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In the Spirit: Can a Catholic also be a liberal?
Wisconsin State Journal ^ | November 27, 2011 | DOUG ERICKSON

Posted on 11/29/2011 4:33:50 AM PST by jacknhoo

To certain Catholics, Peter Kreeft is a rock star.

That was evident Nov. 18, when nearly 500 people filled an auditorium at the Bishop O'Connor Center in Madison to hear him talk.

Kreeft, a Catholic author and Boston College philosophy professor, had been asked by the Catholic Diocese of Madison to speak on whether "a Catholic can be a liberal." Kreeft called it "a very challenging question" and said he'd never spoken on it before.

Kreeft is a strong defender of the Catholic Church against what some people call "modernists" or, more derisively, "cafeteria Catholics," people who pick and choose which church teachings to follow.

There is no middle ground to Kreeft. It would be silly and redundant to him, for instance, to call someone a "pro-life Catholic." You cannot be anything but against abortion to be a Catholic, Kreeft said.

"To be a Catholic is to take the whole deal," he told the crowd.

Kreeft said several definitions of a liberal can and should fit Catholics, including "someone who is generous and unselfish" and "someone who highly values liberty and freedom."

On abortion, Kreeft contended Catholics are the "true liberals," because a liberal wants to extend liberty to the oppressed, and "the unborn are the most oppressed," he said.

Yet, in the political realm, the term liberal has been hijacked by abortion rights activists, Kreeft said. "A Catholic cannot be today what is called a liberal about abortion. That's obvious. That's a ‘duh.'"

Kreeft mentioned other issues, such as homosexual marriage and euthanasia, that he said Catholics cannot take politically liberal positions on, yet he focused most on abortion. Coming in for the most criticism were elected officials who call themselves Catholic yet support abortion rights.

During the Q&A, an audience member brought up the Kennedy political dynasty and how a group of leading theologians and Catholic college professors had met with Kennedy family members in the mid-1960s and came up with a way for Catholic politicians to support a pro-abortion rights platform with clear consciences.

Kreeft said these Catholic advisers "told the Kennedys how they could get away with murder." Kreeft then made one of his boldest comments of the evening, suggesting the theologians who first convinced Democratic politicians they could support abortion rights and remain Catholic did more damage to the Catholic Church than pedophile priests.

"These were wicked people. These were dishonest people. These were people who, frankly, loved power more than they loved God," Kreeft said. "Sorry, that's just the way it is. In fact, I'd say these were even worse than the child molesters — though the immediate damage they did was not as obvious — because they did it deliberately, it wasn't a sin of weakness. Sins of power are worse than sins of weakness. Cold, calculating sins — that's straight from the devil."

A few minutes later, the talk over, the crowd gave him a standing ovation.


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: abortion; excommunicate; romancatholic; scandal; sexabuse
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First, I dislike how articles pose, as a question, an undeniable fact.

Second, Kudos to Kreeft.

Third:

Canon Law: Anyone having an abortion or knowingly participating in an abortion is automatically excommunication.

Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Can. 1329 §2 In the case of a latae sententiae penalty attached to an offense, accomplices, even though not mentioned in the law or precept, incur the same penalty if, without their assistance, the crime would not have been committed, and if the penalty is of such a nature as to be able to affect them; otherwise, they can be punished with ferendae sententiae penalties.

Exceptions exist (Canons 1322-1325, 1328).

If congregations are taught correctly, from the pulpit or in writings of the bishop, a Catholic's ignorance would not be an excuse.

A bishop is bound to instruct his people on matters of faith and morals.

To vote for anyone who is pro abortion (this includes pro-choice...no splitting hairs) is a mortal sin, an excommunicatable offense.

To give Holy Communion to a person knowing that he or she is in a state of mortal sin subjects the Eucharistic minister, whether they be a priest or not, to latae sententiae excommunication for desecration of the Holy Eucharist.

Regarding this desecration:

Can. 1367 One who throws away the consecrated species or, for a sacrilegious purpose, takes them away or keeps them, incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; a cleric, moreover, may be punished with some other penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state (too bad so many Bishops, priests, deacons, etc, let their light be dimmed).

Giving Jesus to a publicly known grave sinner is the cause of grave scandal (Just think of all the so-called Catholic politicians and those who voted for them and Obama...all excommunicated - a great loss).

