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Do Catholics and Muslims Worship the Same God?
Just For Catholics.org Excerpted then copied on gloria.tv ^ | Dr Joseph Mizzi on Just For Catholics.org

Posted on 12/09/2011 3:18:38 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor

The anti-Catholic site justforcatholics.org quotes the non-infallible Nostra Aetate of Vatican II and the non-infallible 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church (derived from Vatican II) to falsely assert that the Catholic Church officially teaches that Catholics and Muslims worship the same god.

Catholicism and Islam are monotheistic religions, that is, both believe that there is but one God. However, that does not necessarily imply that they worship the same God. Two men may be married to one woman, but that does not mean that they are married to the same woman. So, the question is whether Catholics and Muslims worship the same one God.

The modern Catholic Church has defined her relations to non-Christian religions in a document entitled Nostra Aetate. The section on Islam begins thus:

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.

While it does not state explicitly that 'the one God' adored by the Muslims is the true and living God, this seems to be the natural implication. For why would Rome commend Muslims for this belief if their God was considered a false deity? Indeed, unlike their ancestors, many modern Catholics are convinced that they and Muslims worship the same God. [...]

http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htm

Pro-Catholic Gloria.TV corrects this falsehood:

Gloria.TV – News Briefs — 09/12/2011 04:34:13:
Attendance at Islamic and Non-Catholic Worship

The abomination, which the Church has had from the very beginning for association of Catholics in the worship of Non Catholics [31], is evident from the words of St. John "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, or say to him Welcome" - II John 1:10

Suarez (one of the greatest amongst the Jesuits theologians) affirms that the reason the Apostle gives for this prohibition is verified in religious communication especially, because he, who unites himself with those outside the Church in religious worship, communicates in their wicked works. [32]

A Catholic who communicates formally in the worship of Non Catholics sins grievously against the virtue of Religion, as a false exercise of it. [33] For this reason "One is never allowed to cooperate formally in something which is intrinsically wrong objectively." [34]

St. Augustine, the great Champion of Catholic orthodoxy, reproves both actual and simulated communication in non-Catholic worship. In a letter to St. Jerome he states that one who observes the rites of Jews, or Gentiles, not only truly, but even fictitiously, has fallen into the abyss of the devil. [35]

The mind of the Church on this point was enshrined in old Code of Canon Law (1917), which stated that: " It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics." [36]

All subsequent moral theology works have simply reiterated the same point. [37]

Pius XI in dealing with this issue that was so vehement in his own day had only the following to say "Certainly such movements as these cannot gain the approval of Catholics. They are founded upon the false opinions of those who say that, since all religions equally unfold and signify- though not in the same way - the native, inborn feeling in us all through which we are borne toward God and humbly recognize His rule, therefore, all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy. The followers of this theory are not only deceived and mistaken, but since they repudiate the true religion by attacking it in its very essence, they move step by step toward naturalism and atheism. Hence it clearly follows that anyone who gives assent to such theories and undertakings utterly abandons divinely revealed religion. " [38]

The Church can never lawfully grant to Catholics permission to participate formally in non-Catholic worship. In dealing those who claim they have been given ecclesiastical permission to participate in the ceremonial rites of non Catholics Fr. Michael Muller in his well known work, "God the Teacher of Man Kind" aptly answers the question by stating "Neither any priest nor bishop, nay, not even the Pope, can give you permission to violate any of the commandments." [39]

It has been rashly stated the Mohammedans and other infidels adore the same God "together with us" [40] yet not only is this undoubtibly offensive to Catholic doctrine (as we have shown above) but it shows forth an ignorance of Islamic notion of God and their absurd doctrines. Mohammedans don't pray to their god, together with us, they pray to their false god against us! The Quran is explicit on this point as it openly states: "The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before, may Allah destroy them, how they have turned away." [41]

Ultimately we can do no better than assume to ourselves the advice of the Apostle of the Gentiles (St. Paul) himself "Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?" - II Cor. 6: 14-18.


TOPICS: Catholic; Islam
KEYWORDS: catholic; islam; mohammedanism; romancatholicism; trinitarian; trinity
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1 posted on 12/09/2011 3:18:41 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Islam is the most successful heresy in history.


