Do Catholics and Muslims Worship the Same God?

From the article: “Instead, he says, the teachings of the Magisterium must be received as teachings given by pastors who are divinely guided. This does not mean that the pastors are always infallible, but they are divinely guided even when they are not teaching infallibly, and so their teachings cannot be dismissed as merely temporary teachings or official opinions.”

In the article Msgr. Ocariz considers non-infallible teaching in the context of "various levels of assent owed" where infallible teaching is owed a greater level of assent than non-infallible teaching. Let us apply this principle by comparing the Vatican II--Nostra Aetate statement:

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.

and the CCC statement:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

to the long list of previously defined infallible teachings as typified by:

Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum--1914: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

The non-infallible Nostra Aetate (and derived catechism) appears diametrically opposed to the infallible Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum. If so, the Catholic's assent owed to Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum supersedes his assent owed to Nostra Aetate.

Either you accept the Authority of the Church...or not.

Indeed. Then do we agree that Church Authority requires assent to Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum over Nostra Aetate?

Asserting that Muslims worship the same God as Christians is making an assertion about the doctrine and beliefs of a non-Catholic group. Therefore, neither that assertion, nor any other assertion about the beliefs of a non-Catholic religion or group is protected by the charism of infallibility.

But yet are you not obligated to believe in and abide by your catechism??? I find it unusual to find Catholics who will publicly state that any part of the pope approved catechism is wrong...

Do you give assent to Pope Benedict as the true head of the Church at the present time?

And permit me to repeat the unanswered questions:

By the way, is it possible that you are misunderstanding exactly what was stated? Why don’t you simply, as the author, Jimmy Akin, has stated...pray for the success of the Church in trying to heal any division/misunderstanding?

It would seem that whoever wrote your newer catechism deemed it infallible...And it seems your religion accepted it as infallible... But of course your catechism, new or old is fallible...

Infallible doctrine is defined by papal encyclical and doctrinal councils like Vatican I (and unlike Vatican II). Catechisms often contain infallible teaching but may also contain non-infallible teaching and even errors. The CCC has been revised several times in just a few years.

And what is so back slapping funny is that until today, you guys tried to defend that position of your catechism with some of the craziest excuses...

Genuine Catholic doctrine is considered offensive to the modern mind. Vatican II outwardly appeared to be a pathetic attempt at making the Church more agreeable in the eyes of the outside world. In fact, Vatican II was more likely an attack by hostile infiltrators aiming to subvert the Church mission. Mainline Protestant denominations have suffered similar attacks. Crazy excuses are necessary for anyone seeking to square the circle of Vatican II.

“I find it unusual to find Catholics who will publicly state that any part of the pope approved catechism is wrong...”

Actually, it’s not that unusual. The Enemy, who wishes to divide, has been fomenting the same type of nonsense throughout history.

Screwtape, teaching his demonic pupil, Wormwood, how to properly tempt humans in the brilliant SCREWTAPE LETTERS, by C.S. Lewis, instructs his student this way:

“By putting the accent there, we can keep their attention away from pursuing real righteousness and the fruit of the Spirit. In a word, the strategy we will employ is to make them legalists.”

Many still fall for this tactic. ;-(

By the way, is it possible that you are misunderstanding exactly what was stated?

Are you expecting an official clarification that will resolve the apparent conflicts between Vatican II and previous infallible doctrine? I am all ears but it has been more than 40 years since the end of the Vatican II council. Until there is clarification, one can only go by the surface meanings of conciliar documents.

The anti-Catholic justforcatholics.org used the apparent liberalism of Nostra Aetate to attack Church teaching. Was Gloria.TV wrong to defend against this attack by appealing to Catholic Tradition that contradicts Nostra Aetate?

The Church has never taught according to Gnostic interpretations of cryptic of statements that mean something different than what they say. Catholic doctrine has always been out in the open--accessible to all--in your face--take it or leave it.

Non-Catholics find Vatican II contradictory and wide open to attack. The apparent (heretical) liberalism of Vatican II has not been clarified for more than 40 years. Given the contradictions between the liberal council and infallible Catholic Tradition, should orthodox Catholics choose to defend the former over the latter?

Why don’t you simply, as the author, Jimmy Akin, has stated...pray for the success of the Church in trying to heal any division/misunderstanding?

I do that frequently along with Rosary prayers. I pray for graces of doctrinal unity and clear thinking to overcome division and misunderstanding.

Do you give assent to Pope Benedict as the true head of the Church at the present time?

Yes. Have I said anything to indicate otherwise?