1 posted on 11/29/2011 4:33:57 AM PST by jacknhoo
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To: jacknhoo

According to Nacy Pelosi, Jesus was right? /s =.=


2 posted on 11/29/2011 4:35:46 AM PST by cranked
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To: cranked

As a Catholic, I am firmly in the camp of NO ABORTIONS EVER. How can any Christian say that Jesus would support this mortal sin. He turned over tables at the temple. What would he have done or said at an abortion mill?


3 posted on 11/29/2011 4:42:14 AM PST by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: jacknhoo

Liberals cant be true Catholics because so much of their ideology ie abortion and gay rights goes directly agaisnt Church teachings. Of course that doesn’t stop plenty of so called Catholics from voting Democrat or being liberal.


4 posted on 11/29/2011 4:43:47 AM PST by erod (Unlike the President I am a true Chicagoan.)
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To: jacknhoo

As far the political definitions no they can’t. They can claim to be, and they certainly do in great numbers, but the Catholic faith is very clear as far as homosexuality and abortion are concerned, something they choose to refuse to believe.

Churches in the UK for example are closing at an alarming rate because the idiots that run the church have watered it down.

The result, it just becomes a rather poor excuse for a church as it has abandoned everything the church was built upon.


5 posted on 11/29/2011 4:45:10 AM PST by UKrepublican
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To: Donnafrflorida

I named one, besides, there are a host more alleged cafeteria catholics who do....especially at Notre Dame.... /s =.=


6 posted on 11/29/2011 4:54:18 AM PST by cranked
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To: jacknhoo

I can’t see how ANY Christian can even be democrat, much less liberal.

I am, of course, excluding the unitarians, THEY probably see that Jesus wants you to become an abortionist. </ 1/2 sarc>


7 posted on 11/29/2011 4:57:51 AM PST by ConservativeChris
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To: UKrepublican

To generalize this a bit....

To be a Catholic you must be a Christian. To be a Christian you MUST be a follower of Christ, that is, you must try your best to obey His commandments, to seek those things He desires and shun those things He disapproves of.

In all reality these days to be a liberal (democrat. The terms are interchangeable) you must be pro abportion, pro homosexual “rights”, anti family and anti religious liberty.

So we are faced with an unresolvable conflict. Democrats stand fro everything that Christ stands against. And democrats stand against everything that Christ stands for.

You cannot be a Christian and a democrat.

If someone claims they are a Christian and a democrat they are lying. So which one are they really? Christianity says “Thou shalt not lie”. Democrats say you can lie if you can get away with it (Reference clinton).

So obviously someone who states they are Christian and democrat is a democrat, a member of the party of liars and the child of the father of liars.

(And people sometimes wonder why I refuse to associate with democrats in any way)


8 posted on 11/29/2011 4:59:53 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: jacknhoo

Every single catholic Ive ever met or known was a liberal.just sayin,,


9 posted on 11/29/2011 5:06:12 AM PST by Craftmore
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To: Craftmore

Gee, what a shame that you’ve not met the rest of us.

;-)


10 posted on 11/29/2011 5:15:25 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Craftmore

Well, we’ll have to meet someday and change that. That wouldn’t surprise me, 53% of Catholics voted for Obama. that’s a lot of people. He could never have won without the Catholic vote - no wonder God is so angry with this nation.


11 posted on 11/29/2011 5:15:34 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: jacknhoo
Kreeft then made one of his boldest comments of the evening, suggesting the theologians who first convinced Democratic politicians they could support abortion rights and remain Catholic did more damage to the Catholic Church than pedophile priests.

I submit that this isn't, or shoudn't be, "bold". It should be undeniable and obvious, for two reasons.

One, abortion is a more serious sin than molestation. Abortion's victims are dead, practically 100% of the time; that's the whole point of the "procedure". It's murder.

Two, justifying and defending a serious sin, and promoting it as a good, is always much more seriously sinful than merely committing it and knowing you're doing evil. The first (a) gives greater scandal; and (b) immunizes people against repentance.

12 posted on 11/29/2011 5:17:29 AM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: jacknhoo

Can a Catholic relentlessly indulge in and encourage jealousy, envy, covetousness, bitterness and theft? I guess I will have to leave that one to the theologians.


13 posted on 11/29/2011 5:21:45 AM PST by all the best (`~!)
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To: jacknhoo

Many catholics I know are very class-warfare.


14 posted on 11/29/2011 5:29:55 AM PST by Thorliveshere
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To: Campion
>> gives greater scandal

Before the "antis" wake up and jump on me, I should point out that I'm using "scandal" in the technical sense. A "scandal" (from the Gk word for "stumbling-block") is something that encourages or tempts innocent people to sin. It's more-or-less tautological that you can't scandalize more effectively than actually explicitly to try to convince people that a sin isn't really a sin.

