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Pope to theologians: focus on the Trinity
Catholic Culture ^ | December 02, 2011

Posted on 12/02/2011 12:29:22 PM PST by Alex Murphy

Christian theologians should help the world to understand the “Trinitarian monotheism shows the true face of God,” Pope Benedict XVI said in a December 2 address to the International Theological Commission.

The Pope acknowledged that Christian monotheism builds on the faith of Judaism. But with the incarnation of Jesus, this faith “came to be illuminated with a completely new light: the light of the Trinity, a mystery which also illuminates brotherhood among men.”

Pope Benedict next addressed the question of how scholars can identify authentically Catholic thought. He observed that many Christians take the Bible as the ultimate source of authority, but said that reliance on Scripture, while necessary, is not sufficient. “The Bible is always necessarily read in a certain context,” the Pope said, “and the only context in which the believer can be in full communion with Christ is the Church and her living Tradition.”

Finally, speaking on Catholic social thought, the Holy Father said that Church teaching in that real should be recognized not merely as another social theory, but as an outgrowth of the faith. When Catholics join with others to promote social causes, he said, “we must make present the true and profound religious motivations of our social commitment, just as we expect of others that they manifest their own motivations, so that our work together can be carried out in clarity.”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; trinitarianism
Christian theologians should help the world to understand the “Trinitarian monotheism shows the true face of God,” Pope Benedict XVI said in a December 2 address to the International Theological Commission....

....Pope Benedict next addressed the question of how scholars can identify authentically Catholic thought. He observed that many Christians take the Bible as the ultimate source of authority, but said that reliance on Scripture, while necessary, is not sufficient. “The Bible is always necessarily read in a certain context,” the Pope said, “and the only context in which the believer can be in full communion with Christ is the Church and her living Tradition.”

1 posted on 12/02/2011 12:29:27 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
[...] in full communion with Christ is the Church and her living Tradition False Gospel.”

There. Fixed it. The Pope needs to be more accurate.

:D

Hoss

2 posted on 12/02/2011 1:16:13 PM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: HossB86

The Pope’s message is sad. The Trinity is a core belief that all Christians share and agree on. So it should be something that brings together. The Pope divides us.


3 posted on 12/02/2011 1:22:00 PM PST by DManA
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To: HossB86

So 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 doesn’t really hold any weight in your view?

I’m not Catholic, by the way, but if the whole Bible is the inspired, revealed word of God, then shouldn’t the WHOLE Bible be believed?


4 posted on 12/02/2011 2:02:19 PM PST by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Alex Murphy; HossB86; DManA

5 posted on 12/02/2011 2:05:49 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
Carnac the Magnificent
6 posted on 12/02/2011 2:17:34 PM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius

Not the same “tradition” as peddled by the Roman Catholic Church. Paul passed on by word and letter inspired info... not man-made tradition.

Hoss


7 posted on 12/02/2011 2:42:15 PM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Riot!!!

:D

Hoss


8 posted on 12/02/2011 2:45:47 PM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: HossB86

So all the traditions that Paul taught were recorded in the Scriptures?


9 posted on 12/02/2011 2:48:07 PM PST by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Pyro7480

I guess it would be folly to point out that anti Trinitarian heretics rely on Scripture to prove their beliefs?


10 posted on 12/02/2011 2:58:11 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: DManA
The Trinity is a core belief that all Christians share and agree on. So it should be something that brings together. The Pope divides us.

"I don't give 'em hell, I just tell 'em the truth and they think it's hell." -- Harry Truman

11 posted on 12/02/2011 3:01:12 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: Alex Murphy
Barney

Watch it! Murph! I will get the Cops after You!

12 posted on 12/02/2011 3:54:32 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Please hold while I go to the market to buy popcorn.


13 posted on 12/02/2011 4:01:40 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: johngrace; lilyramone; crusadersoldier; Ellzeena; Anvilhead; stonehouse01; Goreknowshowtocheat; ...

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.


14 posted on 12/02/2011 4:05:39 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses

Amen.


15 posted on 12/02/2011 4:18:06 PM PST by Absolutely Nobama (Chairman Obama And Ron Paul Are Sure Signs The Republic Is In Serious Trouble. God Help Us All.)
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To: narses
Photobucket
16 posted on 12/02/2011 4:18:29 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

The orthodox Catholic notion of communicatio idiomatum holds that:
The human and the divine activities predicated of Christ in Holy Writ and in the Fathers may not be divided between persons or hypostases, the Man-Christ and the God-Logos, but must be attributed to the one Christ, the Logos become Flesh . . . It is the Divine Logos, who suffered in the flesh, was crucified, and rose again . . .

(Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 144)

Christ’s Divine and Human characteristics and activities are to be predicated of the one Word Incarnate. (De fide.)

As Christ’s Divine Person subsists in two natures, and may be referred to either of those two natures, so human things can be asserted of the son of God and Divine things of the Son of Man.

The old Lutheran Doctrinal Theology theology inclines to the monophysitic error which posits a real transference of Divine attributes such as omniscience, omnipotence, ubiquity, by reason of the Hypostatic Union, to the human nature of Christ, and teaches that “Christ, not only as God, but also as man knows all, can do all, and is present to all created things” (formula concordiae I 8, 11).

(Ott, p. 160)

The nature of the Hypostatic Union is such that while on the one hand things pertaining to both the Divine and Human nature can be attributed to the person of Christ, on the other hand things specifically belonging to one nature cannot be predicated of the other nature. Since concrete terms (God, Son of God, Son of Man, Christ the Almighty) designate the Hypostasis and abstract terms (Godhead, humanity, omnipotence) the nature, the following rule may be laid down: communicatio idioamatum fit in concreto, non in abstracto. The communication of idioms is valid for concrete terms not for abstract ones. So, for example: The Son of Man died on the Cross; Jesus created the world. The rule is not valid if . . . the concrete term is limited to one nature. Thus it is false to say “Christ has suffered as God.” “Christ created the world as a human being.” It must also be observed that the essential parts of the human nature, body and soul are referred to the nature, whose parts they are. Thus it is false to say: “Christ’s soul is omniscient,” “Christ’s body is ubiquitous.”

Further, predication of idioms is valid in positive statements not in negative ones, as nothing may be denied to Christ which belongs to Him according to either nature. One, therefore, may not say: “The Son of God has not suffered,” “Jesus is not almighty.”

(Ott, p. 161; italics added)

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/11/orthodox-catholic-christology.html


17 posted on 12/02/2011 4:23:42 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses

Amen!


18 posted on 12/02/2011 4:27:07 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace
Watch it! Murph! I will get the Cops after You!

Nip it in the bud!

19 posted on 12/02/2011 5:31:59 PM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: HossB86

**False Gospel.”**

According to whom? Your YOPIOS?


20 posted on 12/02/2011 5:39:20 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: HossB86

21 posted on 12/02/2011 5:40:10 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
We have spoken Tradition because --- the Bible says so!

You belive in Scripture, correct?
 
Then why don't you believe this?
 

John 21: (We'll be using the KJV today to keep things on even footing): "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

 

The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything.


22 posted on 12/02/2011 5:43:33 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses
I'm hurt -- you didn't pull out the other three worn-out graphics you always use -- the "pot meet kettle", the "yawning man," and the "one trick pony."

Boring.

23 posted on 12/02/2011 5:54:31 PM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: HossB86

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


24 posted on 12/02/2011 6:05:16 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Alex Murphy

The greatest book on the Trinity since Augustine (and a much more entertaining read): http://tinyurl.com/mindofthemaker


25 posted on 12/02/2011 6:45:29 PM PST by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: Salvation
The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything.

Amen.

Steve Ray says it thus: "Hey, didn't you know that as Jesus was ascending into heaven He yelled back to the Apostles: READ MY BOOK!" Jesus didn't leave us anything written down, no momentos, no structures, no rosaries, just twelve men, one being the Rock.

Boy, could He ever pick'em.
I always remember that He chose Judas Escariot too. I like to think that it was a template for the religious, that is, there WILL be a lemon every once in a while.

26 posted on 12/02/2011 9:17:28 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: narses
3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 00086 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Every person born of the flesh has sinned there are non no not one who's own righteousness can stand before God the Father. To say that any person is without sin and spotless other than Jesus is calling God and His word a lier!

27 posted on 12/02/2011 9:46:41 PM PST by guitarplayer1953
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To: Alex Murphy

LOL!


28 posted on 12/02/2011 10:44:01 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Alex Murphy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2P4mg-nUfI


29 posted on 12/02/2011 11:07:58 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Salvation
"The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything"

Just everything we need to know and are capable of understanding.

30 posted on 12/03/2011 4:39:27 AM PST by circlecity
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To: guitarplayer1953; narses
3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 00086 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Every person born of the flesh has sinned there are non no not one who's own righteousness can stand before God the Father. To say that any person is without sin and spotless other than Jesus is calling God and His word a lier!

So are you saying that Jesus was not born of the flesh? I am a little confused with your statement, To say that any person is without sin and spotless other than Jesus… That seems inconsistent with the annotated quote (bolding) you gave from Romans 3:23.

