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Following The Truth: Ten Facts Most Catholics Donít Know (But Should!) (Catholic or Open)
CE.cpm ^ | July 9th, 2010 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 12/07/2011 8:24:20 AM PST by Salvation

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To: Gargantua

**I was raised Catholic, through First Communion up to my Confirmation**

You are still a Catholic and always will be one, although you will have to answer for your inactive status at the present.

The word is “intercede”

The Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints are in heaven, much closer to Christ and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit than I am. So I ask them to pray for me. That’s what intercession/interceding is all about.

**Save your tortured mumbledygook **

I pity you at the moment you meet Christ when you die. Are you going to say you are sorry for “mumbledygooking” his Mother? Or will he say to you, “Go with the goats, you did not respect my Mother who brought me into the world at Christma. Begone to the darkness.” What will he say?


51 posted on 12/07/2011 3:31:51 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

It’s just the series I chose for Advent this year. Like I used Divine Mercy during Lent last year.


52 posted on 12/07/2011 3:34:06 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Gargantua; Quix
Both of you read the Bible, right? Then why don't you believe this?

 
The Scripture Text Lk 1:26-38 

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have favour with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His father  David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no husband?” And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible.” And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. (Lk 1:26-38 RSV) 

53 posted on 12/07/2011 3:43:08 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Not to the slightest degree.

You must also be reading a different ‘Bible.’


54 posted on 12/07/2011 4:20:10 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Salvation

How anyone can leap from Luke to the kind of hideousness that’s in Ferraro

and still claim to be rational

is beyond me.


55 posted on 12/07/2011 4:23:10 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Alex Murphy
1. Women Will Never Be Priests

I don't care about this. Catholics can make up whatever rules they want for their own church.

2. Fridays Are Still Days Of Penance

I don't believe "penance" is a Scriptural concept since Christ died to set us free from the curse of sin and its punishments. He bore our punishment on the cross and we stand before God clothed in the righteousness of Christ, not our own. We have no righteousness that can satisfy the penalty of sin, which is DEATH.

3. The Bible Is A Catholic Book

The Bible is the Divinely-inspired, God-breathed Holy Scriptures that HE ensured contains all truth necessary for our salvation and the doctrines we must know to live holy and God-honoring lives. The books that were added to the Jewish Old Testament, called Deuterocanonical or Apocryphal, were not considered Divinely inspired, but only "useful" for the church. They contain numerous errors in history, geography and contradict other unanimously agreed as God-breathed Holy Scripture. God would not allow fallible and erroneous books to be held up as binding upon Christians.

4. The Mass Is The Same Sacrifice As Calvary

Catholics can think this if they want, but it doesn't make it true. Christ died "once for all" according to Scripture and his sacrifice is efficacious for all who by faith trust in Him as Savior. There is no need to "make the sacrifice present" for it to be propitiatory for all time. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

5. Annulments Are Not Catholic Divorces

Yet plenty of people are granted them, even those who have been married for decades and have brought children into the world. Again, Catholics can do what they want, but they shouldn't pretend something that is provably false.

6. In Vitro Fertilization Is Morally Unacceptable

Catholics can make whatever rules they want for their members. I personally agree that in vitro is morally wrong because it destroys human life in the pursuit of creating human life. God alone opens and closes the womb so perhaps those who are unable to conceive children of their own are meant to parent children who have lost their natural parents. God provides.

7. There Is No Salvation Outside Of The Catholic Church

There is no salvation outside of faith in Jesus Christ. Once one is "born again" by faith in Christ, they automatically become part of the Body of Christ, the Church of the Living God. The "Catholic Church" used to be known as the "universal", or catholic, church and represents the entire spiritually united called-out assembly of those sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ - the saints.

8. In An Emergency, Anyone Can Baptize

It is only by grace through faith that we are saved. We are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are born again. The outward act or ordinance of water baptism is a first act of obedience to testify to others of identification with Christ, as followers of him.