15 posted on 11/29/2011 5:36:47 AM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: jacknhoo

As long as they don’t support pro-abort candidates!


16 posted on 11/29/2011 5:44:31 AM PST by G Larry ("I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his Character.")
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To: jacknhoo
Kreeft, a Catholic author and Boston College philosophy professor, had been asked by the Catholic Diocese of Madison to speak on whether "a Catholic can be a liberal." Kreeft called it "a very challenging question" and said he'd never spoken on it before.

Given the USCCB's support of illegal immigration, universal healthcare, and union organizing, and the Pope's support of their doing so, I think the better question to ask is "Can a Catholic also be a conservative?"

17 posted on 11/29/2011 5:58:35 AM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: John O
(And people sometimes wonder why I refuse to associate with democrats in any way)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm with you. Democrats ( Marxists really) are either too evil or too stupid to be a friend. For me, it was the 2000 Florida recount. It was then that I realized that they were not people of good will.

18 posted on 11/29/2011 5:59:29 AM PST by wintertime (I am a Constitutional Restorationist!!! Yes!)
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To: jacknhoo

Can you be Catholic and American?

From Matthew 22:36-38:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.

Note, worship of God is a greater commandment than “thou shalt not kill”.

Yet, in the US, there is freedom of religion. You can be one of those pagan wiccan types if you like here.

Do you expect your Catholic political leaders to change the constitution to enforce worship of God?

Should they be excommunicated if they support freedom of religion?


19 posted on 11/29/2011 6:03:02 AM PST by fruser1
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To: Craftmore

Every single Catholic I’ve ever met or known was a liberal, just saying...”

Hi! I’m momtothree. I’m Catholic and don’t have a liberal bone in my body. Good to meet you. If you would like, I could introduce you to some other FReeper Catholics who aren’t liberal as well.


20 posted on 11/29/2011 6:26:02 AM PST by momtothree
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To: jacknhoo
Pius IX settled this in 1864 with Syllabus Errorum.
21 posted on 11/29/2011 6:26:17 AM PST by jtal (Runnin' a World in Need with White Folks' Greed - since 1492)
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To: Craftmore

Every single Catholic I’ve ever met or known was a liberal, just saying...”

Hi! I’m momtothree. I’m Catholic and don’t have a liberal bone in my body. Good to meet you. If you would like, I could introduce you to some other FReeper Catholics who aren’t liberal as well.


22 posted on 11/29/2011 6:26:28 AM PST by momtothree
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To: Craftmore
Every single catholic Ive ever met or known was a liberal.

Where do you live? Massachusetts?

23 posted on 11/29/2011 6:29:27 AM PST by airborne (Paratroopers! Good to the last drop!)
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To: Craftmore

yeah I have to agree that the vast majority of the ones I met and was around were Democrats too. However, I think that is so in cities, in rural areas, the opposite.


24 posted on 11/29/2011 6:34:36 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: jacknhoo
53% of Catholics voted for Obama.

The fruit of Vatican II.

In fairness, practicing Catholics (weekly mass attenders) was the oyer way around. But even 40% of practicing Catholics voting for an anti-Christ is deeply disturbing.

I'd like to know the voting percentages of those attending weekly Tridentine rite mass.

25 posted on 11/29/2011 6:35:31 AM PST by jtal (Runnin' a World in Need with White Folks' Greed - since 1492)
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To: fruser1
...love the Lord your God.....
Should they be excommunicated if they support freedom of religion?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Love is a condition of the mind and heart. It can't be measured objectively in any manner.

As with love, “worship” is also a condition of the mind, heart, and spirit. There are many examples, both historical and contemporary, of government using force to make people go through the physical motions of religious practice, but physical movement is not worship.

How do you propose that “love” or “worship” be measured? Would you suggest that the citizen's heart and mind be cut out so that the government could search the tissue mass for “love” and “worship”?

( Just wondering.)

Now I have treated your comment with respect. Hopefully, you are not a bitter atheist or agnostic. Hopefully you are not a poster who is merely here to kick the anthill hoping to see the ants run around like crazy. Atheists and agnostics who are comfortable in their state of belief don't do that.

26 posted on 11/29/2011 6:41:37 AM PST by wintertime (I am a Constitutional Restorationist!!! Yes!)
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To: Alex Murphy

good point, I don’t agree with the stance on illegal immigration, it is not Biblical either. you are supposed to obey the laws, as long as they are Biblical.

