Skip to comments.What Jesus said about homosexuality -- Part 2
Posted on 12/01/2011 12:14:40 PM PST by ReformationFan
In my previous essay I tried to show how two of Jesus' teachings bear on the issue of whether He condones homosexual behavior. These were words directly from His mouth that deal with our question indirectly. In this article I plan to discuss an indirect way He addressed the direct issue, as well as a direct way He dealt with the matter directly. Yes, Jesus had a surprising amount to say about homosexuality.
Jesus' commission: The Apostles speak for Him
It must have seemed like a good idea at the time: to print the "Words of Christ in Red." But this marketing gimmick may help fuel the notion that the sayings of Jesus are somehow "more inspired" than the rest of the Bible. That isn't possible. Paul wrote, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16, NASB, emphasis mine) Peter classed Paul's writings among "the rest of the Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15,16) The New Testament Apostles and the Old Testament prophets agree that every word of the Bible, as originally penned, is exactly as God wants it to be.
The Apostles had plenty to say about same-sex sex, and none of it positive for example, in Romans 1:18-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, 1 Tim. 1:9-11, and 2 Peter 2:6-10. So when people say, "Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality..." they're insinuating that there's some kind of feud between Christ and His hand-picked spokesmen. Not only is there no evidence for that, it's ludicrous on its face. Virtually everything we know about Jesus comes from the Apostles. If they misrepresented His views in their letters, then we can't trust their reports of what He said in the gospels. On the other hand, if you accept "Blessed are the meek" as an authentic sentiment of Jesus, then Romans 1 and all the other scriptures against homosexual behavior are also accurate representations of His thoughts.
Jesus explained in advance how this would work. At the Last Supper, alone with His disciples, He said:
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, and you will bear witness also, because you have been with Me from the beginning. ... I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 15:26, 27... 16:12,13)
Just as the Son spoke for the Father by the Spirit (John 8:26-29, John 12:49-50, John 14:10), the Apostles spoke for Jesus by the same Spirit. If you believe in Jesus, you have staked your eternal soul on the veracity of what the Apostles wrote. To believe in Christ is to believe the Apostles; or, to put it the other way around, to disbelieve them is to disbelieve in Him. There is no rift between Jesus and Paul, or Jesus and Peter, or Jesus and John. The black letters are just as much the thoughts and intentions of Christ as the red letters.
Jesus' pre-existence: The Word speaks for Himself
But the excuser of homosexual sin doesn't just have to invent a war between Jesus and His designated agents. He also must pretend that there's contention within the Godhead. The Son uproots the works of the Father.
In fact it was the Gnostics, not the Christians, who taught that Christ was sent to demolish the ways of the inferior Hebrew god (the "Demiurge") and establish the worship of a better, nicer god. Now, if you get your information about Christianity from the "History" channel, you may be under the impression that the Gnostics were a sect of Christians. You may also believe that the pyramids were built by space aliens. Gnostics were pagans. People who say that Jesus repealed the moral law given at Sinai, are ignorantly parroting the dogma of a long-dead cult.
Christians believe that the Son of God did not begin to exist when He "became flesh and dwelt among us." Rather, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:1-3 See also Colossians 1:15-17) Though we can distinguish the Son from the Father as Persons, they aren't separate Gods, or separate parts of God. They are perfectly unified, along with the Spirit. Whatever God the Father said in the Old Testament including what He said against same-sex sex was said by the Son, and the Spirit as well. The holy prophets were moved by "the Spirit of Christ." (1 Peter 1:11) So the command in Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination," came from the Word, the Logos, the Christ just as surely as the command, "Let there be light," and the command, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."
It's easy to see, in just the four quick points I've given, that Jesus did say something about homosexual behavior. He said it in the Old Testament, and in the New. He said it directly, by His own mouth; and indirectly, through others. He spoke about it generally, under the umbrella of all OT sins; and he talked about it very specifically, describing the activity. It just isn't honest to say that Christ was silent on this subject.
Or that He approves.
Did Jesus himself say anything about it or just the writers well after his death?
straight from the source.. The Word.
wolfie, did you bother to read any of the post? Your question is answered completely there.