9. Hell And Purgatory Still Exist

Purgatory NEVER existed. There is no Scripture reference to it nor doctrinal justification for it. We are washed clean in the blood of Christ and he bore the punishment for all our sins. Because of this, we do not suffer the consequences of our sins after we die. While we are still alive, God disciplines and chastises us as our Heavenly Father who loves his children and desires for us to live blessed and holy lives. Not just to honor him but for our own benefit as well. Sin leads to dishonor and could even include physical death if we resist God's chastisement, but we are not judged according to our iniquities. We do not and cannot pay for our sins because the "wages of sin is death" - spiritual death.

10. Catholics Don’t Worship Mary And The Saints

I know you say this, and I accept that it is not "technically" approved, but I don't see how you can blame others for thinking you do by the evidence. Prayers to Mary that extol her God-like attributes, altars and candles set up before her statues and images, songs of praise, dogmas about her sinlessness and bodily assumption to Heaven, names like Co-Redemptress, Co-Mediatrix and source of all grace certainly suggest much more than honor and blessedness. Again, Catholics can do want they want, but to declare that they are THE One, True, and Only Church of Jesus Christ that outside of "her" none can be saved is taking it too far. To create whatever dogmas they desire and then holding ALL Christians to obedience and submission to the "infallible" Pope of Rome under threat of eternal damnation is a deep error that threatens the unity of all of the true children of God.

56 posted on 12/07/2011 5:16:23 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma
If anything, the font size, color and repetition just make me speed up and skip to the next post.

Yep, me too - like if this guy had internet:


57 posted on 12/07/2011 5:29:03 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma; Quix

Yeah it’s nice to have a clue who’s posting. lol


58 posted on 12/07/2011 6:13:38 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: Quix

Why, thank you. No one has every complimented me on dodging before.


59 posted on 12/07/2011 6:15:51 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: D-fendr
Yep, me too - like if this guy had internet:

I wonder if he sees aliens, too.

60 posted on 12/07/2011 6:45:44 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Salvation

Why is it so hard for you to accept that, when the moon is in full blush, and the rose blooms heavy by the thorn, the path to wisdom cries——littered with the corpses of the fallen——yet the worm goes to sleep hungry?


61 posted on 12/07/2011 7:25:51 PM PST by Gargantua (Men ARE created equal, but 21 years later... you get my point.)
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To: Salvation

Thank you for the ping Salvation. A good article.

Best Regards


62 posted on 12/07/2011 7:26:01 PM PST by JPX2011
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To: boatbums

Good response.


63 posted on 12/07/2011 7:30:25 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: boatbums; MarkBsnr

“The outward act or ordinance of water baptism is a first act of obedience to testify to others of identification with Christ, as followers of him.”

any Scripture to back any of this man made tradition up?
for example:
1. where does the Bible refer to baptism as an “outward act”?
2. where does the Bible refer to baptism as “water baptism”?
3. where does the Bible say baptism is any act of obedience?
4. where does the Bible say baptism is for “testifying” to others?

bonus question for you:

must someone accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior to be saved or is merely believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God sufficient?


64 posted on 12/07/2011 7:57:00 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

1. When Jesus gave the EXAMPLE as he was baptized.
2. When Phillip baptized the eunuch in a mud hole because there was no other water available
3. When Jesus gave Peter the”keys”to the kingdom, and said what peter says regarding salvation would be honored in heaven...then when Peter was asked “what must we do to be saved?”, he replied “repent and BE BAPTIZED
4. Not sure it does

Bonus: nowhere in the Bible does it say to “accept”the Lord....and just believing on him is insufficient, it actually says you must believe on him according to the Bible definition which means you will have the Holy Ghost ....that is what the Bible says, not me....


65 posted on 12/07/2011 8:08:39 PM PST by DrewsMum
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To: Gargantua
In case you didn't know it, the "blessed virgin" is dead, and can't pray for anyone.

God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.

66 posted on 12/07/2011 8:10:32 PM PST by TradicalRC (Zero Debt Now.)
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To: boatbums
1. Women Will Never Be Priests

I don't care about this. Catholics can make up whatever rules they want for their own church.

Yes. We Catholics made up the rule that we should follow Jesus' example. Christ preached obedience, which most Catholics observe. Protestantism came out of rebellion which has a distinct other source.