2 posted on 12/09/2011 3:20:06 PM PST by Shadow44
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Muslims worship Satan. There can never be reconciliation between Christianity and Islam, so ecumenism in this situation is dangerous and a fraud.


3 posted on 12/09/2011 3:26:38 PM PST by grumpygresh (Democrats delenda est; zero sera dans l'enfer bientot.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

The answer is an obvious NO. I hate it when libs try to claim otherwise. Idiots.


4 posted on 12/09/2011 3:30:28 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Islam is a sex based religion. They can have 5 wives, and drop as any as they like to get fresh ones. Do you really think they’ll change? Paradise gets you 71-72 Virgins and all the milk and honey you can drink to keep you going with the 72 virgins. What guy in his right mind that believes that, would accept any other God? No wonder there are over a billion Muslims, I’m surprised there aren’t 5 billion. Then again, they probably reach that figure by the next century with all the kids they are having.


5 posted on 12/09/2011 3:34:50 PM PST by Bringbackthedraft ( WHO YOU ELECT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS WHO THEY APPOINT!)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
I worship the Christian God who formulated the Two Great Commandments, set forth in Matthew 27:

"37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." KJV


Love is central to Christianity.

Islam, on the other hand is focused on jihad and warfare and is more a political entity than a religion. It's stated aim is world domination.

"9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."

One can find numerous verses in the Qu'ran of similar nature. Islam is not at all like Christianity.

Lamh Foistenach Abu!
6 posted on 12/09/2011 3:39:29 PM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Michael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
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To: ConorMacNessa

George W. Bush and Karl Rove - Islam is a Religion of Peace.... Feel good nonsense from 2 lightweight thinkers. How damaging those kind of statements are...


7 posted on 12/09/2011 4:03:46 PM PST by doosee
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To: mas cerveza por favor
That article only says Catholics can’t worship with other religions. No amount of double speak removes the clear words.

# 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330] { http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#841 }

8 posted on 12/09/2011 4:04:29 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: ConorMacNessa
The most fundamental differences I see between Islam and other religions are
  1. Islam commands its members to use physical force to retaliate against any believers who renounce their faith; while some Christian church leaders may have done so in centuries past, such actions today are viewed as having been unfortunate deviations from Christ's mission. I would suggest that this distinction alone is enough to regard Islam as a false religion: for something to be voluntary, one must have the option to decline; consequently, Muslims' continued faith cannot be considered voluntary.
  2. Islam requires that its adherents revere a person whose conduct should be regarded as despicable by civilized people. I know of no other major religion which would compel its followers to worship a person whose claimed actions would be loathed by almost everyone else.
To my mind, those differences are sufficiently severe that Islam must be regarded as something fundamentally different from other religions.
9 posted on 12/09/2011 4:07:00 PM PST by supercat (Renounce Covetousness.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Vatican 2 teaches that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.

Therefore, Vatican 2 is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!


10 posted on 12/09/2011 4:08:49 PM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
The quote is from 1965, not 1994. Since 1965 we have new evidence.

ML/NJ

11 posted on 12/09/2011 4:11:39 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Islam’s “Allah: is a pagan moon god worshipped by the bedouins. Mohammed came along and declared that this god was the only one.


12 posted on 12/09/2011 4:15:38 PM PST by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Christians worship a triune God who is one God and three persons. Muslims worship a God that is one God one person. They are not the same. Not even close.


13 posted on 12/09/2011 4:20:12 PM PST by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Would the Father of Jesus command Islam to kill those who accept His son as their savior? Totally illogical and contradictory.


14 posted on 12/09/2011 4:26:02 PM PST by drypowder
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To: ml/nj; BlackElk; SumProVita
The quote is from 1965, not 1994. Since 1965 we have new evidence.

Catholics already had centuries of evidence against Muslims in 1965, but since then Catholics have seen plenty of new evidence about Modernist infiltration of Church offices. Consider this evidence of Modernist heresy:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#841

I hasten to add for any non-Catholic readers that the latest Catechism (CCC) is definitely non-infallible since it is derived from the non-infallible Vatican II council.
15 posted on 12/09/2011 4:33:27 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Shadow44

Islam is a war plan from the father of lies.


