2011 6:31:54 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Country Gal; All

**I will not, however, bow to anything created on this earth.**

And who do you think created everything on this earth?

Haven’t you heard the joke yet about the scientist wanting to challenge God and creat a human? When the scientist dipped his hand down into the dirt, God said, “Create your own dirt!”

End of challenge!

Even the hosts of wheat come from God — through human hands, but that does not mean they are corrupted.


193 posted on 11/29/2011 6:36:06 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

***
“No it will be your local school district or Protestant church.”

No, it will be any church that preaches the message of the Bible without addition or subtraction.
***

And the Protestants have subtracted books from the Bible.


194 posted on 11/29/2011 6:38:28 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: Salvation

It’s not me saying it. It’s in the 10 Commandments.


195 posted on 11/29/2011 6:44:05 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Salvation

Not sure where my post went, but I’ll take a chance on double-posting.

I know of someone who was healed after taking Communion - in a non-denominational church. There’s great power in Communion and we take it very seriously.

May you all sleep peacefully and dwell in safety.


196 posted on 11/29/2011 6:47:26 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Country Gal

Jesus used a lot of material objects to describe Himself—He said, “I am the Light.” “I am the Door.” “I am the Shepherd.”

But He never said, “That light is Me.” “That door is Me.” “That shepherd is Me.”

However, He did say, “That Bread is Me. That Wine is Me.”

You either believe Christ or you think he is a liar.

Your choice.


197 posted on 11/29/2011 6:49:10 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: Salvation

In the second link it refers to “dogs” - that Communion could not be taken by the dogs.

Are non-Catholics “dogs” to you?

Perhaps this is where the name-calling comes from.


198 posted on 11/29/2011 6:49:54 PM PST by Country Gal
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To: Salvation
It's clear from the context of John 6 that Jesus was speaking of spiritual and not physical nourishment. Assuming that Jesus meant to literally eat his body and drink his blood is the same mistake that Nicodemus made as described in John 3. In that chapter Jesus used another term that typically has a physical connotation - birth. Nicodemus thought that Jesus was referring to a physical rebirth, but Jesus meant a spiritual rebirth.

In the same way, Jesus was not referring to the physical act of eating and drinking in John 6. Instead, he used the metaphor of eating and drinking to mean spiritual sustenance. Jesus taught that only He can provide everlasting, spiritual nourishment.

199 posted on 11/29/2011 6:52:32 PM PST by Turtlepower
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

I believe in Jesus with all my heart. You don’t know my heart. When He says He’s been speaking figuratively up until now, I believe Him. When He says that bowing to graven images upsets Him, I believe Him.

Jesus is Lord. That’s the most important thing. May His peace indwell all of us.


200 posted on 11/29/2011 6:53:56 PM PST by Country Gal
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