67 posted on 12/07/2011 8:23:22 PM PST by TradicalRC (Zero Debt Now.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Not “going there” with you, OLOFOB. These questions of yours have been answered by many others - including me - many times. You just don’t accept them because it would require you to give up your favorite “hobby horse”. If you REALLY were searching for the answers, you would not still be asking the same questions because every single one has already been answered. I have better uses for my time.


68 posted on 12/07/2011 8:26:38 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Gargantua
The Blessed Virgin is no more dead than Moses and Elijah, who appeared and spoke with Jesus at the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor.

How odd that this should all be discussed on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!"


69 posted on 12/07/2011 8:30:01 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Gargantua

 


70 posted on 12/07/2011 8:31:03 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: AnAmericanMother
1Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mary mediates for no body today. Only Jesus can mediate for us. Any other idea is non-Scriptural and not from God.
71 posted on 12/07/2011 8:46:55 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: Gargantua

**when the moon is in full blush, and the rose blooms heavy by the thorn, the path to wisdom cries——littered with the corpses of the fallen——yet the worm goes to sleep hungry?**

And just where in the Bible is all of that?


72 posted on 12/07/2011 9:00:37 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ScubieNuc

It would seem that you have never asked anyone to pray for you. Is that true?

That’s all we ask Mary to do — pray for us.


73 posted on 12/07/2011 9:02:35 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: TradicalRC
Yes. We Catholics made up the rule that we should follow Jesus' example. Christ preached obedience, which most Catholics observe. Protestantism came out of rebellion which has a distinct other source.

Roman Catholics certainly have made up many of their own rules that they follow and I have no problem with that. However, Jesus never said anything about a special priesthood of men. In fact, as Peter taught, we are ALL "built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (I Peter 2:5). Nor did Jesus ever teach that women had no place in the ministry of the Gospel. There were women disciples that initially followed Jesus and the early church had many women that participated in the activities of the local churches. There may have even been women deacons. Certainly, Paul spoke of women that hosted churches within their own homes and supported his many missionary journeys. I agree with Paul, though, that women should not "usurp" authority over a man which, I believe, would exclude women from being pastors or overseers of churches. Now, this may very well have been due to the culture where women were to "keep silent" in the church and to ask their husbands questions about teachings when they got home so there was no interruption. Now days, women are more Biblically literate than men and seem to be the spiritual leaders in the home, which is a shame for Christian men. They SHOULD be the spiritual leaders in their homes.

So, I do not deny that Catholics observe rules and laws set up by their leaders in the Church. I just prefer that they stay honest about what Scripture teaches and what they create outside of what Scripture teaches.

What you call "Protestantism" and its presumed origins, only proves that you have accepted some more of the teachings of your church which do not have a basis in either Scripture or truth. If you, instead, looked at history objectively you would know that the Reformation happened because of the growing apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church and was - rather than as you say an act of rebellion - an act of genuine, God-loving Christians who sought to return the Church back to her Biblical roots. There were many such believers around that time that were sickened by the excesses of the hierarchy and the Biblical ignorance of the clergy who barely knew what they believed anymore, nor why they believed it. There are many good articles that speak about the Reformation, its leaders, their reasons, their faith and what really happened. If you are interested in hearing more than one side, I'd be happy to give you some helpful links. Let me know. Have a good night.

74 posted on 12/07/2011 9:18:24 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: MarkBsnr
I wonder if he sees aliens, too.

Aliens, clones masquerading as gods and demons, idols everywhere, dead people…

75 posted on 12/07/2011 9:48:42 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Salvation
The Catholic Church gives Mary the title of Mediatrix, which essentially means that she supposedly mediates between man and Jesus or man and God. That is not supported by Scripture. There is nowhere in the Bible where either the Apostles told people to go to or to pray to Mary for mediation between them and God or for them to pray to other dead Christians to mediate between them and God.

By the way, a mediator is something very different from say another petitioner. The Bible does direct living Christians to pray for other living Christians, but it ALWAYS directs them to pray to God through Jesus, not to God through Mary.