Asserting that Muslims worship the same God as Christians is making an assertion about the doctrine and beliefs of a non-Catholic group. Therefore, neither that assertion, nor any other assertion about the beliefs of a non-Catholic religion or group is protected by the charism of infallibility.

The Church does not claim competence on doctrines of particular non-Catholic religions. However, she does define important differences between the Catholic religion and non-Catholic religions in general.

The Church has always taught that all other religions are false and non-salvivic. This teaching is contradicted or at least obfuscated regarding Islam by Vatican II-Nostra Aetate and #841 of the CCC. Thus Muslims are cruelly misled about the necessity of their conversion to the Catholic Faith.

Honestly, I think you need to get some teaching from good sources within the clergy who are faithful to the Teaching Magisterium. You might talk to your parish pastor about how to go about that where you live.

In the meantime, please remember that modern popes are not the only popes who approved this teaching.

Think about St. Gregory VII (Pope: 1073 to 1085) and what he said to the Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania:

“... we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world” [St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.]

Was Gregory VII in error? Vatican II is stating nothing different than what he stated in the 11th century.

What about a good Muslim who sincerely LOVES God and is not familiar with Jesus Christ personally? Who will judge him?

(Remember only God judges the evil heart from the good one. We also don’t know what God may reveal to an individual as he is dying. Might Jesus reveal Himself to that man as he is dying?)

Regardless, this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t share the Risen Christ with them while they are living. The call to do so is CLEAR. God wishes that all be enriched by the full Truth. With Christ...obviously they can be empowered to ensure that even more souls (who might otherwise succumb to evil) make it to heaven.

If you read all of Nostra Aetate, you will see clearly that Islam is NOT considered equal to Christianity.
In addition, you need to read the other contextual sections of the Catechism. It makes it clear. The Church states unequivocally that Jesus is the WAY and that salvation is only found through HIM.

Honestly, I think you need to get some teaching from good sources within the clergy who are faithful to the Teaching Magisterium. You might talk to your parish pastor about how to go about that where you live.

I have done so.

Think about St. Gregory VII (Pope: 1073 to 1085) and what he said to the Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania: “... we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world” [St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.] Was Gregory VII in error? Vatican II is stating nothing different than what he stated in the 11th century.

Popes do not redefine official Catholic doctrine in ambiguous diplomatic flattery to non-Catholic fellow heads of state. The pope was likely negotiating to avoid a war. Not every utterance from a pope in any situation is taken as doctrine. Did Gregory VII say anything like this in encyclical format? The 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia does not even mention this supposed letter of Pope Gregory VII. Was this supposed letter ever cited in Church documents prior to Vatican II?

What about a good Muslim who sincerely LOVES God and is not familiar with Jesus Christ personally? Who will judge him?

There is no salvation except through Jesus Christ. As Catholics, we believe He founded His Catholic Church as the sacramental means for receiving that salvation. If it is possible for a Muslim to be saved, it would be much more difficult outside the Church and would only happen in spite of his false religion not because of it. The passage on Muslims previously quoted from Nostra Aetate is diplomatic flattery, not doctrine.

If you read all of Nostra Aetate, you will see clearly that Islam is NOT considered equal to Christianity. In addition, you need to read the other contextual sections of the Catechism. It makes it clear. The Church states unequivocally that Jesus is the WAY and that salvation is only found through HIM.

Yes, Vatican II documents contradict themselves in many places. That just makes these documents all the more nonsensical. Doctrine is misunderstood if it is not presented with clarity and consistency, as we have witnessed in abundance since the disaster of Vatican II.

Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?

By Raymond Taouk

“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her” - Pope Gregory XVI [1]

The false notion that all religions who give homage to a deity of any sort somehow worship the true “God” but simply “under another form” is one that is presently being propagated in order lead the Church down the smooth path of apostasy in the name of ecumenism.

The Catholic position on this is precisely opposed to this proposition, which is set forth by the modernist element in the Catholic hierarchy today.

Objectively:

From a purely objective point of view, regardless of the doctrinal teaching professed by Mohammedans and Catholics, it is evident that Almighty God is the God over both. God exists. His existence is not dependent on the acknowledgement of mankind that He exists. Nor is God’s existence dependent upon any religion. He is the Creator and the Providence of the Universe: the whole of creation, the entire cosmos, of all existing things, whether they be angels, human beings, animals or plants, animate or inanimate. He is also the Savior and the Judge of the living and the dead, having redeemed mankind and must judge Catholics and Mohammedans, believers and atheists. Their god is but another strange god. On every essential point concerning the true God and the nature of the true God, the Mohammedan belief radically and seriously conflicts with the established and revealed Dogma of the Catholic Church.