I personally think the US already practiced universal healthcare, because in reality, no one was denied. It irks me when people who can afford insurance just don’t. I also believe in universal healthcare IF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT WITHOUT TAXES AND IN A WAY THAT MAKES ECONOMIC SENSE. There has to be a way. Obamacare ain’t it.

Unions make sense obviously in the mining industry, and I would say in the over the road trucking industry because the employers/owners are focused on the bottom line and skimp on taking care of the employees. But as far as anywhere else, no. Formerly, in textiles, employing children, having fibers being inhaled, yes, you needed unions. As far as electricians, plumbers, construction, never heard of abusive employers there, don’t need unions.


27 posted on 11/29/2011 6:42:51 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Alex Murphy

USCCB does not decide theology. They are just a bunch of (mostly) liberals and Commie Grannies trying to make the US church something different from Rome.
Now that Dolan is leading, watch them change for the better.

Kreeft speaks and writes boldly, and this needs to be said loudly and often. Kudos to him for speaking the Truth.


28 posted on 11/29/2011 6:48:03 AM PST by bboop (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? St. Augustine)
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To: momtothree

Yes, I am also a Catholic conservative, ‘a bit to the right of Attila the Hun.’ Plenty of us out here.


29 posted on 11/29/2011 6:49:05 AM PST by bboop (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? St. Augustine)
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To: jacknhoo

The lack of public discipline as concerns the abortion issue is a scandal that dwarfs the homosexualist priest scandal.

Freegards


30 posted on 11/29/2011 6:53:14 AM PST by Ransomed
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To: jacknhoo

Catholicism created many liberal values, but did so on religious, not philosophical grounds. This is a critically important distinction, because both compromises and absolutes are wildly different between the two.

From Catholicism’s point of view, it does such things because it is required or forbidden to by heaven, or it is general alignment with, or general conflict with, concepts promulgated in heaven.

This determines their absolutes, what is required and what is forbidden; but it also determines what actions or omissions are circumstantial and judgmental.

But from philosophical liberalism’s point of view, it is solely based on the desires of the individual, for their own gratifications, aversions, and prejudices. Though they often assign what they personally want to what all mankind wants.

Unfortunately, Catholics are just as prone as everyone else to mental illness, neurosis, fanaticism, cynicism, and the deadly sins as well. Which means that philosophical liberalism appeals to them far more than religious values, as they become self-centered, and embrace the “cafeteria Catholic” point of view.

So, to rephrase the question, “Could a liberal ever embrace Catholicism?”, which amounts to “Can a man ever be redeemed?” The answer to which is an obvious “yes, but not always.”


31 posted on 11/29/2011 7:05:10 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: wintertime

“Hopefully, you are not ...”

I post these questions rhetorically. I’m actually Catholic and conservative.

I threw those out there because I disagree stereotypical arguments, i.e., if you are in this group, you must think this way, etc..

Same goes for Catholicism and liberalism.

Even though I am against abortion, I can understand how a Catholic politician could vote to allow its legality.

I’ve heard it asked many times, “how can a Catholic support legalized abortion?”

Well, I can understand that. I pose the scenario of the First Commandment and Freedom of Religion as an analogy.

In the same sense, I think it is quite possible for someone to be liberal and Catholic.

To explain this, you’d need a liberal though, which I am not.

I can only imagine the argument that a particular individual’s belief on a given assortment of issues covers a range of values. I.e., if liberals stand for 10 “talking points” then two individuals identifying themselves as a liberal would likely have different results if tested as to, on a scale of 1 to 10, how strongly they agreed with the talking points.

I guess my bottom line is that the question of liberalism/catholicism, is a nonsensical one. The reality is that people have a variety of beliefs to varying degrees.

So maybe you could say my first post was “kicking the anthil”, but I put it to you that the question leading this thread is what is kicking the anthill.

Hope this makes sense. I was typing fast.


32 posted on 11/29/2011 7:08:22 AM PST by fruser1
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To: bboop

That’ why I love FR! It is very possible that this person never met a conservative Catholic before. I have the feeling that he/she will be on a first name basis by the end of the day. “Wow... they really DO exist. I thought that was just a fairy tale!” LOL!!!


33 posted on 11/29/2011 7:09:31 AM PST by momtothree
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To: Donnafrflorida

My sister in law is a devout Catholic. I mean really devout. I asked her how she could vote for Obama when he was for late term abortions, the kind where the Dr takes a knife and severs the baby’s spinal cord.