The word in Timothy, which gets translated to "mediator" is 'mesites'. It means 1) one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant, 2) a medium of communication, arbitrator. Mary does NOT meet either standard.

Here is another verse that keeps Mary out of the picture...

Philipians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.


76 posted on 12/07/2011 9:51:30 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: AnAmericanMother
Thank you for your post.

Piero di Cosimo, so beautiful...

77 posted on 12/07/2011 9:59:42 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: ScubieNuc
She only passes on the prayers to her son.

MEDIATRIX

A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary's Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.

On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. Yet Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross. Mary gave him moral support in this action. She is therefore not entitled to the name "priest," as several Roman documents legislate. As explained by the Council of Florence in 1441, Christ "conquered the enemy of the human race alone" (Denzinger, 1347). In the same way he alone acquired the grace of redemption for the whole human race, including Mary. Her part in the objective redemption, therefore, was indirect and remote, and derived from her voluntary devotion to the service of Christ. Under the Cross she suffered and sacrificed with him, but subordinate to him in such a way that all the efficacy of her oblation depended on that of her Son.

On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ's redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God's special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition.

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

78 posted on 12/07/2011 10:00:52 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

....that since Mary's Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.

No Scriptural support for either an "assumption" into heaven (not dying) or any intercessory powers. As with everything else in that post, it is un-Scriptural dogma. You can waste your time and energy believing the "Mary lie", but I wont.


79 posted on 12/07/2011 10:25:17 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: boatbums
Did you ever see this? Notice that later the early church father quote Malachi on sacrifices every where in the the future.Plural not singler sacrifice. There was only one place/the temple for the old testament sacrifice. If Christ died in one place how come it is predicted in all places around the world. Only the sacrifice of the mass explains since mass is celebrated all over the world everyday.

Sacrifice of the Mass

Magesterial Quotes

Catechism of the Catholic Church

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (see note 395) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. (see note 396)Read More

"He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"Read More

603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. (see note 405) But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (see note 406) Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son". (see note 407)Read

God takes the initiative of universal redeeming loveRead More

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." (see note 410) He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. (see note 411) The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer." (see note 412)Read More

Supporting Bible Passages

Psalms Chapter 110

4: The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchiz'edek."Read More

Zechariah Chapter 14

1: Behold, a day of the LORD is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. 2: For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3: Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4: On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. 5: And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzzi'ah king of Judah. Then the LORD your God will come, and all the holy ones with him. 6: On that day there shall be neither cold nor frost. 7: And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light. 8: On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter. 9: And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one. 10: The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft upon its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Han'anel to the king's wine presses. 11: And it shall be inhabited, for there shall be no more curse; Jerusalem shall dwell in security. 12: And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will smite all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh shall rot while they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths. 13: And on that day a great panic from the LORD shall fall on them, so that each will lay hold on the hand of his fellow, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other; 14: even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15: And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the asses, and whatever beasts may be in those camps. 16: Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. 17: And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them. 18: And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then upon them shall come the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 19: This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 20: And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the LORD." And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar; 21: and every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the flesh of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.Read More

Malachi Chapter 1

11: For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.Read More

1 Corinthians Chapter 5

7: Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. 8: Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.Read More

1 Corinthians Chapter 11

24: and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."Read More

Hebrews Chapter 8

1: Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2: a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord. 3: For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.Read More

1 John Chapter 2

1: My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2: and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.Read More

Revelation Chapter 5

6: And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth;Read More

Early Church Fathers

Clement I, Pope [27-97 AD] First Epistle "Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).Read More

Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD] The Martyrdom of Ignatius "Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice-even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).Read More

Justin Martyr [100-165 AD] Dialogue with Trypho (Chapters 9-47)

"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).Read More

Irenaeus of Lyons [120-180 AD] Adversus Haereses (Book IV, Chapter 17)