Subjectively:

Again from a purely subjective thinking the Muslims might think and believe with a firm confidence that they are worshiping the true God, “Allah” yet the reality is quite the contrary as objectively speaking we can only affirm the contrary. This point is clear from Scripture “Whosoever does not continue in the doctrine of Christ does not have God”. - II St. Jn 1:9

The teaching and the beliefs of Catholicism and Mohammedanism are different and contrary. Their concept of, and their approach to God, diverge and conflict. Catholics indeed accept as dogmatic truth the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation and the Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Moslems vehemently and vociferously deny the Blessed Trinity [2], the Incarnation [3], the Crucifixion of our Divine Lord and the Divinity of Christ [4]. The Mohammedans have such a carnal notion of heaven that St. Alphonsus did not hesitate to declare “The Mohammedan Paradise, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there.” [5]

The Catholic and Christian God is ‘The Trinity,’ and our Lord Jesus Christ, the second Person of that Trinity, is the Creator and One true and merciful God. Despite monotheistic appearances, we do not have the same God; we do not have the same mediator. How then can it be that “ together with us they (The Moslems) adore the one, merciful God.” [6] This is incredible!

The Catholic Teaching: “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” - Heb. 11:6

Mohammedans are infidels for “broadly speaking, infidels are those who do not possess the true faith; while in the strict sense infidels are the un-baptized”[7]. They are divided into monotheists (Jews and Moslems), polytheists (Hindus, Buddhists, etc.), and atheists.

From a Catholic perspective the Islamic worship is another form of false worship given to a “strange god” for as we read in scripture “All the gods of the Nations are Idols” - I Para 16:26

It would be blasphemous to declare that these false religions are the working of God. On the Contrary ‘’all faithful disciples of Jesus Christ well know that the false religions are only instruments of the devil to deceive souls and place them beyond Salvation” - [8a]

Pope Pius X long ago put forward that the modernist if they take logically there doctrine, would have no grounds for denying the Muslims there “experience” of “ god” as being just as valid as that of another “believer” and hence he states:

“Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? [8b]

What a prophetic insight, Pope Pius X was so accurate that not even the Modernist came to deny what he stated, but only affirm the above with great audacity.

The Baltimore Catechism (No. 3) states as follows:

Q. 1148. How do we offer God false worship?

A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned.

Islam clearly comes under the notion of false worship that (objectively speaking) is not render to God.

The psalmist tells us that “All the Gods of the Gentiles are Devils” (Psalm 96:5) and hence to whom do they render their worship? The Scriptures tell us clearly “ They provoked him by strange gods, and stirred him up to anger, with their abominations. They sacrificed to devils and not to God: to gods whom they knew not: that were newly come up, whom their fathers worshipped not. “ (Deut 32:16- 17 Cf. also Baruch 4:7)

They “sacrificed to devils and not to God” - regardless of whether or not they might have believed they were rendering homage to the True God, the reality is quite the contrary! It is an erroneous proposition to qualify a prayer addressed to the devil as authentic prayer.

Islam is a false Religion. A false religion is any non-Christian religion “in so far as it is not the religion that God revealed and wants to see practiced. Moreover, every non-Catholic Christian sect is false in so far as it neither accepts nor faithfully practices the entire content of Revelation.” [9]

Christ tells us who the true worshipers shall be: “But the hour cometh and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth.” (Jn. 4:23).

These words go directly against the terminology now used by the modernist hierarchy. They speak from a subjective position wishing to dogmatize and “opinion” which goes directly against the mind of the Church on this point.

This religious subjectivism, which she has always condemned under the names of indifferentism or latitudinarianism, and which “seeks to justify itself under the pretended claims of liberty, failing to recognize the rights of objective truth which are made manifest either by the lights of reason or by Revelation.” [10]

This subjectivism only leads to that Religious indifferentism, which is “one of the most deleterious heresies” and which “places all religions on an equal footing,” inevitably leads one to consider the truth of religious belief as merely a matter of utility for a well-regulated life.... “One ends by considering religion as an entirely individual thing which can be adapted to the dispositions of each one, letting everyone form his own personal religion, and by concluding that all the religions are good even though they contradict each other.” [11]

The Church is not concerned with the subjective dispositions of men. This is for God to Judge. The Church is concerned with objective facts. Her judgments are objective. Pope St. Pius X, for this reason declared that “those who die as infidels are damned.” [11a]

1907 “In answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved,wrote:’It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned.’ ”

Revelation is a reality, a fact, a truth accredited by God by sure signs. This revelation of God can in no way be placed on the same footing as those erroneous beliefs of infidels. We may say that the Mohammedans worship a false god, the god of their own making, which a deviation from the right worship of the true God.