16 posted on 12/09/2011 4:52:46 PM PST by x_plus_one (Obama: Brainwashing the masses to believe that racism is a greater danger than radical Islam)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Two men may be married to one woman, but that does not mean that they are married to the same woman.

Logically, if there is just one woman, it does.

Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God? I do not worry myself with such questions because only God knows.

17 posted on 12/09/2011 4:54:45 PM PST by Prokopton (.)
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To: crghill

Correct...Islam does not believe in the trinity; they also do not believe that Jesus is son of God, they believe he was a prophet.


18 posted on 12/09/2011 5:12:58 PM PST by Engedi (Hec)
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To: Prokopton
Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God? I do not worry myself with such questions because only God knows.

Then do you have a problem with Modernists deceptively reversing Church teaching to say Catholics must believe they worship the same God as Muslims?

19 posted on 12/09/2011 5:33:26 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Nope. Roman Catholics are Trinitarian. Mohammedans are not. And I say this as a Protestant.


20 posted on 12/09/2011 5:43:10 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: mas cerveza por favor

But it is the teaching of the Catholic church so do Catholics get to choose which teachings they will accept or not?


21 posted on 12/09/2011 5:46:44 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

To the headline: NO
muslims worship a god that says sacrifice your son to me.
Catholics/Christians worship a God that says I scarified my Son for you.


22 posted on 12/09/2011 5:47:33 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Then do you have a problem with Modernists deceptively reversing Church teaching to say Catholics must believe they worship the same God as Muslims?

I do not concern myself about what "modernists" or anyone else says about things they no nothing about.

23 posted on 12/09/2011 5:57:49 PM PST by Prokopton (.)
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To: Prokopton
I do not concern myself about what "modernists" or anyone else says about things they no know nothing about.
24 posted on 12/09/2011 6:04:32 PM PST by Prokopton (.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
I hasten to add for any non-Catholic readers that the latest Catechism (CCC) is definitely non-infallible since it is derived from the non-infallible Vatican II council

Are you a sedevacantist?
25 posted on 12/09/2011 9:19:04 PM PST by armydoc
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To: mas cerveza por favor

>> “Do Catholics and Muslims Worship the Same God?” <<

.
Probably, but its not the same one that Christians and Jews worship.


26 posted on 12/09/2011 9:31:44 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: armydoc
I hasten to add for any non-Catholic readers that the latest Catechism (CCC) is definitely non-infallible since it is derived from the non-infallible Vatican II council

Are you a sedevacantist?

No. Msgr. Federico Ocariz, representing the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine, recently published an essay stating that the Vatican II council is not infallible. Here is a Catholic World Report summary of that essay:

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/1011/vatican_newspaper_addresses_traditionalist_concerns.aspx

What do you think of the Vatican II contradiction of previous infallible doctrine concerning Islam?

27 posted on 12/09/2011 9:43:13 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: editor-surveyor

That's terrible.

Please, there is plenty enough acrimony on these threads as it is.

All in all, there is much less that separates many (most?) Christians from one another, than there is that unites them.

I'm not arguing for unity, just for the sake of unity. I'm talking about the story of mankind, man's separation from God, and how Christ's sacrifice bridges the distance between what we are (and can be like-- wicked indeed!) and the Holy Creator.

Think on those things, and the goodness of God, even as we appear to be entering into times that try men's souls... I'm asking not only you, but others too, (Catholics included) to refrain from taking the low road, refrain from cartoon characterization and dehumanization.

The days are getting short. If not for all of us, all of the world all together (a possible second coming, not too far distant?) then at least for each of us individually, and separately.

We will all stand and be made to account for our words, eventually.

There is unity in belief of THAT, isn't there?

My apologies to you, for you being one that I've chosen to react towards in this fashion. It's not just you who arguably could found at fault, but a great many others also, from either perspective, here on this forum. I'm not pretending to be completely innocent of such evil, idle talk myself. But I'm convicted that I personally need to repent of doing so, myself. If you could help me in this, I would appreciate it.