"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).Read More

Cyprian of Carthage [200-270 AD] Epistle 62 "If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ" (Letters 63:14 [A.D. 253]).Read More Cyril of Jerusalem, St [315-386 AD] Catechetical Lecture 23 "Then, having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth his Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before him, that he may make the bread the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ, for whatsoever the Holy Spirit has touched is surely sanctified and changed. Then, upon the completion of the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless worship, over that propitiatory victim we call upon God for the common peace of the churches, for the welfare of the world, for kings, for soldiers and allies, for the sick, for the afflicted; and in summary, we all pray and offer this sacrifice for all who are in need" (Catechetical Lectures 23:7–8 [A.D. 350]).Read More

Gregory Nazianzen, St [325-389 AD] Letters (Division III) "Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood of the Lord, using your voice for a sword" (Letter to Amphilochius 171 [A.D. 383]).Read More Ambrose of Milan, St [340-397 AD] Letter 18 "We saw the prince of priests coming to us, we saw and heard him offering his blood for us. We follow, inasmuch as we are able, being priests, and we offer the sacrifice on behalf of the people. Even if we are of but little merit, still, in the sacrifice, we are honorable. Even if Christ is not now seen as the one who offers the sacrifice, nevertheless it is he himself that is offered in sacrifice here on Earth when the body of Christ is offered. Indeed, to offer himself he is made visible in us, he whose word makes holy the sacrifice that is offered" (Commentaries on Twelve Psalms of David 38:25 [A.D. 389]).Read More John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 8 on Romans "Reverence, therefore, reverence this table, of which we are all communicants! Christ, slain for us, the sacrificial victim who is placed thereon!" (Homilies on Romans 8:8 [A.D. 391]).Read More

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 24 on First Corinthians

"‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the blood of Christ?’ Very trustworthy and awesomely does he [Paul] say it. For what he is saying is this: What is in the cup is that which flowed from his side, and we partake of it. He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise him in song, wondering and astonished at his indescribable gift, blessing him because of his having poured out this very gift so that we might not remain in error; and not only for his having poured it out, but also for his sharing it with all of us. ‘If therefore you desire blood,’ he [the Lord] says, ‘do not redden the platform of idols with the slaughter of dumb beasts, but my altar of sacrifice with my blood.’ What is more awesome than this? What, pray tell, more tenderly loving?" (Homilies on First Corinthians 24:1(3) [A.D. 392]).Read More

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 41 on First Corinthians

"In ancient times, because men were very imperfect, God did not scorn to receive the blood which they were offering . . . to draw them away from those idols; and this very thing again was because of his indescribable, tender affection. But now he has transferred the priestly action to what is most awesome and magnificent. He has changed the sacrifice itself, and instead of the butchering of dumb beasts, he commands the offering up of himself" (ibid., 24:2).Read More

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 17 on Hebrews "What then? Do we not offer daily? Yes, we offer, but making remembrance of his death; and this remembrance is one and not many. How is it one and not many? Because this sacrifice is offered once, like that in the Holy of Holies. This sacrifice is a type of that, and this remembrance a type of that. We offer always the same, not one sheep now and another tomorrow, but the same thing always. Thus there is one sacrifice. By this reasoning, since the sacrifice is offered everywhere, are there, then, a multiplicity of Christs? By no means! Christ is one everywhere. He is complete here, complete there, one body. And just as he is one body and not many though offered everywhere, so too is there one sacrifice" (Homilies on Hebrews 17:3(6) [A.D. 403]).Read More

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] On the Priesthood (Book III)

"When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?" (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [A.D. 387]).Read More

Miscellaneous [Unknown] Canons of the Thirteen Holy Fathers (various dates)

"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).Read More

Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] The City of God (Book XVII)

"For when he says in another book, which is called Ecclesiastes, ‘There is no good for a man except that he should eat and drink’ [Eccles. 2:24], what can he be more credibly understood to say [prophetically] than what belongs to the participation of this table which the Mediator of the New Testament himself, the priest after the order of Melchizedek, furnishes with his own body and blood? For that sacrifice has succeeded all the sacrifices of the Old Testament, which were slain as a shadow of what was to come. . . . Because, instead of all these sacrifices and oblations, his body is offered and is served up to the partakers of it" (The City of God 17:20 [A.D. 419]).Read More

Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] Tractate 40 (John 8:28-32)

"In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness" (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]).Read More

80 posted on 12/07/2011 10:28:20 PM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: ScubieNuc

28. “Hail, full of grace”: literally the Greek text reads “Rejoice!”, obviously referring
to the unique joy over the news which the angel is about to communicate.