Further we might rightly ask with St. Paul, “How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed?” - Rom 10: 14

Although the modern terminology used might not seem to be “explicitly heretical” in nevertheless leads one down this path to apostasy. This vague terminology, which has been employed to put forward an erroneous notion of the faith so that we may be deceived along the path of syncretism. Yves Marsaudon, in his book Ecumenism as seen by a Traditional Freemason, commented favorably on the ecumenism that was nurtured at Vatican II. He said:

“Catholics and especially the conservatives must not forget that all roads lead to God. And they will have to accept that this courageous idea of free-thinking, which we can really call a revolution, pouring forth from our Masonic lodges has spread magnificently over the dome of Saint Peter’s.” [12]

This is precisely path of deception to which the enemies of the Church hope to direct her. For this reason St. Pius X, who could see where this disorientation in precise terminology was leading, required every would-be Catholic priest to recite the following words at the feet of his Ordinary:

“I condemn and reject premises from which it follows that dogmas are either false or doubtful”. [13]

The Council of Florence, clearly sets down the four notes of heresy as follows:

1) a pertinacious adherence to teachings expressly contradictory to that which has been defined by the Church;

2) an opinion opposed to a doctrine not explicitly defined by the Church nor clearly proposed dogmatically as an article of Faith;

3) a proposition that, although not directly contradictory to the Faith, nonetheless necessarily entails logical consequences against it; and

4) a speculation which reaches a certain degree of probability of being against the Faith.

The Modernist’s in using these subjective terms to formulate their erroneous notions that “We together with the Muslims worship the same God” go directly against the above statements of the Council of Florence. This formulation works directly against the Churches dogma “Outside the Church there is No Salvation” [14]

Pope Leo XIII, affirms in his encyclical “Satis Cognitum”: “Nothing is more dangerous than the heretics who, while conserving almost all the remainder of the Church’s teaching intact, corrupt with a single word, like a drop of poison, the purity and the simplicity of the faith which we have received through tradition from God and through the Apostles.”

Although it is true to say that the reason that those outside the Church are not saved is not purely because they worship a false ‘god’ nevertheless there is still a clear connection. When Christ states, “No one comes to the Father but through me” (Jn. 14:6), this precisely means, if you don’t posses Christ, you can’t posses the Father (God) for Christ is that door to the Father. Hence without Christ there is no salvation from God. The relation is evident. Again this is confirmed by St. Irenaeus who wrote, “Thus, without the Holy Spirit, we cannot see the Word of God; and without the Son no one can go to the Father.” [15a]

The only authentic prayer is true prayer addressed to the true God. Pope Leo XIII declares without hesitation that “the fitting and devout worship of God, which is to be found chiefly in the divine sacrifice and in the dispensation of the sacraments, as well as salutary laws and discipline . . . The (Catholic) Church alone offers to the human race that religion” [15b]

Pope Pius XI declares the same saying that “In her (the Catholic Church) alone is Christ believed with a faith whole and entire, worshiped with sincere homage of adoration, and loved with the constant flame of ardent Charity” [15c]

What happened to the 1st Commandment?

I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt not have strange gods before me....Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them...” (Ex. 20:2-5).

If all religions worship the true God by simply claiming to be doing so, then one could not violate the 1st Commandment since all worship of any “god” would be tantamount to worshiping the true “God” according to the post the modernist element in the hierarchy, yet this would not only render the 1st Commandment obsolete but make it seem as though God had given us and absurd command. God does not command anything in vain.

The first commandment is not optional. A man cannot worship in any way that which he does not believe in, for the Law of Praying determines the law of believing, and vice-versa. If Mohammedans believe in a one-person deity, that is what they worship, and in no way can we logically argue that they worship with us the Holy Trinity.

We are not unfamiliar with the notion that claims that they implicitly worship the trinity, yet we cannot maintain this from an objective stand point for the simple reason that we can not hold that one worships implicitly what he explicitly rejects.

In our day and age it is often too easily forgotten that all non-Catholic worship is offensive to God and clearly violates the first commandment. This is because the “first commandment may be broken by giving to a creature the honor which belongs to God alone or by false worship.” [16a]

The Church has always regarded the worship of Non Catholics as mere acts of superstitions since “there are four kinds of superstition, namely, illegitimate worship of the true God, idolatry, divination, and superstitious practices. The first consists in a false worship, though applied to the living God; for instance, if you worship Him (God) according to the Mosaic law, which is contrary to all the precepts of the Gospel; or if you adopt a new religion in opposition to the doctrine if the universal Church.” [16b] Hence it is clear that “any public worship of the true God, outside the Catholic Church constitutes a superstitious worship of God as no other Church is authorized to give public worship to God. [16c]