28 posted on 12/09/2011 10:08:38 PM PST by 7MMmag (Five cents, please...)
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To: Engedi

Right...our doctrine of Trinity means that we believe Christ is God! This belief is not shared with any other religion be it Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. Many of the worlds religions will say nice things about Jesus (Islam for example). But only Christians bow the knee to him and confess with their tongues that he is God and should be worshipped as such.


29 posted on 12/10/2011 1:20:41 AM PST by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

From the article: “Instead, he says, the teachings of the Magisterium must be received as teachings given by pastors who are divinely guided.

This does not mean that the pastors are always infallible, but they are divinely guided even when they are not teaching infallibly, and so their teachings cannot be dismissed as merely temporary teachings or official opinions.”

Either you accept the Authority of the Church...or not.

By the way, is it possible that you are misunderstanding exactly what was stated? Why don’t you simply, as the author, Jimmy Akin, has stated...pray for the success of the Church in trying to heal any division/misunderstanding?


30 posted on 12/10/2011 6:00:47 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: crghill

There are lorry crashes at all low bridges.


31 posted on 12/10/2011 7:16:04 AM PST by humphitwhamit (oh no!)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Even if one holds that Vatican II is completely infallible, it can be infallible only in its exposition of Catholic doctrine. Asserting that Muslims worship the same God as Christians is making an assertion about the doctrine and beliefs of a non-Catholic group. Therefore, neither that assertion, nor any other assertion about the beliefs of a non-Catholic religion or group is protected by the charism of infallibility.
32 posted on 12/10/2011 8:07:00 AM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: crghill
Is rejecting Christ the same as rejecting God?

If not, why not?

33 posted on 12/10/2011 8:32:01 AM PST by DNA.2012
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To: DNA.2012

Yes as Christ is God.


34 posted on 12/10/2011 10:29:14 AM PST by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: 7MMmag

Face it FRiend, catholics worship an ashta proxy in “Mary,” not the one true God, along with a pantheon of other humans and icons that they call “saints.” All of the attributes that they claim for “mary” are the ancient attributes of Ashta (or Ishtar, Astarte, Isis)

If you feel any oneness with that mess, go for it, but I do not.


35 posted on 12/10/2011 10:31:00 AM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: CynicalBear

It’s sad to see so many of them trying to deny what their catechism teaches...


36 posted on 12/10/2011 12:07:12 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
I hasten to add for any non-Catholic readers that the latest Catechism (CCC) is definitely non-infallible since it is derived from the non-infallible Vatican II council.

And let me guess, that argument holds true until the next time you guys want to point to your catechism as infallible...

It would seem that whoever wrote your newer catechism deemed it infallible...And it seems your religion accepted it as infallible...

But of course your catechism, new or old is fallible...And what is so back slapping funny is that until today, you guys tried to defend that position of your catechism with some of the craziest excuses...

But hey, what's your pope say about this new declaration???

37 posted on 12/10/2011 12:28:26 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: 7MMmag; editor-surveyor

We would rather stand before God having pointed out error than to not have done anything. The go along to get along will one day lead to a one world religion spoken of in Revelation.


38 posted on 12/10/2011 12:31:59 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: mas cerveza por favor
No. Msgr. Federico Ocariz, representing the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine, recently published an essay stating that the Vatican II council is not infallible. Here is a Catholic World Report summary of that essay:

Yet every other time, you guys claim that all these people that hang out at the vatican are not the voice of the pope...

So when your pope corrects your catechism, then, we can take it as your official church teaching...

39 posted on 12/10/2011 12:32:27 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool

I’m sure it comes as a shock to most of the Catholics.


40 posted on 12/10/2011 12:33:43 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: SumProVita; Campion; CynicalBear
From the article: “Instead, he says, the teachings of the Magisterium must be received as teachings given by pastors who are divinely guided. This does not mean that the pastors are always infallible, but they are divinely guided even when they are not teaching infallibly, and so their teachings cannot be dismissed as merely temporary teachings or official opinions.”