She replied, even though she was against abortion, she was against war, and killing of people in other countries. For her, she wanted the war to end and that is why she voted for Obama.

That is their logic.


34 posted on 11/29/2011 7:19:26 AM PST by Engedi (Hec)
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To: Engedi
she wanted the war to end and that is why she voted for Obama.

She did not get what she wanted. Likewise, Republican presidents do not really work to end abortion.

35 posted on 11/29/2011 7:24:26 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Craftmore
Well...I am not surprised that you may not have met any conservative Catholics. What is the most discouraging is that 49% of Catholics who attend Mass weekly would vote for a man who voted **three** times to allow abortion surviving babies to die in a cold, stainless steel, hospital utility sink. ( Unbelievable!)

Protestants who voted for Obama will need to stand before God as well and account for their behavior.

The following is from a Catholic publication.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/churchgoing_catholics_chose_mccain_over_obama/

Washington D.C., Nov 7, 2008 / 03:14 am (CNA).- Exit polls are reporting that more weekly churchgoing Catholics voted for John McCain than for President-elect Barack Obama, slightly favoring McCain by 50 percent to 49 percent.

Those who attend Mass on a weekly basis comprised 46 percent of the overall Catholic vote, while 54 percent of Catholics surveyed said they attend less than weekly. Among infrequent Mass goers, Obama was favored 58 to 40 percent.

The fact that practicing Catholics supported McCain over Obama runs contrary to assertions made by Fr. Thomas Reese S.J. and other commentators who used the category of Catholics who attend Mass less than weekly to suggest that the teaching of Catholic bishops was ignored by the faithful.

36 posted on 11/29/2011 7:30:01 AM PST by wintertime (I am a Constitutional Restorationist!!! Yes!)
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To: fruser1
I'll play the game of “Counting the Angels Who Dance on the Head of a Pin” some other day.
37 posted on 11/29/2011 7:32:12 AM PST by wintertime (I am a Constitutional Restorationist!!! Yes!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Exactly the reason I have been unable to “cross the Tiber” since leaving the Episcopal “church”. A church that endorses policies that will destroy my nation is not worthy of my devotion.


38 posted on 11/29/2011 7:36:54 AM PST by Zippo44 (Liberal: another word for poltroon.)
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To: jtal

Well, I can’t speak for everyone who attends the TLM I attend, but of those I know personally (at least 100), NOT ONE is a liberal in any way. I wish I could say the same for all the N.O. Catholics I know. Still...even most N.O. Catholics of my acquaintance are quite conservative. Birds of a feather, I guess; I associate with those who think as I do.

That said, in November of 2008, my priest had this to say about Obama’s election: “Our country has suffered a catastrophe this week,” and then went on to give a homily that was truly astonishing in its intensity. I am only sorry I don’t have it on tape. It was both frightening and awe-inspiring.

Regards,


39 posted on 11/29/2011 7:40:12 AM PST by VermiciousKnid (Sic narro nos totus!)
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To: Engedi
She replied, even though she was against abortion, she was against war, and killing of people in other countries.

War can be morally justifiable. It's not a Catholic position to be "against war" in absolutely all circumstances. Whether a particular war is morally justifiable can be arguable, of course.

Abortion -- a direct, intended, mortal attack on an innocent child -- is never morally justifiable.

40 posted on 11/29/2011 7:44:53 AM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: jacknhoo

I see the Vatican doing a LOT of reining-in of a number of Catholics who claim to be Catholic and liberal as well.


41 posted on 11/29/2011 7:53:44 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: VermiciousKnid

“Well, I can’t speak for everyone who attends the TLM I attend, but of those I know personally (at least 100), NOT ONE is a liberal in any way. I wish I could say the same for all the N.O. Catholics I know. Still...even most N.O. Catholics of my acquaintance are quite conservative. Birds of a feather, I guess; I associate with those who think as I do.”

I sense also as well those who attend the NO mass, most I know, are center-right. The ones who are CINOS, are more often than not, those “C and E” Catholics.


42 posted on 11/29/2011 8:07:14 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Alex Murphy


"... and the Pope's support of their doing so,.."

How do you read the Pope's support for the USCCB's Marxist acts into that linked article?


43 posted on 11/29/2011 8:33:33 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: Alex Murphy


"... and the Pope's support of their doing so,.."

How do you read the Pope's support for the USCCB's Marxist acts into that article?