Religion has an intellectual foundation, that is, it is based on knowledge. To be true religion its basis must be truth. The basis must be true both speculatively and practically. In other words, true religion must be based on a correct knowledge of God as existing and worthy of all honor, and of the manner and obligation of worshipping Him. On the other hand, religion is false if what is not God is considered to be God, and worshipped as God, or if there is error in the worship of the true God. Therefore, God is not truly worshipped when erroneous signs are used in His worship, as those of the Jews, or when superfluous ceremonies are employed, as by pagans and may heretics. [16d]

Although subjectively, it is the virtue of religion which prompts a man to render to God the worship and reverence that is His by right. [16e]

It is to be noted that an act based on a false religion cannot be really an act of virtue. For a virtue requires a morally good work. But in the cult (worship) of a false god, or in the false and superstitious worship of the true God, there can be no moral goodness, since such worship is opposed to right reason. [16f]

St. Pope Pius X, truly the Pope of our Age, could see where such absurd reason of the Modernists was leading the Church as he affirmed:

“... a great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, nor discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world the reign of legalized cunning and force, the oppression of the weak, and of those who toil and suffer.” [17a]

True ecumenism with the Muslims

“Those who have learned theology well,” says St. Basil, “will not allow even one iota of Catholic dogmas to be betrayed. They will, if necessary, willingly undergo any kind of death in their defense.” [17b]

One of the greatest frauds presented to us by a great number of the current hierarchy is the false notion of ecumenism, which in reality is not ecumenism but simple “syncretism” going by the name of “ecumenism. True Ecumenism requires all those outside the Church to come to the Ark of Salvation so that they may not perish.

True ecumenism can be effectively defined as follows:

“The unity of Christians cannot otherwise be obtained than by securing the return of the separated to the one true Church of Christ from which they once unhappily withdrew. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, that stands forth before all and that by the will of its Founder will remain forever the same as when He Himself established it for the salvation of all mankind.” [18]

This has been the constant teaching of the Church. Holy Mother Church has always taught that true unity cannot be effected, except by a unity in faith and government. [19]

Pope Pius IX condemned in his syllabus of errors the following false notions:

“Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.” (Proposition XV).

“Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation.” (Proposition XVI).

The real problem with this false ecumenism (which lead to indifferentism) is not only the fact that Catholics are being deceived but in the same process so are the infidels and non-believers and they sadly continue on the road to perdition without being told to recant their errors.

Catholics often forget that those faithful living on earth come under the title of “Church Militant”. What is a Catholic who does not confess his faith or worse yet a Catholic who does not believe his faith?

St. Peter Canisius puts it this way: “Who is to be called a Christian? He who confesses the doctrine of Christ and His Church. Hence, he is truly a Christian thoroughly condemns and detests, the Jewish, Mohammedan, and the heretical cults and sects.” [20]

What did St. Peter Mavimenus tell the Mohammedans? Did he say, “We worship the same God, all is well” No! He told them the truth, he put it this way to them “Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed.” [21]

Again we read that Blessed Nicholas Tavilich was just as stern as he openly states, “You Mohammedans are in a state of everlasting damnation. Your Koran is not God’s law nor is it revealed by Him. Far from being a good thing, your law is utterly evil. It is founded neither in the Old Testament nor in the New. In it are lies, foolish things, buffooneries, contradictions, and much that leads not to virtue and goodness but to evil and to all manner of vice.” [22]

St. Alphonsus attests to the fact how the Holy Monk St. Goerge of San Saba openly confessed to the Mohammedans: “But the holy monk (St. George of San Saba) having declared that Mahomet was a disciple of the devil, and that his followers were in a state of perdition, he also was condemned (to martyrdom) with his companions.” [23]

The same we read in the testimony of the five disciples of St. Francis of Assisi, who when reproached by the followers of Koran for preaching against Mohammed, simply responded by saying “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us” [23a]

Further we read in the life of St. John Vianney how he stated openly to a Protestant who believed that his worship rendered to God should do him just as well in his Protestant Sect as it would have in the Catholic faith, The Saint responded to him with the contrary advice saying “My friend, there are not two ways of serving Our Lord; there is only one good way, and it is to serve Him as He wishes to be served”.[24]

This is the truth we must speak in charity and honesty to these lost souls who without the grace and redemption of Christ can’t be saved for By nature, men are “children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3); by Him, we have been reconciled with the Father (Col. 1:20), and it is only by faith in Him that we can have the boldness to approach God with entire confidence (Eph. 3:12). To Him was given all power in heaven and on earth (Mt. 28:18), and at His name every knee must bend, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (Phil. 2:10,11). No one goes to the Father save by Him (Jn. 14:6), and there is no other name under heaven given to man by which he must be saved (Acts 4:12). He is the Light that enlightens every man who comes into the world (Jn.1:9), and whoever does not follow Him wanders in darkness (Jn. 8:12). Who is not with Him is against Him (Mt. 13:30), and who does not honor Him also dishonors His Father who sent Him (as the Jews do) (Jn. 5:23).