In the article Msgr. Ocariz considers non-infallible teaching in the context of "various levels of assent owed" where infallible teaching is owed a greater level of assent than non-infallible teaching. Let us apply this principle by comparing the Vatican II--Nostra Aetate statement:

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.
and the CCC statement:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
to the long list of previously defined infallible teachings as typified by:
Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum--1914: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
The non-infallible Nostra Aetate (and derived catechism) appears diametrically opposed to the infallible Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum. If so, the Catholic's assent owed to Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum supersedes his assent owed to Nostra Aetate.

Either you accept the Authority of the Church...or not.

Indeed. Then do we agree that Church Authority requires assent to Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum over Nostra Aetate?

41 posted on 12/10/2011 12:50:27 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Campion
Asserting that Muslims worship the same God as Christians is making an assertion about the doctrine and beliefs of a non-Catholic group. Therefore, neither that assertion, nor any other assertion about the beliefs of a non-Catholic religion or group is protected by the charism of infallibility.

But yet are you not obligated to believe in and abide by your catechism??? I find it unusual to find Catholics who will publicly state that any part of the pope approved catechism is wrong...

42 posted on 12/10/2011 12:50:54 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Do you give assent to Pope Benedict as the true head of the Church at the present time?


43 posted on 12/10/2011 1:11:01 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: mas cerveza por favor

And permit me to repeat the unanswered questions:

By the way, is it possible that you are misunderstanding exactly what was stated? Why don’t you simply, as the author, Jimmy Akin, has stated...pray for the success of the Church in trying to heal any division/misunderstanding?


44 posted on 12/10/2011 1:14:15 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Iscool
It would seem that whoever wrote your newer catechism deemed it infallible...And it seems your religion accepted it as infallible... But of course your catechism, new or old is fallible...

Infallible doctrine is defined by papal encyclical and doctrinal councils like Vatican I (and unlike Vatican II). Catechisms often contain infallible teaching but may also contain non-infallible teaching and even errors. The CCC has been revised several times in just a few years.

And what is so back slapping funny is that until today, you guys tried to defend that position of your catechism with some of the craziest excuses...

Genuine Catholic doctrine is considered offensive to the modern mind. Vatican II outwardly appeared to be a pathetic attempt at making the Church more agreeable in the eyes of the outside world. In fact, Vatican II was more likely an attack by hostile infiltrators aiming to subvert the Church mission. Mainline Protestant denominations have suffered similar attacks. Crazy excuses are necessary for anyone seeking to square the circle of Vatican II.

45 posted on 12/10/2011 1:42:56 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Iscool

“I find it unusual to find Catholics who will publicly state that any part of the pope approved catechism is wrong...”

Actually, it’s not that unusual. The Enemy, who wishes to divide, has been fomenting the same type of nonsense throughout history.

Screwtape, teaching his demonic pupil, Wormwood, how to properly tempt humans in the brilliant SCREWTAPE LETTERS, by C.S. Lewis, instructs his student this way:

“By putting the accent there, we can keep their attention away from pursuing real righteousness and the fruit of the Spirit. In a word, the strategy we will employ is to make them legalists.”

Many still fall for this tactic. ;-(


46 posted on 12/10/2011 2:51:05 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: SumProVita
By the way, is it possible that you are misunderstanding exactly what was stated?

Are you expecting an official clarification that will resolve the apparent conflicts between Vatican II and previous infallible doctrine? I am all ears but it has been more than 40 years since the end of the Vatican II council. Until there is clarification, one can only go by the surface meanings of conciliar documents.

The anti-Catholic justforcatholics.org used the apparent liberalism of Nostra Aetate to attack Church teaching. Was Gloria.TV wrong to defend against this attack by appealing to Catholic Tradition that contradicts Nostra Aetate?

The Church has never taught according to Gnostic interpretations of cryptic of statements that mean something different than what they say. Catholic doctrine has always been out in the open--accessible to all--in your face--take it or leave it.

Non-Catholics find Vatican II contradictory and wide open to attack. The apparent (heretical) liberalism of Vatican II has not been clarified for more than 40 years. Given the contradictions between the liberal council and infallible Catholic Tradition, should orthodox Catholics choose to defend the former over the latter?

Why don’t you simply, as the author, Jimmy Akin, has stated...pray for the success of the Church in trying to heal any division/misunderstanding?