The other, related, question is this: can you please elucidate exactly how a newborn infant personally sins immediately upon emerging from his/her mother's womb? Did the infant sin while in the mother's womb? Are you saying that the infant will immediately go to Hell if he/she dies before accepting Christ as his/her personal savior? If all means all, then all includes infants and children in the womb. No exceptions means no exceptions.

Not trying to get into an argument...just trying to understand your very interesting interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

And as long as we are looking at absolutes in Romans 3, perhaps you could provide your interpretation of Romans 3:11 (KJV) …there is none that seeketh after God.

Does none mean none? Does that none mean before, during, and after the time of St Paul? So how does that work with Enoch? Or Elijah?

Thanks.

31 posted on 12/03/2011 5:21:42 AM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good-Pope Leo XIII)
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To: Campion

Overrated democrat politician who told a LOT of lies in his day. Protestant too.


32 posted on 12/03/2011 5:58:56 AM PST by DManA
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To: guitarplayer1953

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


33 posted on 12/03/2011 7:45:45 AM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses

Oooh. Maybe you’ll do the exorcism prayer next!!!

I’m excited! I can’t wait!

Boring.

Hoss


34 posted on 12/03/2011 8:01:08 AM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: Alex Murphy

“Christian theologians should help the world to understand the “Trinitarian monotheism shows the true face of God”

John 14:28:

“for my Father is greater than I”

1 Corinthians 15:28:

“And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all”

The clearly established biblical doctrine is Jesus Christ the son, the father being greater and above all.


35 posted on 12/03/2011 8:10:12 AM PST by ScottfromNJ
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius

I’m not Hoss, but I’ll give an answer:

“So all the traditions that Paul taught were recorded in the Scriptures?”

The essential ones, yes, most definitely—WHICH IS WHY THEY WERE WRITTEN DOWN.

The Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, holds many of the characteristics of a covenant or contract (why they are called TESTAMENTS), and one of those is the written nature of covenants, and the authority of that written nature.

If you sell real estate (or a car, or anything highly valuable) you will have a written contract—as well as a new deed, proving title to that property. Why? The English Parliament in the 1660s...after many (many) disputes after the great fire of London, established that real property ownership HAD to be backed up IN WRITING, or else the courts would not bother to defend ownership. This means at least written title must exist—recorded and stored by the government (usually in your local courthouse). In contract law too, this means that there is no legally enforceable agreement for conveyance of real property—unless it is in writing—signed by all relevant parties.

All successful countries today have similar rules—that things be in writing—for contracts and property ownership. In real estate—even though we’re talking about transactions that take place in usually just a matter of days or weeks—the principle is: If’s it not in writing....it cannot be required.

The reason for this is obvious—even persons of good will, forget, and mix up the details of property lines, sale price, dates, etc...and of course the world doesn’t even have that many persons of good will. Therefore, sinful, error-prone, humans NEED to back up important promises in writing.

So too with God’s covenants. The earliest one of any detail...was WRITTEN, BY Moses...in the 10 Commandments and the Torah. That way, foibles in institutional memory, or leaders or persons of influence who had flawed memory, or were not necessarily of good will—would not confuse, contradict, or add to, the Law of God, and give traditions of men (Jesus’ term) equal weight, to the Word of God.

The testimony of the Apostles, that is the New Testament, continued in that Old Testament tradition—namely of writing down what was essential, and what was enforceable.

One of the funny things I find about Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox)idea of hidden “tradition” passed on from the Apostles (besides it being a Gnostic idea)... is the total implausibility of it...

Just play a game of “telephone” with kids (or adults) where you whisper a simple story in one person’s ear, and have them whisper it to the next person—down through 8 or 10 persons. Invariably, the story told by the last person will bear little if any resemblance to the original. Were people TRYING to mess up? No...but to err is human.

Many of the doctrines of Rome or Constantinople based solely on tradition—don’t show UP in history—until HUNDREDS of years AFTER the Apostles were gone. Is their source being the Apostles at all plausible? NO!

And no, its not enough for the Church to tell me—it is because we say so. That’s putting your brain on a shelf.

If a story cropped up today—with no identifiable history or provenance—of George Washington visiting France, would we regard it as credible? We know from the records that Jefferson and Franklin visited France, but not Washington. Suppose a powerful scholar, and University president (and advocate of France) with many untenured scholars directly under his control, insisted that Washington visited France? Is it possible that those under his control....whose UNTENURED career and very livelihood was in that University president’s hands...would go along with his zany idea of Washington-in-France? Of course they would. Then suddenly you have a powerful source—with impeccable credentials...advocating this novel theory as fact—backed up by numerous scholars.