Christ says, “ Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No I tell you but division?” With the truth, division must come. This should not dishearten the man of God for “If God is for us, who is against us” - Rom 8:31

Salvation and Ignorance- “He that doth not believe is already judged.” Jn, 3:18; Mk 16:16

Primarily it is important to we keep in mind that no one is save by ignorance, if anything we must boldly affirm the very opposite. Pope St. Pius X clearly affirms this saying: “We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. And so, Our Predecessor Benedict XIV had just cause to write: “We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.” [25]

St. Thomas Aquanis States “ But through unbelief man is separated most from God: because he has no true knowledge of God. Nor can anyone in any way know God who holds a false opinion of Him” [26]

Although the Church makes a distinction between voluntary infidels in which one knowingly rejects the faith and involuntary infidels in which the offender is ignorant of the true faith.

Those who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity, but commit other grievous sins, are all those un-baptized persons who never had an opportunity of knowing the true religion, or of becoming aware of the obligation of seeking and embracing it, but who do not live up to the dictates of their conscience. This class of infidels will be lost, not on account of their infidelity, which was no sin for them, but on account of other grievous sins, which they committed against their conscience. “For whosoever have sinned without the law,” says Saint Paul, “shall perish without the law.” [27]

In fact, the infidels who are not lost because of the sin of incredulity, that is, by the sin of not having believed in Christ about whom they never knew anything, are lost by their other sins, the remission of which cannot be given to anyone without the true faith. Those infidels who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity and are faithful in obeying the voice of their conscience, Saint Thomas Aquinas says: “If anyone was brought up in the wilderness or among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of nature to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe that God, by an inward inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as He sent Peter to Cornelius.”

Further Fr. Michael Müller, C.SS.R in dealing with the issue states: “A Mohammedan is taught by his conscience that it would be a crime to believe in Jesus Christ, and not believe in Mahomet; will this impious conscience save him? The Scripture assures us that ‘there is no other name given to men under heaven by which we can be saved,’ but the name of Jesus only; and ‘he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remaineth on him.” [28]

This should not surprise us since “what can be more contrary to reason than to be an infidel and not care to be under the sentence of eternal damnation” [29] Yes it is wholly against reason to place our faith in the testimony of a deceiver and murder as Mohammed manifested himself to have been. For this reason St. Thomas says “those who place faith in his (Mohammed’s) words believe foolishly” [30]

Without the faith they can’t be saved. Our Lord Jesus Christ is not optional.

Attendance at Islamic and Non-Catholic Worship

The abomination, which the Church has had from the very beginning for association of Catholics in the worship of Non Catholics [31], is evident from the words of St. John “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, or say to him Welcome” - II John 1:10

Suarez (one of the greatest amongst the Jesuits theologians) affirms that the reason the Apostle gives for this prohibition is verified in religious communication especially, because he, who unites himself with those outside the Church in religious worship, communicates in their wicked works. [32]

A Catholic who communicates formally in the worship of Non Catholics sins grievously against the virtue of Religion, as a false exercise of it. [33] For this reason “One is never allowed to cooperate formally in something which is intrinsically wrong objectively.” [34]

St. Augustine, the great Champion of Catholic orthodoxy, reproves both actual and simulated communication in non-Catholic worship. In a letter to St. Jerome he states that one who observes the rites of Jews, or Gentiles, not only truly, but even fictitiously, has fallen into the abyss of the devil. [35]

The mind of the Church on this point was enshrined in old Code of Canon Law (1917), which stated that: “ It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics.” [36]

All subsequent moral theology works have simply reiterated the same point. [37]

Pius XI in dealing with this issue that was so vehement in his own day had only the following to say “Certainly such movements as these cannot gain the approval of Catholics. They are founded upon the false opinions of those who say that, since all religions equally unfold and signify- though not in the same way - the native, inborn feeling in us all through which we are borne toward God and humbly recognize His rule, therefore, all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy. The followers of this theory are not only deceived and mistaken, but since they repudiate the true religion by attacking it in its very essence, they move step by step toward naturalism and atheism. Hence it clearly follows that anyone who gives assent to such theories and undertakings utterly abandons divinely revealed religion. “ [38]