I do that frequently along with Rosary prayers. I pray for graces of doctrinal unity and clear thinking to overcome division and misunderstanding.

Do you give assent to Pope Benedict as the true head of the Church at the present time?

Yes. Have I said anything to indicate otherwise?

47 posted on 12/10/2011 3:09:31 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Campion; Iscool; SumProVita
Asserting that Muslims worship the same God as Christians is making an assertion about the doctrine and beliefs of a non-Catholic group. Therefore, neither that assertion, nor any other assertion about the beliefs of a non-Catholic religion or group is protected by the charism of infallibility.

The Church does not claim competence on doctrines of particular non-Catholic religions. However, she does define important differences between the Catholic religion and non-Catholic religions in general.

The Church has always taught that all other religions are false and non-salvivic. This teaching is contradicted or at least obfuscated regarding Islam by Vatican II-Nostra Aetate and #841 of the CCC. Thus Muslims are cruelly misled about the necessity of their conversion to the Catholic Faith.

48 posted on 12/10/2011 3:31:36 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Honestly, I think you need to get some teaching from good sources within the clergy who are faithful to the Teaching Magisterium. You might talk to your parish pastor about how to go about that where you live.

In the meantime, please remember that modern popes are not the only popes who approved this teaching.

Think about St. Gregory VII (Pope: 1073 to 1085) and what he said to the Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania:

“... we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world” [St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.]

Was Gregory VII in error? Vatican II is stating nothing different than what he stated in the 11th century.

What about a good Muslim who sincerely LOVES God and is not familiar with Jesus Christ personally? Who will judge him?

(Remember only God judges the evil heart from the good one. We also don’t know what God may reveal to an individual as he is dying. Might Jesus reveal Himself to that man as he is dying?)

Regardless, this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t share the Risen Christ with them while they are living. The call to do so is CLEAR. God wishes that all be enriched by the full Truth. With Christ...obviously they can be empowered to ensure that even more souls (who might otherwise succumb to evil) make it to heaven.

If you read all of Nostra Aetate, you will see clearly that Islam is NOT considered equal to Christianity.
In addition, you need to read the other contextual sections of the Catechism. It makes it clear. The Church states unequivocally that Jesus is the WAY and that salvation is only found through HIM.


49 posted on 12/10/2011 4:34:09 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: SumProVita
Honestly, I think you need to get some teaching from good sources within the clergy who are faithful to the Teaching Magisterium. You might talk to your parish pastor about how to go about that where you live.

I have done so.

Think about St. Gregory VII (Pope: 1073 to 1085) and what he said to the Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania: “... we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world” [St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.] Was Gregory VII in error? Vatican II is stating nothing different than what he stated in the 11th century.

Popes do not redefine official Catholic doctrine in ambiguous diplomatic flattery to non-Catholic fellow heads of state. The pope was likely negotiating to avoid a war. Not every utterance from a pope in any situation is taken as doctrine. Did Gregory VII say anything like this in encyclical format? The 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia does not even mention this supposed letter of Pope Gregory VII. Was this supposed letter ever cited in Church documents prior to Vatican II?

What about a good Muslim who sincerely LOVES God and is not familiar with Jesus Christ personally? Who will judge him?

There is no salvation except through Jesus Christ. As Catholics, we believe He founded His Catholic Church as the sacramental means for receiving that salvation. If it is possible for a Muslim to be saved, it would be much more difficult outside the Church and would only happen in spite of his false religion not because of it. The passage on Muslims previously quoted from Nostra Aetate is diplomatic flattery, not doctrine.

If you read all of Nostra Aetate, you will see clearly that Islam is NOT considered equal to Christianity. In addition, you need to read the other contextual sections of the Catechism. It makes it clear. The Church states unequivocally that Jesus is the WAY and that salvation is only found through HIM.

Yes, Vatican II documents contradict themselves in many places. That just makes these documents all the more nonsensical. Doctrine is misunderstood if it is not presented with clarity and consistency, as we have witnessed in abundance since the disaster of Vatican II.

50 posted on 12/10/2011 5:57:04 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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