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To: Salvation
What a load of ascriptural nonsense.

If Mary or the Saints can "interceed" for us, then Christ's Work on the Cross was obviously left undone, eh? And when Jesus turned to the criminal hanging next to him, on the cross and said, "Today you will be with me in paradise. Your faith has saved you," He was just making it up, right?

Just like John was lying when he said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that all who believe in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting."

Save your tortured mumbledygook for those who truly do not "understand," because among those who do, you're spewing contrived silliness.

I was raised Catholic, through First Communion up to my Confirmation. Then I started really reading the Bible, and found that little-to-none of Catholic dogma was contained in Jesus' teachings, quite the contrary. When Jesus was asked how false teachers could be discerned, His reply was, "By their fruits shall you know them."

Any who deny Christ in any way are of the Enemy. Asking anyone but Christ to be your "intercessor" before God the Father is to explicitly deny the Truth of Jesus Christ.

Knock it off. Christmas is coming.

14 posted on 12/07/2011 10:21:45 AM PST by Gargantua (Men ARE created equal, but 21 years later... you get my point.)
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To: All; Gargantua
Communion of Saints

Magesterial Quotes

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Note#577 Cf. DS 3839.Read More

Note#465 Ordo Consecrationis Virginum, Praenotanda 1.Read More

Note#467 Cf. CIC, can. 604 Sect. 2.Read More

Note#470 Cf. AG 18; 40.Read More

Note#473 Pius XII, Provida Mater; cf. PC 11.Read More



Note#505 LG 58; cf. Jn 19:26-27.Read More

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (see note 618) Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth." (see note 619)Read More

Note#132 Cf. CIC, Can. 882.Read More

1451 Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again." (see note 50)Read More


1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation, (see note 65) bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."Read More

1465 When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. The priest is the sign and the instrument of God's merciful love for the sinner.Read More

1506 Christ invites his disciples to follow him by taking up their cross in their turn.. (see note 114) By following him they acquire a new outlook on illness and the sick. Jesus associates them with his own life of poverty and service. He makes them share in his ministry of compassion and healing: "So they went out and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.". (see note 115)Read More

1688 The liturgy of the Word during funerals demands very careful preparation because the assembly present for the funeral may include some faithful who rarely attend the liturgy, and friends of the deceased who are not Christians. The homily in particular must "avoid the literary genre of funeral eulogy" (see note 189) and illumine the mystery of Christian death in the light of the risen Christ.Read More

Note#90 Cf. Jn 19:25-27.Read More

Note#26 Byzantine Liturgy, Pentecost Vespers, Troparion.Read More

2832 As leaven in the dough, the newness of the kingdom should make the earth "rise" by the Spirit of Christ. (see note 119) This must be shown by the establishment of justice in personal and social, economic and international relations, without ever forgetting that there are no just structures without people who want to be just.Read More

Supporting Bible Passages

John Chapter 17 11: And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12: While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13: But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14: I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15: I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. 16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17: Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18: As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19: And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20: "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.Read More

Acts Chapter 9 1: But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2: and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3: Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. 4: And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5: And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;Read More

Romans Chapter 8

35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36: As it is written, "For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37: No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38: For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39: nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Read More

Romans Chapter 12

4: For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, 5: so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6: Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7: if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; 8: he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.Read More

1 Corinthians Chapter 10

17: Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.Read More

1 Corinthians Chapter 12

12: For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14: For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15: If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16: And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17: If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18: But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19: If all were a single organ, where would the body be? 20: As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21: The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22: On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23: and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24: which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25: that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26: If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27: Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.Read More

Galatians Chapter 3

28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.Read More

Ephesians Chapter 1

22: and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23: which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.Read More Ephesians Chapter 4

15: Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16: from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.Read More

Colossians Chapter 1

18: He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.Read More

Colossians Chapter 3

15: And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.Read More

Early Church Fathers

Hermas [60-120 AD] The Shepherd of Hermas (Book III, Similitude 5)

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).Read More

Clement of Alexandria [150-215 AD] The Stromata (Book VII) "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).Read More

Origen [185-254 AD] De Principiis (Book IV)

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).Read More

Cyprian of Carthage [200-270 AD] Epistle 7

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).Read More

Hilary of Poitiers, St [300-367 AD] On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).Read More

Ephraim the Syrian, St [306-373 AD] On Admonition and Repentance

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).Read More

Ephraim the Syrian, St [306-373 AD] The Nisibene Hymns "You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).Read More

Basil the Great, St [329-379 AD] Letter 243

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).Read More

Gregory of Nyssa [325-386 AD] On the Baptism of Christ (Sermon for the Day of Lights)

"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).Read More

Gregory Nazianzen, St [325-389 AD] Oration 18 "Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).Read More

Gregory Nazianzen, St [325-389 AD] Oration 41

"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).Read More

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 8 on Romans "When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).Read More

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 26 on Second Corinthians

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).Read More Methodius [Unknown] Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna "And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).Read More

Jerome, St [347-420 AD] To Pammachius Against John of Jerusalem

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).Read More

Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] The City of God (Book VIII)

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).Read More

Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] The City of God (Book XX)

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).Read More

Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] The City of God (Book XXII)

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).Read More

Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] Tractate 84 (John 15:13)

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).Read More

19 posted on 12/07/2011 10:39:49 AM PST by johngrace (1 John 4!- declared at every Sunday Mass,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Gargantua
If Mary or the Saints can "interceed" for us, then Christ's Work on the Cross was obviously left undone, eh?

So you don't pray for others? You don't pray for sick people, or family members, or fellow believers? If you did that would be interceding on their behalf and would meant that Christ's work is then left undone. Is this really what you believe?

23 posted on 12/07/2011 10:53:58 AM PST by cothrige
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To: Gargantua
Any who deny Christ in any way are of the Enemy. Asking anyone but Christ to be your "intercessor" before God the Father is to explicitly deny the Truth of Jesus Christ.

Question for you - when Mary made intercession to Jesus for the young couple at the wedding feast at Cana (John 2:1-11), did Jesus know they were out of wine before Mary interceded and told him about it? (The answer, I believe you will agree, is "yes".) However, did that stop Him at that time from allowing Mary's intercession, or make him not act on her request?

If Mary or the Saints can "interceed" for us, then Christ's Work on the Cross was obviously left undone, eh?

Remembering that you weren't even here yet, and hadn't started sinning yet (at the time Christ was crucified), was Christ's Crucifixion appllied to you and your sins yet? In your own system of beliefs, is your own belief/acceptance needed (i.e., your own self-intercession), or does God's work alone cover you in any case, and save you irregardless, without any self-intercession at all on your own part?

Knock it off. Christmas is coming.

Do you know why Christmas is celebrated when it is, and who picked that date? (Hint: "Christ's Mass".) (Have a Blessed Christmas, by the way.)
27 posted on 12/07/2011 11:14:19 AM PST by Heart-Rest (The church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: Gargantua

**I was raised Catholic, through First Communion up to my Confirmation**

You are still a Catholic and always will be one, although you will have to answer for your inactive status at the present.

The word is “intercede”

The Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints are in heaven, much closer to Christ and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit than I am. So I ask them to pray for me. That’s what intercession/interceding is all about.

**Save your tortured mumbledygook **

I pity you at the moment you meet Christ when you die. Are you going to say you are sorry for “mumbledygooking” his Mother? Or will he say to you, “Go with the goats, you did not respect my Mother who brought me into the world at Christma. Begone to the darkness.” What will he say?

51 posted on 12/07/2011 3:31:51 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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