“Full of grace”: by this unusual form of greeting the archangel reveals Mary’s
special dignity and honor. The Fathers and Doctors of the Church “taught that
this singular, solemn and unheard-of-greeting showed that all the divine graces
reposed in the Mother of God and that she was adorned with all the gifts of the
Holy Spirit”, which meant that she “was never subject to the curse”, that is, was
preserved from all sin. These words of the archangel in this text constitute one
of the sources which reveal the dogma of Mary’s Immaculate Conception (cf.
Pius IX, “Ineffabilis Deus”; Paul VI, “Creed of the People of God”).


81 posted on 12/07/2011 10:32:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; lilyramone; crusadersoldier; Ellzeena; Anvilhead; stonehouse01; Goreknowshowtocheat; ...
+

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82 posted on 12/07/2011 10:37:21 PM PST by narses
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To: Heart-Rest

It should also be pointed out that the Bible did not exist in the form of a single volume as it does today, but as separate scrolls and codices each containing one book. And they were fairly expensive, since they were handwritten, even though —astonishingly—looking as though they were printed, so great was the skills of the scribes. Even a Church might not have all the books of the Bible. Until the 4th century, many were not likely to have St.John’s Revelation. In the 4th Century the Emperor did order the production of tens of bound volumes of Scripture. So probably some of the more important churches had already done the same thing. But not until the 380s do we find a definitive listing of the books of the canon.


83 posted on 12/07/2011 10:52:55 PM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
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To: Salvation
Huh?

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

You can find a break down of that verse with the original Greek here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=1&v=28&t=KJV#conc/28

Needless to say, none of what you posted can be substantiated in the actual verse. The Catholic explanation is all a very complex web created by men and not a devine direction from God.

...she was adorned with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit”, which meant that she “was never subject to the curse”, that is, was preserved from all sin.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary recognized her need for a savior. Someone that is without sin does not need a Savior.


84 posted on 12/07/2011 11:11:57 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: Quix

You confuse extravagant language with the dogmas of the Church. First, note that the Virgin has always been regarded as an exaulted person, because she is, after all, the Mother of the Lord, not like Elizabeth or Hannah, the mother of a prophet. And if Jesus is divine but also a man, then her role in the hypostatic union is enormously important. As she is fully human, she is the guarantor of the humanity of the Lord. But as he is divine, her role is as a witness to the part that the Father and the Holy Spirit played in the incarnation. Many evangelicals today object to the title of Mother or God, which I grant you is misleading, and the Eastern Title “Theotokos, meaning God-bearer , is more accurate, for its implies that it is through her that God entered the world in the form of a human being. No wonder that the cult of Mary “took off,” in the 4th Century, after the Church repudiated the teachings of Arius. But long before this, the Church help up Mary in high honor, because she was, as I have said, the proof that Jesus was not a spiritual being but a man. Further, that she was EverVirgin because the birth of Jesus was unlike any other human birth. This was already being said in the 2nd Century, as a response to the Gnostics.


85 posted on 12/07/2011 11:13:18 PM PST by RobbyS (Viva Christus Rex.)
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To: Quix

looks like someone needs to take their meds.


86 posted on 12/07/2011 11:15:48 PM PST by GOP Poet (Time for Bambi and his commie crew to go.)
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To: ScubieNuc

Here’s the way I was taught to understand Mary’s sinless status: God her Savior preserved her sinless. She did not do this on her own, it was done for her from her immaculate conception, so that she could be a pure mother for His only begotten Son, Who is our Savior. He lifts us out of the pit, but God prevented her from falling in, in the first place.

She is indeed special, among all created by God. She is not a goddess, she is human kept from all stain of sin by God, her Savior. She acknowledges this in the magnificat you quoted from Luke.


87 posted on 12/08/2011 12:10:24 AM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: narses

“Mary and the Saints are to be honored, not worshipped. However, their intercession can be extremely powerful and emulating their virtues can put us on the road to Heaven.”