The Church can never lawfully grant to Catholics permission to participate formally in non-Catholic worship. In dealing those who claim they have been given ecclesiastical permission to participate in the ceremonial rites of non Catholics Fr. Michael Muller in his well known work, “God the Teacher of Man Kind” aptly answers the question by stating “Neither any priest nor bishop, nay, not even the Pope, can give you permission to violate any of the commandments.” [39]

It has been rashly stated the Mohammedans and other infidels adore the same God “together with us” [40] yet not only is this undoubtibly offensive to Catholic doctrine (as we have shown above) but it shows forth an ignorance of Islamic notion of God and their absurd doctrines. Mohammedans don’t pray to their god, together with us, they pray to their false god against us! The Quran is explicit on this point as it openly states: “The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before, may Allah destroy them, how they have turned away.” [41]

Ultimately we can do no better than assume to ourselves the advice of the Apostle of the Gentiles (St. Paul) himself “Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?” - II Cor. 6: 14-18.

Foot Notes:

1Pope Gregory XVI - Summo Jugiter Studio, May 27, 1832

2. Sura iv. 171

3. Sura xxiii. 91

4. Sura iv, 157 and Sura v. 78.

5. St. Alphonsus de Liguori, History of Heresies, Vol. 1., ch. vii., art. 1.

6. Lumen Gentium, 16. Vatican Council II.,

7. - Roberti-Palazzini, Dizionario di teologia morale, p.813. Cf. Also A Compendium of St. Thomas’s Theology, by Fr. E. O’ Donnell, Vol. II, Dublin 1859, Pg. 21

8a.St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, VIII:2

8b. Pascendi, Sept. 8, 1907,

9. Roberti-Palazzini, Dizionario di teologia morale, p.813.

10. Dizionario de teologia morale, p.805.

11. Dizionario de teologia morale, p.805.

11a. The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, Pope St. Pius X, 1907 “In answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote: ‘ It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned.’ - The reason for this is as we previously mention. The Church judges the Objective facts and not the subjective dispositions of Men!

12. Lefebvre; Open Letter to Confused Catholics, Fowler Wright Books Ltd., Herefordshire, England, 1986, p. 106.

13. Oath Against Modernism

14. This dogma has been affirmed many times over by the Churches Magesterium. It has been affirmed by Pope Innocent III (DS423), The IV Lateran Council (DS 430), Pope Boniface VIII (DS 468), The Council of Florence (DS 714), Pius IX (DS1647), Pope Clement VI (DS 5706), The Council of Trent (DS 861).

15a. THE FAITH OF CATHOLICS, The Introduction, by Frs. Joseph Berington and John Kirk, rev. Fr. James Waterworth, San Marino, CA: Victory Publications, 1985.

15b. Satis Cognitum, June 19, 1896

15c. Lux et Veritas, December 25, 1931.

16a. Fr. D. I. Lanslot, Catholic Theology, St. Louise, M O, 1911, Pg. 486.

16b. Fr. E. O’Donnell, A Compendium of St. Thomas’s Theology, Dublin 1859, Volume II, Pg. 113, Cf. Summa Theologica, II-II, QQ. 92-96.

16c. Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 48.

16d. Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 14.

16e. Summa Theologica II-II, q. 81, Art. 1

16f. Suarez, Opera Omnia, Tom XIII, pg. 7

17a. Our Apostolic Mandate

17b. Apud. Theod., lib. 4, Hist. Eccl., c. xvii.

18. Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

19. Pope Leo XIII, Praeclara Gratulationis., June 20, 1894

20. St. Canisius Catholic Cate-chism, Dillingen, 1560, Question no. 1

21. St. Peter Mavimenus, The Roman Martyrology for February 21

22. “National Catholic Register,” 1974

23. St. Alphonsus de Liguori, Victories of the Martyrs, ch. LIII.

23a. Saint Francis of Assisi, A biography, by Omer Englebert, 1979, Pg. 178-9

24. St. John Mary Vianney . John Mary: SPIRIT OF THE CURE D’ARS, Bowden, 1864

25. Acerbo Nimis, April 15, 1905

26. Summa Theologica II - II q. 10, Art. 3

27. Romans 2:12. Cf. Also Summa Theologica, II-II, Q. 11, Art. 1.

28. The Catholic Dogma, “Out of the Church there is positively no Salvation”, BENZIGER BROTHERS, New York, 1888,

29. Fr. Michael Muller, Catholic Doctrine, preface, pg. 16

30. Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 16, Art. 4.