Hint, ‘In the beginning was the Word......’
If you can take the leap of faith that Jesus wrote the Bible stories using these men as proxies, you answered the question.
If you cannot take the leap of faith, it does not.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree 100% with biblical morality, but it does take a leap of faith to say Jesus wrote it. Jesus was a brilliant, literate man that could have written a bible himself if he wanted to, but he stuck with the Old Testament. To those that think like myself, the New Testament is a collection out of many stories that were written by man and chosen by man at Constantine’s Council of Nicea, 300 years after the death of Jesus, out of a much larger pool of stories to be included in the New Testament.
You get no argument from me. I wish more of the church fathers writings made the cut because I think much of those writings are inspired too. That said, when supporting all scriptures don’t you usually get the “stoning is allowed” and encouraged, argument? How do you form your response.
Everything we have about Jesus was written after his death. Everything accepted for inclusion in the New Testament was accepted at the time as written by people who personally witnessed the events recorded and met Jesus before the crucifixion, by a writer recording the words of an eyewitness, or by Paul who (according to Acts) encountered Jesus after the crucifixion, on the road to Damascus. It's your call what that means to you, but if the rest of the Bible is God's word, I feel compelled to accept those passages that are inconvenient to me as God's word too.
Those who are worried about translation errors might check Young's Literal Translation; Old Testament and his New Testament. Both are word by word translations that can be checked against old manuscripts from the first 300 years AD. They don't flow as well as KJV, but they allow a check on whether meaning was preserved in the more popular translations (hint: meaning is usually but not quite always preserved by other translations, and it is identical to the original in multiple passages on homosexuality).
Yes. Mark 7:21 records that Jesus said “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,” and in Matthew 15:19 Jesus said “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies”. The English word “fornications” He used is translated from the Greek word porneia. Porneia is defined among other things as 1) illicit sexual intercourse,a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. This clearly shows that Jesus did speak about homosexual behavior and considered it a sin.
"The Word" said something about it WELL BEFORE HIS physical BIRTH, as a matter of fact. bttt
Indeed. My Lord and Savior showed compassion on the ill and the disabled. I do not believe he would think behavior which breaks His Father’s laws and results in anal cancer, AIDS and other STDs and other health disorders is “fabulous”.
To those who think like myself, the Bible does not contain the word of God, it IS the word of God. This word was written, by many men, over many years, under inspiration of God. It is infallible, true, and life changing.
Whether or not Jesus picked up pen (quill?) and paper (parchment?) to write the words Himself is irrelevant. They are of and by Him.
Leap of faith? If you are willing to take a step, then why not leap? Jesus, by His word, says he would rather you were Hot or Cold for Him, not luke warm. Luke warm makes Him want to vomit - His words there.
Something about having the faith of a child. Believe the Father and His Word.
I have no doubt he believed it was a sin, just curious as to whether he actually taught it. I can’t speak for Greek and the translation or what was meant by fornication.
“To those who think like myself, the Bible does not contain the word of God, it IS the word of God. This word was written, by many men, over many years, under inspiration of God. It is infallible, true, and life changing.”
I am sorry, but whether you like it or not, that is a leap of faith and not fact. What about the passages and gospels that were not selected? Are they not the word of God because the men that were ordained by God to chooses the passages at the Council of Nicea to be included in the New Testament did not choose those? I assume that if you believe the Council of Nicea, who chose the texts for the New Testament, were also God inspired? If that is the case, you must be either Catholic or Orthodox because the Council of Nicea also effectively created Christian Orthodoxy under the Papacy. If you are a Protestant, then you are a heretic under your own beliefs if you take that “leap of faith”.
Great post. Thanks!
That I agree with. Bisexuality was rampant in the anceint world and pure homosexuality is a relatively modern invention.
Yeah, I guess you know. What facts are you basing this choirboy crap on?
Homosexuality is just partner assisted masturbation.
"Sexual Secrets of the Normal"..As Upton explains, 'the Sodomite is violent against nature because he denies relatedness to the Other; his erotic energy is turned inward.' This is indeed the key point. Man cannot engage in mere animal sexuality without sinking beneath even the animals, who are innocent in their animality. ..."