44 posted on 11/29/2011 8:41:30 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: VermiciousKnid
That said, in November of 2008, my priest had this to say about Obama’s election: “Our country has suffered a catastrophe this week,” and then went on to give a homily that was truly astonishing in its intensity. I am only sorry I don’t have it on tape. It was both frightening and awe-inspiring.

Oh to have heard a sermon like that at my NO parish. My pastor made his feelings known about 0, but in a much more milquetoast, indirect, and subdued way. And this was at one of the more conservative parishes in the diocese.

By contrast, the weekend of September 11, my NO pastor gave a sermon on forgiving our enemies. Meanwhile, at the TLM I attendted that week, the priest gave a detailed history of the Battle of Vienna in 1683 and how Western Europe was saved from being overrun by Mohammedans by the saintly heroics of Jan III Sobieski.

45 posted on 11/29/2011 8:51:33 AM PST by jtal (Runnin' a World in Need with White Folks' Greed - since 1492)
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To: fruser1


"Yet, in the US, there is freedom of religion."


Really?! Could have fooled me...I thought it was freedom from religion. /s

"Note, worship of God is a greater commandment than “thou shalt not kill”. Yet, in the US, there is freedom of religion. You can be one of those pagan wiccan types if you like here. Do you expect your Catholic political leaders to change the constitution to enforce worship of God? " I expect Catholic politicians to be Catholic...they should love God first. Does loving God first mean they should force others to love God first? No. But it in no way gives them authority to force Americans to participate in Satanic rituals of sacrificing innocent defenseless pre-born and just born little boys and girls. Nor does it give them authority to steal from all Americans who work. Nor does it give them authority to kill the elderly or the disabled or the too costly. Nor does it give them the authority to eliminate God from the public square. Your comment stinks of the illogical atheistic secularist humanist Paulbot mentality.
46 posted on 11/29/2011 9:00:32 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Given the USCCB's support of illegal immigration, universal healthcare, and union organizing, and the Pope's support of their doing so, I think the better question to ask is "Can a Catholic also be a conservative?"

Where in this article does the Pope explicitly endorse the positions you outline above? The point he was making was that bishops should not fear to use their voice in the public sphere. Whether they do that wisely is up to the bishops.

You are implying something that the Pope in fact did not say. This is at best a distortion.

47 posted on 11/29/2011 9:04:08 AM PST by jtal (Runnin' a World in Need with White Folks' Greed - since 1492)
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To: Donnafrflorida
Donnafrflorida said: As a Catholic, I am firmly in the camp of NO ABORTIONS EVER. How can any Christian say that Jesus would support this mortal sin. He turned over tables at the temple. What would he have done or said at an abortion mill?

I bet you would be surprised to learn that in 1st century Israel there was child sacrifice, religious sexual immorality and other heathen worship committed by some, in fact in Caesarea Philippi was famous for worship of Pan. Jesus certainly visited this area, no record of his turning over tables there so it is hard to say what he would do at an abortion mill. My guess is that he would invite the owner of the mill to dinner and present the gospel to him same as he did with Zaccheus.

I certainly agree that abortion is a sin, a sin just like all the others and it is a scourge on the land. Like you I cannot understand anyone calling themselves a Christian and allowing this to continue. But keep in mind it is was practiced in Jesus day.

My point? Jesus took the sinner from at the point that he was when he encountered him and transformed the individual into a new creation. The old creation has no problem with abortion, the change has to be from within. The new creation in Christ, well, that is a different story.

48 posted on 11/29/2011 9:04:59 AM PST by fatboy (This protestant will have no part in the ecumenical movement)
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To: jacknhoo
I remember ZELL MILLER'S introduction speech at the Republican National Convention. He said that he was going to vote for George Bush because of Bush's attitude about protecting American families.

Later someone asked Miller why he didn't change parties. He said that being a Democrat was like being in one's family house. The house may be old, run down and in need of repair. One tried to fix that old house but one just didn't move...it was home.

Perhaps one can be a Democrat like that, with the soul of a Republican. Perhaps.

My husband gave me a recording of that speech; I wonder if I still have it. It was ONE HECK OF A SPEECH. Miller would have been an OUTSTANDING preacher.

49 posted on 11/29/2011 11:17:52 AM PST by cloudmountain
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To: jacknhoo

Here’s Kreeft’s website: http://peterkreeft.com/audio.htm

That link take you to his audios. A treasure trove of sanity.


50 posted on 11/29/2011 12:52:53 PM PST by choirboy
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