31. Any documentation given in these regards are those which deal with only non Catholic worship in general, since there are volumes of condemnations both from antiquity and modern authorities on the communication of worship with heretics, who while retaining the name of Christian have departed from the faith of Christ. Since we are dealing with Non Catholics we limit ourselves to some of the authorities on this point.

32. Opera Omnia, Tom. XXIV, p. 708

33. Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 48.

34. Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 51

35. Epistola LXXXII, ad Hieronymum, Cap. II, n.18

36. Canon 1258

37. Moral Theology, A Complete Cource, by John A. Mchugh and Charles J. Callan, New York, 1929, Vol. I. n. 964, Pg. 376

38. Mortalium Animos

39. God the teacher of Mankind, New York, 1881, Pg. 331

40. Lumen Gentium, 16. Vatican Council II.

41. Quran, Book IX, par. 30, Cf. Sura 9:28, 5:17, 47:4, 5:62

- CATHOLIC APOLOGETICS -

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/worship.htm

Great info, Saved away for a latter date, one that I am sure is coming.

“Vatican II documents contradict themselves in many places. That just makes these documents all the more nonsensical. Doctrine is misunderstood if it is not presented with clarity and consistency, as we have witnessed in abundance since the disaster of Vatican II.”

Wow! I had no idea that I was posting to some great theologian and scholar who knows more than the Church leaders.
Perhaps you ought to volunteer to go to the Vatican and explain all this to them so that THEY will understand as well as you just how nonsensical the documents are.

Wow! I had no idea that I was posting to some great theologian and scholar who knows more than the Church leaders.

There is many an illiterate peasant tending sheep on the side of a mountain who "knows more" than the Vatican II proponents. The stated aim of Vatican II was to "open a window to the world and let the fresh air in." Unfortunately, the "fresh air" of the world is polluted with the smoke of Hell.

Previous generations of Catholics had no problem understanding this simple reality. Recent generations of Catholics have relearned this hard lesson. Once the hipster baby boomer generation passes, the human institutions of the Church will be restored.

How sad that you don’t understand that the Church has changed nothing. She has created NO new teaching. She has simply elaborated and clarified teachings under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

In the introduction to every Catechism there is an Apostolic Constitution called Fidei Depositum. Here is a part of that from Blessed Pope John Paul II that states in section three:

3. The Doctrinal Value of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!

The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Luke 22:32 as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith. Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Ephesians 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Peter 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine.

At the conclusion of this document presenting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I beseech the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Incarnate Word and Mother of the Church, to support with her powerful intercession the catechetical work of the entire Church on every level, at this time when she is called to a new effort of evangelization. May the light of the true faith free humanity from the ignorance and slavery of sin in order to lead it to the only freedom worthy of the name (cf. John 8:32): that of life in Jesus Christ under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, here below and in the Kingdom of heaven, in the fullness of the blessed vision of God face to face (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:12; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8)!

Given 11 October 1992, the thirtieth anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate.

Joannes Paulus II

To think that you know better than the Church is a trap into which you have fallen and it is clear what type of spirits have set this trap.

“If we’re not able to convince them altogether of this false law, then we’ll give them an unbalanced view of the real law, that is, we’ll encourage them to act like Pharisees of old by majoring in minors, by obeying lesser items of the law while ignoring the weightier matters. This is part of the strategy of keeping them unbalanced and unparalyzed.” The Screwtape Letters, C. S. Lewis [Matt. 23:23-27]

You are in my prayers.

How sad that you don’t understand that the Church has changed nothing. She has created NO new teaching. She has simply elaborated and clarified teachings under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

The Church is perfect and cannot change but many of her human institutions are fraudulently pretending that she has changed. For instance, Pope Paul 6 pressured Spain and several other countries into giving up official status as a confessional Catholic states. Paul 6 made fraudulent claims that Vatican II had transformed doctrine such that the Church no longer promotes the confessional Catholic state, and now forbids the Catholic state. Paul 6's claims were certainly false since the confessional Catholic state is permanently enshrined within infallible Church doctrine.

Today, mosques are going up all over Spain (and the rest of once-Catholic Europe). It would appear that the days of Spanish Catholic civilization are over unless Spaniards are able to see through the fraud perpetrated upon them by Paul 6.

In the introduction to every Catechism there is an Apostolic Constitution called Fidei Depositum. Here is a part of that from Blessed Pope John Paul II

What is your point? Are you saying that the CCC is infallible? The CCC has already been revised for error several times since publication.

To think that you know better than the Church is a trap into which you have fallen and it is clear what type of spirits have set this trap.

I have quoted to you what the Church teaches. Dispute that if you dare, but please stop falsely accusing me of knowing "better than the Church."

Actually, I will simply leave you in God’s hands. Let’s strive for our own personal holiness above all.