This is the kind of atmosphere (in spades) found in the Middle Ages. With a strict hierarchy of leadership in the Church—if the Pope or a powerful Cardinal or Bishop supported a particular “tradition” (no matter how shaky its historic foundation), particularly if it were a popular story (take the Assumption of Mary for example...)than by golly—his priests, his monks, his University...his underlings—at all levels...would be supporting it too (if by nothing else than silence...). It’s easy to see how down through the years, all kinds of extraneous ideas and pseudo-histories were added to the facts of the testimony of the Apostles (the New Testament) through the back-door of “Tradition,” combined with the abuse (whether intentional or not...) of power.

My issue is I just do not understand why the bogus nature of unwritten tradition (like unwritten promises in a contract...)....after 2000 years...isn’t obvious to everyone.

I’m not saying chuck out all tradition, as there are many “neutral” traditions...but, if you cannot back up a tradition in the Word of the Apostles, the New Testament—which is, simultaneously, the Word of God, it cannot be required—because, after all, it’s not in writing.


36 posted on 12/03/2011 12:45:07 PM PST by AnalogReigns (because REALITY is never digital...)
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To: HossB86

Ping to my reply above...since I mentioned your handle.


37 posted on 12/03/2011 12:55:17 PM PST by AnalogReigns (because REALITY is never digital...)
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To: AnalogReigns

Great reply!

Hoss


38 posted on 12/03/2011 12:59:14 PM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: narses
man has bestowed not God she was a vessel just like all others in need of salvation.
39 posted on 12/04/2011 12:06:03 AM PST by guitarplayer1953
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To: markomalley
out side of Jesus all men and women are born with the original sin of the fall. Babies are born with sin and sprinkling them with water only gets them wet.
40 posted on 12/04/2011 12:08:25 AM PST by guitarplayer1953
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To: guitarplayer1953; narses
...in need of salvation.

That part of your statement is remarkably consistent with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. You may wish to rethink it, as I know you have no desire to agree with Catholics on anything.

she was a vessel just like all others...

Funny how God would simply choose some random person, full of sin (in your opinion), as the vessel to hold His Incarnate Self when He took such care to define an especially precious vessel in the Old Testament (the Ark of the Covenant) (Ex 25), a mere shadow of what was to be (Heb 8:5).

41 posted on 12/04/2011 2:31:28 AM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good-Pope Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley

all have sinned all are in need of salvation no one except the Christ was born as the spotless lamb. The church has made up a fairy tale of sinless mother who was transported to heaven. Sound just like Mohamed of islam. Christ rebuked His mother for not knowing the plan of God just as Paul rebuked Peter for being a hypocrite.


42 posted on 12/04/2011 5:30:59 PM PST by guitarplayer1953
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To: guitarplayer1953; narses
The church has made up a fairy tale of sinless mother who was transported to heaven.

OK, and I guess the Church surreptitiously inserted the following into the Scriptures: καὶ εἰσελθὼν ὁ ἄγγελος πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν

Translation: And the angel came in to her and said, Hail, thou who was previously graced, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.

And it's funny that when the Church had that horrible verse inserted, they used the word κεχαριτωμένη (stem: χαριτόω, verb form of the word: χάρις -- grace), they selected a word that was used only ONCE elsewhere in the entire New Testament. In this verse: εἰς ἔπαινον δόξης τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἐν ᾗ ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ (To the praise of the glory of his grace in that he graced us in his love). In other words: in Ephesians 1:6.

And it's funny that the Church, when it surreptitiously inserted that verse into Luke, decided to use the perfect tense, which describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Compared to how St Paul wrote it in Ephesians, using the Aorist tense, which describes an action without regard to time.

I'm sure they inserted this forged verse in there so that it would correspond exactly to the exact definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception: the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin

Of course, since the Catholics just invented this doctrine out of whole cloth in 1849, it must have been quite the task to change every single copy of the Greek New Testament, as well as every vernacular translation in the world, to reflect the change. Of course, Pius IX, using the secret super computer located in the basement of the Vatican, could instantaneously change all of those Catholic Bibles out there. But maybe you could help with this: do you know how much he had to pay off each and every Protestant scripture scholar to allow that verse to be added to their Bibles and their Greek texts? Must have been a whole lot of money.


Seriously, I sort of envy you. It must be very comforting to have a faith so strong and pure that you won't even let Sacred Scripture stand in its way.

43 posted on 12/05/2011 2:16:16 AM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good-Pope Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley
No where does the bible say that Mary was without sin and was a chase virgin the rest of her life. It actually says that Joesph did not know her until after the birth of Jesus. If was are going to go with traditions the tradition says that Mohamed rode his horse to heaven.
44 posted on 12/05/2011 1:57:52 PM PST by guitarplayer1953
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