It never ceases to amaze me how many anti-Catholic bigots can’t seem to grasp this concept.

Then again, bigots aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed.


88 posted on 12/08/2011 12:14:32 AM PST by Absolutely Nobama (Chairman Obama And Ron Paul Are Sure Signs The Republic Is In Serious Trouble. God Help Us All.)
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To: Judith Anne

I am curious as to why you cling tighter to the unsubstantiated stuff that you were taught years ago, then to reading the Bible today and clinging to the KNOWN Word of God?


89 posted on 12/08/2011 1:13:17 AM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc

The Word of God in the Bible was established and codified by the same Church you decry. You want to take that gift but ignore everything else she offers you.


90 posted on 12/08/2011 1:37:36 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

Wrong. The Word of God was established by the Holy Spirit of God. The books/letters of the New Testament were all written in the first Century. The Roman Catholic Church came to existance when the Christian church at Rome merged itself with the Roman government around the 4th Century.

I accept the gift of God in Christ Jesus. I reject any heresy that doesn’t square with the Word of God.


91 posted on 12/08/2011 1:58:40 AM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: Gargantua

St. Luke specifically tells us that the angel Gabriel greeted Mary with the name/title: Full of Grace.

If the Blessed Mother who is full of grace is dead, then we’re all screwed.

Immaculate Conception Feast Day Blessings!


92 posted on 12/08/2011 5:32:08 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: ScubieNuc

I don’t believe you are really curious. I think you already think you know it all.


93 posted on 12/08/2011 6:45:30 AM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: Salvation
"And just where in the Bible is all of that?"

Right under where it tells us to pray to "Mary."

8^\

94 posted on 12/08/2011 8:18:34 AM PST by Gargantua (Men ARE created equal, but 21 years later... you get my point.)
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To: Absolutely Nobama
"Then again, bigots aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed."

Funny. Christ said that when you call your brother a "fool" (raca) it is the same sin in God's eyes as killing him. Ever wonder why so many Catholics can't grasp that?

95 posted on 12/08/2011 8:21:59 AM PST by Gargantua (Men ARE created equal, but 21 years later... you get my point.)
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To: Gargantua

No matter how tempted I am, or how great the justification, oe how perfectly it fits, I do not call anyone “fool.”


96 posted on 12/08/2011 10:48:45 AM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: Gargantua

So, give us the post number of a Catholic calling anyone a fool.


97 posted on 12/08/2011 10:50:03 AM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: Judith Anne

No, I don’t know it all and I am curious as to why adults just blindly accept what was told to them as children and don’t do some personal study when they are older.

I can understand and respect children who accept on faith what those adults in authority told them to believe and why. I can’t understand adults who, when shown obvious contradictions between their beliefs and what they believe to be the Word of God, they take their beliefs (that they got when they were younger) over the Word of God.

Either the Bible is the Word of God, which would mean it is accurate, consistant, and not full of confusion, or it is just a partial construct, put togather by flawed mortal men with biases. IF the Bible is just a partial construct filled with biases, then how can you put ANY faith in the oral traditions of similar men born hundreds of years AFTER Christ? It makes no sense to me.


98 posted on 12/08/2011 12:20:54 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc
Your assertion is a common one, but it does not square with the massive documentation we have of the first three centuries of the Church.

If you read the Church Fathers -- especially the Apostolic Fathers, the ones who knew the apostles personally such as Clement, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp -- it is clear that the liturgical, theological and administrative structure of the Church was already in place.

And these men were hard at work compiling the Bible long before Carthage and St. Augustine.

We have thousands and thousands of pages of their writings and letters, it's not something that you can just assume didn't happen.

99 posted on 12/08/2011 12:27:30 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: ScubieNuc

I was born to a Jewish mother and a non-Christian father. I became Catholic in my 30s.

So far, I haven’t seen any contradictions in my Catholic beliefs. I do not regard protestant anti-Catholic sola scriptura propaganda as proof of anything, as protestants disagree among themselves so often and flagrantly as to be laughable, not worth bothering wit.


100 posted on 12/08/2011 12:36:06 PM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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